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Post by k on Sept 5, 2004 10:44:13 GMT -5
Examples: 1. Owl Gore got cheated in Florida because of the closeness of the vote. 2. Texas redistricting. Never mind that DEMOCRATS in their heyday under LBJ, Sam Rayburn and others had gerrymandered the districts!! 3. Zell Miller turned against poor John Liberal MA Kerry!! 4. Willie Horton defeated Dukakis in 1988!! 5. Max Cleland lost a senate race in GA because Saxby Chambliss questioned his patriotism. 6. Swift boat vets are out to get John Kennedy Kerry! When I hear these liberals whine, it insults me to think that THEY THINK I AM SO STUPID that I listen to campaign spin.
Liberals whine because they are out of ideas. They are a coalition of weird people!
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Post by junia on Sept 5, 2004 10:53:09 GMT -5
Aaaaaahhhh. Nothing like a well researched, literary masterpeice like this to stimulate the brain.
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Post by Just Here on Sept 5, 2004 12:23:30 GMT -5
Examples: 1. Owl Gore got cheated in Florida because of the closeness of the vote. 2. Texas redistricting. Never mind that DEMOCRATS in their heyday under LBJ, Sam Rayburn and others had gerrymandered the districts!! 3. Zell Miller turned against poor John Liberal MA Kerry!! 4. Willie Horton defeated Dukakis in 1988!! 5. Max Cleland lost a senate race in GA because Saxby Chambliss questioned his patriotism. 6. Swift boat vets are out to get John Kennedy Kerry! I have been called, among other things, a liberal. After reading a post like this I consider it a honor. I realize all conservatives are not represented by this one poster but illogical and irrational rantings like this do little, in my mind, to further their cause. From the postings here it seems like it is the conservative side that brings up the points mentioned. Then any reply to the distortions and unfounded allegations are then called whining. Well, prior to your post the stupidity question was still a question but in my mind but your post has removed all doubt.
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chip
New Member
Read the Secret Sect book by Doug and Helen Parker
Posts: 12
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Post by chip on Sept 6, 2004 10:10:45 GMT -5
Liberals have done a lot for the country
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Post by inatent on Sept 6, 2004 11:39:41 GMT -5
Liberals have done a lot for the country So have alligators. inatent
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Post by Change on Sept 6, 2004 13:32:51 GMT -5
So have alligators. inatent By definition, liberals have been responsible for the changes in the US. Women voting and equal rights for minorities just to name 2 things.
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Post by inatent on Sept 6, 2004 17:07:23 GMT -5
By definition, liberals have been responsible for the changes in the US. Women voting and equal rights for minorities just to name 2 things. Women and minorities in positions of real authority are usually conservatives. inatent
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Post by Robb Klaty on Sept 6, 2004 21:07:09 GMT -5
Present, it is nice to see that you have finally accepted the dreaded "liberal" label after so many posts to the contrary. Maybe we can now all finally agree that generally speaking, yours and John Kerry's ideologies are liberal and stop playing games with the words and their meanings that most everbody (in the US) already understands. Those previous exchanges were so exhausting.
Robb
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Post by Just Here on Sept 8, 2004 8:56:21 GMT -5
Present, it is nice to see that you have finally accepted the dreaded "liberal" label after so many posts to the contrary. Perhaps you need to re-read my post. I did not say anything other than to remark that if the poster was a conservative that in comparison it would be an honor to be called an liberal. Someone might call me a princess as well and, even though calling me that would not change the facts, I would consider it a nice thing to be called. Some of the ideas are liberal in that they are a change from the status quo. They are proposals for reforms and are tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others. If they are so well understood perhaps you could point out the difference between the definitions I posted and the ones that you seem to be attaching to the word liberal. On the other hand there are conservatives who support a woman's right to decide. There are "liberals" who are against allowing abortions. Arnold Schwarzenegger is pro-choice, pro-gun control, and pro-gay rights. Generally, he is not considered liberal. So before we start using the terms, I think it is a good idea to be certain of what the terms mean to different people. New ideas are always hard to get you mind around at first. But using words with a common meaning is really the only way people hold a meaningful discussion. Trying to believe things that one thinks are impossible is difficult and, I imagine, tiring. But as the Red Queen in Lewis Carroll’s Alice in Wonderland said: "I dare say you haven’t had much practice....When I was your age I did it for half an hour a day. Why sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
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Post by Agreed on Sept 8, 2004 16:51:02 GMT -5
Perhaps you need to re-read my post. I did not say anything other than to remark that if the poster was a conservative that in comparison it would be an honor to be called an liberal. Someone might call me a princess as well and, even though calling me that would not change the facts, I would consider it a nice thing to be called. Some of the ideas are liberal in that they are a change from the status quo. They are proposals for reforms and are tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others. If they are so well understood perhaps you could point out the difference between the definitions I posted and the ones that you seem to be attaching to the word liberal. On the other hand there are conservatives who support a woman's right to decide. There are "liberals" who are against allowing abortions. Arnold Schwarzenegger is pro-choice, pro-gun control, and pro-gay rights. Generally, he is not considered liberal. So before we start using the terms, I think it is a good idea to be certain of what the terms mean to different people. New ideas are always hard to get you mind around at first. But using words with a common meaning is really the only way people hold a meaningful discussion. Trying to believe things that one thinks are impossible is difficult and, I imagine, tiring. But as the Red Queen in Lewis Carroll’s Alice in Wonderland said: "I dare say you haven’t had much practice....When I was your age I did it for half an hour a day. Why sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
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Post by Robb Klaty on Sept 8, 2004 18:26:35 GMT -5
Present,
What terms would you use to describe the ideologies of the following people:
1. John Kerry 2. Rush Limbaugh 3. Alan Keyes 4. Ted Kennedy 5. Me
Robb
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Post by anonymous on Sept 8, 2004 18:33:20 GMT -5
Liberals are more for a poor man thats the way It Is In Canada anyway- all rich conservatives are looking for Is a right off for all the money they have saved If coservatives have there way they'll destroy the canada pension plan because they think It Is costing canadians too much money too bad thats what the plan was brought In for In the first place-was so a poor man could have a dollar In his pocket.There Is nothing wrong with the canada pension plan..gov't waste and mis managment Is another story
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Post by Some say on Sept 8, 2004 22:17:16 GMT -5
Liberals want to give a man a fish (after taking it from a succesful fisherman).
Conservatives want to teach a man to fish and then treat him like any person capable of catching his own fish.
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Post by Just Here on Sept 9, 2004 9:01:49 GMT -5
Present, What terms would you use to describe the ideologies of the following people: 1. John Kerry 2. Rush Limbaugh 3. Alan Keyes 4. Ted Kennedy 5. Me Robb Robb, I have often posted what I believe the meaning of the term liberal to mean. Very simple - copied directly from the dictionary. To save anyone the time of looking it up I will repost it: A) Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry. B) Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded. C) Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism. I have a feeling that this is not the meaning you are attaching to the word when you use it. I don't think any of the people named would fix completely into that liberal box. Kerry and Kennedy are just less conservative. And, of course, Rush is a disc-jockey that was bought and paid for way back when ABC was owned by Capital City. He continues to act the role required. When you use the term liberal what do you mean?
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Post by Robb Klaty on Sept 9, 2004 14:36:02 GMT -5
A very interesting response. Is there anyone who would generally fit the liberal definition? Or are we all just more or less conservative? ;D
Robb
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Post by Just Here on Sept 9, 2004 15:37:29 GMT -5
A very interesting response. Is there anyone who would generally fit the liberal definition? Or are we all just more or less conservative? ;D Robb The answer to that question will have to wait until you shed some light on how you define liberal. In some posts a person has been labeled liberal if they support same sex marriage. Somehow I don't see D ick Chaney being called a liberal.
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Post by Robb Klaty on Sept 10, 2004 8:10:34 GMT -5
Why does it matter how I define liberal? I was asking you for clarification.
Ok, I will play along just to see what happens...Here are some general labels for the following people. I recently saw a Fox news clip that included most of these poeple in this order and I agree with their general definitions. The story had to do with showing where Michael Peroutka was on the political landscape. The list starts from far left (liberal) and moves toward far right (conservative).
Ralph Nader -ultra liberal Michael Moore - ultra liberal You -?? Ted Kennedy - liberal John Kerry - liberal D i c K Cheney - conservative GW Bush - conservative Alan Keyes - ultra conservative Me - ultra conservative Michael Peroutka - ultra conservative
I wonder if you are going to now point out the exceptions (like Mr. Cheneys pro sodomite position) in attempt to disprove the above generalization or if you will finally offer your own similar general list based on your own understanding of the terms.
Robb
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Post by to Robb on Sept 10, 2004 20:23:04 GMT -5
I live in Illinois and will be voting for Alan Keyes. I would probably be shot point blank if my neighbors knew.
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Post by inatent on Sept 11, 2004 1:15:15 GMT -5
I live in Illinois and will be voting for Alan Keyes. I would probably be shot point blank if my neighbors knew. Hey, I can't travel that far. How about casting an extra vote or two for me while you're at it! inatent
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Post by Robb Klaty on Sept 11, 2004 8:10:45 GMT -5
I was not aware that Keyes was running in any State. On which party ticket? Please clue me in. Keyes actually pulled a decent percentage of the primary vote in 2000 here in Michigan. What fun it would be to have Keyes in the White House. ;D
Robb
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Post by Just Here on Sept 11, 2004 11:44:00 GMT -5
Why does it matter how I define liberal? When people are discussing various topics it is impossible to communicate unless the words that are being used have a meaning that is understood by all involved. Let try to explain this with an example. I have decided to give you a new car and want to be sure that you like the gift. I call you and ask you what color you would like. You respond "red". I take that at face value and, like many people, assume you mean you desire a car that tends to reflect light with a wavelength of about 650 nanometers. But when you say red you actually mean light with a wavelength of about 475 nanometers. So instead of car that reflects the color you call red you get something else. It is clear that you do not attach the same meaning to the word liberal as I do or as the dictionary does. Is there some reason why you will not enlighten us? I have, more than once, posted the exact meaning I attach to the word liberal. Catagorizing people does not define the word. As has been noted, people at each end of the spectrum often share beliefs on some topics. Once again, I have clearly defined the meaning I attach to liberal. It is you who has been reluctant in offering your definition.
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Post by Just Here on Sept 11, 2004 12:04:58 GMT -5
I was not aware that Keyes was running in any State. On which party ticket? Please clue me in. Keyes actually pulled a decent percentage of the primary vote in 2000 here in Michigan. What fun it would be to have Keyes in the White House. ;D Fun? At least he is flexible and not locked to his convictions. If I remember correctly, he was very much opposed to Hillary Clinton for running in NY, a state she did not live in. But then, Alan is a resident of Maryland. On the other hand, I do feel sorry for Alan. He has been cannon fodder for the Republican party whenever they need someone to run.
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Post by Robb Klaty on Sept 11, 2004 21:12:37 GMT -5
So again I ask... is there anyone you could point out who fits the definition?
Robb
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Post by Just Here on Sept 13, 2004 14:50:46 GMT -5
So again I ask... is there anyone you could point out who fits the definition? Robb I do not think there is any person who fits the description on all of the issues. As opposed to being liberal most people are, in my opinion, liberal on some issues and not liberal on others. Embracing change just for the sake of change is not aways a good thing but being willing to look at and try new avenues is. Sticking to existing norms just because we have in the past is, I think, a worse path to take. Getting rid of slavery was a liberal stand. Giving women the right to vote was a liberal stand. Allowing anyone to marry the person they wish is a liberal stand. Once the liberals have made the change, the ideas that work are embraced by the conservatives. I think many people are using the obsolete (again, according to the dictionary) meaning of liberal - Morally unrestrained; licentious. I should also point out that still you have not offered a definition of what you consider liberal to be. You have listed people but, as we know, they have a wide range of beliefs. Go ahead, take a stab at it.
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Post by botany on Sept 13, 2004 17:37:27 GMT -5
Examples: 1. Owl Gore got cheated in Florida because of the closeness of the vote. 2. Texas redistricting. Never mind that DEMOCRATS in their heyday under LBJ, Sam Rayburn and others had gerrymandered the districts!! 3. Zell Miller turned against poor John Liberal MA Kerry!! 4. Willie Horton defeated Dukakis in 1988!! 5. Max Cleland lost a senate race in GA because Saxby Chambliss questioned his patriotism. 6. Swift boat vets are out to get John Kennedy Kerry! When I hear these liberals whine, it insults me to think that THEY THINK I AM SO STUPID that I listen to campaign spin. Liberals whine because they are out of ideas. They are a coalition of weird people! And I don't suppose you're whining, either? andy
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Post by Robb Klaty on Sept 13, 2004 18:30:48 GMT -5
Honestly I really don't know. We hear the word used on a daily basis, but according to the formal definition it really doesn't make sense in the context it is used. When the term "liberal" is used, I suspect most people think Ted Kennedy, John Kerry or Jesse Jackson and the public policies that these people hold to like... gun control, increased taxes, increased government entitlements, government health care, abortion on demand, etc. So I am conflicted... there is the formal defintion and then there is the defintion that the majority of Americans understand. What are we to do with that? I suspect that since the term has been used to descibe certain people and there ideologies that many would like to run from the commonly understood term due to the unpopularity of the public policy accociated with the term. I would too.
Robb
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Post by inatent on Sept 13, 2004 19:06:36 GMT -5
Honestly I really don't know. We hear the word used on a daily basis, but according to the formal definition it really doesn't make sense in the context it is used. When the term "liberal" is used, I suspect most people think Ted Kennedy, John Kerry or Jesse Jackson and the public policies that these people hold to like... gun control, increased taxes, increased government entitlements, government health care, abortion on demand, etc. So I am conflicted... there is the formal defintion and then there is the defintion that the majority of Americans understand. What are we to do with that? I suspect that since the term has been used to descibe certain people and there ideologies that many would like to run from the commonly understood term due to the unpopularity of the public policy accociated with the term. I would too. Robb My thoughts would be the same as yours. It is sort of like communism. When practiced by those who claim it's definition, somehow they wind up exactly the opposite! inatent
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Post by Just Here on Sept 14, 2004 9:18:01 GMT -5
Honestly I really don't know. We hear the word used on a daily basis, but according to the formal definition it really doesn't make sense in the context it is used. It just happens to be one of my pet peeves! I find it difficult to discuss things unless everyone is clear on what the words mean. I have to agree with you, even though this is not at all with what liberalism is all about. Chalk it up to the connotation and denotation of the words in question. It happens all of the time. You would but about 50% of the voting public will not. A poll today in Investor's Business Daily shows both at 47% with a 3.5% MOE. Monday September 13, 2004--The Rasmussen Reports Presidential Tracking Poll shows President George W. Bush with 47% of the vote and Senator John Kerry with 46%. All the 'liberals' have not run away - yet!
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