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Post by Observing on Dec 19, 2007 11:15:30 GMT -5
Hi Sharon, It was not one of the 'big six', but one our family has known and respected for decades. I agree totally with the doctrine issue. While I don't know what it was all about, I heard that they used the 'Jesus could not sin' as an excuse. The excuse was 'we aren't like that', and men will sin. One of his followers said 'all men will try to seduce, and it's up to the woman to say no'. Another said 'it was just for his gratification' (that was about molesting children!). I know well three victims from both of those men. So children were molested and the authorities were not brought in? Were the women "hit on" or sexually assaulted? Has no one every heard of the police??! What planet do these things happen on? It is exactly the same as you or I watching a mother hit her child in a store and not calling child protective services. It is the same as people on this message board stating they have signed letters, names and places of children being molested and not turning them in to the authorities in the various states because the parents have requested that the authorities not be notified. Gossiping about these things on a message board is not the same as reporting them to the authorities. It is a matter of educating the population so that they can see that abuse of any kind should not be tolerated. Try to put a law in place that makes hitting a child illegal and you will see people come out of the woodwork who are against the government interfering in the way they treat their children. It raises the question - If you don't intend to hit children why would you care if there was a law to prevent it? I don't mind if there is a law against shooting people because that is not something I do. But when they try to pass laws against fatty food - Stand back!
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Post by Observing on Dec 19, 2007 11:24:49 GMT -5
I dunno, Juliette. I speak often on this board against the "rules" but, honestly, I believe that worker worship is the more serious issue in the religion. There should not even be a QUESTION about what should be done when a parent catches a molester in the act with their child: Shoot the b*st*rd in the head. Then call the police. I GUESS if one has some sort of religious convictions about that sort of violence, then they could call the police first. But I doubt that that is what would happen at my house. I rarely post on the T.S. case because I'm so hot headed about it I'm afraid my computer might explode. God gave us these kids and IMO we oughta protect them. Just my two cents. freespirit Suggesting murder is stepping outside the line. You said: God gave us these kids and IMO we oughta protect them.As I mentioned before: When is the last time you called CPS whey you saw a child being abused in public? What was the last state you notified when you had evidence that someone was a danger to children? There was a post from someone with a written letter of apology from IH. If he is still in the company of children he could be molesting them right now. But how many letters were written to the state of Texas, a state where everyone is a mandated reporter, informing them that there was a self admitted child molester there? Apathy. This is not a 2X2 issue, it is not a religious issue - it is a human issue.
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Post by juliette on Dec 19, 2007 23:56:04 GMT -5
I dunno, Juliette. I speak often on this board against the "rules" but, honestly, I believe that worker worship is the more serious issue in the religion. There should not even be a QUESTION about what should be done when a parent catches a molester in the act with their child: Shoot the b*st*rd in the head. Then call the police. I GUESS if one has some sort of religious convictions about that sort of violence, then they could call the police first. But I doubt that that is what would happen at my house. I rarely post on the T.S. case because I'm so hot headed about it I'm afraid my computer might explode. God gave us these kids and IMO we oughta protect them. Just my two cents. freespirit Suggesting murder is stepping outside the line. You said: God gave us these kids and IMO we oughta protect them.As I mentioned before: When is the last time you called CPS whey you saw a child being abused in public? What was the last state you notified when you had evidence that someone was a danger to children? There was a post from someone with a written letter of apology from IH. If he is still in the company of children he could be molesting them right now. But how many letters were written to the state of Texas, a state where everyone is a mandated reporter, informing them that there was a self admitted child molester there? Apathy. This is not a 2X2 issue, it is not a religious issue - it is a human issue. I have called child protection in the past about things that concerned me. I'm not sure how that's relevant. I also once got in the middle of a domestic assault that was occurring in a public place. So do those things make me qualified in your mind to complain about how the issue of sexual molestation has been handled by people I know. Is it really "gossip" to discuss things you know happened? My main "gripe" that I felt like venting about last night was about how my parents handled information they had about Tim S. I know my parents, and I know they treated this information differently because he was a worker. I know that if it had been their neighbor, they would have told me even if my children had not been exposed to him. Regarding the IH issue. Two victims have notified the authorities about abuse that occurred when they were children. But the statute of limitations is up and nothing can be done legally at this time. So me or someone else on this board calling the "state of Texas" to report what we know would obviously be useless. That doesn't mean that man isn't a threat. If I were still going to meeting, I would want to know about a man like this. Since the law can't anything at this point, and the leadership of the f&w religion chooses not to do anything, it's one way that parents can be aware of potential dangers. You can call it gossip... I call it exchanging information.
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rationalminded
New Member
"Atheism is a non-prophet organization" -George Carlin
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Post by rationalminded on Dec 20, 2007 0:11:08 GMT -5
I've just read through this thread and I am surprised at the deafening silence from bert, nathan9 and like-minded others. What say you, boys?
The thread has been up for a year and a half and has been read over 3,000 times. Some interesting stories here. I've read through many mincing examinations of doctrinal minutiae on other threads, yet on this topic there is nothing from the usual "defenders of the faith".
Speak up! What shall it profit a tiny, mostly unknown religious sect if it keeps kicking out or alienating its members?
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Post by juliette on Dec 20, 2007 0:12:38 GMT -5
I should apologize for hijacking this thread. My rants really didn't belong here.
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julio
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Post by julio on Dec 20, 2007 3:37:18 GMT -5
Someone in Alaska has been doing what they can to appropriately address these issues, but they're pretty limited in what they can do, also because of the time that's passed. I didn't find out until a couple years after the occurances. You can bet if I caught someone with my children I'd notify the police! And a sister worker told me she advised parents to go to the police, not the workers. They aren't qualified to deal with it! It seems there's progress being made in addressing these issues. In the past, I'd heard people kept silent about suspicions 'for the truth's sake'. As more and more are aware and watchful, I hope steps will be taken to protect our children! I'm sorry if I've gotten off the subject line too.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2007 9:24:31 GMT -5
While silence and coverup are still the dominant treatment of embarrassing church problems, I agree Julio that we are making some headway. I give big credit to people like Julliette who have done what they can on issues such as child molestation. Our church jurisdiction has had a mandatory reporting policy in place for several years now. Whether it always gets followed is another matter, we'll probably never know. I suspect we were one of the first to do this though, and perhaps still one of the few. We still have a long way to go to deal with the many dysfunctional issues of the church such as excommunication and many others. Generational patterns are extremely hard to break it seems. Someone in Alaska has been doing what they can to appropriately address these issues, but they're pretty limited in what they can do, also because of the time that's passed. I didn't find out until a couple years after the occurances. You can bet if I caught someone with my children I'd notify the police! And a sister worker told me she advised parents to go to the police, not the workers. They aren't qualified to deal with it! It seems there's progress being made in addressing these issues. In the past, I'd heard people kept silent about suspicions 'for the truth's sake'. As more and more are aware and watchful, I hope steps will be taken to protect our children! I'm sorry if I've gotten off the subject line too.
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Post by Brick on Dec 23, 2007 11:11:57 GMT -5
I dunno, Juliette. I speak often on this board against the "rules" but, honestly, I believe that worker worship is the more serious issue in the religion. Amen. I honestly believe that if we were to perform a "root cause analysis" of the major problems in this fellowship, many or most would stem from undue authority being given to workers. It is not good for them and it is not good for the fellowship. This elevated status causes people to overlook their faults, request their blessing for things that are none of their business, etc. There is a place for them in the fellowship, but my personal belief is that the local churches and elders (by elder, I'm not just referring to those who have a meeting, but rather mature Christians) should form the backbone of the leadership of this fellowship.
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Post by juliette on Dec 23, 2007 12:32:11 GMT -5
I dunno, Juliette. I speak often on this board against the "rules" but, honestly, I believe that worker worship is the more serious issue in the religion. Amen. I honestly believe that if we were to perform a "root cause analysis" of the major problems in this fellowship, many or most would stem from undue authority being given to workers. It is not good for them and it is not good for the fellowship. This elevated status causes people to overlook their faults, request their blessing for things that are none of their business, etc. There is a place for them in the fellowship, but my personal belief is that the local churches and elders (by elder, I'm not just referring to those who have a meeting, but rather mature Christians) should form the backbone of the leadership of this fellowship. How did the pirate get so smart? I like what you've said before about the problem going both ways... people giving the workers too much control, and that then feeding into natural feelings of pride that the workers develop. I wonder what I'd be like if people treated my every word as God's truth.... I suppose I'd get a little full of myself. I hesitate to even post this, because it is so over the top. Please note that I in no way believe that this is a belief or opinion held by the fellowship as a whole. My friend was recently in a Sunday morning meeting, where a woman my age said in her testimony that "in no other religion do they have ministers who have already been to heaven, but we're so lucky because our workers have already been to heaven". This family (the woman's mother and siblings) are very much "whatever the workers say is true". I'm trying to find another meaning to her testimony... because it seems impossible that someone would actually say that.
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Post by Brick on Dec 23, 2007 13:14:54 GMT -5
I shouldn't be smiling as I read that. It truly is sad, but I'm sorry if I find that kind of naivety amusing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2007 21:00:06 GMT -5
And amen to that Brick. Our fellowship is very weak because of dependence upon largely absentee workers. The real support for the church should fall upon the God-appointed (not necessarily worker-appointed) elders. If our elders were ever to suddenly become real elders, there would be some initial chaos, but in the long run the fellowship would be stronger and more connected to God. Just an hour ago, my wife and I were discussing the widespread insecurity and defensiveness of the friends. This is purely a product of worker dependency. I dunno, Juliette. I speak often on this board against the "rules" but, honestly, I believe that worker worship is the more serious issue in the religion. Amen. I honestly believe that if we were to perform a "root cause analysis" of the major problems in this fellowship, many or most would stem from undue authority being given to workers. It is not good for them and it is not good for the fellowship. This elevated status causes people to overlook their faults, request their blessing for things that are none of their business, etc. There is a place for them in the fellowship, but my personal belief is that the local churches and elders (by elder, I'm not just referring to those who have a meeting, but rather mature Christians) should form the backbone of the leadership of this fellowship.
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3
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Post by 3 on Dec 23, 2007 21:53:41 GMT -5
While a 2x2, I had some incredible elders. They truly had concern for the 'little flock' that met in their home. I could go to these elders with a question or with a struggle and could trust their judgment.
One of these elders was called upon to help out/preach in Gospel meeting more than once as the older sister worker was often ill. He did a wonderful job.....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2007 22:24:10 GMT -5
I don't doubt your experience is true 3. Generally though, elders have lost the ability to apply justness, reason and understanding for those around them. The reason for this is that the primary qualification for elder in our part of the world is their loyalty to the workers. Workers will avoid like the plague appointing members who are moved by conscience, which means those who are willing on occasion to take a position contrary to the workers. So this creates and perpetuates a pool of sycophants. Most elders refer all questions and problems to the workers even if they are capable of helping right there on the spot. In the meantime, the individual seeking assistance may have to wait for months for a worker to be around to help, and then can sometimes wind up getting a non-answer. The system is mostly broken. The church needs to recognize that friends have varying gifts and should be encouraged to use them. That could be gifts of teaching, of caring, of guiding, even of evangelizing. However, the workers tend to discourage any initiatives from the friends and studiously stick to the traditions such as the gospel meeting system which do not work well for anyone anymore. While a 2x2, I had some incredible elders. They truly had concern for the 'little flock' that met in their home. I could go to these elders with a question or with a struggle and could trust their judgment. One of these elders was called upon to help out/preach in Gospel meeting more than once as the older sister worker was often ill. He did a wonderful job.....
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Jackie
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Post by Jackie on Dec 24, 2007 1:56:50 GMT -5
And amen to that Brick. Our fellowship is very weak because of dependence upon largely absentee workers. The real support for the church should fall upon the God-appointed (not necessarily worker-appointed) elders. If our elders were ever to suddenly become real elders, there would be some initial chaos, but in the long run the fellowship would be stronger and more connected to God. Just an hour ago, my wife and I were discussing the widespread insecurity and defensiveness of the friends. This is purely a product of worker dependency. Amen. I honestly believe that if we were to perform a "root cause analysis" of the major problems in this fellowship, many or most would stem from undue authority being given to workers. It is not good for them and it is not good for the fellowship. This elevated status causes people to overlook their faults, request their blessing for things that are none of their business, etc. There is a place for them in the fellowship, but my personal belief is that the local churches and elders (by elder, I'm not just referring to those who have a meeting, but rather mature Christians) should form the backbone of the leadership of this fellowship. Worker-worship is not what the workers want or expect when they join the work. I'm pretty sure they don't give up their homes/professions/personal lives etc for self worship. I do believe that God calls them and sends messages to us through them. That's not to say that some can't fool people and that all of them are pure in heart, but I really do believe that they are God's servants and do preach his word and doctrine. The workers I've listened to have preached the miracle of the gospel and the miracles it can do in our lives. The workers I've heard have preached the words of Jesus and spoke about the life of Jesus and what's to argue about that? The experiences I've read about on this board are so foreign from what I've experienced. I feel bad about some things that others have shared but I know it's not the norm and it's not conclusive of this faith. I am currently not taking part in meetings or even attending them, but I want to. I've had some strange experiences while professing but I know in my heart that God cares and he wants me back in the fold.
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Post by ranman77007 on Dec 24, 2007 3:05:29 GMT -5
you are still in the fold...
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Jackie
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Post by Jackie on Dec 24, 2007 6:23:11 GMT -5
you are still in the fold... ahhh hahaha ranman. I'm so far, I don't think He can see me anymore. Truth be told, I experienced sexual abuse from a worker, he honestly felt bad and repented, I believe he's been forgiven, he doesn't require my forgiveness and I still have respect for him today. I don't actually consider it 'abuse', it wasn't a self-destroying event, and now he's married and I'm dating and there's no bitterness on either side. Maybe I'm different but I never felt he owed me an appology or anything. He did appologize for what he did, and he was later removed from the work, but that broke my heart when I heard that. He had a natural, fleshly desire that everyone else has. I felt he was being punished for it and it made me feel bad. I think people feel that being in the work means you're exempt from such things or that you should have such a close walk with God that you'll never feel or act on such desires. I think that when someone goes into the work, satan takes more notice of you and tries harder to influence you. Flame me all you want for that belief, but it's not going to change. I really believe that satan tries harder to influence those who make an effort to resist him.
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Post by Gene on Dec 24, 2007 8:58:39 GMT -5
I dunno, Juliette. I speak often on this board against the "rules" but, honestly, I believe that worker worship is the more serious issue in the religion. Amen. I honestly believe that if we were to perform a "root cause analysis" of the major problems in this fellowship, many or most would stem from undue authority being given to workers. It is not good for them and it is not good for the fellowship. This elevated status causes people to overlook their faults, request their blessing for things that are none of their business, etc. There is a place for them in the fellowship, but my personal belief is that the local churches and elders (by elder, I'm not just referring to those who have a meeting, but rather mature Christians) should form the backbone of the leadership of this fellowship. Brick, I have this debilitating ability to argue either side of an issue, which occasionally leaves me bewildered as to my personal position on an issue. When I first read yours, I agreed. That was when wearing the "the f&w church is of God" hat. Upon reflection, however, wearing my agnostic hat, I wish to challenge your point of view. I think that without a hierarchical system of some sort the fellowship would fall apart. If the 'rules' were left to each elder the differences from meeting to meeting would rapidly become so pronounced that there would soon be no unifying thread. Most meetings would probably dissolve in favor of other local better-organized churches. Special meetings and conventions would cease. To me, it is a simple matter of personalities, human frailties, and the desire for power and control that many possess. Take a look at the TMB board that GIT started a while back, in which he gave "moderator" powers to virtually all members. We had bannings right and left within a matter of DAYS! Rule by the masses simply does not work. Rule by representative government, sure -- dictatorship, sure - monarchy, sure... but not direct rule in which every elder has his own little fiefdom of 10 to 20 people. Some would be fine; I have known some fine elders who truly cared for the flock, but I'm afraid those types are few and far between. And even they, without the binding influence and oversight of the workers would soon find differences among themselves that could not be solved one-on-one. There must be a hierarchy, a law-giver, a justice system, a supreme court. And if not the workers, who? A system of oversight by elders rather than workers? In a few years the fellowship would be in the same state it is in now.
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Post by Brick on Dec 24, 2007 9:20:53 GMT -5
I certainly see and agree with your argument, Gene, but the framework of your position only utilizes components that are now in place. Obviously, if we are going to continue to be a fellowship or church, we need some sort of unifying body, such as a board of overseers, etc. One of the local community churches utilizes such a system to guide and direct the activities and budget functions of their church. Their minister sits in on the board meetings and has input, but doesn't have veto authority. What we need is a group of people, workers included, because the decisions made will impact them, to do long range planning, short term planning, and execution of things such as conventions. special meetings, who goes where, what funds are available, etc. All of this, including management of funds, would be documented and available for any to see. The end of secrecy. Power to the people. Amen.
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3
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Post by 3 on Dec 24, 2007 9:40:15 GMT -5
Thanks for posting, Jackie.
I'm wondering if you can share a bit more of your story. Why is it that you aren't taking part in meetings right now? Why is it you feel God wants you 'back in the fold'?
Other than being caught in the middle of a power struggle, now and then, I didn't experience what so many exes claim they experienced at the hand of a worker. I don't doubt that there are bad apples in every barrel. Guess I was lucky to never have had a bad apple in my field. My opinion is that likely 99% of folks entering the work do so with a motive of wanting to help others.
Then, life simply happens and some do not have the character or fortitude to rise above life's expected ups and downs and succomb to the easy way out: undesireable behavior. It happens in ANY organization.
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Post by Gene on Dec 24, 2007 10:26:13 GMT -5
I certainly see and agree with your argument, Gene, but the framework of your position only utilizes components that are now in place. Obviously, if we are going to continue to be a fellowship or church, we need some sort of unifying body, such as a board of overseers, etc. One of the local community churches utilizes such a system to guide and direct the activities and budget functions of their church. Their minister sits in on the board meetings and has input, but doesn't have veto authority. What we need is a group of people, workers included, because the decisions made will impact them, to do long range planning, short term planning, and execution of things such as conventions. special meetings, who goes where, what funds are available, etc. All of this, including management of funds, would be documented and available for any to see. The end of secrecy. Power to the people. Amen. That makes sense. A sort of board of directors made up of elders, workers, and plain-old-joe members. And then perhaps some kind of executive committee, rule-making body, oversight group, disciplinary body, appeals board, etc. Makes me tired. Agnosticism is so much easier! Power to the people. Amen.
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Post by degem on Dec 24, 2007 15:48:21 GMT -5
This is just a test...please ignore
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Post by ranman77007 on Dec 24, 2007 22:27:10 GMT -5
This is just a test...please ignore lol thats what i write when someone blocks me.... ;D ;D
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Post by Brick on Dec 25, 2007 6:41:19 GMT -5
Sounds like it's a regular thing for you.
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Post by ranman77007 on Dec 25, 2007 10:45:32 GMT -5
nobody is blocking me at the moment...
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Post by Brick on Dec 25, 2007 10:47:54 GMT -5
Wow! Is that a first? Or maybe because it is Christmas?
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Jackie
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Post by Jackie on Dec 27, 2007 5:50:32 GMT -5
Thanks for posting, Jackie. I'm wondering if you can share a bit more of your story. Why is it that you aren't taking part in meetings right now? Why is it you feel God wants you 'back in the fold'? Other than being caught in the middle of a power struggle, now and then, I didn't experience what so many exes claim they experienced at the hand of a worker. I don't doubt that there are bad apples in every barrel. Guess I was lucky to never have had a bad apple in my field. My opinion is that likely 99% of folks entering the work do so with a motive of wanting to help others. Then, life simply happens and some do not have the character or fortitude to rise above life's expected ups and downs and succomb to the easy way out: undesireable behavior. It happens in ANY organization. I won't share names or what happened, just that I was 16 yrs old and it shouldn''t have happened. But.......truth is, it wasn't anything I hadn't experienced before (with a peer), it just wasn't expected from a worker who was in his 30's at the time. It wasn't rape or anything obscene like that. Nothing offensive to me now. It just shouldn't have happened between him and I. He's very dear to my heart and I have no anger towards him. I just know that workers are given (by some people) such high esteem and regard, that they think they can't possibly have human wants or desires. I think I kind of hijacked this thread so I'm going to *wave* and exit.
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Post by degem on Dec 27, 2007 16:20:09 GMT -5
Ex-communication first came to my attention several months ago. I listened to the tapes of the friends who were ex-communicated in Alberta...I sat there with my mouth hanging open.. I had the hardest time taking in what I had heard...I played them over several times...I can't remember the name of the man who said that he was taping the conversation between him and the workers...but I do remember him saying that there was a crowd of people in the room. I kept saying "Way to go..good going etc." I was appalled and angry at how the workers were so nasty...and yet the spirits of the friends was so beautiful..and I'm sure to this day their spirits are beautiful....gem
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Post by Scott Ross on Dec 27, 2007 22:38:44 GMT -5
Hey there gem, I email some of those folks up there in Alberta. There's still some hard feelings up there concerning what happened. It has put some of the professing folks in a difficult spot trying to 'toe the line' and remain friends with some of those who got excommunicated. Really a sad, sad situation. Those workers involved in this mess should be the ones who get the boot. Too bad the elders don't have the authority that they should have. The local church should be handled through the elders with the input of the 'visiting' workers and overseer, rather than have the workers have the ultimate say. My pastor answers to the elders of our church. He is our spiritual leader in the church, but is not the one to take care of the church issues. Makes a lot of sense to me... Scott
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