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Post by Pamela on Apr 5, 2008 11:47:57 GMT -5
Every now and then you hear a brother worker spelling out what he thinks "woman's place" to be and how she must obey her husband. Then you hear of difficulties in young marriages.
This kind of talk causes friction. Why can't workers leave young couples to work out their own affairs together?
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Post by Sylvia on Apr 7, 2008 18:20:54 GMT -5
Well,........ they used to claim that a woman's place is in the home. Obviously that doesn't apply now for some strange reason.
Why has this changed?
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Post by still believe on Apr 11, 2008 14:12:21 GMT -5
Some still believe that the woman's place is in the home, more than that, thye believe her place is in the kitchen with her little apron on, ready to serve.
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Post by freespirit on Apr 11, 2008 15:09:17 GMT -5
Some still believe that the woman's place is in the home, more than that, thye believe her place is in the kitchen with her little apron on, ready to serve. HEY!!! Being a domestic diva is a HIGH FREAKING CALLING!!! It's my privilege to stay home, serve my friends and family. It kinda irritates me when what I do is picked on so I gotta warn you to shut the bleep up before I smack you with my spatula. ;D And give me an apron and sit here at my table and have a scone! I make some darn good brucetta bread too with my homegrown basil and an orange/ginger salmon that will knock your socks off. My husband works from 6:30am to 6:30pm or more. I did that once, and I wouldn't wish that on ANY woman! I am way happy to be at home, making my own schedule, pursuing my personal dreams and goals, playing with my kid, doing creative stuff, cooking up a batch of homemade love in the kitchen and otherwise making my house into a home! It's a luxury and one I am grateful to have! peace, freespirit
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2008 16:01:51 GMT -5
I once listened to a brother Worker preaching against women. It was quite funny, really.
They were sister workers and they quickly jumped away causing him to fall flat on his back !
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Post by Choice choice on Apr 11, 2008 21:52:20 GMT -5
Freespirit, do you not have a choice?
Are you doing what you do because of workers"teaching one particular verse in the Bible, or have you chosen to stay at home and rear your family.
Read the post. No one is criticising you or good mothers in general.
The post is about workers preaching against women, women's right to choose, etc.
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Post by freespirit on Apr 12, 2008 1:18:11 GMT -5
nope, no choice at all. I'm naked, locked in the house and have to wear manacles. ;D ;D ;D
I've said a billion times before that just because some worker says something/has an opinion/gives advice about a subject doesn't mean one has to follow the advice. Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything but, good grief, most people (even workers *gasp*) do get to have an opinion I'd think.
ummm... actually, that post *is* critical toward women who cook, wear aprons and serve their families--because the tone is snide and calling it "her little apron" makes it sound like there is something somehow degrading about being in the kitchen and serving food to the people one loves the most.
Families are important! Home is the BEST place! Sheesh. I can't believe society has come to thinking that some other choice besides GETTING to stay home would be better. It's a privilege!
I see plenty of women who live these crazed, stressed out lives with no time for themselves, no time to sit, no time to think, no time to take a walk or work on their own personal goals and no energy for their families or their friends. They run around like maniacs trying to do it all, have it all and end up with a very poor existence.
I'm not saying that all women who work 9 to 5 jobs are doing that...I guess it totally depends on if one LOVES their career or not maybe... but I sure see a lot of them. They aren't exactly working in their dream job.
I guess if that's their "choice" well... okie, dokie... but in my mind, encouraging women to stay home isn't about speaking *against* women, it's about telling them they don't have to be superwoman anymore; they can kinda relax a little.
I realize that not all women even have this option... I'm very, very grateful that I do have it....
So, as for me, I like the good life: good food, good friends, a good glass of wine, time to read a book, paint a picture, listen to music, plow a garden, take a class, learn to dance, write a song, work on a big major life dream or spend long afternoons at the zoo with my kid. Yeah! Why would *any* minister preach something besides living the good life? What to most people look forward to... the weekend or Monday morning?
Just my two cents and a little food for thought.
peace, fs
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2008 6:10:14 GMT -5
Good perspective Freespirit. Long may you enjoy it. Sometimes we don't appreciate our blessings, but you seem to appreciate this one. That appreciation just might help it prevail a good while longer.
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Post by Why so defensive on Apr 13, 2008 8:37:05 GMT -5
Why so defensive Freespirit?
What has happened to your freespirit?
Is this a 2x2 weakness, to apply everything narrowly to oneself instead of where the cap fits? No need to jump in as one offended. If the cap doesn't fit it is not for you!!
This post is about the damage done by workers who preach ( and we are not talking about just voicing opinions as you suggest so defensively. ) The post is about workers, usually brothers who preach from the platform and from the stance of authority and advocate the place of women to be "with the little apron" saying that their place is limited. These same workers uphold and preach obedience of the wife to the husband. They do not remember Paul's balanced writing "let each think of the other as better than themselves" and other writings.
Couples need to work out their relationships using their own conscience and understanding of God's word. It has been severely damaging to many relationships when this kind of advice has been given as gospel, when if fact it is grossly misunderstood and out of context. When you have been closely involved with those who have made shipwreck because of forceful teaching along these lines and seen people lose out, you may understand where this is coming from.
No one is demeaning the role of a great mother who sacrifices herself for a family. Some people are cut out for certain roles while others are not. Teaching Scripture as rigid rules has proved very damaging over years. There will always be exceptions.
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second class citizens
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Post by second class citizens on Apr 13, 2008 15:32:01 GMT -5
Brother workers against women is not just about mothers staying at home or having a career.
The problem with the way a certain type of brother worker speaks against women, criticises women, picks on women, demeans women reveals a great deal about the 2x2 doctrine.
They create and maintain a double standard where women are expected to be subservient to men and claim it as Bible teaching.
Regardless of how Jesus acted and showed no bias, they uphold Old Testament belief which they claim entitles them to put women down. Paul continued some of this in some of his letters.
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Post by freespirit on Apr 14, 2008 19:46:57 GMT -5
What has happened to your freespirit? I've been thinking about this question. Recently, my husband had a weeklong seminar and, because I don't have a traditional job, I was free to pack up and go with him. This is what he did from 9 to 9: sat in meetings. This is what I did: played on the beach with my kid, read a book. Um. So... I dunno... maybe I lost it at the beach. Every morning my husband must be dressed in a uniform prescribed for him by someone else. He must leave the house by 6:30. He is then required to go to face traffic so that he can go to a job where he sits in meetings, types reports, deals with government officials and frustrating people all day long. He gets home around 6:30pm and, honestly, he looks kinda tired. In the meantime, every morning I am free to get dressed or free to stay in my pjs. I'm free to work on my creative endeavors or I'm free to sit and play on the Internet. I'm free to eat lunch with a friend or spend long hours on the phone. Nobody tells me what to wear or where to go or what to do. I'm free to play it by ear and make it up as I go along. I'm free to read a book and I'm free to plant a garden. I'm free to volunteer at school (or any other place.) I'm free to go get a massage and I'm free to go to a dance class. I plan my own schedule so I'm free to get stuff done and I'm free to rest. Quite frankly, from a freespirit's point of view, what my husband does sounds like sheer and utter hell. Every day he goes. Day in. Day out. Even when it's raining. Last week I went to get a pedicure and drank champagne in the early afternoon... they NEVER let my husband do that at work. Like... NEVER. The day before that I went to Bed, Bath and Beyond and Target. They don't let him do that at work either. Like... NEVER. He tells me he likes his job. I dunno. I'd rather go to the beach. But... shhhhhhhhh.... about this stuff, okay? Because I have him convinced that what I do is sheer, hardcore, grueling, hideous sacrifice. I mean... his coffee gets made, his shirts ironed and his bed made. For crying out loud, that's at least 15 minutes of slave labor right there. And I cook... well... there's AT LEAST another 45 minutes, maybe an hour, more if you count the shopping--but then, even people who work have to grocery shop so I dunno if that really counts or not. I'm sure there is other stuff too. Just last week, I had to run an errand for him. So... if he's reading here... He's killing me! I'm dying here! It's heinous the things I have to do! Degrading! Totally! How dare anyone ask these things of me! ;D Once I had a job like his... I really liked it. I was respected and I made a lot of money. But I'd still rather go to the beach. I thought maybe when my kid got bigger, I'd go back to work life. But... that 8 to 5 stuff kinda sounds like drudgery. I might have to wear pantyhose. *shudder* Work (that traditional work stuff anyway--I'm not talking about your dream job) is IMO... what people do that either *have* to (i.e. they really need the money) or can't think of something better to do. So, I guess I'll go build a pond in the backyard. Maybe I'll write a book. Because that sounds a lot more fun. At least to me it does. And then I'm going to plan out a really nice meal for my husband and make sure he feels totally spoiled when he gets home--because I appreciate what he does and he is really, really, really good to me and I do NOT want to lose my place at home. It's a blessing. As far as being home not suiting some people... maybe they just haven't learned the art of creative living yet. Maybe they don't have enough hobbies or interests or friends or support or enough practical knowledge about how to run a household. I can recommend some books... fs
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Post by ooT on Apr 14, 2008 22:40:01 GMT -5
Freespirit, you are SO cool!!
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Post by This is Good on Apr 14, 2008 23:14:24 GMT -5
What has happened to your freespirit? I've been thinking about this question. Recently, my husband had a weeklong seminar and, because I don't have a traditional job, I was free to pack up and go with him. This is what he did from 9 to 9: sat in meetings. This is what I did: played on the beach with my kid, read a book. Um. So... I dunno... maybe I lost it at the beach. Every morning my husband must be dressed in a uniform prescribed for him by someone else. He must leave the house by 6:30. He is then required to go to face traffic so that he can go to a job where he sits in meetings, types reports, deals with government officials and frustrating people all day long. He gets home around 6:30pm and, honestly, he looks kinda tired. In the meantime, every morning I am free to get dressed or free to stay in my pjs. I'm free to work on my creative endeavors or I'm free to sit and play on the Internet. I'm free to eat lunch with a friend or spend long hours on the phone. Nobody tells me what to wear or where to go or what to do. I'm free to play it by ear and make it up as I go along. I'm free to read a book and I'm free to plant a garden. I'm free to volunteer at school (or any other place.) I'm free to go get a massage and I'm free to go to a dance class. I plan my own schedule so I'm free to get stuff done and I'm free to rest. Quite frankly, from a freespirit's point of view, what my husband does sounds like sheer and utter hell. Every day he goes. Day in. Day out. Even when it's raining. Last week I went to get a pedicure and drank champagne in the early afternoon... they NEVER let my husband do that at work. Like... NEVER. The day before that I went to Bed, Bath and Beyond and Target. They don't let him do that at work either. Like... NEVER. He tells me he likes his job. I dunno. I'd rather go to the beach. But... shhhhhhhhh.... about this stuff, okay? Because I have him convinced that what I do is sheer, hardcore, grueling, hideous sacrifice. I mean... his coffee gets made, his shirts ironed and his bed made. For crying out loud, that's at least 15 minutes of slave labor right there. And I cook... well... there's AT LEAST another 45 minutes, maybe an hour, more if you count the shopping--but then, even people who work have to grocery shop so I dunno if that really counts or not. I'm sure there is other stuff too. Just last week, I had to run an errand for him. So... if he's reading here... He's killing me! I'm dying here! It's heinous the things I have to do! Degrading! Totally! How dare anyone ask these things of me! ;D Once I had a job like his... I really liked it. I was respected and I made a lot of money. But I'd still rather go to the beach. I thought maybe when my kid got bigger, I'd go back to work life. But... that 8 to 5 stuff kinda sounds like drudgery. I might have to wear pantyhose. *shudder* Work (that traditional work stuff anyway--I'm not talking about your dream job) is IMO... what people do that either *have* to (i.e. they really need the money) or can't think of something better to do. So, I guess I'll go build a pond in the backyard. Maybe I'll write a book. Because that sounds a lot more fun. At least to me it does. And then I'm going to plan out a really nice meal for my husband and make sure he feels totally spoiled when he gets home--because I appreciate what he does and he is really, really, really good to me and I do NOT want to lose my place at home. It's a blessing. As far as being home not suiting some people... maybe they just haven't learned the art of creative living yet. Maybe they don't have enough hobbies or interests or friends or support or enough practical knowledge about how to run a household. I can recommend some books... fs Send this in to Dr. Laura,-----I guarantee you she will read this on air and put it on her website!!!!!!!!! Thanks, excellent post. I try to appreciate my husband the same way.
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Post by Hijacked on Apr 15, 2008 11:11:11 GMT -5
The post has been well and truly hijacked!!!
Any views on how brother workers speak against women and why they have this need to do so?
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Post by Insecurity on Apr 15, 2008 20:10:55 GMT -5
People who try to put others down are generally insecure. Sometimes they feel intimidated, threatened in some way be women. If they are not too intelligent the only recourse to them is sarcasm, jibes, jokes or criticism.
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Post by lacking a sermon on Apr 17, 2008 9:17:03 GMT -5
They only do it when they haven't got a sermon to preach.
Note all the best sermons are early in the convention.
The waffle happens after they have all dried up.
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Post by Very often on Apr 21, 2008 12:20:55 GMT -5
That must be more frequent than you can imagine, from what I hear it happens regularly.
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Post by degem on Apr 23, 2008 12:54:31 GMT -5
I can't remember the last time I heard a brother worker speak in a meeting about a "woman's place (and I have been around a long time ). Sometimes, I think, the "tone" (voice) in which a comment is spoken can be more offensive than what is being said. I used to work part time. I really enjoyed it (at first). I loved being out with others and interacting with adults. I worked part time for over 13 years. But as time went on the job became more demanding and my home life, with younger children, became more demanding. It came to a point where my stress levels were so so high that I quit. Do I miss working ? Sometimes I do... Our little family could definitely use the money. But the tradeoff is that I don't have that extremely high level of stress that I once had. Am I a homebody? Not always, I would rather anyday be with people gabbing my fool head off than doing housework.. etc.But the choice I have made right now at this point of my life is not to work . I have a loving husband who supports me in this decision. If a worker desires to speak about difficulties in young /old marriages, I really don't think it should be about a woman's place, but advice given that is beneficial to both , spoken in a loving and caring manner. JMO Gem
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Post by Alana on Apr 25, 2008 14:25:45 GMT -5
Good thinking, Gem, I hope some workers will read your post.
I have heard several brothers say how embarassed they are when listening to such platitudes as we have experienced over recent years.
Some sisters get upset, but the majority smile and ignore them.
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Post by degem on Apr 26, 2008 11:05:04 GMT -5
Thanks Alana! I would probably be more than embarrassed if I heard a worker only speaking of a woman's place. Why not also speak then about a man's place? I would rather hear how each of us can fill our individual place. Gem
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Post by freespirit on Apr 27, 2008 22:43:02 GMT -5
I can't remember the last time I heard a brother worker speak in a meeting about a "woman's place (and I have been around a long time ). Sometimes, I think, the "tone" (voice) in which a comment is spoken can be more offensive than what is being said. I used to work part time. I really enjoyed it (at first). I loved being out with others and interacting with adults. I worked part time for over 13 years. But as time went on the job became more demanding and my home life, with younger children, became more demanding. It came to a point where my stress levels were so so high that I quit. Do I miss working ? Sometimes I do... Our little family could definitely use the money. But the tradeoff is that I don't have that extremely high level of stress that I once had. Am I a homebody? Not always, I would rather anyday be with people gabbing my fool head off than doing housework.. etc.But the choice I have made right now at this point of my life is not to work . I have a loving husband who supports me in this decision. If a worker desires to speak about difficulties in young /old marriages, I really don't think it should be about a woman's place, but advice given that is beneficial to both , spoken in a loving and caring manner. JMO Gem Gem, I kinda disagree with this statement of yours that you made a decision to not "work". The choice you have made IMO is to work for yourself, to build your house into a home, to use your time and energy to create a better life than you could if you were working somewhere else. I guess I don't know that for sure, but that's what your post sounds like to me. This is just me ranting, a social commentary, not aimed at you or anyone in particular, but here goes: It used to be that women were proud of the work they did for their families, they were revered for their domestic skills--you know... all that multitasking, child rearing, organizing, decorating, budgeting, cleaning, providing nutrition, dealing with chaos, doing creative projects, teaching our kids, finding a sense of community with other moms, finding hobbies and adult activities to keep ourselves sane--like teaching or taking a class, keeping things together and on-schedule, caring for our families, caring for our husbands, even running a personal or family business of some sort--but it seems like now days the term "housewife" is an insult instead of a compliment. (Or we only use it if we say we're desperate.) And, you know what... that kinda grrs me out, because we're dang good at being housewives--We LOVE these people, caring and being responsible for those we love is a blessing--so IMO we oughta be connecting with our STRENGTH as women--with what women have been doing for generations--the men went off to war or whatever men did, and the women ran the keep, organized the household, raised children into decent adults and took. care. of. what. needed. to. be. done. Women didn't *suddenly* get strong when Susan B. Anthony showed up on the scene--we've been capable and competent and valuable and had our act together for centuries. I love the Proverbs 31 woman--she was smart, talented and an asset to her family and those around her. She was powerful, influential. She even ran her own business. Personally, I think we need to change our language, take back our "place"--quit letting people get away with telling us there is something inherently degrading about being a Domestic Diva--because that's just one more devaluing dig IMO. Instead we oughta connect with that sense of pride and flow, recognize how powerful we are--we are raising the future!--and honor that part of ourselves. JMO. But, in my point of view, there is a lot of crap in society today that seems to dishonor or devalue or downplay the importance of loving and caring for our spouses and our children and it kinda bugs me. Often we build bigger houses, but have lost the art of building a home. Rant over. If you ever wanna borrow my reggae cds and my SEXXXXXXXXXXY leopard print apron, I'll loan 'em to ya. ;D peace, freespirit
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insult or compliment
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Post by insult or compliment on Apr 29, 2008 12:09:54 GMT -5
Thinking that the term housewife is an insult rather than a compliment is kind of revealing about your own satisfaction with your role, Freespirit. You have really boiled over with this. The thread is seemingly a protest at brother workers preaching against women and quoting the keepers at home item. What is your cintribution to the thread? Do you think they should preach against women, women's freedom to choose, etc. or not?
The virtues of housewives could form another thread.
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to freespirit from gem
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Post by to freespirit from gem on Apr 29, 2008 14:25:25 GMT -5
to freespirit-I should have worded it " My decision was to not seek employment outside the home " Don't worry fs I am not offended by what you wrote! Its ironic but our Wednesday Bible study is Proverbs 31 about the virtuous woman... Take care, Gem
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alana
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Post by alana on Apr 30, 2008 12:52:21 GMT -5
I hate it when workers speak in meetings against women, ridiculing them, especially cheap jokes which raise a nervous laugh, which hides the real feelings of the congregation. I often wonder how they can be so out of touch, even with professing men'sopinion on women's place and role.
Why is it people donot speak out and tell the workers how to behave.
Why do so many tolerate this degrading practice?
Juat listen to the chat after such a meeting to see people's real opinion an such diatribe.
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Post by Father said on Apr 30, 2008 12:58:05 GMT -5
I heard of a father who, when his son was going in the work, advised him not to become one of those brothers that knocks women and criticises them.
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Post by freespirit on Apr 30, 2008 16:00:34 GMT -5
Freespirit, you are SO cool!! Thank you for this!!!!! freespirit
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Post by ooT on Apr 30, 2008 16:36:55 GMT -5
Alana, can you please give a little "sample sermon" of this sort of preaching? Nothing is coming to mind in my experience.
<< I hate it when workers speak in meetings against women, ridiculing them, especially cheap jokes which raise a nervous laugh, which hides the real feelings of the congregation. I often wonder how they can be so out of touch, even with professing men'sopinion on women's place and role. >>
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