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Post by pianoman on Dec 5, 2008 9:14:32 GMT -5
Dan Dan Dan, Don't make me come out there, LOL
He is just expressing his opinion and I am going against him on this as I have read the physical things that happen in crucifixion.
They nail the hands out and the feet so that the body starts to slump.
as the body slumps the lungs fill with fluid.
the victim has to push up with the legs to get air and attempt to remove the fluid.
as the weakness from the extreme pain doesn't allow the victim to breath, they are soon just gasping with lungs filling with fluid.
eventually they can no longer breathe.
NOW: remember Jesus had a crown of thorns so he couldn't rest his head back like the others. Also he had been whipped, so his back was most likely raw, and he had been up for 36 hours with no food, water, or any rest. I can't imagine his torn flesh on his back against that cross.
I apologize for the graphic details, but maybe we all need to read it.
That sounds like one of the worst ways to die. I know of others like "death of a thousand cuts".
It all is very agonizing and I don't want to see any one die any way.
Rational, I am sure you are not suggesting that my description is in accurate or a comfy way to die. Any death , due to torture, is ugly. So lets leave that alone.
Peace to all, Pianoman
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ddowdy
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by ddowdy on Dec 5, 2008 9:46:36 GMT -5
I was joking bro. You know...little irony for "why the cruelty"?
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Post by Gene on Dec 5, 2008 12:07:58 GMT -5
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ddowdy
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by ddowdy on Dec 5, 2008 14:33:05 GMT -5
Gene Nelson says:
"Gotta love Christians!"
Funny...rather large group. Be quite an undertaking for you. Best of luck to you though, it is actually quite refreshing to see someone setting such ambitious goals.
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Post by rational on Dec 5, 2008 16:16:56 GMT -5
I don't know, rational, but I'm sure I can't quite comprehend certain types of pain until I have been in that situation...and I'm sure it's the same for many others. Are YOU really! saying that you feel you can fully comprehend what a crucifixion would feel like??? If you are, then that's your right...but I would definitely disagree with you. I was addressing the comprehension of the act of crucifixion. But you are correct. Both pain and pleasure are elusive. Many claim that neither can be remembered. You can remember the circumstances and your reactions but the there is no memory of the sensation of the pain/pleasure. That would, I think, mean you were experiencing the pain/pleasure again. Perhaps just to make people think about what they believe. Or just to think. Have you ever considered exactly what remembering pain would involve?
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Post by rational on Dec 5, 2008 16:21:02 GMT -5
Rational, I am sure you are not suggesting that my description is in accurate or a comfy way to die. Any death , due to torture, is ugly. So lets leave that alone. No, I was not making any suggestion. I was questioning why one person's death is considered the "ultimate sacrifice" when it is not in any way unique. Thousands died on the cross.
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ddowdy
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Post by ddowdy on Dec 5, 2008 16:38:32 GMT -5
Failure to understand the unique circumstances of Christ's death as well as, the level of sacrifice reflected in those circumstances constitutes additional evidence either of rat's ignorance and stupidity or of his continued efforts to be the voice of bigotry and antagonism on this board.
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Post by rational on Dec 9, 2008 12:29:47 GMT -5
Failure to understand the unique circumstances of Christ's death as well as, the level of sacrifice reflected in those circumstances constitutes additional evidence either of rat's ignorance and stupidity or of his continued efforts to be the voice of bigotry and antagonism on this board. I just posed a question. One which you, so far, have not answered. When you say unique do you just mean the paranormal circumstances? How was the sacrifice unlike the other thousands who were tortured and died as a result of crucification? Was it that Jesus knew this was only a short term of suffering and then he would be in paradise?
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ddowdy
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by ddowdy on Dec 9, 2008 13:35:21 GMT -5
I just posed a question. One which you, so far, have not answered.
When you say unique do you just mean the paranormal circumstances?
How was the sacrifice unlike the other thousands who were tortured and died as a result of crucification?
Was it that Jesus knew this was only a short term of suffering and then he would be in paradise?
There are a host of unique circumstances. For me they include the fact that Jesus who (according to most accounts) was a figure of some significant popularity and mass appeal suffered betrayals not only from someone close to him (Judas Iscariot) but also from his own people. I also believe that Jesus could have escaped his death sentence had he desired yet, believing in his destiny he made no effort or attempt to escape his crucifixion. And then there are the circumstances which you label paranormal. The only apparent witnesses to some of the events which occurred reported observing and experiencing events and occurrences which you would label "paranormal". I choose to believe them and you do not.
Before you ask, I can't prove anything related to these supernatural occurrences and perhaps it is (on my part at least) a desire to believe as much as, or more, the requisite faith which I hope I can grow and develop.
And what about God's sacrifice? An all powerful, omniscient being who rules over every action and event in this world sacrificing the earthly incarnation of his one and only son to a horrible, painful, tortuous, lingering death in order that mankind have the opportunity for salvation and eternal life. Truly it is a wonderful, inspiring story and one that I hope, pray and yes...believe is true
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Post by rational on Dec 9, 2008 14:27:18 GMT -5
There are a host of unique circumstances. For me they include the fact that Jesus who (according to most accounts) was a figure of some significant popularity and mass appeal suffered betrayals not only from someone close to him (Judas Iscariot) but also from his own people. There are some who think the betrayal by Judas Iscariot was not so much a betrayal as part of a plan. If by "his own people" you mean the jews, it is to be expected. He did not fulfill the prophecy of the messiah that they had been looking for. No, in fact it would seem that he brought it on himself. Could iot have been a PR stunt that went bad? That would have been the resurrection. It would be more believable had their stories agreed. And that is what faith is all about. Well, that is an odd thing in itself. What was the reason to sacrifice, depending on your flavor of christianity, his son or his alter-ego? How does allowing someone to die help other people? Was this the only option that came up? Many people suffered a horrible death. Some could have avoided death by turning in their comrades. Buddhist monks burned themselves to death to make a statement for the good of their fellow man. They could have walked away but didn't. How is that not the ultimate sacrifice? They did so without being part of an omnipotent being that was assured the suffering would be short. I believe something like that might have happened. After all, the Romans did this to 10,000s of people. Jesus certainly could have been one of them. It is a difficult concept to grasp - the slaughter of animals, or men, to please some omnipotent being who supposedly loves his creations.
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ddowdy
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Post by ddowdy on Dec 9, 2008 20:23:55 GMT -5
There are a host of unique circumstances. For me they include the fact that Jesus who (according to most accounts) was a figure of some significant popularity and mass appeal suffered betrayals not only from someone close to him (Judas Iscariot) but also from his own people. "There are some who think the betrayal by Judas Iscariot was not so much a betrayal as part of a plan. If by "his own people" you mean the jews, it is to be expected. He did not fulfill the prophecy of the messiah that they had been looking for."
I have never heard of anyone who claimed the betrayal of Jesus by Judas Iscariot was part of some sort of "plan". Enlighten me (us) please. By "his own people" I do mean the jews who chose to let a criminal go free rather than Jesus who, by all accounts, was a popular figure already renowned for his teachings, healings and performance of other miracles. The choice of the jewish people to have Jesus executed seems to have been a betrayal and, something difficult to comprehend, look at the reaction of Pontius Pilate who was apparently dismayed at having to execute Jesus.
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I also believe that Jesus could have escaped his death sentence had he desired yet, believing in his destiny he made no effort or attempt to escape his crucifixion. "No, in fact it would seem that he brought it on himself. Could iot have been a PR stunt that went bad?"
I suppose it could have been. I really don't know enough about it to say. It seems a rather remote possiblity given what I have read about Jesus who seems to have been a man of exceptional character and not really the sort who might resort to a "PR stunt".
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And then there are the circumstances which you label paranormal.
"That would have been the resurrection."
Yes and some of the events surrounding it.
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The only apparent witnesses to some of the events which occurred reported observing and experiencing events and occurrences which you would label "paranormal". I choose to believe them and you do not. "It would be more believable had their stories agreed."
I am not really aware of any appreciable differences in the eyewitness accounts of these events. Still, even if there are differences...groups of eyewitnesses to such things as minor traffic accidents or bar fights, more often than not fail to relate their matching observations of those occurences. One can only imagine the effect something like a resurrection from the dead might have upon some people's capacity to accurately relate their observations.
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Before you ask, I can't prove anything related to these supernatural occurrences and perhaps it is (on my part at least) a desire to believe as much as, or more, the requisite faith which I hope I can grow and develop. "And that is what faith is all about."
You are correct and I am lacking. I hope to do better though.
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And what about God's sacrifice? An all powerful, omniscient being who rules over every action and event in this world sacrificing the earthly incarnation of his one and only son to a horrible, painful, tortuous, lingering death in order that mankind have the opportunity for salvation and eternal life.
"Well, that is an odd thing in itself. What was the reason to sacrifice, depending on your flavor of christianity, his son or his alter-ego? How does allowing someone to die help other people? Was this the only option that came up?"
The reason given is to atone for the sins of mankind and to purchase with Christ's blood and life, salvation and eternal life for whomever accepts him as God's son and their Lord and Savior. The sacrifice of something as precious and highly valued as a son is a theme which is also presented in the Old Testament of the Bible. "Many people suffered a horrible death. Some could have avoided death by turning in their comrades. Buddhist monks burned themselves to death to make a statement for the good of their fellow man. They could have walked away but didn't. How is that not the ultimate sacrifice? They did so without being part of an omnipotent being that was assured the suffering would be short."
I have seen a self-immolation in Thailand. It was indeed a horrible thing to witness although the victim actually seemed rather composed given the circumstances. Actually, I don't question the level of a sacrifice of that magnitude. What is interesting about the Buddhist monks is that like Christians they also believe that the termination of their earthly existence is not the absolute end of their existence. Perhaps having absolute faith in that premise allows one to face death with less trepidation. I don't really know though...just an assumption.
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Truly it is a wonderful, inspiring story and one that I hope, pray and yes...believe is true. "I believe something like that might have happened. After all, the Romans did this to 10,000s of people. Jesus certainly could have been one of them."
I agree.
"It is a difficult concept to grasp - the slaughter of animals, or men, to please some omnipotent being who supposedly loves his creations."
Again, I agree. It is difficult for me also yet, when one considers it in a scriptural context, it seems consistent because blood, mayhem and sacrifice are all consistently presented in the Bible. Jesus' story though is the ultimate sacrifice because He is God's only son and because he died for the sins of all men.
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Post by rational on Dec 10, 2008 0:15:04 GMT -5
There are a host of theories. The fact that Jesus told Judas to go and do what he was to do indicates that either Jesus was not just a man as claimed or that he and Judas had worked out the plan before hand. There is a Gospel of Judas that has Judas acting on Jesus' behalf. Of course, there is not universal acceptance of this gospel since it was rejected by those who created the canon of the NT. In the translation the word betrayal is thought by scholars to be incorrect and that the phrase "handing over" should have been used. He claimed to be the messiah but the jews were looking for someone with the following traits: * The Sanhedrin will be re-established * Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. * The whole world will worship the One God of Israel * He will be descended from King David via King Solomon * The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" * Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership * Knowledge of God will fill the world * He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations * All Israelites will be returned to their homeland * Death will be swallowed up forever * There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease * All of the dead will rise again * The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness * He will be a messenger of peace * Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did Israel * For My House shall be called a house of prayer for all nations * The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance * The ruined cities of Israel will be restored * Weapons of war will be destroyed * The Temple will be rebuilt resuming many of the suspended mitzvot * He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together * Jews will know the Torah without Study * He will give you all the desires of your heart * He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful Jesus didn't measure up so he, to the jewish leadership, was just another one of many who claimed to be the messiah. He was creating problems and they took action to eliminate him. Not all that uncommon for the time. Remember - thieves were put to death as well. PR might have been a bad choice of a phrase. Sometimes movements might need to be jump-started. Being arrested is not an unknown way to bring attention to one's self and movement. Perhaps this just went off in the wrong direction. This then brings to question the accuracy of all of the eye witness accounts in the bible. Certainly seeing people raised from the dead, pigs being possessed, lepers being cured would all have an effect on the observers. Add that to the fact that eye witnesses are known to be very unreliable and the fact that the stories were passed down over a period of perhaps 50-60 years and you have the accuracy of a "gossip" circle. How does killing someone atone for other's sins? But the son of an omnipotent being. The son who, depending on your particular flavor of christianity, was part of god who was created/sent to earth as an object lesson. Where is the sacrifice? Back to the original - is the sacrificial death of any only son the ultimate sacrifice? And died for the sins of all men? What sins? God said: (Deuteronomy 24:16) - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin." So what sins?
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Post by ariandgabe on Dec 11, 2008 11:10:45 GMT -5
ANTS Phylogenetic analysis suggests that ants arose in the mid-Cretaceous period about 110 to 130 million years ago. After the rise of flowering plants about 100 million years ago, they diversified and assumed ecological dominance around 60 million years ago. In 1966, E. O. Wilson and his colleagues identified the fossil remains of an ant (Sphecomyrma freyi) that lived in the Cretaceous period. The specimen, trapped in amber dating back to more than 80 million years ago has features of both ants and wasps
My friend Rational, as you read the above quote about ANTS, I can’t stop wondering if you would put up a fight or not as to its accuracy? As I have pointed out to you in other posts that how my brother used to take junk he found in our back yard and put it in caves, or simply told archeologists coming around paying good money for artifacts that, he found them in those caves just so he could get more money. Also admitting the lies archeologists and paleontologists make to get grants should throw a wrench in the fan as to the accuracy of anything found anywhere. And yet, you base your entire faith on those theories and are content as to its accuracy, and you don’t have even the remotest guilt (knowing the possibility of errors) in teaching out of books made by many of these imposters. If they say that ‘after the rise of flowering plants about 100 million years ago, ants diversified and assumed ecological dominance around 60 million years ago,’ then that is what it is. Who is a Christian to question science? (Especially when I told you about the things my brother (and many others) did for money) But the truth is: ‘who is science to question the Bible?’ If the things written in there are scientific impossibilities, then so be it.
What’s the difference between ‘scientific theories’ and ‘miracles’? Why is it that the theories you accept, no matter how ridiculous it sounds, (Big Bang, the creator of time, which is the manufacturer of everything) or what questionable source it arrived from (The pigs jawbone answering the missing link theory), but the Biblical stories of miracles you oppose with all your might and spend endless hours bashing them?
You see my friend, you act as your own ‘god’, and thus you cannot bear to have the true God rule over you. Satan had the same problem until it was remedied for him. Now if ‘he’ can’t be God, then he will try to make sure that none of us can become the ‘Children of God’. This is what I see you doing also Rational, since you will not heed and accept the teachings of the Bible, then you will try like hell that NO ONE else CAN either.
O.K., then let’s be Rational about this; for someone who doesn’t believe in God, how in the world do you expect to understand about sacrifice, which is a show of reverence and gratitude towards God? And yet, look at the hypocrisy in this. Look at the ‘sacrifice’ paleontologists and scientists offer in digging up artifacts, laboring endless hours on the hot sun sometimes not eating, going thirsty, and I’m sure even ‘shedding blood’ when they bruise themselves, and then manufacturing and making testing equipment that they calibrate to fit their theories as to how old those bones that they found are. Or the millions and millions of dollars spent on building accelerators to find even a little ‘blip’ they can name; ‘Quark’?
KNOWING how many lies have been concocted by scientists over the years, how can you question the integrity of the writers of the Bible? Are you being fair? Are you spending the same amount of time posting your doubts about the THEORY of evolution as you are to instilling doubt into new believers of the Bible? See the ONESIDED-ness to this?
Rational, you will never be able to comprehend the Bible on YOUR terms, NEVER. But I’m still praying that you will one day study it using the instructions within its pages to understand it, and NOT base it on your understanding of evolution which you already accepted as FACT.
As for the rest of the Believers here, who have accepted the simple logic of: ‘If there is a creation, then there must be a Creator’,
SACRIFICE
Origin. The beginnings of sacrifice are found in the primitive ages of man and among all the nations of antiquity. Cain and Abel offered sacrifices to God (Gen 4:3-4)-Cain "of the fruit of the ground" and Abel "of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions." Noah expressed his gratitude for deliverance from the Flood by presenting burnt offerings unto the Lord (8:20). The patriarchs were in the habit of building altars and offering sacrifices on them, calling upon God at the places where He had revealed Himself to them (12:7; 13:4; 26:25; 31:54; 33:20; 35:7; 46:1). "Indeed, to sacrifice seems as natural to man as to pray; the one indicates what he feels about himself, the other what he feels about God. The one means a felt need of propitiation, the other a felt sense of dependence" (Edersheim, The Temple, p. 81).
Fundamental Idea. The fundamental idea of sacrifices may be gathered partly from their designation, partly from their nature. Sacrifices do not appear to have been instituted at first by divine command; though they must not, on that account, be looked upon as human inventions. They are spontaneous expressions of reverence and gratitude that man feels toward God. But we must not fail to note that with gratitude and reverence there was also the thought of securing a continuance of God's favor and mercy. Neither must we lose sight of their expressing the idea of propitiation and substitution. Nor can we afford to forget that in all ages blood has been the symbol of life and its shedding the symbol of the offering of one's life. Abundant testimony is given of this in The Blood Covenant, by H. C. Trumbull. He says that in the earliest recorded sacrifice "the narrative shows Abel lovingly and trustfully reaching out toward God with substitute blood, in order to be in covenant oneness with God; while Cain merely proffers a gift from his earthly possessions. Abel so trusts God that he gives himself to him. Cain defers to God sufficiently to make a present to him. The one shows unbounded faith; the other shows a measure of affectionate reverence" (p. 211).
Again in the sacrifice of Noah we have an expression not only of gratitude and reverence but of a desire for further communications of divine grace. This seems to be implied in the answer given by the Lord to Noah, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man" (Gen 8:21). In the presentation of the best of his possessions the worshiper symbolized the giving of himself, his life, his aims, to God. "The most direct surrender of himself that a man can make to God is realized in prayer, an act in which the soul merges itself in Him from whom it came, in which the spirit unites itself with its God.
Now that which corresponds to this inward surrender, as being an outward, visible, tangible verification of it, is sacrifice, which, on this account, has been called 'embodied prayer.'" In the "burnt offerings" of Job for his children (Job 1:5) and for his three friends (42:8), the idea of expiation is distinctly set forth; for in the first instance the influencing thought with Job was, "Perhaps my sons have sinned"; and in the latter God said to Job's friends, "My servant Job will pray for you. For I will accept him. . . ."
(from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (c) 1988.)
Ps 40:6 6 Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; My ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require. NKJV
Mark 12:33 33 And man must love God with all his heart and with all his mind and with all his strength; and he must love his neighbor as he loves himself. It is more important to obey these two commandments than to offer on the altar animals and other sacrifices to God." TEV
So you see, man started the sacrifices, God accepted them as long as they were from the heart, then man turned it into a duty, where it wasn’t a 'gift' to God anymore but a commandment, a duty that said: "You see what I'm doing for you God? Look, I'm giving you things, am I not good? which revealed mans heart, which was full of deception and evil. (just like the scene in the Temple that Jesus said has become a den-of thief’s.)
I hope this helps.
In Jesus name: Odon
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Post by ariandgabe on Dec 11, 2008 15:01:17 GMT -5
Rational: There are a host of theories. The fact that Jesus told Judas to go and do what he was to do indicates that either Jesus was not just a man as claimed or that he and Judas had worked out the plan before hand. There is a Gospel of Judas that has Judas acting on Jesus' behalf. Of course, there is not universal acceptance of this gospel since it was rejected by those who created the canon of the NT. In the translation the word betrayal is thought by scholars to be incorrect and that the phrase "handing over" should have been used.
O.K. here is the difference between one writing being accepted and the other NOT; The Books in the Bible are NOT just recollections of different people of different events, but in them are contained the whole message on this ‘transition’ from the physical to the spiritual realm. When I read from one of those ‘Red Sea Scrolls’ or books like you mentioned; ‘Gospel of Judas’, it is easy for me (or any true-Believer) to see the difference between them and the ‘Little Books (the Bible)’. The ‘message’ is wrong.
Now I’m beginning to truly understand what the Lord meant when He said:
Matt 11:25-30 … "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
This is why I keep telling you Rational that you have a huge obstacle in front of you that keeps you from understanding the Bible. Everyone has at least one, and until we overcome that, the Bible is just another book for us. Yours is the ‘wisdom of men’, worldly wisdom. For another it’s ‘worldly riches’, for another it’s partying, womanizing, gangs/drugs, or simply too much hate. ;
Matt 19:22 “… But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.”
This is why you wonder why the ‘Gospel of Judas’ would not be joyfully accepted by Christians, when it could be another book claiming that Jesus was here and add to the witnesses which should only make the story more believable.
Was all that Jesus did planned ahead of time? Of course it was. Thousands of years before He came, God revealed it to Prophets who wrote down everything that will happen when He comes. THIS is what makes so many Christians ‘believers’, because of the ‘fulfillment’ of the prophecies. Why else would you want to become a Christian, so you could be a fan of a good book?
Read this: 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." NKJV
Now ask yourself; why would I want to ‘take Jesus yoke’ upon myself? (I like the Today’s English Version better)
Matt 11:28-30 28 "Come to me, all of you who are tired from carrying heavy loads, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke and put it on you, and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in spirit; and you will find rest. 30 For the yoke I will give you is easy, and the load I will put on you is light." TEV
Well, first you have to realize and FEEL that you are carrying heavy loads, and that you are tired from it. Otherwise why would you even bother with the Bible or try to find God?
The reasons I read and try to follow Gods Word:
* I’m tired of baring this heavy burden
* I believe that there is more to life then this here I see. No matter if I live a good life now, or that I suffer in pain, I am never satisfied. When I see others suffering in pain, when I see all this war, the hunger and famine, the diseases that are killing millions that too makes me want to get out of here.
* I see those that portray a good life, they have all the fame, the money, the toys, the beautiful girls, anything and everything money could buy, and they are never satisfied. They continuously lie to themselves and others, getting face-lifts, tit-lifts, tummy tucks, hair implants and all that stuff to ‘pretend’ that they are happy. They are terrified to get old, and yet it comes upon them like a freight train. They all seek for this ONE thing: “Eternal Life!” and yet it eludes them. They see it passing away, many of their friends and loved ones also dying and no matter how much money they have, they cannot buy this unknown disease called aging.
But HERE is what is crazy, that here is a book that offers ETERNAL LIFE and many just pass it by. Well I for one am NOT letting it pass me by.
Look at the burdens I give up: Adultery and all sorts of sexual perversion is the bag, but look what’s inside: much anguish and pain, divorce, custody battles, separation from your loving children, AIDS and all kinds of other diseases, hate and animosity between families, loneliness, just to name a few.
But if I lay down that bag and give up this sexual perversion (I still have problem of beautiful girls catching my eyes, which I noticed as I got older that I would stare at them with my belly sticking out, balding head, I realized how I must look to them if they should catch me looking, and I was sickened. I don’t want them, but I realized that even looking it gave me pleasure. This too slowly I lay down, knowing that adultery starts in the heart. Why play with fire?)
I want what the Bible offers me, it all sounds real good. And not only that, but it says that I get to keep it forever. I get to be free from pain and suffering, (relief that is not temporary like the pain-meds, nor do I have to worry about running out) no more sorrow but a life of joy and peace in a surrounding of PURE LOVE. Now this I just got to see. I have not known love from my own parents, nor my own brothers and sister, (not until I was like 27 which I believe was pity for knowing what they did to me) so to me when I heard that ‘Lazarus’ was in Abrahams bosom, cuddled and loved like a little child, I sure would like to feel that for once, not as a ‘pay-off for spying on my brothers’ but out of real love.
* The realization that there will be a penalty for all the evil I have done, which will be laid out before me on that DAY, and I will have to give account of it, every last sin, every evil word, every mean action against my fellow man
Rev 3:10 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. NKJV
Rev 21:1-5 21:1 The New Heaven and the New Earth Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The first heaven and the first earth disappeared, and the sea vanished. 2 And I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared and ready, like a bride dressed to meet her husband. 3 I heard a loud voice speaking from the throne: "Now God's home is with mankind! He will live with them, and they shall be his people. God himself will be with them, and he will be their God. 4 He will wipe away all tears from their eyes. There will be no more death, no more grief or crying or pain. The old things have disappeared."
5 Then the one who sits on the throne said, "And now I make all things new!" TEV
The Kingdom starts here, in our hearts, souls and minds. With a change of heart, all sins confessed and forsaken (hills brought low and valleys filled up), we get baptized and are IN, my dear friends, in His glorious kingdom. We see it from the inside, know it with the joy filling our hearts and we proclaim it to everyone, because it is as real to us as this life which is passing away in front of our eyes.
THI IS what the Jews (and you my dear friend Rational) cannot see. Jesus DID fulfill almost every one of the things you mentioned that the Jews were waiting to be fulfilled (the FEW others are only a little time away). The Jews were thinking with their physical minds and just could not see what was to come. Just as most of Christianity today thinks that the kingdom is COMING instead of being here; ‘in our hearts’.
Jesus IS the KING OF KINGS, and the King of the Jews, even the sign above his crucified head proclaimed that, but what the Jews did not Want to understand is that Jesus was not only the KING, but the DOOR to the Kingdom also.
It is when they realized what they would have to do to ENTER that kingdom, that they refused to believe HIM. What, humble ourselves before our enemies, NEVER. Come, let’s KILL this guy, we are full of sin and evil, and we are never going to lay these burdens down for no humble, do-gooder who asks us to LOVE our enemies.
They wanted to KILL their enemies, not LOVE them. They were so far from God that even though they saw all the miracles Jesus did, they could not believe. But if you look at those who had a repented heart, they saw Jesus as their Lord and Savior. They were FREED from the bondage of sin, even though they were still in this physical body. Their faith was in what is TO COME and NOT what is here.
And when Jesus comes back, in a twinkling of the eye, when this physical disappears and THAT which is REAL appears, well see it with those eternal eyes:
1 Cor 15:50-58 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord. NKJV
He claimed to be the messiah but the jews were looking for someone with the following traits:
* The Sanhedrin will be re-established * Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. * The whole world will worship the One God of Israel * He will be descended from King David via King Solomon * The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" * Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership * Knowledge of God will fill the world * He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations * All Israelites will be returned to their homeland * Death will be swallowed up forever * There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease * All of the dead will rise again * The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness * He will be a messenger of peace * Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did Israel * For My House shall be called a house of prayer for all nations * The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance * The ruined cities of Israel will be restored * Weapons of war will be destroyed * The Temple will be rebuilt resuming many of the suspended mitzvot * He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together * Jews will know the Torah without Study * He will give you all the desires of your heart * He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful
Jesus didn't measure up so he, to the jewish leadership, was just another one of many who claimed to be the messiah. He was creating problems and they took action to eliminate him. Not all that uncommon for the time. Remember - thieves were put to death as well.
If you read Revelations and all the places it talks about the things that’s coming with the New Kingdom, you will se that IT WAS/IS HIM. And with the coming ETERNAL Kingdom, through the DOOR which is Christ, we shall forever be. WE ARE IN (that is those that are in)
He was the messenger of peace, what does; ‘love your enemies supposed to mean?’ The WAR he was talking about was the WAR of the flesh against SIN.
Tell me ONE thing that Jesus did not fulfill from the above things the Jews were expecting? As far as killing Him, you say it was because He was an imposter, but if you read and could understand what you read, HE SAID ALL ALONG THAT HE MUST DIE IN ORDER FOR THAT NEW KINGDOM TO BE ABLE TO ARRIVE. He was the sacrifice, the ‘ticket’, the ‘redemption’ the ‘paper’ that says we are ‘free’, the ‘price’ paid in FULL and only with this we are able to ENTER into that ETERNAL KINGDOM. We are just waiting for this body to drop.
Into the Kingdom Odon.
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Post by rational on Dec 11, 2008 17:00:32 GMT -5
ANTS Phylogenetic analysis suggests that ants arose in the mid-Cretaceous period about 110 to 130 million years ago. After the rise of flowering plants about 100 million years ago, they diversified and assumed ecological dominance around 60 million years ago. In 1966, E. O. Wilson and his colleagues identified the fossil remains of an ant (Sphecomyrma freyi) that lived in the Cretaceous period. The specimen, trapped in amber dating back to more than 80 million years ago has features of both ants and waspsMy friend Rational, as you read the above quote about ANTS, I can’t stop wondering if you would put up a fight or not as to its accuracy? I am not familiar with the source not the subject. It does sound like it might be true but I would have to invertigate before I would know for certain. The difference is that while the lies you and your brothers told the researchers might have misled them for a time there is the concept of peer review and at that time the correction will be applied. Visit the sites regarding cold fusion and polywater. Both were presented and then, when reviewed, found to be in error and corrected. Not so with the bible. Questioning is not allowed. Proof is not required. I addressed this above. Could you provide a reference where a lie made to get grant money has been accepted as fact? Thanks in advance. Again, do you understand the concept of peer review? Anything published can be questioned and challenged. And the knowledge does not require some revelation from a paranormal being. That is what it is if no one challenges their results. How does religion fall into the questioning part? And science has every right to question the bible. What a claim is made that the earth stopped spinning, reversed its spin, stopped again, and then resumed I think someone should point out that this violates a whole host of know scientific theories and is most likely in error. And you should feel free to believe them. Personally, I like my world based on as much reality as I can find. Theories are presented to explain things that happen and miracles are proposed to explain things that can't/didn't happen. An excellent example of what happens in the world of science when something is presented in error. It gets corrected. These theories may sound strange to you because you learn about them through sources that misrepresent them and distort them in an effort to make them appear false. The Creationist sites do an excellent job of this when presenting evolution. I have never had a request from any paranormal being indicating they wanted to rule over me. If one does I would be interested in exactly why an omnipotent being would need to be worshiped by mere mortals. I mean, wouldn't that be like humans demanding that cod fish all worship us? Of that flies need to do our bidding? Listen. You believe there is a god who for whatever reason needs to be worshiped by humans. You believe this and are willing to worship this god in the way you think he wants to be worshiped. Your way, from what I have seen, is not the accepted way by all theists. Have I ever said I did not think you should worship your god as you see fit? Really, what is it to me. Just stop trying to force me to also worship your god as you see fit. If you want to believe the bible, you are free to do so. Am I free to also question what is written there? Or do you fear that the bible cannot stand up to questioning? Well, sacrifice does not always involve the paranormal. Parents sacrifice for their children. Lovers make sacrifices for each other. But you have never explained how the killing of a person somehow removes people's sins. How this one crucification is 10s of thousands was somehow unique. Usually they call this working. They get paid for it. You are again reading from creationist sites and refereeing to their "data" regarding the inaccuracy of carbon dating. If you want to debate carbon dating I would be happy to do so. Start another thread and state your premise. Just for the record, they are looking for a particle that already has a name - Higgs boson. Well, when the scientists publish bad data it is corrected. When Ponds and Fleishman published their data people looked at it, questioned it, and eventually proved it wrong and that data was discarded. The same is not true with the bible. The difference is that the premises that the theory of evolution are based on have basis in fact. I can review the research. If I were really concerned I could even go off and do independent research. I see you are taking the creationists track on emphasizing the word theory. Once you learn what a scientific theory is you will see the foolishness of your ways. I do. You do not demand any facts, data, hard evidence in support of the bible but are not satisfied using the same standard for evolution. I, on the other hand, present data when you request it and then, when I ask you for data, you deliver nothing. But I can live with the unfairness of this situation. I do understand faith. Well, that is just a cross I will have to bare. It just seems so unfair that god only tells certain people the real meaning. I wish he would tell the same thing to each of the people he reveals things to. Seems like every revelation is different. Well, let's be fair. Evolution is a theory that is, so far, supported by facts. A simple phrase for a simple solution. Are you going with the 'first cause" argument? Let's see - this was not instituted by god but should not be looked on as a human invention? So who gets the "credit"? Not all men. Having smelled burning flesh, I cannot imagine why anyone would think god would be happy if someone burns a sheep. Why would a supreme being want a virgin thrown into a volcano? This must be one of those magical meanings that god is withholding from me. I wonder if Noah sacrificed one of the unicorns by accident. What this all seems to lead to is self sacrifice. Killing yourself for god. It doesn't really explain how the death of Jesus was a sacrifice to god. It doesn't explain why someone says that Jesus died for mankind. How does his death accomplish anything other than by someone saying it did. I mean someone could say "I ate this pie for all mankind".
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Post by MsMarie on Dec 12, 2008 3:29:45 GMT -5
Rational, I am sure you are not suggesting that my description is in accurate or a comfy way to die. Any death , due to torture, is ugly. So lets leave that alone. No, I was not making any suggestion. I was questioning why one person's death is considered the "ultimate sacrifice" when it is not in any way unique. Thousands died on the cross. Christians believe that Jesus had the weight of the sins of the world on his shoulders as he achieved the atonement. This would mean that the mental anguish was even more severe than the physical as that sin temporarily separated Him from His Father. "Why have You forsaken Me?". He suffered in every way it was possible to suffer. Unique? Where does one start?
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Post by ariandgabe on Dec 12, 2008 12:14:32 GMT -5
Quote:Why is it that the theories you accept, no matter how ridiculous it sounds, (Big Bang, the creator of time, which is the manufacturer of everything) or what questionable source it arrived from (The pigs jawbone answering the missing link theory), but the Biblical stories of miracles you oppose with all your might and spend endless hours bashing them?
An excellent example of what happens in the world of science when something is presented in error. It gets corrected. These theories may sound strange to you because you learn about them through sources that misrepresent them and distort them in an effort to make them appear false. The Creationist sites do an excellent job of this when presenting evolution.
That is not true. Science runs into problems when new measuring equipment are invented, and they see that they have built so much data and info on top of their original theory, that it has become a theory in itself. As for the age of our galaxy (earth) became older and older by billions of years with the inventions of better telescopes, they realized that according to their theory our sun should have burned up Billions of years ago. So to hide this huge flaw, this obvious thorn in the side, scientist concocted matter in the sun that can never burn up. These 'unknown' theorized molecules or matters can burn on and on to fit their ever changing and aging universe.
The very thing that evolutionist say 'created us' "TIME" is their biggest enemy.
The Bible does not have that problem. The Words in it are eternal, unchanging, and yes, you can put your life on it.
I thought I did a pretty good job in explaining 'sacrifice' and yet you seem to be right back where we started, questioning the need for sacrifice.
Thank you MsMarie: Christians believe that Jesus had the weight of the sins of the world on his shoulders as he achieved the atonement. This would mean that the mental anguish was even more severe than the physical as that sin temporarily separated Him from His Father. "Why have You forsaken Me?". He suffered in every way it was possible to suffer. Unique? Where does one start?
YESSS.... but how can someone who depends only on his logical mind understand something like what you just said?
Rational does get the hint of it though, he calls it simply 'work'. That is it, my friend, it is 'laboring for the Lord'. It is the 'why' you are doing it. Science does it for selfish, self pride reasons.
It's like an ANT looking at a TV and trying to explain to his buddy ant how it got there and what makes it work. Even when the person who made it comes and tells the little ant that it would take him an eternity to figure out, he refuses to listen, and keeps spending all his time on this selfish quest to prove the creator of the TV that HE is wrong, and that eventually he (the ant) will figure out how it got there and what makes it work.
Having pity on the poor little ant, the Creator tells him again; 'I made that. Even if you do figure out one little part of it, you will never be able to recreate it, and figure the whole thing out would take you an eternity, so why not sit front of it, kick back and enjoy watching the things appearing on it? That's what I made it for. So why are you trying to recreate something that is and has been there before you were even born?
But no, the ant now gets angry at the Creator and puffed up tells his fellow ants: "Look, we don't need the Creator, we can figure out how this TV came about on our own, and when we do, WE TOO SHALL BECOME THE CREATOR."
"To start, we must eliminate our Creator from our minds, our children's minds, from every book from every document, from every school we have and teach our young ants that He never even existed. We will teach them that all these things we see, including us have come from NOTHING. It was NOT made like we make our simple furnitures at home, but all this just 'appeared' out of nowhere, then, this nothing grew to the size of a pinhead, and then it started to un-grow and something started to squeeze it more smaller until it just exploded and eventually with 'time' that this nothing created, things fell into place came to be this TV, Us, and everything that our Creator claims He made."
"But what if our holy ants point out that we are dust, the TV is dust, and the things we make is dust, so how is it that what the Creator made, which is far more complex, has come from 'nothing' assembled itself with no one looking, but the things like what uncle Honda made, that robot, was made by ants actually many ants working day and night for a hundred years was manufactured? They will say why do we believe the things 'ants' make are manufactured with painstaking work and planning, but everything the Creator made just happened by accident?"
"Look" the devious little scientist ant says; "do you actually want to give credit to this Creator? Look what he is doing to our little ants throughout the world, he is torturing them with hunger, with pain, letting our Indian ants lay them down on beds of vipers to be bit and even die, watches as our little ones die from cancer, or get ripped apart by abortion doctors, do you really want to give a creator like that CREDIT?"
"Well, .. no, i guess not." Then the little ant with the conscious asks: "But all those things you said that are happening in the world, aren't we the cause of it?"
"See, you don't THINK RATIONALLY. Think about this you little dumb ant; Can the Creator STOP all this what's happening if He really wanted to?"
"AAahh.. yess... I get it now, Everything that's bad and evil that we do, we blame it on our Creator, and whatever GOOD HE does, we just say it NEVER happened. This way we are NOT guilty of ANY sin, since we have done NOTHING wrong. Even if we do, it's HIS fault for not stopping us. Wow, we have everything thought out RATIONALLY!"
"Yes, my little apprentice, we are free from sin. For us, there is no right or wrong, good or evil, but all those things are actually what makes us who we are. We are not evil like our Creator, who judges those that do things He doesn't like. If one of our ant brothers goes and kills another's family and steals all his valuables, we don't judge him, we accept his decision, and we are sure and understand that he had his reasons of doing that. Maybe his family was hungry, or he just liked his neighbors video camera, and that with his need to have target practice, he killed them all.
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Post by rational on Dec 12, 2008 14:47:08 GMT -5
Christians believe that Jesus had the weight of the sins of the world on his shoulders as he achieved the atonement. What does this actually mean? "The weight of the sins of the world". It seems what you are saying is that jesus took the place of the goat that historically was burdened with the sins of the jewish people and then driven off into the wilderness. The goat that "lost the toss" was sacrificed to god on Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement). All of this to rid Jerusalem of its iniquities. It is the origin of the word scapegoat. The Greeks used human scapegoats who were beaten and driven out of cities to mitigate problems. Unser Roman law an innocent person was allowed to assume the penalty of another. This concept is found in many religions. For example in Hinduism: Though a man be soiled with the sins of a lifetime, let him but love me, rightly resolved, in utter devotion. I see no sinner, that man is holy. Holiness soon shall refashion his nature to peace eternal. O son of Kunti, of this be certain: the man who loves me shall not perish. The forgiveness without the need for a human sacrifice. So you are saying for some period of time Jesus was in the state of having sinned? Well, one place to start would be in the OT. The scapegoat took away the sins of the congregation. Or in the ancient city in Syria known as Ebla. This could well have been where the writers of the OT got their ideas. The difference was that the goat in Ebla wore a silver bracelet. In ancient Greece a person was actually selected and then feasted for a period of time before they were driven out of the city or over a cliff into the sea. So where would you like to start in demonstrating how unique this ritual is?
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Post by MsMarie on Dec 13, 2008 9:44:00 GMT -5
Yes, you are right about the scapegoat. Throughout the Old Testament people were educated by God through the prophets to the idea that the innocent could pay the penalty in place of the guilty. This was through the sacrifice of animals and those sacrifices were accepted, being the herald of what was to come. Thus, in the New Testament, when Jesus bore our sins, becoming the ultimate and final sacrifice for all time, then this concept was easily understood because of this preparation. This is surely unique.... not to mention who Jesus was and what his death achieved - that is what I meant by 'where do I start?' I am sure the sacrificing of animals does still go on in other religions.
Yes of course, Jesus bore the burden of our sins which is not the same thing as being a sinner. To be a sinner, you have to commit sin.
I think the point here is that you just wish to confound Christian beliefs and that is fair enough, you can try this. Being a committed Christian I can only put forward those beliefs however and of course, you can put yours forward also. Ultimately of course, neither of us will get anywhere!
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Post by rational on Dec 15, 2008 13:01:43 GMT -5
I think the point here is that you just wish to confound Christian beliefs and that is fair enough, you can try this. Being a committed Christian I can only put forward those beliefs however and of course, you can put yours forward also. Ultimately of course, neither of us will get anywhere! I just asked the reasons why people think that they can write their sins on pieces of paper, attach them to a goat, drive the goat into the wilderness, and their sins are gone. Consider the Greeks. They selected a person, fed and treated the person very well for a year then, depending on the location, drove the person out of the city with stones or hurled them off the cliffs into the sea to die. How does that remove the sins from the people? Consider Jesus. He died. How does that remove your sins? Since sins are an act against god it would seem god would be the one to forgive them. Why did a human have to be beaten and killed so god could forgive other people?
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Post by pianoman on Dec 15, 2008 16:11:36 GMT -5
Concerning the crucifixion of Jesus.
Rational, I understand why you do not see the significance. I don't have a problem with that, but that is my Savior, by faith, so allow me to feel the significance.
At age 18 I was sitting in a Federal Prison, and still to this day I do not know a specific charge. I was charged with a misdemeanor crime, and have not been able to get any court records to clear myself, but that is beside the point.
I was punished for something where I had done no wrong! I feel, by my faith, that Jesus was too.
Can you respect those of us that believe that. If not please read my post FAITH VS FACT on TMB. then reply if necessary. I mean absolutely no disrespect.
Peace to all, Pianoman
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Post by rational on Dec 15, 2008 18:28:56 GMT -5
That is not true. Science runs into problems when new measuring equipment are invented, and they see that they have built so much data and info on top of their original theory, that it has become a theory in itself. As for the age of our galaxy (earth) became older and older by billions of years with the inventions of better telescopes, they realized that according to their theory our sun should have burned up Billions of years ago. So to hide this huge flaw, this obvious thorn in the side, scientist concocted matter in the sun that can never burn up. These 'unknown' theorized molecules or matters can burn on and on to fit their ever changing and aging universe. You are again getting your information from creationists sites. It is just wrong. The sun has a life time. There are a lot of details known about how and why it works. No one has said, to my knowledge, anything about unknown molecules. Helium and hydrogen were big players the last time I looked into it. And remember, the thermonuclear device detonated in the Bikini Islands duplicated what is happening on the sun. We are now just about at the 1/2 way point in the sun's life. The sun is 4.5 billion years old. Things will begin to go downhill in about 2.5 to 3 billion years. Your fault with most theories seems to me to be a result of your misinformation or lack of understanding. And, in this case, you will not need any paranormal revelation - it is all set out in clear text. Evolution and the creation of life are two very different subjects. The bible does have that problem. There are things in the bible that are in error because of the knowledge people had at the time. Look into how the earth and its surroundings are pictured in the bible and see how that fits with what is known. No, you restated your premise. My question is why you think that sacrificing a human to a supreme being removes guilt from other people, except that it says this in the bible. If I cut a leg off a table, the table will be unstable and the reason for it can be explained. If I drop a stone into a pond it will cause ripples all across the surface and the cause and effect can be explained. Man has sacrificed to gods since the beginning of time. Both the Carthaginians and Phoenicians sacrificed infants to their gods. The Aztecs sacrificed people to win the favor of the gods. All I was hoping for was for you to explain how killing Jesus accomplished what you claim. More to the point, can you provide a logical explanation? Please explain how someone working on curing a disease for decades is selfish? How does self pride figure into this? This is a poor example because the "creator" has never come out and said anything. No one I know is trying to prove anything about god and what he did or did not create. That is left up to the various religions and people with faith in the paranormal. Again - there is the question of the existence of the creator. I guess your ant believes in the creator. Do you get angry with the flying spaghetti monster? Not quite. First we must teach science in schools. Supportable theories. Otherwise the United States will fall even more behind in the math and science areas. Waving your hands and saying "God made this all happen." answers no questions and explains absolutely nothing. You may feel OK teaching people that the cure for gonorrhea can be found in the bible but I think antibiotics is a better solution than offering two turtledoves to god. And this is exactly what the creationists sites would have you believe are the current theories. You have to remember, there is no creator in play. You never even bother to try to tell the truth. Did anyone ever say there was no right or wrong? No good or evil? Only you. But think about this - do you know the difference between right and wrong or are you just following orders?
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Post by rational on Dec 15, 2008 18:33:14 GMT -5
Concerning the crucifixion of Jesus. Rational, I understand why you do not see the significance. I don't have a problem with that, but that is my Savior, by faith, so allow me to feel the significance. It is not only that I cannot see the significance but I have yet to see an explanation as to how human sacrifice removes sin from other people except for the fact that god said that because he sacrificed his son people's sins are removed. If that is the case, why not just remove the sins? Why sacrifice a human? The sins were against god. He can forgive these sins. Where does the human sacrifice come into it?
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Post by MsMarie on Dec 16, 2008 2:56:34 GMT -5
As I see it, God is and has to be perfectly just. Whatever we receive at the end of days from God will be perfectly just both for believers and non believers. He created us in perfection to live with Him but due to disobedience, man (the term includes woman also) could no longer dwell with God and had to be cast out where the results of their disobedience are even now, sickness and death. Being the children of Adam, we cannot escape his legacy and fate.
But God loves each and every one of us, we are His creation. He has compassion and wants us to dwell with Him, but being sinful, we are unacceptable to live with Him. Sin and God cannot dwell together. There is nothing we can do to get ourselves out of this situation. However much God wants us and would forgive us our sins, it is apparent that those sins have a price to be paid to remove them. Note: not just forgiveness, but removal by atonement. Whether you believe it or not, God did accept sin sacrificial offerings of animals in the Old Testament and combined with their faith, accepted those who made the offerings.
Then God said he no longer delighted in the blood of bulls and goats etc and it was His plan to make the unique and one-off sacrifice of Jesus (in other words He sacrificed Himself). The ultimate scapegoat if you like. Jesus paid the price for all our sins and made provision for ongoing sin. Grace which is the undeserved favour of God came into being, in that if we can just grasp the concept and see what He offers and accept it, we shall find salvation from the situation of Adam, that is, eternal life in Heaven which Adam lost.
But even the non believer will find justice from God. Have you ever seen one of those folk who used to carry placards with the slogan "The Wages of Sin is Death". I used to laugh at them (and the grammar) or at least feel embarrassed for them, but nowadays I am convinced we will all receive the wages due. No more nor less. A due wage handed out is always just.
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Post by rational on Dec 16, 2008 19:14:04 GMT -5
I read your words but the evidence flies in the face of logic. He created us in perfection to live with Him but due to disobedience, man (the term includes woman also) could no longer dwell with God and had to be cast out where the results of their disobedience are even now, sickness and death. Being the children of Adam, we cannot escape his legacy and fate. This means that the sins of Eve and Adam are being cast on their sons (offspring). Yet in the bible, inspires and guided by god, we read that: The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.(Ezekiel 18:20) According to this verse, the sons of Adam should not bear the punishment for Adam's sin. God kills people. That does not speak of love. He allows children to suffer at the hands of child abusers. And what is that price? So what you are saying is that god decided that if someone slaughtered an animal and burned it their sins would be forgiven? Would a higher animal be used for bigger sins? And, in the view of man, the sacrifice of a human would be the ultimate sacrifice. And these sacrifices decreed from a god that, as you said, loved each of his creations. Yet he supports the sacrifice of these same creations. And now we are back to deciding what makes this one crucification the "ultimate" one. What you seem to be saying is that all of this is the case because god said it was so. But is that is true, what was the point of killing a human? If it is so only because god decreed it, why not decree the sacrifice of a tree? Perhaps at christmas time! Well, I guess neither of us will know with 100% certainty until we die. So far no one has return to report on conditions on the other side.
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Post by Sharon on Dec 16, 2008 21:37:16 GMT -5
Dan Dan Dan, Don't make me come out there, LOL He is just expressing his opinion and I am going against him on this as I have read the physical things that happen in crucifixion. They nail the hands out and the feet so that the body starts to slump. as the body slumps the lungs fill with fluid. the victim has to push up with the legs to get air and attempt to remove the fluid. as the weakness from the extreme pain doesn't allow the victim to breath, they are soon just gasping with lungs filling with fluid. eventually they can no longer breathe. NOW: remember Jesus had a crown of thorns so he couldn't rest his head back like the others. Also he had been whipped, so his back was most likely raw, and he had been up for 36 hours with no food, water, or any rest. I can't imagine his torn flesh on his back against that cross. I apologize for the graphic details, but maybe we all need to read it. That sounds like one of the worst ways to die. I know of others like "death of a thousand cuts". It all is very agonizing and I don't want to see any one die any way. Rational, I am sure you are not suggesting that my description is in accurate or a comfy way to die. Any death , due to torture, is ugly. So lets leave that alone. Peace to all, Pianoman Pianoman...this is pretty close to what the Old Mexico worker Lyn Walker used to tell about the crucifixion. Although the main difference was that the "riser" post was already set deep in the ground and the part that had to be born by the convicted ones was the cross arms. When the soldiers got the convicted ones to the riser posts they made them lay down with their head in the middle of the crossarms and then they would stretch their arms out as far as they could force them to reach then they would picky up crossarm with the prisoner attached by his hands and throw him upon to the riser post...which the force of the throw and the prisoner's body weight would dislocate both shoulders. Now a dislocated shoulder is extremely painful. Imagine having two. Then the soldiers would bend the prisoner's knees slightly so they could and would push up on the nails within their feet simply to be able to breathe....thus death was typically slow and very painful. Thus the story of the soldiers being required to break the prisoners' legs so they could no longer push up to get that painful breath. It's amazing how much pain a body will endure just to get that breath.
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Post by MsMarie on Dec 17, 2008 2:03:55 GMT -5
Rational: Now this is getting really pointless. I could search through the scriptures and counter what you have said, also point by point as is your preferred method, in fact started to do that. But what would that achieve, you are determined to take an adversarial stance toward Christian faith and beliefs. Were you professing at one time, I am sorry but I don't know where it is you are coming from.
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Post by rational on Dec 17, 2008 9:50:44 GMT -5
Rational: Now this is getting really pointless. I could search through the scriptures and counter what you have said, also point by point as is your preferred method, in fact started to do that. But what would that achieve, you are determined to take an adversarial stance toward Christian faith and beliefs. Were you professing at one time, I am sorry but I don't know where it is you are coming from. I was for the first 18 years of my life living with a professing family and going through the motions myself. I don't mean to be taking an adversarial position and it certainly is not towards you. I am asking, as I have many people, about the reasoning behind a supreme being sacrificing a human. As has been pointed out above, many humans forgive their fellow man without having to receive a burnt slaughtered animal first. If someone does something that is against me (much like someone sinning) I can, if I desire, forgive them and forget the incident. My question is why, in christianity, there is the need for the bloody sacrifice, the gory details, and the human sacrifice? I quote point by point because it avoids being accused to taking people out of context or misquoting them. It also specifically addresses the points rather than offering some vague response that can be interpreted in a variety of ways. The point here is that you could go through the bible and find the verses that refute what I posted. But you stated that we are suffering, according to the bible (the word of god), because of the sins of Adam and Eve. I simply pointed out that contained within that same bible god stated that people will not be punished/blamed for the sins of others. Personally, I see those statements as contradictory. There is no need to look for other verses that provide yet another contradictory position. I agree, that would be pointless. But on the other hand, explaining how the verse from Ezekiel does not contradict the whole idea of original sin might be instructional. I think the bible is a fantastic book (on more than one level). But to claim it is an inerrant text is an extraordinary claim. It is interesting to see the responses when people's beliefs are questioned. At times it seems there is a fear that questioning will lead to unraveling the entire fabric of their belief system. Should a person's belief be able to stand up to questioning?
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