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Post by ciapastor on Feb 9, 2004 11:49:30 GMT -5
How the Two-By-Twos Differ From Orthodox Christian Beliefs in what they do NOT believe . . . .
They do NOT believe in the Triune God
They do NOT believe in the deity of Jesus; that Jesus is God the Son.
They do NOT believe in the deity of the Holy Spirit; that the Holy Spirit is God the Spirit.
They do NOT believe the Holy Spirit permanently indwells every believer.
They do NOT believe in the finished work of Christ.
They do NOT believe that Jesus came to be our substitute in His life and death.
They do NOT believe that man is born in sin.
They do NOT believe in eternal security.
They do NOT believe in the priesthood of all believers.
They do NOT believe conversion can take place through the written Word without human agency.
They do NOT believe one can know they are saved in this lifetime.
They do NOT believe salvation can be attained without going through their ministers (the workers).
They do NOT believe in total reliance upon Jesus' shed blood for salvation.
They do NOT believe that salvation is an unconditionally free gift of God.
They do NOT believe salvation solely by grace through faith in Jesus, not of works. (Eph 2:8,9)
One former member of The Church Without A Name wrote:
"In all my years with this group I never heard the message of the Cross preached. I never heard how Christ died in my place and how that through one man, Adam, sin entered into the world and man was separated from God. I never heard how that through one man, Jesus Christ, man was reconciled to God through the shedding of His blood on the Cross. They do not point people to the Cross but to them. They preach that Christ died only for them in their group, for those who follow ‘the workers’, and not for the whole world."
"The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the Lord shall be safe" Prov. 29:25
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Alan
Junior Member
Posts: 107
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Post by Alan on Feb 9, 2004 21:51:57 GMT -5
There are others boards for you to post this on as well if you like.
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Post by Sylvestra on Feb 22, 2004 15:36:59 GMT -5
Also, there are some things I've read about that NEITHER many of the F & W or many main stream Christian churches believe. (I say MANY of each because there is such a wide difference in beliefs in either organization!) I'd love to hear others comments on these!
Here are some to start with:
1. Every soul IS NOT immortal, that the wicked are not immortal. See #2
2. Hell is NOT a place where souls burn forever and ever and ever......
a. Some believe that the "wicked" are snuffed out in the process of their punishment and therefore their punishment ends with the death of their souls.
b. Some believe that the "wicked" are punished according to their wickedness, and then are restored to serve the LORD.
3. "Heaven" is a place where God dwells, but we will not dwell there, but will dwell forever on the earth and other planets to finish the work God began and planned for us to do in the beginning.
a. That the "overcomers" will only be going out to meet Christ as he returns to his earthly kingdom.
b. Kind of does away with the "rapture theory"!
4. That souls do not enter directly into their eternal home, as in going straight to heaven or hell, but are "asleep" in the grave until they are resurrected.
a. This belief would do away with souls haunting the earth.
Hmmm...this should be a good start.
Regards, Edy
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Post by pilgrim on Mar 8, 2004 21:50:32 GMT -5
Edy, This one: That souls do not enter directly into their eternal home, as in going straight to heaven or hell, but are "asleep" in the grave until they are resurrected. Was actually taugt by the 2x2s the entire time I was involved with them. The "asleep" needs to be clarified in the Greek -- to find the true meaning of the passages in Scripure.
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Post by pilgrim on Mar 8, 2004 22:00:50 GMT -5
That the "overcomers" will only be going out to meet Christ as he returns to his earthly kingdom.
Jesus states:
"My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36)
*** For the rapture theory. Just for curosity sake, look up "secret rapture" and there is a writing titled, "The Not So Secret Rapture" which tells how the whole rapture teaching started. The rapture teaching is a fairly new teaching.
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Post by pilgrim on Mar 15, 2004 10:47:21 GMT -5
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and ladymongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
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Post by pilgrim on Mar 15, 2004 10:53:52 GMT -5
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
Mark 9:43-48 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
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Post by Sylvestra on Mar 18, 2004 23:01:06 GMT -5
Dear Pilgrim,
In one post you discussed for a bit, "That the "overcomers" will only be going out to meet Christ as he returns to his earthly kingdom.
Jesus states:
"My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36)"
At the time Jesus mentioned these words, His kingdom was not here. Scripture also tells us in Revelation that the Kingdom would come down from Heaven, as well as the fact that the overcomers would be ruling over the nations with Christ HERE on this earth. At some point the glory of God will fill the WHOLE earth as a result of this rulership. Daniel's prophecy of the "iron man" tells us that the final kingdom (God's Kingdom) would break to pieces all the nations and fill the whole earth.
This would indicate to me that Jesus is returning HERE with the overcomers, after the resurrection of the overcomers and meeting him in the air.
What think you?
Regards, Edy
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Post by inatent on Apr 16, 2004 20:25:44 GMT -5
They do NOT believe in the Triune God
This term has never been defined to the satisfaction of any doctrine that I know of, so I prefer to avoid using it. In any case, if we needed to know a doctrine by this or some similar name, we would find it in the Bible somewhere.
They do NOT believe in the deity of Jesus; that Jesus is God the Son.
A completely false statement. I hear in many of all sorts of meetings about Jesus being the Son of God, and that we can be saved only by believing in Him!
They do NOT believe in the deity of the Holy Spirit; that the Holy Spirit is God the Spirit.
Not sure what this means, and from discussions among religious people all over the world I don't think anyone else does either.
They do NOT believe the Holy Spirit permanently indwells every believer.
Not sure. The words "believer" and "permanently" are subject to interpretation
They do NOT believe in the finished work of Christ. I doubt you mean what this implies, because if Christ's work were finished, then there would be no further need to preach the gospel.
They do NOT believe that Jesus came to be our substitute in His life and death.
Everyone I know accepts this. I do not often hear the word "substitute", but that is what redemption implies and I have heard that many times. It is not unusual for someone in a meeting to cry in thankfulness for all that Jesus did so that we could be saved.
They do NOT believe that man is born in sin.
Except for Jesus, I presume. I don't recall ever hearing this discussed one way or the other.
They do NOT believe in eternal security. Too long a discussion to get into.
They do NOT believe in the priesthood of all believers. Incorrect, as far as I know. Not sure how you define "priesthood" but I have always been taught that we are all strive to be like Jesus, who is our High Priest, and that no one is above another.
They do NOT believe conversion can take place through the written Word without human agency. Before I professed (about 37 years ago) I had this question, so I went to an older worker who made it clear to me that, in order for no one to be without excuse, it was necessary that everyone have some opportunity whether there were anyone to speak to him about it or not. I think that covers the "written word" as well as a host of other possibilities. I will concede that there is a lot of misunderstanding about this matter.
They do NOT believe one can know they are saved in this lifetime.
Not quite. Few would say that others cannot know, but they may not be so sure about themselves. This comes from both humility and habit. If the former, then I have no problem with it. If the latter, then it is akin to hypocrisy and I deplore it. But then I can never be sure that I can tell the difference, so I do not judge such matters.
They do NOT believe salvation can be attained without going through their ministers (the workers).
Previously discussed, but to amplify a bit, if God sends a messenger to someone and he refuses to listen to it, surely he will not be saved unless God chooses to give him another opportunity.
They do NOT believe in total reliance upon Jesus' shed blood for salvation.
Not true. I don't know anyone who thinks they have the ability to save themselves.
They do NOT believe that salvation is an unconditionally free gift of God.
There are so many conditions listed throughout the New Testament that I don't see any point in discussing this.
They do NOT believe salvation solely by grace through faith in Jesus, not of works. (Eph 2:8,9)
Redundant
One former member of The Church Without A Name wrote:
"In all my years with this group I never heard the message of the Cross preached.
He must have gone to very few meetings. I have heard it many times.
I never heard how Christ died in my place and how that through one man, Adam, sin entered into the world and man was separated from God.
ditto
I never heard how that through one man, Jesus Christ, man was reconciled to God through the shedding of His blood on the Cross.
ditto
They do not point people to the Cross but to them. They preach that Christ died only for them in their group, for those who follow ‘the workers’, and not for the whole world."
I have neither heard nor believe such things.
"The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the Lord shall be safe" Prov. 29:25
Amen
inatent
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Post by Ed on Apr 17, 2004 20:57:56 GMT -5
Inatent, your post shows that you misunderstand many of the issues. For example,
Of course you've heard Jesus called the Son of God. But the statement was, workers do not believe Jesus is God the Son. Before you jump to the conclusion that its "a completely false statement", you need to do some homework.
This problem is repeated, but one more example.
What is the gospel according to Inatent? Its one thing to hear people talk about grace, another to see it in action toward the least, last and lost.
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Post by Ed on Apr 18, 2004 20:02:04 GMT -5
The WORKERS suggest that the Holy Spirit is a force.
The BIBLE teaches that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead, that He is God the Holy Spirit. (Acts 5:3,4;)
The WORKERS suggest that the BODY of Christ are all those who follow the workers. (i.e. all those in the 2x2 system)
The BIBLE teaches that the BODY of Christ are all those who believe and follow Jesus. (1 Corinthians 12:27; Ephesians 1:22,23; Colossians 1:18; 24)
The WORKERS suggest that the WORD OF GOD is a dead book unless made alive by one of their workers.
The BIBLE teaches that the WORD OF GOD is alive and powerful and that God reveals Himself to us through the Bible, which is God's Word.(Hebrews 4:12)
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Post by Geoff on May 24, 2004 15:49:26 GMT -5
I have to disagree with the first post.
They do NOT believe in the Triune God
By this I assume you mean that God is in 3 persons. While there are differences of understanding, this is widely beleived.
They do NOT believe in the deity of Jesus; that Jesus is God the Son. Yes they do. There could be some differences, especially in north America it seems.
They do NOT believe in the deity of the Holy Spirit; that the Holy Spirit is God the Spirit. As above, yes they do.
They do NOT believe the Holy Spirit permanently indwells every believer. Yes they do.
They do NOT believe in the finished work of Christ. By this I assume you mean that Jesus has done "enough" on the cross for our salvation. This is beleieved.
They do NOT believe that Jesus came to be our substitute in His life and death. Yes they do. That his was the sacrifice that was sufficient.
They do NOT believe that man is born in sin. Oh yes we do. Completely sinful man.
They do NOT believe in eternal security. Correct. There is a general beleif that it is possible to loose salvation, not by means of another, but by our own choices.
They do NOT believe in the priesthood of all believers. By this I assume you mean the requirement for all beleivers to spread the word? Yes we do.
They do NOT believe conversion can take place through the written Word without human agency. Almost right. Correct that its normal to be with assistance, but not exclusively. Can be soley by the written word.
They do NOT believe one can know they are saved in this lifetime. Yes we can know if we are saved, but also that its possible (unlikely but possible) to loose that.
They do NOT believe salvation can be attained without going through their ministers (the workers). Incorrect.
They do NOT believe in total reliance upon Jesus' shed blood for salvation. Yes they do.
They do NOT believe that salvation is an unconditionally free gift of God. Yes they do
They do NOT believe salvation solely by grace through faith in Jesus, not of works. (Eph 2:8,9) Yes, this is also beleived.
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Post by content on Dec 21, 2004 18:52:25 GMT -5
ciapastor, i would like to know how you came to those conclusions.
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Post by bryan2 on Dec 21, 2004 19:58:00 GMT -5
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Post by bryan2 on Dec 21, 2004 19:58:48 GMT -5
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Post by AliC44 on Mar 8, 2005 19:19:37 GMT -5
Hello! I am not a member of the Church With No Name but I do find what I read here very interesting. I am a Christian, I believe in salvation by faith alone in Christ alone. I hope I am not offending anyone but I can't help but find myself confused by your faith. I read that you do not know whether one has achieved eternal life while on earth. When I became a Christian, I had a peace in my heart that was from God- I knew my sins had been forgiven and my guilt was removed. I realise that everyday I still sin, because I am still human- but Jesus had taken them away. It is because Jesus did this for me that I love him and serve him. I do not serve him in order to get salvation- I serve him because of what He did for me. You claim that everything you believe comes directly from the Bible, sure it says that salvation "is not of works, lest any man should boast". As you can see I'm no great theologian But anyway, I have a friend who belongs to the church with no name and I have never once heard her mention it. Surely if she was happy about what Jesus has done for her, she would want to tell others- but when I talk to her, there is no mention of her faith-ever! Also her mum forbids her from watching films/dvds- personally i dont see anything wrong with watching innocent films as long as theres not too much filth in them, but some of the ones she watches behind her mum's back I wouldn't watch because there's so much rubbish in them. The upright way in which two by two's live is probably good for any Christian, as the Bible says"Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind" however, I do find that the motivation behind this (i.e. to gain salvation) is wrong. I was also wondering what different methods the church with no name uses for spreading its beliefs and what exactly happens at conventions and house meetings? Thank you for reading my post, please do not take offence, this is simply what I believe and I hope people will reply!
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juju
Senior Member
Posts: 263
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Post by juju on Oct 4, 2005 17:18:53 GMT -5
Why is no one replying to AliC44? Everyone has so much to say, even when not asked their opinion. Now they are getting asked....and everyone is silent? AliC44......what is A sin you have committed today? I have left the 2x2's, and am attending a house bible study not affiliated with any religion. I hear them talking about SIN all the time, but am not sure what regular christians call SIN? BTW.....conventions and house meetings......The attendees are supposedly worshipping/fellowshipping with God. lots of quietness.......morbid hymns sung, prayers repeated from last week, a testimony in which you can only say what you know will be accepted by the group, emblems for those who are baptised (in the way)...and then more morbid singing of morbid hymns........oh yeah.....and the kids getting spanked when they dont sit quietly! It's actually quite a riot....you should go with your friend sometime.
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Post by Seabisquit on Apr 16, 2006 13:47:53 GMT -5
AliC44,
Unfortunately, your friend may not be telling anyone about what Jesus has done for her because she has never been told what Jesus did for her. All she may know is what her ministers tell her and that is that she must belong to their group in order to get to heaven.
I agree with you that salvation is by faith in Christ alone. Isn't it a glorious thing that Christ has done for us by removing our sin? How can we help but love Him?
Amazed by Grace, Seabisquit
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Post by seekingtruth on Jul 8, 2006 10:07:12 GMT -5
I'm pretty new here and am learning each time I come to read. Regarding the trinity I asked my 91 year old mother who has professed since she was 16 if she had ever heard a worker preach about that. "Well, no, not that I can remember." So then I asked what she thought about that and her response was, "That's what the Bible says!" So when something isn't addressed a lot of these older folks spend a lot of time reading and praying and they aren't as blind as some would think they are. It just reaffimed for me that when people keep a direct line to God He helps them see. However, she is steeped in the thou shalts and the thou shalt nots.
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todd
Senior Member
Posts: 270
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Post by todd on Nov 21, 2006 12:59:26 GMT -5
GOOD POSTS above - thank you
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Post by pianoman on Jul 15, 2008 18:10:36 GMT -5
For AliC44 What was intended to happen at the meetings and conventions was to get together and share the spirit of God with like minded individuals. The Human side and power and greed some how took over and ruined a large part of that, but you will find peace and a good spirit at some of the gatherings.
Regarding works, we know that we can not do anything to "earn" salvation, because it is a gift from God through grace. Works, in my understanding, is the battle that Paul refereed to when he was nearing the end and stated, " I have fought the good fight" and he talks about the crown that is laid up for him. I think that this is misunderstood and over looked a lot.
If we yield our lives to God daily and live according to the things that he lays on our hearts as a result of prayer, reading and seeking truth, we will have the feeling that Paul had. Too many want to complicate it and make every little thing into a major argument and even some churches are founded on the mention of one little thing that is only mentioned once and that is usually in passing, but some people will grab on to that and it becomes the foundation for their church. Since our relationship with God is so personal and so important, we need to ask and be informed, we need to seek and find, knock and have it opened unto us and we can hardly go wrong if we have an open heart and seek to have the mind of Christ. I hope this will answer some of your questions, but PM me if I can answer anything else for you, if you find me credible and to let you know, I am leaving the "church with no name" after 55 years but have a pretty deep knowledge of what they believe and some of the controversy that surrounds them. I am not a bitter soul that will knock every thing that they do, because there are some good things and good people there. Good luck and may God bring you Peace.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2008 9:07:03 GMT -5
There is not a single truthful statement in any of the above sentences. Not one.
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Post by Rob O on Jul 23, 2008 20:10:05 GMT -5
Bert v2.1 - now with omniscience
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Post by ilylo on Jul 25, 2008 12:08:19 GMT -5
Bert v2.1 - now with omniscience ...which was issued even though v1.0 was widely known for being an unstable release.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2008 9:29:55 GMT -5
Beats a lot of the vaporware around here!
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Post by MsMarie on Aug 1, 2008 11:13:26 GMT -5
The church with no name and no written doctrine for its members - no wonder there is such a wide variation and dissention about beliefs even within the organisation as we can read in this thread. I was unaware of any of this until I found the internet, saw the differences from area to area and country to country. Learnt about the history and founding - what a mess it all is! I have now left after more than twenty years, but have no anger or regret except for leaving some very dear folks. I regard it as a learning process in my Christian walk.
My daughter came up with an interesting theory that perhaps the internet will be the means of the gospel reaching the ends of the earth spoken of - she is convinced time is short...
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Post by rational on Aug 1, 2008 14:03:05 GMT -5
she is convinced time is short... And people have been saying this for the past 2000 years. Short is really relative. All signs say we are about 1/2 way through the life of the sun - 4.5 billion years. So in 5-6 billion years the sun will heat up and the oceans will boil. Now that could be considered a long time when compared to human life (or existence!) or a short time when compared to eternity. In any case, we can probably kiss the earth good-bye. Prediction of the end times are numerous and, for the vast majority, inaccurate. Of course there are some who believe: Mark 13:32 — But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
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Post by MsMarie on Aug 2, 2008 12:18:04 GMT -5
Yes, I didn't say I was convinced. It really doesn't make any difference, it will come when appointed without any guessing from us.
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