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Post by Verityc on Apr 1, 2008 11:08:44 GMT -5
Huge grief and damage has been caused by covering wrongs, taking sides and not telling the truth in a situation.
With hindsight this is obvious.
What makes the people in authority hide wrongdoing and cover up the wrongs of certain members at the cost of other members?
What makes them support one and condemn another?
Shouldn't the leaders ( and followers) of The ONLY True Way be IMPARTIAL in judgement?
It is great to believe that "Our sin is covered by the sacrifice of Jesus." We should not display and point out other people's mistakes. (There but for the grace of God go I...) ( and you...)
Nonetheless hiding gross wrong instead of admitting, apologising, recompensing and putting them right, when it has adversely affected others ( often with extreme consequences seems to be less than honest and appears to be most cowardly.
Is this done through fear on the part of leaders?
Is this done because of favoritism on the part of leaders?
Is it done in ignorance?
Is it done through erroneously trying to protect the Way from scandal?
What can the reasons be?
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Post by Simple reason on Apr 5, 2008 0:51:11 GMT -5
The reasons are simple to understand and obvous too.
Lack of love.
Self Interest.
Favouritism.
Cowardice ( as already mentioned)
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Post by mirror on Apr 5, 2008 3:22:46 GMT -5
The simple reason for covers ups is that the workers consider the church THEIR PROPERTY and not the work of God and the bride of Jesus. This is why this way is called the 2x2s. It implies that it is a human construction based on 2 workers, not on the foundation that must be Christ.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2008 9:59:21 GMT -5
Basically it is all down to believing a "system" is the "Truth." They see the system as being "Jesus," therefore are blind to the difference. They cannot separate the two.
A system has no feelings - no emotions. As far as a system is concerned, its members are merely numbers, not individual persons. They are expendable if necessary to protect the sytem. Many have invested their lives in this system they see as "Truth." Their very livlihood and survival are dependant upon this system. Therefore the system must prevail no matter what. Lives are twisted to fit into the system. Beliefs are twisted to fit into the system. Judgements are twisted to fit into the system.
It is the system that is in control. Even the highest overseer is governed by it, for without it he comes crashing down.
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Post by aileen on Apr 5, 2008 13:44:06 GMT -5
Whats wrong with believing that our system is truth? Its us that believe it, not forcing it on you.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2008 18:00:44 GMT -5
Jesus said that "HE IS THE TRUTH !" He directed our focus onto him and it is only through him that you can truly reach the Father.
If you want the Truth as in Jesus then it is he that you should believe in "not a system as being truth !" That's what's wrong with believing in a system. For other flaws in believing in a system as being Truth, see some examples in my last post above.
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alana
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Post by alana on Apr 5, 2008 19:59:57 GMT -5
Whats wrong with believing that our system is truth? Its us that believe it, not forcing it on you. Truth can contain no untruth. Its members practise telling truth in all areas of life. People believe when truth is evident with no shadow of a lie. Even at cost to themselves a TRUE person speaks TRUTH. No cover up or deviation. To represent the TRUE WAY lies are unacceptable. Have you posted truthfully, Aileen on this board? You are hardly a believer, Aileen, a true believer commits to ALL of the belief. Workers believe TV is an evil device and have always forbidden their members to view or own a TV. Have you told the truth? Do you believe in TRUTH?
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Post by mirror on Apr 6, 2008 3:37:38 GMT -5
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Post by aileen on Apr 6, 2008 9:48:53 GMT -5
"...and it is only through him that you can truly reach the Father."
So are you saying that I have not reached Him?
I see our system only in terms of traditions, (like men normally take the meeting), facilties (like meeting in a home) and arrangements (such as our ministry). Having such systems does not in my opinion, preclude us fro having a saving relationship with our God. But if you think differently, thats your prerogative.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2008 16:54:07 GMT -5
Aileen, I have made no statement, nor have I made any assumptions about your personal relationship with God. Hopefully you will agree that Christians believe that it is ONLY through Jesus that we can truly reach God the Father ?
Hopefully you will agree that Jesus himself said that HE was the Truth ! Hopefully you will also agree that at least until compararatively recent times, both Workers and the fellowship in general have commonly referred to the system of belief practiced by the group as the Truth ?
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Post by aileen on Apr 10, 2008 1:43:08 GMT -5
Now youre twisting my question into a statement.
I asked for clarification on what you were saying, by posting "So are you saying that I have not reached Him?" It was a question.
"Hopefully you will agree that Christians believe that it is ONLY through Jesus that we can truly reach God the Father ? "
we do agree on this, but we perhaps disagree on how?
"Hopefully you will agree that Jesus himself said that HE was the Truth! Again agree, but possibly differ on how He was the truth.
"Hopefully you will also agree that at least until compararatively recent times, both Workers and the fellowship in general have commonly referred to the system of belief practiced by the group as the Truth ?" Don't know that this has stopped? Still a common term in the Truth to call it the Truth. It is the Truth, they Way that Jesus taught, established, continued and fosters today.
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Post by True or not true on Apr 10, 2008 23:34:02 GMT -5
The way that Jesus showed and the words of Jesus are indeed TRUTH.
The way that certain groups of followers interpret the pure, clean Truth of God and of Jesus IS THE PROBLEM.
Jesus would have a hard time justifying the scandalous practice where deceit is involved, would he not?
Ultimately forgiveness covers sin. Yet the Sin is condemned.
When do we hear the artococious sin being condemned?
When cruel scandal happens it is covered up, lied about and not brought out into the open and dealt with.
Jesus said to sin no more.
( and by the way, go get rid of the devil's box, Aileen if you are a sincere follower of TRUTH.)
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Post by aileen on Apr 11, 2008 3:15:22 GMT -5
"Jesus would have a hard time justifying..."
Are you saying that the justification of God is limited?
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Post by Read the sentence on Apr 11, 2008 7:03:26 GMT -5
The sentence in the previous post reads: "Jesus would have a hard time justifying the scandalous practice where deceit is involved..."
Jesus would never justify deceit. That is what the sentence says.
Besides which He would never justify child molestation or crime of any other kind, nor the covering up deceitfully of any crime.
Do you think that Jesus would approve of crime against children, Aileen. From your post you leave us with this feeling that you might.
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Post by aileen on Apr 11, 2008 9:49:03 GMT -5
Well, I meant "justification" in the way that its used alongside sanctification.
I didn't mean it as "approve of".
Approving of something and justifying it are 2 completely different things.
Jesus is well capable of justifying anything. Approving of crime against children? No.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2008 12:12:05 GMT -5
Now youre twisting my question into a statement. I asked for clarification on what you were saying, by posting "So are you saying that I have not reached Him?" It was a question. "Hopefully you will agree that Christians believe that it is ONLY through Jesus that we can truly reach God the Father ? " we do agree on this, but we perhaps disagree on how? "Hopefully you will agree that Jesus himself said that HE was the Truth! Again agree, but possibly differ on how He was the truth. "Hopefully you will also agree that at least until compararatively recent times, both Workers and the fellowship in general have commonly referred to the system of belief practiced by the group as the Truth ?" Don't know that this has stopped? Still a common term in the Truth to call it the Truth. It is the Truth, they Way that Jesus taught, established, continued and fosters today. And I told you in the same statement that I have not made any assumptions about your personal relationship with God ! What further answer was necessary ? Where was this "twist" you are talking about ? So you at least agree in principle with my other questions, or at least I think you are. I don't want this to seem like a "twist." Presumably, but no twist intended, you do not agree that our focus should be solely on Jesus ? I say this because you suggest we may not agree on "how" we seek the Father through Jesus after I had stated that this is how we approach the Father, i.e. having our focus solely on Jesus, because Jesus directed our focus onto himself ? Is there something in addition to focussing our faith upon Jesus that I (and presumably Jesus) have overlooked ?
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Post by aileen on Apr 11, 2008 13:58:06 GMT -5
"Is there something in addition to focussing our faith upon Jesus that I (and presumably Jesus) have overlooked ? "
Thats interesting that you seem to imply with your presuming that you and Jesus are in agreement in possibly overlooking something. But anyway: Words in such a medium as this become rather inadequate to explain or discuss, but its all we have so...
"focussing our faith upon Jesus" doesn't need anything else. But if you mean that (and here's typed words become inadequate) no efforts by us to continue are required, then we might differ. If you mean that the central part, the main part, the are on which we concentrate most of our effort is on Jesus then we perhaps agree.
What else can we have faith for salvation in? nothing. If you suspect that my faith might be in a system or a man (men) then thats wrong, I don't.
But if we did nothing else than "focus our faith on Him", then I think that'd be inadequate. Reason is, that this is hard to define. What actually would a person who is "focussing all the faith on Him" be doing? What would be their actions? Words alone are not enough.
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Post by RAM UNPLUGGED on Apr 11, 2008 15:26:20 GMT -5
I am presuming that "I" am in agreement with Jesus in that I believe his words are Truth and they are Life. In fact HE is the Truth because he is the word made flesh. I am not presuming that Jesus and/or I are overlooking anything. I am implying that you think there is more to it than "Jesus alone can save me !" i.e. faith in him MUST be accompanied by a certain system of worship overseen by a certain category of ministers ? This is something which is specifically taught, preached and implied in the F&W's fellowship and to which Jesus gave no specific command.
I have NEVER implied or stated that "no effort" is necessary. You can't follow anything without making some kind of effort, let alone Jesus. I firmly believe in "works" but contextual and scriptural, as taught by Jesus.
Regarding, any suspicion that your faith may be in a system or a man(men). I have made no such assumption as explained previously. I am not judging your personal relationship with God. However, now that you have mentioned it, "Do you believe the F&W's system is the ONLY way to worship God, AND that the Workers are God's ONLY true preachers ?
Regarding "focussing our faith (solely) on him." I note you think this is inadequate. Belief is an action not merely an acknowledgement. The Bible does not elaborate when it says "Whosoever believes upon his name shall be saved !" "By no other name shall men be saved" "Whosoever calls upon his name shall be saved !"
It seems to me that is is Jesus who saves by those who focus on him (his name). He gave us two very important commandments to follow, i.e.
1) To love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, and the second which is the same as this, 2) To love our neighbour as ourselves.
He then told us that ALL the law and the Prophets hang upon these two commandments. As the NT had not been written at that time, we can take it that it also hangs upon these two new commandments. These commandments ARE the fulfillment of God's laws/ways.
Suppose we have no other doctrinal beliefs, if we follow these two commandments then we are following Jesus. These two commandments ARE Jesus in action. He described our neighbour via the parable of the Samaritan.
Love God, Love your neighbour. By loving our neighbour as God loves us we prove our love for God. The practical application of the second commandment proves our practical application of the first commandment. Everything else connected with our faith "hangs" upon these two commandments.
Even if, and it's a big "IF," there is any substance to the two Worker commandments of "the church in the home, and the ministry without a home," it is only mere draping on the two commandments. Focussing on these two commandments IS focussing on Christ, because they are Jesus in action.
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Post by aileen on Apr 11, 2008 15:48:47 GMT -5
I don't know what I did to get you "unplugged"....
about saved by God alone: We seem agreed. There's no requirement for a system of worship, a specific system of ministry etc.
"Do you believe the F&W's system is the ONLY way to worship God, AND that the Workers are God's ONLY true preachers ?"
No, and No (subject to whats meant by "true preachers". I take that as only valid ones, only ordained, only ones accepted by God).
Thanks for your explanation. I guess it illustrates that its difficult to explain complex concepts in words thru this medium.
By "not only focussing" I also meant continuing in Him.
We don't sound all that far apart...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2008 15:58:21 GMT -5
"We don't sound all that far apart..."
Then please come round for coffee. The kettle's on !
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Post by aileen on Apr 12, 2008 14:57:17 GMT -5
"round"?
I'd guess it to be a 4-5 hour drive north. But nice thought, thanks.
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Post by trouble with on Apr 13, 2008 8:01:09 GMT -5
Posts with Aileen tend to end up out of focus.
The trouble with discussing anything with AILEEN is routed in language.
She does not have a reasonably adequate grasp of language and has tunneled vision which limits her understanding.
Take her use of the word justification. She hasnot absorbed the depths of language in order to carry on a conversation beyond the purely trivial and superficial.
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selfcentred stupidity
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Post by selfcentred stupidity on Apr 13, 2008 8:11:09 GMT -5
"...and it is only through him that you can truly reach the Father." So are you saying that I have not reached Him? Who is talking about YOU Aileen. Your self-centred stupidity and constant twisting of posts so that you are the subject is PATHETIC and small minded. (Typical of course though) Try to read with the wider picture in view, Try to have a vision beyond yourself and your narrow introverted background. I see our system only in terms of traditions, (like men normally take the meeting), facilties (like meeting in a home) and arrangements (such as our ministry). Having such systems does not in my opinion, preclude us fro having a saving relationship with our God. But if you think differently, thats your prerogative. Thinking differentlly is not a prerogative ( do you understand what that means?) Thinking is, in most people's experience, the result of research, considered evidence and proof, not a narrow, manipulated rigid, blind dogma.
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Post by Dictionary needed on Apr 13, 2008 8:15:00 GMT -5
Well, I meant "justification" in the way that its used alongside sanctification. I didn't mean it as "approve of". Approving of something and justifying it are 2 completely different things. Jesus is well capable of justifying anything. Approving of crime against children? No. Get a dictionary, Aileen. Until you understand fully the meaning of words, discussion is lost on you!!!!
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Post by aileen on Apr 13, 2008 14:06:35 GMT -5
I really don't mind that you'd rather attack me than the argument.
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Post by introvert on Apr 15, 2008 21:01:10 GMT -5
See what you are doing? Turning yourself into the victim once again.
Symbolic of Cultism
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