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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 1, 2008 19:01:42 GMT -5
Is it Ok to give advice? Is it Ok to tell people what they should do? When they ask for it? Of course.
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Post by Rob O on May 1, 2008 19:28:19 GMT -5
CUL, Start here: www.divorce-remarriage.com/Go to left menu -> Books -> Pastoral The entire pastoral version of the book is online. Then if you want more depth of the background research, buy the academic version.
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Post by degem on May 1, 2008 19:39:29 GMT -5
Hello calleduntoliberty! I called TRUTHTELLER"S aunt's reply "spunky". Then you replied that "Willingness to throw out the word of God is not good for her." I am perplexed as to what you mean by that statement. How is she "throwing out the word of God ?" Now remember its just a friendly question being asked. Gem
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 1, 2008 21:48:07 GMT -5
Gem, she was asked a legitimate question about a vow she had taken, and her response sounds rather flippant, as if taking a vow to be married "until death do us part" is of no real significance.
Obviously there's no real legitimacy is trying to read "until death do us part" as allowing "the death of our marriage" to do the parting. That would be a tautology -- a mere statement that they will be married until their marriage ends. "Until death do us part" is understood to refer to the death of one of the two getting married.
Apart from it being inherently obvious (?!) that we should not break out vows, the Bible says so.
Even if those specific words are not spoken in a marriage vow, marriage should still be viewed from a Biblical perspective. Jesus also condemns divorce specifically, as already mentioned in other posts...
In the particular case Truthteller mentioned, we don't know the nature of the "marriage problems", so we don't know whether there was an "acceptable" reason for the divorce -- which might include adultery, and some argue includes extreme abuse. So it doesn't seem appropriate to defend a divorce when we don't even know if it met those criteria...
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Post by Rob O on May 1, 2008 23:15:04 GMT -5
Jesus does not specifically condemn divorce. He rejected the Hillelite interpretation of Dt.24:1 which was used to "legitimise" the Any Cause form of divorce, ie. that a man could divorce his wife for any reason whatsoever (including marital unfaithfulness) eg. she burned his food. The Any Cause divorce is similar to the modern No Fault divorce. In this case He affirms the Shammaitic interpretation of Dt.24:1 - that it is referring to sexual impropriety. This is not the only valid grounds for divorce in first century Judaism though, as the Rabbinical schools had reasoned from Torah that material neglect and emotional neglect form acceptable grounds for divorce. There is no record of Jesus discussing these other grounds.
In this discussion Jesus places the basis of marriage in the fact that God made man and woman to cleave together and become one. Hence, trivial reasons such as burnt food or whimsical displeasure are not satisfactory grounds for divorce - Any Cause divorce is not acceptable. There must be real grounds, such as marital unfaithfulness. Where a person has "divorced" for Any Cause and remarried, their new state is adulterous because their "divorce" was not valid.
Further, "what God has joined, let no man separate" is not the functional or literal equivalent of "what God has joined, man cannot separate". A valid union is binding in God's eyes. It should not be separated, or broken. Nevertheless, in their hardness of heart people break this union all the time through spousal abuse and neglect or unfaithfulness, or invalid divorce.
Judaism took it for granted that after a valid divorce, remarriage was perfectly acceptable. There are no grounds for asserting that Jesus thought otherwise. The debate was over what constituted a valid interpretation of Dt.24:1.
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Post by aileen on May 2, 2008 1:50:06 GMT -5
Its my view that Jesus sin't condemn divorce, only re-marriage.
In our fellowship we are inconsistent in our dealing with this. I am an example of that inconsistency myself.
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Post by people in general on May 2, 2008 10:50:52 GMT -5
Its my view that Jesus sin't condemn divorce, only re-marriage. In our fellowship we are inconsistent in our dealing with this. I am an example of that inconsistency myself. Maybe people in general are inconsistent about divorce. I have heard people getting many divorces, and I wonder if they all are for the same reason?
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 2, 2008 13:04:03 GMT -5
Further, " what God has joined, let no man separate" is not the functional or literal equivalent of " what God has joined, man cannot separate". I agree - not cannot but shalt not, may not.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2008 13:17:10 GMT -5
Matt. 5:7
"Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy."
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Post by mercy me on May 2, 2008 13:23:48 GMT -5
Matt. 5:7 "Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy." merciful , how about justified. Am I justified in getting a divorce, or am I merciful in thinking I cannot forgive my spouce ?
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2008 13:40:17 GMT -5
Matt. 5:7 "Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy." merciful , how about justified. Am I justified in getting a divorce, or am I merciful in thinking I cannot forgive my spouce ? Mercy covers ALL circumstances. Sometimes a spouse doesn't want forgiven. Mercy addresses ALL circumstances. Your remark may only apply in a small percentage of circumstances. Marriage is a two way thing,and so is divorce. Just because you want to be merciful, forgive and forget does not mean your partner is of a mind to respond. They may have someone else, or just simply wish to be free to follow their selfish pursuits. In these circumstances, the remaining party at least should be shown mercy. I quoted scripture. Did you ? Or did you follow your own mind ?
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Post by merci on May 2, 2008 13:48:27 GMT -5
merciful , how about justified. Am I justified in getting a divorce, or am I merciful in thinking I cannot forgive my spouce ?[/qute] Mercy covers ALL circumstances. Sometimes a spouse doesn't want forgiven. I quoted scripture. Did you ? Or did you follow your own mind ? I was trying to grasp the meaning of 'blessed are the merciful', as you quoted, yet, dealing with divorce is more like justification, and not mercy. imo. Is divorce justified? ONLY God knows. Is it merciful to extend mercy to your spouce? I think so, but that is only my human mind thinking.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2008 13:50:36 GMT -5
The woman who was taken in adultery was about to face the just God prescribed punishment of death by stoning under God's law. Jesus could not go against the law which was about to be carried out. He merely asked that he that is without sin cast the first stone. The woman walked free. Because her accusers left, he didn't accuse her, but merely told her to go and sin no more (change your ways).
There would be many people who Jesus could not help and who faced the punishment of the law. However, God looks upon the heart and will be merciful to those who receive him.
We must be merciful towards one another. We must not judge one another as outlined in Matthew 7. In my view this judgement call is about coming between God and a sinner. It is not up to us to decide whom God has his finger upon and we should be very careful in case our actions may come between God and a sinner.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2008 13:54:35 GMT -5
Divorce may or may not be justified depending upon the circumstances. Nevertheless, no divorce lies outwith the bounds of mercy. None of us are justified before God. We are all dependent upon his mercy. In this respect, no one stands upon ground which is firmer than that supporting anyone divorced/re-married.
Mercy does not share a marital bed with justification. Its bed-fellow is sanctification. Anyone who links justification with mercy, quite simply does not understand God's mercy.
None of us are justified by our own standards or actions, but by the mercy and love of God.
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Post by merci on May 2, 2008 14:00:02 GMT -5
The woman who was taken in adultery was about to face the just God prescribed punishment of death by stoning under God's law. Jesus could not go against the law which was about to be carried out. He merely asked that he that is without sin cast the first stone. The woman walked free. Because her accusers left, he didn't accuse her, but merely told her to go and sin no more (change your ways). We must be merciful towards one another. We must not judge one another as outlined in Matthew 7. In my view this judgement call is about coming between God and a sinner. It is not up to us to decide whom God has his finger upon and we should be very careful in case our actions may come between God and a sinner. I understand what you are trying to say, but what good does it do YOU, for me to extend ''mercy'', when you haven't broken any of my concepts, have you? Lets say that I ask you not to take my apple, and you take it anyways! Then, I should have mercy, towards your action, because {for all I know}, you may have felt quite hungry. My point is, that these doctrines/teachings of Jesus, are not for ME to trivialize, and to say they can be treated lightly, {breaking vow} . If I say that I will have mercy on you because you killed someone.....well, what if God says you shouldn't??
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2008 14:08:20 GMT -5
The woman who was taken in adultery was about to face the just God prescribed punishment of death by stoning under God's law. Jesus could not go against the law which was about to be carried out. He merely asked that he that is without sin cast the first stone. The woman walked free. Because her accusers left, he didn't accuse her, but merely told her to go and sin no more (change your ways). We must be merciful towards one another. We must not judge one another as outlined in Matthew 7. In my view this judgement call is about coming between God and a sinner. It is not up to us to decide whom God has his finger upon and we should be very careful in case our actions may come between God and a sinner. I understand what you are trying to say, but what good does it do YOU, for me to extend ''mercy'', when you haven't broken any of my concepts, have you? Lets say that I ask you not to take my apple, and you take it anyways! Then, I should have mercy, towards your action, because {for all I know}, you may have felt quite hungry. My point is, that these doctrines/teachings of Jesus, are not for ME to trivialize, and to say they can be treated lightly, {breaking vow} . If I say that I will have mercy on you because you killed someone.....well, what if God says you shouldn't?? We are commanded to be merciful. We are not the judges. If we judge others, God will judge us by the same measures. If we are merciful towards others, God will be merciful towards us. We are to love others as ourselves. These are God's standards operating by his spirit through us. As we extend, love, mercy and forgiveness towards others we are merely allowing God's spirit to do these works through us. It is God working through us. It is the Christ within that is producing these works. If we forgive, then God forgives. Our mercy is the merciful hand of God at work. If we love our neighbour, then we are proving our love for God because it is his love working through us towards our neighbour. If you withhold love, mercy or forgiveness, you are simply being a stumbling block for God operating through you. The buck stops with you.
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Post by merci on May 2, 2008 14:14:35 GMT -5
I understand what you are trying to say, but what good does it do YOU, for me to extend ''mercy'', when you haven't broken any of my concepts, have you? Lets say that I ask you not to take my apple, and you take it anyways! Then, I should have mercy, towards your action, because {for all I know}, you may have felt quite hungry. My point is, that these doctrines/teachings of Jesus, are not for ME to trivialize, and to say they can be treated lightly, {breaking vow} . If I say that I will have mercy on you because you killed someone.....well, what if God says you shouldn't??[/qe] We are commanded to be merciful. We are not the judges. If we judge others, God will judge us by the same measures. If we are merciful towards others, God will be merciful towards us. We are to love others as ourselves. These are God's standards operating by his spirit through us. As we extend, love, mercy and forgiveness towards others we are merely allowing God's spirit to do these works through us. It is God working through us. It is the Christ within that is producing these works. If we forgive, then God forgives. Our mercy is the merciful hand of God at work. If we love our neighbour, If you withhold love, mercy or forgiveness, you are simply being a stumbling block for God operating through you. The buck stops with you. It seems that you are now judging people that have a godly respect for vows, as being ungodly? hmm And we be helpers together , to be our brother's keeper, from sin. What you are saying makes no sense to God. What good does it do for me to excuse you, when we have never met?
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2008 14:19:15 GMT -5
Mercy does not trivialize the laws of God, rather it fulfills it. In most countries in the western world, the laws of the land, at least in principle are meant to be applied with "mercy" in appropriate cases (Jesus showed this with the woman taken in adultery). However, we have become so statute and performance/results driven, this fulfilling aspect of the law is almost forgotten about.
God's mercy is not a licence to sin. It is the "fulfillment" of the law. Paul said something about "we are no longer under the law, but under grace." That is for those who accept Jesus. No one who truly accepts Jesus would regard mercy as a licence or and excuse to sin.
The problem that some people have is that they think a divorced and re-married person with former spouse still alive is committing "adultery." There are differing views of this, but they are all in my opinion irrelevant because a person who accepts Jesus is no longer under the law but their past is forgiven and forgotten AND they are now under the grace (mercy) of God which is greater than the OT law.
Difficult to explain I agree, but just accept God's mercy for what it is. The only sin or circumstances which cannot be forgiven is grieving the Holy Spirit which I believe is rejecting God's claim upon our lives.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2008 14:26:35 GMT -5
I understand what you are trying to say, but what good does it do YOU, for me to extend ''mercy'', when you haven't broken any of my concepts, have you? Lets say that I ask you not to take my apple, and you take it anyways! Then, I should have mercy, towards your action, because {for all I know}, you may have felt quite hungry. My point is, that these doctrines/teachings of Jesus, are not for ME to trivialize, and to say they can be treated lightly, {breaking vow} . If I say that I will have mercy on you because you killed someone.....well, what if God says you shouldn't??[/qe] We are commanded to be merciful. We are not the judges. If we judge others, God will judge us by the same measures. If we are merciful towards others, God will be merciful towards us. We are to love others as ourselves. These are God's standards operating by his spirit through us. As we extend, love, mercy and forgiveness towards others we are merely allowing God's spirit to do these works through us. It is God working through us. It is the Christ within that is producing these works. If we forgive, then God forgives. Our mercy is the merciful hand of God at work. If we love our neighbour, If you withhold love, mercy or forgiveness, you are simply being a stumbling block for God operating through you. The buck stops with you. It seems that you are now judging people that have a godly respect for vows, as being ungodly? hmm And we be helpers together , to be our brother's keeper, from sin. What you are saying makes no sense to God. What good does it do for me to excuse you, when we have never met? Interesting point this considering he knows our thoughts and hearts. Are you his adviser ? Are you Jesus ?
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Post by merci on May 2, 2008 14:26:48 GMT -5
Mercy does not trivialize the laws of God, rather it fulfills it. In most countries in the western world, the laws of the land, Difficult to explain I agree, but just accept God's mercy for what it is. The only sin or circumstances which cannot be forgiven is grieving the Holy Spirit which I believe is rejecting God's claim upon our lives. is it ok with you if I commit adultry? I won't even bother asking you, because you probably wouldn't even care, but you would claim that YOU are being ''merciful''. ! Isn't sin a matter between God and the sinner, what good does YOUR mercy have on this issue, unless you are god.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2008 15:35:35 GMT -5
I have never stated it is okay to commit adultery ? Stop twisting my words. I told you plainly that mercy is not a licence to sin and that mercy does not trivialize God's laws, rather it fulfills them.
The truth is, I do care. That's partly how I think and believe like I do.
Sins are not restricted to being between God and the sinner. We are told that he forgives us as we forgive others. Have a think about the Lord's Prayer ! We have a duty to forgive others their sins against us ! Why do you think we are commanded to be merciful towards others ?
See Matt. 6. 14-15 to see our role in forgiving sins ! Leaving it to God will mean your own sins won't be forgiven !
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Post by merci on May 2, 2008 16:12:02 GMT -5
Mercy does not trivialize the laws of God, rather it fulfills it. In most countries in the western world, the laws of the land, Difficult to explain I agree, but just accept God's mercy for what it is. The only sin or circumstances which cannot be forgiven is grieving the Holy Spirit which I believe is rejecting God's claim upon our lives. is it ok with you if I commit adultry? I won't even bother asking you, because you probably wouldn't even care, but you would claim that YOU are being ''merciful''. ! Isn't sin a matter between God and the sinner, what good does YOUR mercy have on this issue, unless you are god. No , but Jesus said that to divorce someone, is to ''cause them to commit adultry''. Thus to say it is ok, is trivializing adultry as something that humans are in control of the remission of its error, which is not correct, it is between God and the offenders, NOwhere does it say that we can forgive people of sins. We can be merciful to people who offend us tho! [or those that disagree with our ''opinions'' ;D ;D] whatever......
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2008 18:08:45 GMT -5
Mercy does not trivialize the laws of God, rather it fulfills it. In most countries in the western world, the laws of the land, Difficult to explain I agree, but just accept God's mercy for what it is. The only sin or circumstances which cannot be forgiven is grieving the Holy Spirit which I believe is rejecting God's claim upon our lives. is it ok with you if I commit adultry? I won't even bother asking you, because you probably wouldn't even care, but you would claim that YOU are being ''merciful''. ! Isn't sin a matter between God and the sinner, what good does YOUR mercy have on this issue, unless you are god. No , but Jesus said that to divorce someone, is to ''cause them to commit adultry''. Thus to say it is ok, is trivializing adultry as something that humans are in control of the remission of its error, which is not correct, it is between God and the offenders, NOwhere does it say that we can forgive people of sins. We can be merciful to people who offend us tho! [or those that disagree with our ''opinions'' ;D ;D] whatever...... I take it that you read your Bible ? For your statement "nowhere does it say we can forgive people of sins," how about (to start with) making recourse to Matthew 18:21-22 (King James' version) "21. Then Peter came to him and said, Lord how oft shall my brother SIN against me and I FORGIVE him ? Till seven times ? 22. Jesus saith unto him, I say not onto thee, Until seven times; but, Until seventy times." Forgiving a person IS one form of mercy ! There's more, plenty more, merci, but if you wont accept that passage then there's no point in waisting further time on this with you. On the Adultery point, I trust you are aware that it is commonly believed that this was a mistranslation and should read "put away" his wife ? I reject the idea that I am somehow trivializing adultery. What I seriously call into question is your understanding of what mercy is ! By forgiving a person their sins against you, it is actually God working through you as he gives you the grace to mercifully set others free from their sins against you.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2008 18:27:14 GMT -5
Merci, instead of resorting to our own understanding of divorce/re-marriage/adultery etc and making "judgements," how about reading John 4 to see how Jesus dealt with a case of this nature.
He met that woman from Samaria at Jacob's well and asked her for a drink of water. He told her that she had had FIVE husbands and that the man she was currently with was not her husband (i.e. living together-not married).
Now her circumstances can fall into two categories.
1) Either all her 5 husbands died at some point after she married them (freeing her to marry another) and then she fell foul of sin by living with the sixth man, or
2) She had been divorced by all or some of her husbands (some may have died), but nevertheless some marriages would have been divorces. Further she was living with a man who was not her husband and was clearly "living in sin." It is possible the sixth man situation arose due to her fifth husband booting her out (putting her away) without a bill of divorce and as women in those days needed to be supported by a man, she was forced into a life of adultery in order to survive ? This is something Jesus addressed when approached by the Pharisees on the divorce issue.
Now, it is clear that whatever her circumstances, Jesus clearly showed mercy to her (nb whilst she was still living in sin). Furthermore, AND this is important, Jesus RECOGNISED FIVE MARRIAGES because he recognised FIVE husbands !!
Now if you want to believe in a series of early male deaths followed by a kipping up, then go ahead, but in my view it is far liklier she had had up to five divorces !
My point to you is this, weigh up this situation as reasonably and as logically as you can. Don't try and get it to fit any pre-conceived ideas. Then seriously consider how Jesus dealt with that woman who in all liklihood had been divorced and re-married several times and was then living in adultery !
Do you accuse Jesus of trivializing adultery ? Was he merciful ?
My views align perfectly with Jesus' approach in this situation. Of course you can argue about a line of five dead husbands but you still have that adultery factor to contend with !
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Post by merci on May 2, 2008 20:36:33 GMT -5
is it ok with you if I commit adultry? I won't even bother asking you, because you probably wouldn't even care, but you would claim that YOU are being ''merciful''. ! Isn't sin a matter between God and the sinner, what good does YOUR mercy have on this issue, unless you are god. No , but Jesus said that to divorce someone, is to ''cause them to commit adultry''. Thus to say it is ok, is trivializing adultry as something that humans are in control of the remission of its error, which is not correct, it is between God and the offenders, NOwhere does it say that we can forgive people of sins. We can be merciful to people who offend us tho! [or those that disagree with our ''opinions'' ;D ;D] whatever...... I take it that you read your Bible ? For your statement "nowhere does it say we can forgive people of sins," On the Adultery point, I trust you are aware that it is commonly believed that this was a mistranslation and should read "put away" his wife ? I reject the idea that I am somehow trivializing adultery. What I seriously call into question is your understanding of what mercy is ! By forgiving a person their sins against you, it is actually God working through you as he gives you the grace to mercifully set others free from their sins against you. I would say that a vow between 2 people and God, needs to be dealt with by God. If I find out I gave someone forgiveness, then does God need to forgive him too, just because I did. Am I equal to God in remitting sins? I disagree that the catholic popes/priests have gods authority to remise sins , either. Sins against me, YES, of course I can forgive them, the sins against God, needs Gods forgiveness. I will not just say, its ok to divorce, any more than to say its ok to sin, does that make sense>. I think we are going in circles here. ;D
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2008 2:47:51 GMT -5
I take it that you read your Bible ? For your statement "nowhere does it say we can forgive people of sins," On the Adultery point, I trust you are aware that it is commonly believed that this was a mistranslation and should read "put away" his wife ? I reject the idea that I am somehow trivializing adultery. What I seriously call into question is your understanding of what mercy is ! By forgiving a person their sins against you, it is actually God working through you as he gives you the grace to mercifully set others free from their sins against you. I would say that a vow between 2 people and God, needs to be dealt with by God. If I find out I gave someone forgiveness, then does God need to forgive him too, just because I did. Am I equal to God in remitting sins? I disagree that the catholic popes/priests have gods authority to remise sins , either. Sins against me, YES, of course I can forgive them, the sins against God, needs Gods forgiveness. I will not just say, its ok to divorce, any more than to say its ok to sin, does that make sense>. I think we are going in circles here. ;D Merci, my understanding and belief is that when we forgive another's sins against us, this is actually God doing the forgiving. This is one of the works I believe we are called to do. Many people cannot see "mercy" and "works" as being synonymous, but I do. They cannot reconcile the two, hence statements like "licence to sin," etc. When we forgive, this is an action of the Christ within. God loves us being merciful. What we loose a sinner here, God looses that sinner. We are his work on Earth (within reason). Much of our sinful life only God can forgive, but not only do we have God's authority to forgive others their tresspasses against us, it is also his express command that we do so, for he is actually using us, through us, to be merciful to the sinner. When we forgive sins, its not a case of being equal to God, for God has made his abode with us and it is he that is doing the forgiving through us. I too do not agree with Catholic doctrine about Priests forging sins in a general way, but I do believe that all of God's people are part of an Holy Priesthood who do have the authority to forgive sins committed against them personally. This allows us to be just like Christ in forgiving those who put him on the cross. If we forgive those who wrong us, God will not hold these sins against them because he has already freed them from that burden through our merciful actions. We get reward for that. I agree that a vow between two people and God needs to be dealt with by God and that is why I keep harping on about God's mercy. Marriage is something that God instituted and the purpose of it is that it should last until the death of one of the marriage partners. However, this does not mean that it cannot be ended prematurely by man. It should not, but that does not mean that it cannot. It is like a person's life. A life is meant to last until God decides it is time to take that life away. However, man can and does take away life prematurely. It should not happen, but that does not mean that it cannot happen, and it clearly does happen in many circumstances. However God's mercy can and does apply in appropriate cases for ALL sins and circumstances. Take another look at that woman from Samaria. The Disciples were concerned because Jesus was talking to her, yet he did not condemn her, he showed her mercy. The consequences of this were extremely far reaching as her testimony rapidly brought about many Christian converts (all within two days !). That's a heck of a lot more success than a Thousand Gospel missions each lasting for several years, isn't it ?
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Post by merci on May 3, 2008 15:57:29 GMT -5
I would say that a vow between 2 people and God, I disagree that the catholic popes/priests have gods authority to remise sins , either. Sins against me, YES, of course I can forgive them, the sins against God, needs Gods forgiveness. I will not just say, its ok to divorce, any more than to say its ok to sin, does that make sense>. I think we are going in circles here. ;D Merci, my understanding and belief is that when we forgive another's sins against us, this is actually God doing the forgiving. This is one of the works I believe we are called to do. Many people cannot see "mercy" and "works" as being synonymous, but I do. They cannot reconcile the two, hence statements like "licence to sin," etc. When we forgive, this is an action of the Christ within. God loves us being merciful. What we loose a sinner here, God looses that sinner. We are his work on Earth (within reason). Much of our sinful life only God can forgive, but not only do we have God's authority to forgive others their tresspasses against us, it is also his express command that we do so, for he is actually using us, through us, to be merciful to the sinner. When we forgive sins, its not a case of being equal to God, for God has made his abode with us and it is he that is doing the forgiving through us. I too do not agree with Catholic doctrine about Priests forging sins in a general way, Take another look at that woman from Samaria. The Disciples were concerned because Jesus was talking to her, yet he did not condemn her, he showed her mercy. The consequences of this were extremely far reaching as her testimony rapidly brought about many Christian converts (all within two days !). I totally agree with you, that I need to forgive people who ''trespass against me''! YES! What do you think the woman from Samaria told her friends , after her encounter with Jesus? I rather doubt that she told them. "Jesus said it was OK to get a divorce, so you can too.'' I doubt that was the message that Jesus was saying, ....that is why I disagree with that message, it is not ok. It is forgivable, but not OK! IMHO.
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Post by Hmmmm on May 4, 2008 3:16:28 GMT -5
While I agree with your basic sentiment, Merci....I must also add that the view often changes when one finds him/herself in the situation. From the outside looking in, it is very easy to judge. Not saying that you are, just that it's different when one is involved so heavily as opposed to just reading the scripture or giving advice.
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