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Post by Seabisquit on Apr 16, 2006 13:57:47 GMT -5
I have a serious question and I'd love to have answers both scriptural and opinions!
Maybe Dennis could help me out.
I struggle with the issue of women being considered "lower" than men. (See the post on the other board about "girls asking guys out" or something like that) Is there some scripture about this?
I know the woman is suppose to be "in subjection" to the man etc and the verse about wives obeying their husbands but does that mean they are lower and not to receive respect?
I REALLY STRUGGLE with the "subjection" thing and the "obeying" thing!!
I see many men (not just 2X2's) using the "subjection" verse and the "obeying" verses as an excuse for mistreating their wives.
What's up with this?
Sorry if my post is disjointed and weird. My thoughts fly faster than I can type.
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Yellow
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by Yellow on Apr 16, 2006 18:47:22 GMT -5
Do you have an NIV Bible? Go to Ephesians 5:21. "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ."
5:22 "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord."
5:23 "For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior."
5:24"Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."
5:25"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 5:26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 5:27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless."
5:28"In the same way husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself."
It says in the study part that nowhere in the bible does it say wives are to obey their husbands.
Submitting is not a one-sided thing but a reciprocal relationship between a husband and a wife.
When a man loves his wife the way Christ loves the church, a wife would do anything for him, gladly.
It says, "To give oneself up to death for the beloved is a more extreme expression of devotion than the wife is called on to make."
Hope this helps you in some way, Seabisquit.
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todd
Senior Member
Posts: 270
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Post by todd on Nov 11, 2006 21:49:14 GMT -5
after the fact the bible was writen by memory and male- books were left out and the catholic church men controlled wanted to keep that control. men and women are like two wings on a bird without the two wings the bird cannot fly. women and men are equal how that happens to work each talk to each other about problems and make decisions together.
study bible history
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Post by loveanurse on Feb 19, 2008 19:42:44 GMT -5
To Todd: I saw a program on TV, I think the History Channel where they discussed the books not chosen for the bible. It was very interesting. It seemed like if it was about a woman it got the cut. I believe men and women complete each other and Jesus in the "head of the household"!
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Post by degem on Feb 19, 2008 19:50:05 GMT -5
I don't feel that a woman should have the lower place. Frankly, it goes against my nature to
be in "subjection" to a man. I have known some men who think that gives them the "right" to
verbally abuse etc. their wives.
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Post by freespirit on Feb 19, 2008 22:38:33 GMT -5
I don't feel that a woman should have the lower place. Frankly, it goes against my nature to be in "subjection" to a man. I have known some men who think that gives them the "right" to verbally abuse etc. their wives. Gem, in my mind being in subjection to one's own husband has nothing to do with women having a lower place or being less important or allowing themselves to be abused either emotionally or physically. It's a long, complicated subject; I talked about it some on a different thread. It has to do with respect and love and honoring your mate. It's about appreciating them for who they are, noticing the good and not making every exchange into a power struggle. I have found that when I am filled up--when I am emotionally, mentally, physically, spiritually full and overflowing--then it is very much in my nature to want to serve my husband's every desire. I married him to make him happy; he married me to make me happy. If I am not full, if I'm overworked, resentful, irritated... well... if mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. And that's a fact. So, I tend to stay very spoiled. And so does he. I ask for what I want. I ask for what I need. I ask what he wants. I ask what he needs. It's his pleasure to spoil me and mine to spoil him as well. From Song of Solomon: "I am my beloved's and my beloved is mine." peace, freespirit |
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Post by Follower on Feb 19, 2008 22:59:57 GMT -5
To Todd: I saw a program on TV, I think the History Channel where they discussed the books not chosen for the bible. It was very interesting. It seemed like if it was about a woman it got the cut. I believe men and women complete each other and Jesus in the "head of the household"! The book of Esther is all about a woman.. If I remember right God is not even mentioned in it. Yes... it would be hard for a male or female to reproduce without the other. So we would be lost without both. The only men that take the submission thing to mean they can demand submission and dish out abuse is nothing but a @#!(^*$. |
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ann
Senior Member
Jesus did NOT say follow people .. He said follow ME!
Posts: 267
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Post by ann on Feb 20, 2008 0:06:49 GMT -5
I heard this once and it really stuck with me as I believe this is what God intended.
Woman was created of a rib from Adam's side - to walk along side him & be his partner. Not created from the bottom of his feet to be walked on....
ann
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Feb 20, 2008 3:15:13 GMT -5
IMHO, if a husband is doing what the Bible tells HIM to do regarding his wife...it's not EVEN a big issue for the wife to respond in kind. When you're not being treated well as a wife and are then told to be in subjection, etc....well, it may still apply that you should be...but it's much harder!
If BOTH are doing their parts and really do love one another...it's not even an issue, imo. M.
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Post by rational on Feb 20, 2008 10:19:54 GMT -5
I don't feel that a woman should have the lower place. Frankly, it goes against my nature to be in "subjection" to a man. I have known some men who think that gives them the "right" to verbally abuse etc. their wives. In another forum on this message board, there is a long list of jokes, most of which degrade, objectify, and/or apply every known negative stereotype known to women yet no one found them objectionable. If it is acceptable to turn women into sexual objects for the sake of a joke it becomes easier objectify them at any time. |
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Post by degem on Feb 20, 2008 11:00:45 GMT -5
I DO NOT FIND FUNNY any jokes that degrade women, mentally or handicapp impaired , racial
or anyone for that matter.
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Post by freespirit on Feb 20, 2008 11:33:37 GMT -5
I DO NOT FIND FUNNY any jokes that degrade women, mentally or handicapp impaired , racial or anyone for that matter. What about jokes that degrade men? ;D freespirit *blinking innocently* |
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Post by degem on Feb 20, 2008 11:46:27 GMT -5
I was including men in the "anyone" category!  gem *blinking innocently" |
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Post by freespirit on Feb 20, 2008 11:57:35 GMT -5
Not even little, itty bitty tiny "innocent" ones?
(thinks to self... I am in SO MUCH TROUBLE! ;D)
fs
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Post by degem on Feb 20, 2008 12:01:09 GMT -5
well I guess I don't mind the bitty, tiny "innocent" ones.
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Post by freespirit on Feb 20, 2008 12:03:28 GMT -5
*whew*
fs
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julio
Junior Member
Posts: 142
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Post by julio on Feb 20, 2008 19:42:08 GMT -5
I found a book several years ago called 'Domestic Violence in the Christian Family' - it was absolutely wonderful - but is out of print, and I don't have a copy. One thing it stated was that abusive husbands use their Christianity as an excuse to abuse. There is even something called 'abuse revival', where a husband who hadn't been going to church starts again. That is part of the abuse cycle. Getting the wife to take him back by him 'accepting Christ'. Then it cycles through again. Fantastically factual and so real - wish I had a copy of that book! It stated if you look at the congregation, and see those husbands and wives, and think 'it's too good to be true', it likely is too good to be true.
My husband believes us to be equal, partners, and fully supports me and loves my soul. He is a genuine Christian man, and I feel very very blessed.
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Post by freespirit on Feb 21, 2008 1:03:25 GMT -5
My husband believes us to be equal, partners, and fully supports me and loves my soul. He is a genuine Christian man, and I feel very very blessed. For the life of me, I can't figure out why women would want to be equal with men.  Surely we can reach higher than that. ;D ;D ;D Being serious now: I'm glad you have a great husband. A good marriage is a blessing indeed. My husband is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO incredible. I am beyond spoiled. Truly. The things he does for me! We've been married 20 years. He still rocks my world. My hero. My lover. My soulmate. Years ago, my husband and I talked about this matter. I was very concerned about these verses on submission. He was baffled by my worry. "But I'd never ask you to do anything that was harmful or bad in any way..." And... you know what... he never has. He's awesome. He lives to make me happy; I live to make him happy. That's why we got married in the first place. All these years later...if he wants me to kiss his feet, I'll be happy to do so. He deserves it and I am madly in love. After this long, I don't think my trust in him is misplaced. Sometimes I wonder why any woman would marry a man whom they would say otherwise about. If he's abusive, ditch the bum. If he's uncaring, unkind, unappreciative, either fix him or send him packing. If he cheats on you, run over him with the car. None of us should put up with crap. Way too many interesting men out there IMO. WAY too many. Men are, after all, a commodity to be bought and sold at market value. *grin*  Their value being what they add to one's life--affection, love, romance, appreciation, building a life together, caring for someone, being cared for and protected in return. You know... the good stuff. I love being married. IMO, more women (men too for that matter) need to understand their own value and not settle for someone who will squish their heart and leave them cold--go for the juicy stuff--somebody who wants to spoil you silly, someone who wants to cater to your every whim, and someone who will appreciate it when you give yourself with a full and open heart--someone who comes home to you every night like clockwork and isn't going to trade you in for a younger model when you turn 40. Those guys are out there. I've met several. I am definitely married to one. I gotta tell the truth here though: I know a lot of good Christian women who have perfectly decent husbands and they spend their time at potluck tearing their men down instead of building them up. They dishonor them. The de-masculinate them. They can't be bothered to take ten steps to bring their beloved coffee. They brag about what they don't do. They rip apart their own homes with their bare hands and then tell me they are jealous of my marriage--they can't *imagine* their husbands doing for them what mine does for me. Sometimes I want to yank them up and tell them to appreciate what they have and they will get more. Nobody flourishes in an environment of criticism. Forget subjection... go for passion. Go for love. Go for the stuff you want. Of all things, our spouses should know that we think they are our everything and we'd die without them. I find the current divorce rate dismaying. Too many people interested in everything but their own spouses, their own relationships. It's almost as if there is some force working to rip families apart. It is a common thing these days for a husband or wife to be asked an "innocent" question--"well, what do YOU think about your spouse's X, Y or Z (new job, mustache, shirt, some bizarre habit)"--and all too often I hear criticism and complaining. A missed opportunity to honor one's spouse publicly. Sad day. If one has issues--discuss it privately or call a trusted girlfriend. Recently I was asked one of these questions...it was about my husband's facial hair and done with a look that said we'll-just-see-how-cool-this-is. No beats missed...I'm like "I LOVE IT! He looks so SEXY." The questioner seemed taken aback. I guess I'm unconventional about my extreme outspoken adoration for my husband. But there it is. (I'm extreme in my adoration of my friends as well. If I wasn't over-the-moon about them, I wouldn't be friends with them in the first place. ;D) It's... unfashionable to be in love with one's spouse it seems. It's unfashionable to appreciate people. But that's the real me. I just can't live with half my heart showing. I know it's going to get stepped on sometimes, but I believe the rewards are worth it. IMO, we shouldn't let those little "innocent" questions become wedges between us. I've seen spouses baited into this stuff at dinner parties. It would be better if they deflected the question if they couldn't answer well. Instead of using the opportunity to increase love, they go away feeling upset with each other.  I think I kinda went on a rant there. Marriage and relationships are a passionate subject for me. I just think (assuming our spouse is a decent person) we ought to honor the one we're married to instead of worrying over whether or not it's going to hurt our pride to consider ourselves subject to him. It's about love. And that's it. JMO.  freespirit |
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elle
Junior Member
Posts: 192
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Post by elle on Feb 21, 2008 1:29:25 GMT -5
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Post by IllinoisGal on Feb 21, 2008 5:23:44 GMT -5
I feel that any man who would treat a lady as if she were less than him in my book is a downright egotistical jerk.
It is not about the man having control over his wife. Its about having her, let him, take care of her. I myself have been married for 28 yrs and I can truly say my husband has never treated me poorly in any way.
So many times I hear the ladies at work do nothing but bad mouth there husbands and I think it sounds so disrespectful. I tell them, " I suppose you just didnt raise the boy right". LOL
I dont believe every couple will see eye to eye on everything but there is a big difference in working out the disagreements with decision making and throwing your weight around just because "Im the man and I said so ".
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Feb 21, 2008 7:25:16 GMT -5
Oh, freespirit, your post made me cry. literally..and you are SO right. on all counts, IMO. M.
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Post by degem on Feb 21, 2008 9:58:56 GMT -5
HURRAY for freespirit's reply! I agree M she is so right on all counts ! Gem |
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Post by deirdre on Feb 21, 2008 15:44:28 GMT -5
Thanks for your posting, Freespirit! I just say Amen to that.
You know what I find so amazing? Husband and wife together, being the image of God...
wow!!
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Post by layla on Feb 23, 2008 16:49:56 GMT -5
Hey Freespirit! Do you happen to have any books out in print? Any magazine articles I need to check out? You definitely have a way with words (and apparently your husband!) Good stuff. Always.
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Post by Bert Rodgers on Apr 3, 2008 17:56:41 GMT -5
Being serious now: I'm glad you have a great husband. A good marriage is a blessing indeed. <snip> words about a lot of things <snip> It's about love. And that's it. JMO. freespirit Let's be realistic. Women have a lower place. Between that lower place and their upper place they can get most men to do whatever they want. And many men are seeking only to get access to that lower place! |
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Post by eyedeetentee on Apr 4, 2008 13:31:02 GMT -5
Interesting post, Free. You say there are plenty of men out there like that. Well, I'd like to meet one. Or you can introduce me to a woman like you. Either way, I'm not seeing it around these parts.
"Way too many interesting men out there IMO. WAY too many. Men are, after all, a commodity to be bought and sold at market value. Their value being what they add to one's life--affection, love, romance, appreciation, building a life together, caring for someone, being cared for and protected in return. You know... the good stuff."
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Post by amazed on Apr 14, 2008 7:35:13 GMT -5
Love your post freespirit. It's good to be reminded that we need to uplift when our tendency can be to do the opposite in the name of "making things better". I need to work on this. Meaning, I can't pick and choose the things I think are worth uplifting in my husband. Even if I don't agree with something I need to make a detour around the subject when others ask me about it. I tend to fall for the bait too often. I love my husband very much and want to be a blessing to him, not an anchor.
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Post by eicherz2 on Apr 19, 2008 0:31:48 GMT -5
Great post FS!
Today is our 5th anniversary and it has been the best 5 years of my life! There isn't a day goes by that I don't thank God for my wonderful man... for bringing us together.
Sherlene
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Surely we can reach higher than that. 
Their value being what they add to one's life--affection, love, romance, appreciation, building a life together, caring for someone, being cared for and protected in return. You know... the good stuff. 
freespirit
