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Post by recentarriver on Jun 24, 2006 17:56:26 GMT -5
Does anyone know are there any of the F&W who have been excommunicated in the USA?
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pamd
New Member
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Post by pamd on Jun 26, 2006 3:41:15 GMT -5
I do not know if they were "excommunicated" but there was a mentally unbalanced family who used to picket Gilroy convention grounds in the late 60's and 70's. I knew some of the relatives and knew the picketers were definitely sad folks.
There was a divorced man who came faithfully to our home, my dad was the elder, for nearly 20 years, but was not allowed to take part. I always thought it was sad. Now I think it was quite damning of the lack of Christianity in the "truth."
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 27, 2006 18:02:45 GMT -5
RE: Does anyone know are there any of the F&W who have been excommunicated in the USA?
Dennis Jacobsen, who posts on here some was excommunicated. He lives in WA
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Post by studylearning on Jul 2, 2006 0:39:26 GMT -5
Does anyone know are there any of the F&W who have been excommunicated in the USA? Lets see now. I was told three things that I have not justified in my mind yet. I might add that I have been out-spoken regarding this issue. It seems that when taken togather it would appear as if I was excomunicated by default. I was told by two sister workers in May the following. 1. My testimony was not edifying and not the type of testimony which would be welcome. 2. I was "unwilling." 3. I was not in the "right spirit." Now it was made clear that the reasons for this was that I spoke about someone who I felt found salvation outside the 2x2 before they died. I was told that I should pray about it. Pray about it I did for many years before this happened. I was also told they do not teach God Incarnate. So then It seems that the workers have told me more or less--These ideas are not welcome and if I continue I am not welcome. Since I cannot and will not deny the power of God, I guess I am not welcome in that group. I must be silent to continue. Since this is not an option I guess I have been excomunicated by default Michigan
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Post by seekingtruth on Jul 4, 2006 17:13:20 GMT -5
Studylearning, although I've never had such a conversation with a worker I deserve to stand with you. When my husband, who had quit coming to meetings with good reason, passed on I was given "comfort" being told it was sad that he hadn't continued. He didn't quit reading scripture and didn't quit praying. I'm not worried about his eternity because I know the things he valued. Do you mind sharing space?
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dollface
Junior Member
Never dig a hole deeper than you can crawl out of
Posts: 141
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Post by dollface on Jul 5, 2006 11:23:46 GMT -5
I was not officially "excommunicated" but the signs were pointing that way.
The workers came to our house wanting to "visit" with me, have scripture readings. Since this had NEVER occured before, I asked, "Why?", and "what scripture?"
Answer: They wanted to see if I had "lost my salvation." The scriptures they wanted to read were Paul's writings.
My Answer: I had been in this way longer than either of them and knew more about it than they did. I did NOT have to be in fellowship with them to have a relationship with God. Furthermore, unless we would read the teachings of Jesus, there would be no "scripture readings".
In a follow up "visit", which included the "elder and his wife", I was instructed that I could no longer take part in testimony. They would get back to me on whether I could pray out loud during prayer. And it was probably "OK" for me to sing the hymns with everyone else.
My husband and I attended one more Sunday meeting after that. We looked at each other and said, "screw this". Our beliefs of who God is and how God behaves does NOT look like this. We left and never looked back.
Wheeeeee!!!!
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Post by seekingtruth on Jul 8, 2006 9:55:52 GMT -5
Several years ago a woman (not professing) told me that her husband had been ex-communicated because "he was studying to be a worker and had ideas for improvements". I found that hard to believe because I'd never heard of such a thing and I had been in meetings since birth. I didn't say anything but I thought that was strange. Now I know it is true. Sorry to say but this guy is a a certifiable jerk! This whole business. But if 2x2 is the only way how do they justify tossing out the baby in the bath water? Seems to me that where there is life there is hope. Doesn't denying someone fellowship with them then constitute damnation? Of course, they may not like "parade duty" (following the horse with the shovel!)
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todd
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Post by todd on Nov 5, 2006 10:43:36 GMT -5
i excommuniated my self with some helpful hints along the way
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todd
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Post by todd on Nov 5, 2006 20:39:52 GMT -5
if you have an enquiring mind be careful
did god give you an enquiring mind and give you education to learn about history and know and listen to god that alone is a gift from god- are you listening
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Post by sharonhargreaves on May 31, 2007 14:47:47 GMT -5
The worker Nicole (can't think of her last name) was certainly ex'ed - I also ex'ed my self - since I was finished and overwhelmed by the stifling oppression of 'control' - to stay would have been a total breakdown - Siince leaving and finally getting information and finding out that with effort one can learn to think and reason for themselves a whole floodgate has opened for me. When I left meetings I certainly 'took control' and es'ed myself- Since meetings - conventions etc. are the domain and jurisdiciton of the workers I was not going to let them have any more 'say' in my life. I wrote Paul Sharp and Ernest Nelson that I was leaving - in a subsequent visit with Paul (with a witness) because I would never again be in any significant conversation with a worker without a witness - my companion I was leaving then explained to the lady of the home where we were that
'from now on sharon will be making her own plans"
For some stange reason this comment struck me odd - as in my heart I was really beginning to feel for the first time that I was in God's leading and that He was making some plans for me instead of 'men' like Paul and Ernest making plans ----
sharon hargreaves
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Post by sharonhargreaves on May 31, 2007 14:51:24 GMT -5
yes - and Fern Strouse - worker from Montana was ex'ed when she made effort to reach out to people with alcohol problems etc. Such an outreach was not acceptable to the 'older workers' sharon hargreaves
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2007 17:17:21 GMT -5
Hello.
A couple of years ago a "2&2 ministry group/sect/cult/denomination professing man" visited with me, and actually asked me why I no longer attended meeting. So I began with the first reason that I came not to attend meetings, in that I was forbidden to do so by the region overseer, who excommunicated me.
The man interrupted me saying that "workers" never excommunicate anyone, and that it is a Roman Catholic term. Inwardly, I had to smile, and I simply asked, "who should I believe, you or the letters I've received and my own experience?" He had nothing further to say, turned and walked away speechless.
Yes, I still have that letter given me through two fearful women, who knew their own place in that group was determined by the level of their obedience and submission to what that overseer said and did, no matter how senile I thought he had become. When I was his companion, he told me many things, that I believe he later came to regret. I believe he was looking for a way to silence me from ever relating those things to others. He, as myself, knew nothing at that time of the Internet.
Not only was I told in that letter not to attend meetings, but that the "workers and friends" would be advised everywhere of what I was told and that he knew they would fit in with whatever he decided if I did attend meetings. Quietly, knowing he was very wrong, and that I must listen to God and not man, and not wanting to force people I loved in my home region into the same situation as myself, I obeyed that edict while there. However, I attended and participated in meetings elsewhere, as at that time we had means and opportunity to travel..
At a convention our family attended some 4,000 miles from home, a very wicked and licentious "worker" from my home region (who has since revealed himself for what he was/is?) was one of the "guests of honor." Immediately I knew what would happen, and indeed, even before I could return home, I was being slandered and libeled world wide. Before I could even get halfway home, word had reached the Midwest that I was excommunicated and forbidden to attend meetings, and that the friends were not to welcome me in their homes or meetings.
From that moment forward, I never attended another meeting. There was a "worker" before my time in Sweden who had been "excommunicated." One of the warnings I had been given from childhood was of the necessity not to run afoul of powerful "workers" and get myself excommunicated, so curious, I inquired further about that "worker." When that man came to my wife's parents home, they hid in darkness pretending they were not home when they saw who it was that had come to visit them.
They personally knew nothing about that man which caused them to respond in such a manner. Just the opposite. They had loved and respected him. My wife and her siblings, children at the time, were afraid and dared not even inquire, lest they cause their parents to also be "put out."
When I was excommunicated, I witnessed and experienced first hand being betrayed by most of my closest family members, who were more concerned about their own relationship to and with "workers" than they were about even my own wife and children. Even if I had been guilty of some crime, which I was not, my wife and children were completely innocent, and I was even told by devout 2&2 ministry group/sect/cult/denomination "workers and friends" that I was both responsible and accountable for whatever happened to them, both in this life and in their eternal destiny because I did not submit to that senile, if not wicked, overseer.
In those days there was nothing like this Internet to turn to, nor any place of this sort to find information. I had to turn entirely to my Lord and God, of whom I found myself giving an Elijah test. He responded in such a way that I had no doubts as to HIM, His existence, or the provision made for me and His gift of eternal life.
There are those who accuse me of being bitter when I relate such occurrences. I have often wondered at this, for I merely relate what has happened, and as I experienced it. The conclusion that now rests in my mind, is that such people who make that accusation likely are inclined to believe they would be bitter in the same situation, and so judge me accordingly.
People everywhere are given many examples of how wonderful "2&2ism" (for lack of a better descriptive term) is. When I asked my Lord whether or not I should relate my own experiences, the answer came to me, "People need to also know how, when and where it has utterly failed." So, indeed, I have had my part in helping information become available to others, even to you who read and post here. As a result, I have had a significant number contact me to relate of their own similar experiences. No, I am not going to reveal who such people are, nor violate the confidence they have placed in me by expressing their own experiences to me.
Ilylo and Cherie as well as any other, have my express permission to relate what I have reported of my own situation. Do some people doubt the voracity and accuracy of what I express? Most certainly. Should they? No.
Does this answer your question "if people are excommunicated in the US?" In the interest of fairness, since I began publicly relating my own experience world wide and on the Internet, I have only heard of a very few "ex-workers" who have been also been treated in such a manner since 1986, but many from before that time of my own excommunication. If somehow this account of my own experience(s) has any effect to put a stop to such practices, then I am glad fewer and fewer are having to suffer such horrid consequences as losing some of life's closest family and once considered friends.
Sincerely,
Dennis[/color]
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Post by sharonhargreaves on Jun 1, 2007 1:12:53 GMT -5
Hi Dennis
Thanks for your post - what you say is very true - the Internet has indeed had a huge effect in changing the 'methods' - Little else has changed though. Appreciate you sharing those details - it is sad that there still persist those who term the relating of our experiences as 'bitterness' and a 'bad spirit' and 'not fitting in' Though not all - and so it is worthwhile to open ones heart. Praise God for His Presence and Comfort and Leading when all others have failed. cheerio--- sharon hargreaves
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Post by Gene on Jun 1, 2007 6:14:40 GMT -5
I was told by Texas workers in 1997 that I would be allowed to attend gospel meetings but not fellowship meetings. Is that a partial excommunication? Excommunication with an invitation for restoration? I have attended only one meeting since then (at Casa Grande convention, 2006) and a handful of funerals conducted by workers, which are often very similar to gospel meetings, actually.
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joh
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by joh on Jun 2, 2007 17:13:25 GMT -5
Wow this thread is full of information. I know several people in my area, who have been asked not to take part in meetings and it is because one of the partners have been divorced and remarried. No other reason. I am not sure if that counts as ex communicated or not but I do know that one person was told in to be able to take part in meeting she would need to divorce her present husband.
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Post by recentarriver on Jun 3, 2007 18:37:47 GMT -5
Thanks to all of you who have poured out your hearts relating your experiences with excommunication.
Little did I know when I started this thread nearly a year ago that I could be facing my own excommunication any time now.
I had a "worker visit" about 3 months ago and a follow up was promised but still hasn't taken place yet. During this initial visit I was asked to agree with a certain interpretation of scripture and I refused. I was also asked to share private email with this worker and I refused. Things went downhill to the point that I was accused of following others (who were named) in false doctrine and being told my spirit was the spirit of Antichrist.
Other recent events in my life have also made me aware of the extreme cruelty of some who claim to follow the example and pattern of Christ and all in the name of "Truth".
I pray that the peace of God will rule in my heart and the hearts of others too. RA
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2007 12:24:29 GMT -5
Dear RA
If you are separated in any manner from the 2&2 ministry group, I will be very sorry for the natural consequences you must face, but very glad for the spiritual consequences you WILL face if that occurs. You will become even more aware of what our Lord faced when even His own forsook Him and fled, or distanced themselves from Him. By any excommunication you may face perhaps you, too, will find GOD is dragging you from where you are, to where He wants you.
Nonetheless, I empathize with the anguish you will feel in becoming "outcast." It is nothing new, and likely all of us will continue to practice it to a more or lesser extent. People have been using such techniques to enforce group will upon all members for as long as there is any accounting.
May those dealing with your situation be convicted by righteousness, rather than by any form of personal, or group self-righteousness. May you find GOD's righteousness with you, by His substitute life and death through it all.
In true empathy,
Dennis
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Post by juliette on Jun 4, 2007 19:19:54 GMT -5
RA:
I'm curious... what interpretation of scripture were you asked to agree with? Do you have any idea why the "worker visit" took place in the first place?
We weren't ex'd, we just left. We live in Mpls, MN. As far as I know, people have been told to not take part in meeting for various reasons, but I've never heard of anyone being ex'd around here. Of course, we weren't very hooked into the gossip chain, so who knows.
Juli
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Post by recentarriver on Jun 5, 2007 17:41:51 GMT -5
Dennis Your thoughts have really hit home with me. A good reminder that Christ has experienced this alienation and of being turned away from too. Even from those He loved and shed His blood for. I didn't even think of this aspect. I was just thinking of my own pain. I know that God is leading in all this. He is my Rock. My only hope in this situation. This is just a part of the" process". Psalm 40 says it so much better than I can. Thanks for being here RA
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Post by sharonhargreaves on Jun 5, 2007 20:11:11 GMT -5
A friend of mine was 'ushered out' when he would not agree to salvation only through the workers - one brother condescended to perhaps allow that there might be one or two who could be saved - in the whole world - without hearing a worker - the other brother said 'absolutely none!' could be saved apart from hearing a worker - 'the true ministry '- my friend could not agree to this 'worker visit' and so in effect he was excommunicated as he was not welcome at the meetings unless he supported the 'ministry of the workers'. The sad part is when workers relate these 'visits' they only tell the other friends that the person in question doesn't believe in the ministry - they do not elaborate - if in fact workers went to each friend individually and asked a public declaration many friends would be shocked. Many friends tell me they have never believed many 'others' aren't saved. But if asked to make a declaration publickly it would create quite a chaos I am sure. Subtilty is a horse of many colors.
Family ties have a huge pull for all of us and rightly so that family ties should bind - but yes - when it come to the Friend of Sinners we must remember that there is a Friend that sticketh closer than a brother' Jesus did not even have that comfort and support but tasted 'death' (separation) for every one of us - In the times of such difficult and agonizing choice He will never let us go. He holds us in His Hand and He will not let us go. Praise God for His abiding Friendship. sharon hargreaves
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Post by schroek on Jun 5, 2007 23:34:29 GMT -5
Sharon. Your name sounds so familiar to me. Did you know any of the "friends" from Wisconsin?
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Post by recentarriver on Jun 6, 2007 5:15:52 GMT -5
Hi Juliette Some likely reasons for our "worker visit"... We (my husband & I) have missed most of the gospel meetings since last fall. My appearance is not exactly fitting into the requirements of those "professing" as I wear slacks for work and jeans for practicality around home or occasional trips to town. My hair is no longer long and I wear it down. Our part in mtgs indicates our thoughts are focused on Christ rather then the Workers, gospel meetings, being "exclusive".
The scripture interpretation I was asked to agree with... Phil 2:29 the part about "suffering for His sake". The worker said this was direction for us to give up the pleasures of this life and not take part in anything that is a part of the world. He specifically mentioned appearance, sports.nature, possessions, friends outside of the "truth". His opinion was that this is how we "lay up treasure in Heaven" and deliberately suffer for His sake.
We also discussed what he thought "truth" is and he sees it as the system needed to be "right". It is the "way".
Our conversation jumped around to other verses but this is what sticks in my memory.
The worst part of this entire visit was the worker's extreme anger and belligerence. His attitude of hatefulness was very obvious. When he initiated the conversation the next morning his voice actually woke up my husband. (I was getting ready to go to work.)
Enjoy your day. And thanks for your concern. RA
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Post by juliette on Jun 8, 2007 21:11:42 GMT -5
RA: Thanks for satisfying my curiousity! You sound pretty much like me before I stopped going to meeting. I'm always wondering how the workers handle those "come to Jesus" meetings (isn't that an interesting phrase?), we managed to avoid them. Juli
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jgb
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Post by jgb on Jun 30, 2007 3:28:40 GMT -5
I have to say I have never comprehended this "Dress Code" I know for myself it was extremely humiliateing to go to Convention preps and be asked to help the sisters do things that required them climbing something while I had been asked to steady it for them. I know it was for them too as they were bright red and would not make eye contact whey they got down. I myself do not think God could care less what we do or do not wear as we will all appear before him in spirit not in body so to speak. It would have been a much more enjoyable experience for all involved if the sisters had been allowed to at the very least wear skorts or koolaks or what ever them dress looking pant things are called. Seems to me there can be no semblance of modesty standing on a ladder with a dress on for anyone and everyone walking by to look up and get a peek show. Just my thoughts though. John.
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Post by freespirit on Jul 1, 2007 5:39:46 GMT -5
(((((((((((((((recentarriver))))))))))))))) I am so sorry for your pain. That worker visit sounds horrid. freespirit
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Joe Lynn
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joerlynn@msn.com
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Post by Joe Lynn on Jul 24, 2007 18:04:34 GMT -5
Would anyone here care to post their remembrances of Fern Strouse?. The most wonderful, spiritual, Godly woman that I was ever priviledged to know. She might not have been excommunicated in the strictess sense of the word, but surely in Gods eyes was. Her story can be found in "Reflections" page #682.
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savedbyblood
Junior Member
Eventually we'll figure it all out!
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Post by savedbyblood on Jul 25, 2007 1:20:50 GMT -5
I have read of the excommunications in Canada and heard of some in the USA but nothing specific that I can remember. I do know that the "workers" can be pretty hard and unforgiving. I know from experience that if you ever question them that they will become as angry as a Hell bound false churcher rather than discuss the issue. I have been told (over the phone) that I have "lost the spirit." I have been reminded (twice) that I am a sinner but received no acknowledgment of the same from the "worker" involved. I have been judged on false accusations and then refused (by the "worker") of knowledge of who in the church accused me. Our law says that we may face our accusers but I guess the "workers" law supersedes this! I am now in the shunning phase of my own impending excommunication I think, because I no longer receive answers to my emails and the few I did receive began to sound more and more like Corporate Greetings than edification from "God's Anointed." (Dear XXXXX, Just thinking of you and your's. (signed) Your Worker I'm too stupid or hard headed to let up or kowtow to the "worker's" wishes. I have challenged them to provide scripture showing me where they have the authority to neglect their flock in times of need. No answer. I have unfinished work here so I will not leave the "Truth" and run away. There are so many who are truly lovely, honest, faithful people who are blind to the subtle control and will never know of the heavy handedness of some of the "workers" because they fear to cross them. I have been asked to help change that. I have professed for 37 years. Not born into it but raised in it since my parents found it when I was very young. For so many years, I believed almost anything and everything I was told. I went to High School with professing people and was shamed when one of them told my best friend that he was going to hell because he was a Methodist, but after a good Convention I too realized that we were "exclusive." Many years later after reading and praying for knowledge I began to question this teaching and re-thought (with God's guidance) the place of Christ in our lives. Several years ago a worker spoke in a Gospel meeting and began by stating that "Half of you sitting here are going to hell," and began to speak from the parable of the two in the field and one being taken and one left. "This means professing people," she stated. I started to get up and walk out then. What chance did I have? 50/50? Not good enough!!! Where were the multitude of Heavenly Hosts going to come from? What about the saints clothed in white robes with the Lord and being innumerable? How come hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of Christians have died and are still dying for their faith in countries around the world. The systematic torture and killings in Africa and the middle east and many of the Muslim countries? Are our "workers" willing to die for their beliefs? Where the "Truth's" modern marters? I became saved when two men (strange, huh) at an office building asked me if I was saved. I said that "I sure hope so." We stopped our business right then and we discussed Jesus in a way I had only imagined. They asked if they could pray for me and the troubles I was having. Both of them laid their hands on me and both began to pray. One man prayed in English and the other echoed his prayer in Hebrew. I was already crying because of my own depression but quickly I felt a Power that I had never felt before! I felt as if the Holy Spirit had moved upon me and my burden was lightened. When the prayer was ended all I could do was wipe my tears and shout "Glory to God," and the men echoed a glad "Amen." I had heard so much about Joy and Praise but in 35 years had never felt it. Year after year people would speak in Sunday Meeting of the "Joy" they had in such a solemn dreary tone that I could see no true joy. Now I know why. I know very little of this website but feel I was led here by something bigger than Goggle! ;D I don't like to see the animosity between some but even saved, we are still human. I do not believe people are damned by being in the "Truth" any more than by being a Pentecostal. I do not like the influence the "workers" use to keep you believing you "need them" to be saved but it is a dangerous thing to ask for an explanation and I feel that I should choose the time for my excommunication which might come sooner rather than later now that I'm here. At least I can hide my email address Love the Lord, Peace
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Post by hawk on Aug 7, 2007 0:41:04 GMT -5
Interestingly open-minded.
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