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Post by Sylvestra on Feb 22, 2004 15:54:15 GMT -5
I would be interested in having some discussion about "the Law of God" and the belief of many that "the law has been done away with" by the death of Christ.
I believe anyone believing that the law was done away with are what Paul called "lawless". Of this he said, "God forbid!".
It is my understanding that the law is divided into several divisions, as is civil law. The laws of the Scripture are divided into the Laws, Judgments, Ordinances. It is my understanding that the Laws are still intact, because that is the "mirror that tells us our faces are dirty", but the judgments (punishments), and ordinances were the part that is nailed to the cross with Christ.
The term of "being under the law" was the term used when someone was in the penalty phase of their actions. Once someone was no longer "under the law", it simply meant that they had paid restitution for their crime. However, if they went out and commited crime again, they would again come "under the law" and it most certainly didn't do away with the Law itself!
When we use this term of not "being under the law" as applied to ourselves, it would mean that Christ paid the penalty for our crimes, so WE don't have to do the time! But it does NOT do away with the law that tells us when we have sinned.
If this is the case then, we should be VERY careful in our understanding and use of the idea that "THE LAW" was done away with or promoting such a belief!
What think you?
Regards, Edy
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Post by Brick on Feb 28, 2004 21:35:04 GMT -5
I think that this is an interesting supposition. I would like to see some scripture cited to flesh your theory out. But not the endless barrages hurled at us by Pilgrim.
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Post by pilgrim on Mar 1, 2004 15:13:01 GMT -5
Hey Brick! ;D
Here's a simplistic view of the Law of God.... hope it helps...... I put it in NIV which is more understandable.
(Galatians 3) But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin,
so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ
that we might be justified by faith.
Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
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Post by pilgrim on Mar 1, 2004 15:19:53 GMT -5
Romans 10:4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. *** Romans 7:6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. *** Some say that we are under the "Law of Christ" (which is love). Galatians 5:14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Galatians 6:2 Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. **** Does this help? Make more sense? There are many who believe that Gentiles (any who are not Jews) are not now and never have been under the Law of Moses. The 10 Commandments are PART of the law of Moses. New post coming up.
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Post by pilgrim on Mar 1, 2004 15:25:53 GMT -5
1 Timothy 1:8-11 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made NOT for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. Hope this isn't too many verses again -- I would say that all who are in Christ would not do any of the things mentioned in the 10 commandments. Any in Christ (or living in the Spirit) are respectful and loving --- which is, really, what those commandments are about..... when we look them over.
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Post by pilgrim on Mar 1, 2004 15:44:08 GMT -5
Sorry --- I just HAVE to post these last two verses:
Galatians 1:
4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law,
5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.
6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."
7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.
8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods.
9 But now that you know God--or rather are known by God--how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?
We're free in Christ - not to be slaves to the law again.
See?
OK --- One more and I'll hush:
Romans 5:20-21
The law was added so that the trespass might increase.
But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
so that, just as sin reigned in death,
so also grace might reign through righteousness to
bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
God Bless!
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Post by k245 on Mar 2, 2004 8:53:43 GMT -5
Thank you for the good news Pilgrim!
Amen
Kevin
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Post by pilgrim on Mar 3, 2004 11:19:47 GMT -5
Amen and Thank you, God!
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Post by Brick on Mar 7, 2004 14:09:35 GMT -5
Pilgrim, thanks for your citations. Took me a while to get to this post.
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Post by Sylvestra on Mar 8, 2004 16:26:25 GMT -5
I'm sorry I haven't been responding to this thread that I started. I have been quite ill and just up a while today before another nap. I hope to weigh in later with some more thoughts.
Love, Edy
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Post by pilgrim on Mar 8, 2004 17:37:09 GMT -5
Edy --- Hope you're healthy soon! Up and at 'em!
Brick -- I wish it were easier - to be shorter - or to explain in own words, but the verses are the most simple way to study.
I have a tendency to be wordy - so - trust me - verses are BEST. Heeheehee.
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Post by Sylvestra on Mar 18, 2004 22:52:31 GMT -5
Dear Pilgrim (and anyone else who wants to pitch in here!),
What do you think Jesus meant when, in His "Sermon on the Mount" he didn't put the Law behind him (do away with it), but rather magnified it, or made it even more difficult to keep it?
What do you think Jesus meant in Matt. 5:17-19, when he said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven"?
What do you think was meant in Jer. 31:31-33, when God promised that the LAW would be written on the hearts of the House of Israel?
What do you think John meant in 1 John 3:4, when he said, "Whosoever commiteth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
Didn't Paul also say in one place that if we dismiss the Law, we become "Lawless", God forbid! What do you think he meant by that?
It would be really nice if you could give answers to these in your own words, the way you understand them. Using more bible verses does not answer and are not helpful to me here. Sometimes bible verses are the very BEST answer, but that is not what I need here!
Thanx! Edy
And PS Pilgrim, I am finally feeling much better. I am thankful my daughter and little grandson were here for three weeks so she could help look out for things and help take care of me, as I was trying to take care of our business! Thank you for your thoughts of my health!
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Post by AlistairHenderson on Jul 21, 2004 21:05:21 GMT -5
Just a late contribution,
Sylvestra - I know you hold the Moral Law very highly. So should every Christian! The ceremonial and civil laws as you imply were added to show just how high, holy, perfect and separate God is from sin - to drive home the point of the moral law.
We are not justified by trying to keep the Law (even if written on our heart - being born again). Only the blood of Jesus achieves that for us.
We ARE however I believe sanctified by living out the Law of Love in our lives which goes beyond the written Law (which was our school-master to lead us to Christ, as others have said on here).
This is our growing in grace - the grace of God that both frees AND empowers us to live out the 'intent' of the law, now written in and on our hearts (that includes 'inatent' too LOL!).
So you will find no argument from me that Paul is 1) both proclaiming freedom from condemnation or judgement BY the law (in regard to eternal salvation), but he is also 2) upholding our obligation as Christians to live out the implications of the law in love and freewill in order to grow more like the Law-giver!
Interesting too that EVERY one of the ten commandments was reiterated explicitly by Jesus, except the sabbath day as 'a day'. The clear message of the New Testament seems to me to be that as Christ is our Sabbath, we rest from our own works and let Him work in and through us EVERY DAY.
We had some very clear teaching on this during 2002 at our church - a series on Law and Grace - it was very illuminating!
What think ye?
Love
Alistair Tigger Henderson
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Post by Sylvestra on Aug 2, 2004 8:49:57 GMT -5
Dear ATH,
Your thoughts are very well ordered on this. I enjoyed thinking about the "school master" part of the discussion about God's Law. This is the way it appealed to me:
When we go to (let's say) college, we buy books for each class to learn what is in each book. Then after the class is over and the information is in our minds, we can put the book on a shelf and never pick it up again -- we still have the info. in our minds. HOWEVER, if later in life there is something in them that we need to confirm, or something we've forgotten we can go back to those books and look it up.
I think it is that way with the Law. It is written on our hearts (minds), but there are times when we need to be able to go back to the "text" to refresh the exactness of the subject matter -- such as divorce and re-marriage which comes up frequently.
Jesus said there is not one little bit of the Law that he came to change, so we can depend on what we read in our "text".
We understand that we can never keep every "jot and tittle" of the Law, and it is not what saves us. When we have salvation through Christ only, THEN we can look to the Law of God as a way to order our lives to show how we love hiim and desire to be of service to him.
What do you think?
Regards, Edy
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Post by inatent on Aug 10, 2004 22:54:53 GMT -5
Just a late contribution, Sylvestra - I know you hold the Moral Law very highly. So should every Christian! The ceremonial and civil laws as you imply were added to show just how high, holy, perfect and separate God is from sin - to drive home the point of the moral law. We are not justified by trying to keep the Law (even if written on our heart - being born again). Only the blood of Jesus achieves that for us. We ARE however I believe sanctified by living out the Law of Love in our lives which goes beyond the written Law (which was our school-master to lead us to Christ, as others have said on here). This is our growing in grace - the grace of God that both frees AND empowers us to live out the 'intent' of the law, now written in and on our hearts (that includes 'inatent' too LOL!). So you will find no argument from me that Paul is 1) both proclaiming freedom from condemnation or judgement BY the law (in regard to eternal salvation), but he is also 2) upholding our obligation as Christians to live out the implications of the law in love and freewill in order to grow more like the Law-giver! Interesting too that EVERY one of the ten commandments was reiterated explicitly by Jesus, except the sabbath day as 'a day'. The clear message of the New Testament seems to me to be that as Christ is our Sabbath, we rest from our own works and let Him work in and through us EVERY DAY. We had some very clear teaching on this during 2002 at our church - a series on Law and Grace - it was very illuminating! What think ye? Love Alistair Tigger Henderson Alistair, I just read this thread for the first time, and was about to write almost the same things that you did, but you covered it very well. In short form, there are two sets of laws: the old was intended to lead to the new, and when that was accomplished the old law was no longer needed. The old law says, "You must." The new law says, "You will because you love to." inatent
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Post by Sylvestra on Oct 10, 2004 18:39:34 GMT -5
Dear Inatent:
You said, "The old law says, "You must." The new law says, "You will because you love to."
Excellently put!
Regards, Edy
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Post by botany on Oct 11, 2004 16:58:34 GMT -5
God's law, according to: Old Testament: "Don't piss me off!" New Testament: "Be nice to people. Or else you'll burn in Hell!" andy
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Post by Ed on Oct 31, 2004 16:20:40 GMT -5
Hi Andy, I see you realize there will be ultimate justice and you've discovered God really doesn't change. God's "eye" is on even seemingly insignificant sparrows, and He knows how many hairs are on your head, yet He must punish those who love evil. Jesus gives us the inspiration to "be nice to people". Ed
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Angela
Senior Member
Posts: 317
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Post by Angela on Nov 23, 2004 16:39:29 GMT -5
God's law, according to: Old Testament: "Don't piss me off!" New Testament: "Be nice to people. Or else you'll burn in Hell!" andy Not quite -God is not like that. The gospel was preached in OT times too. God doesn't change . He draws us with everlasting love. Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, [saying], Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. And notice that is in the OT. He wants to give us a new heart so that we can keep His law and be loving like He is. Ezekiel36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. Again in the OT. God doesn't expect us to do what we aren't capable of and He doesn't leave us like that either .He changes us and the weekly Sabbath is a symbol of our relationship of rest in Him .Therefore we keep it.Unlike many of the others OT laws it was given before sin entered and continues even after sin is ended . Isaih66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. Check out Revelation 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. That includes the 4th one.
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sarahjane
Junior Member
"Think it'll work? It'd take a miracle. Bye-bye!"
Posts: 117
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Post by sarahjane on Oct 9, 2005 22:15:10 GMT -5
Hey everyone! I have also been thinking a lot about the law of God lately. I read that same passage in Matthew where Jesus says he has not come to do away with the law but to fulfill it. I became very confused and have been trying to figure this all out. While I know that we will never quite fully understand everything, I was grateful to read what you all had to say on the subject. Thankyou! My husband mentioned something he heard one time: In a comparison to other religions, Christianity is proactive. Most other religions say, "Do not do this. Do not do to others what you don't want done to you." Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Keeping the law for us is something we want to do. We want to help others and do good because we love God and want to please him. If we are doing something that hurts others, that becomes sin, and is breaking the law. It seems like all the little details in the OT law had a general message behind them, what I think you might mean when you say the moral law. God doesn't want us to hurt each other. The old law set all the specifics out, so that people would be reminded of what hurts others. They may not have realized it. Then Jesus came and showed us what it meant to have the law written on our hearts, and how that should make us act. Ok, I'll stop talking so much for now! I'm a new member, and I don't want you all to think I'm a crazy know-it-all, because I'm not!!! Sincerely, Sarah
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Post by spiderman on Jan 3, 2006 20:57:53 GMT -5
That was very nice, sarahjane. And it appears that no one thought you were a crazy know-it-all or they would probably have very sweetly let you know! (By the way, this is mj here and not spidey.
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Post by horsewoman on Jan 10, 2006 18:26:25 GMT -5
My realization of the OT God comes from these verses in Hosea:
"But then I will win her back once again. I will lead her out into the desert and speak tenderly to her there. I will return her vineyards to her and transform the Valley of Trouble into a gateway of hope. She will give herself to me there, as she did long ago when she was young, when I freed her from her captivity in Egypt." Hosea 2:14, 15 (NLT)
These verses are a part of my testimony. They speak to me of a loving God who spoke to my heart and led me into desert places to do so. I can finally grasp God as a Father who loves me so deeply. He went everywhere, searching for me. He wouldnt give up on me. I feel I am a redeemed Gomer. I hope that my sharing a bit of myself and my growth and healing blesses all of you. In this way, I am answering the question: " May we know a bit more about horsewoman?" Thank you for letting me share. As always I welcome any thoughts on this post!
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Post by ella19 on Aug 8, 2006 18:19:04 GMT -5
Hello All!! I am new to this forum and to this post, really. I found this strand so inspirational. I just wanted to add that without the law, we would have no genuine reason to repent as Jesus says we must. Without the law we are not able to understand the True meaning if the Cross and what Jesus did for us. The Law brings true repentance, that way we can be forgiven and washed clean by the blood of Christ.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2006 22:32:45 GMT -5
If anyone would like to know how my mind encompasses this topic, I can sum it up from artistic observation. In Col. 2 and also in Heb. 10, The law is described as a "shadow." The artistic observation? Shadow lies on top of an object as well as opposite light. Shadow lends detail. With out shadows, our eyes could not perceive depth, distance, and detail as we do.
Personally, the idea "done away with" is repulsive to me, whereas "fullfilled" is not. The shadow of the Law has revealed details to me about my Lord that nothing else could if it were not there for me to consider. Because my Lord, Yehu'shuah (Jesus) is the substance, it is logical that the substance is reality and not a shadow.
dj
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Post by sharonhargreaves on May 31, 2007 15:14:23 GMT -5
Charles Price from the Peoples Church in Toronto, Canada is awesome about the law of God. The Law is the autobiography of God - have no other gods - Because God alone is the GREAT I AM shalt not steal - because God is not a thief- not commit adultery - because is True etc. gives you the idea - What were commands in the O/T. becomes promises to a born again believer indwelt by the Holy Spirit - he empowers us to 'not steal' 'not commit adultery' 'not worship any other gods'
The old law was for the purpose that mankind would learn we CANNOT keep the law - Moses found that out when he arrived at the foot of the mountain - Exodus 32 - they had already broken the first commandments - making gods of the jewells they wore and further said of the calf and proclaiming these 'gods had brought them up out of the land of Egypt. No wonder Moses broke the stones - also Moses experience some personal convicitons about thou shalt not MURDER! they were all equally unable to fulfill the law and indeed Jesus made it clear in the New Testament that the heart and intent would also come into judgement - If we don't like the fact that sin was imputed to all mankind through Adams sin and born separation from God we can a thousand times more rejoice in that Christ alone fulfilled the righteous demands of the law and through His perfect fulfilling we can be JUSTIFIED through Faith in Him. Not of works - lest we pat our selves on the back! sharon hargreaves
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Post by sharonhargreaves on May 31, 2007 15:32:26 GMT -5
alistar henderson---- Thanks for your post - wonderful - Charles Price did also mention that about the Sabbath not being reiterated in the NT because as you said - he fulfilled it perfectly and we rest in Christs finished work. thanks sharon
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