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Post by RT on Aug 9, 2004 15:37:25 GMT -5
There is hardly any disagreement that from the earliest stages a developing embryo is fully human.
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Post by Just Here on Aug 9, 2004 17:34:10 GMT -5
So society is the standard? If a society says that killing Jews is not murder than it is not? That is right. Murder is the unlawful killing of one human by aother. Society decides what is lawful and what is not. When God commanded people to kill their enemies it was not murder. When David killed Golith it was not murder. When he sent Uriah into battle it was. If you want to talk about the ethics of homicide that is another story. As I said before, I am opposed to the killing of humans. Yes, I do. Society's laws do not make killing right or wrong. They do determine whether it is unlawful (murder) or not. I believe killing is wrong. Always. I do not think it is ok because there is a war. I do not think society can say it is OK because it is self defense. Unlike the standards you have expressed, I do not justify killing because society has said it is OK. I question the validity of voluntary manslaughter and feel sorry for anyone involved in involuntary manslaughter.
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Post by Just Here on Aug 9, 2004 17:39:49 GMT -5
There is hardly any disagreement that from the earliest stages a developing embryo is fully human. Define "fully human". What do you mean by earliest stages? Single cell? If there was no disagreement I would think there would be no discussion. Why do you think there are questions regarding stem cell research? Robb may complain about my request for specific details but the devil is always in the details!
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Post by inatent on Aug 9, 2004 19:03:58 GMT -5
. . . . Yes, I do. Society's laws do not make killing right or wrong. They do determine whether it is unlawful (murder) or not. I believe killing is wrong. Always. . . . . I'll send all those mosquitos your way. ;D But seriously, you don't believe a police officer should kill a person who is in the process of killing other people, so as to save lives? (Shooting to maim rather than to kill is not always an option.) inatent
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Post by Curious on Aug 9, 2004 19:44:54 GMT -5
Curious, Jesus did not bring God's law to man. God had already given it to man through Moses. Jesus did however, quote from God's law. Jesus is God, therefore he brought the law to man in the OT and he brought mankind his gospel in the NT. In the NT, gentiles and Christians were not expected to follow all the old laws of the OT. Where in the NT does it say that Jesus taught that murder was still punishable by death? Jesus brought a more loving, peaceful, turn the other cheek way in the NT.
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Post by Just Here on Aug 9, 2004 19:56:20 GMT -5
I'll send all those mosquitos your way. ;D This souds like a comment I would have made! I should have used homicide. I believe that for me it would be a wrong choice. I would not elect to be a policeman. I am sure others have their own standards. I am not saying that they are wrong to kill a person in the course of doing their duty but I am saying that for me it would not be an option.
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Post by inatent on Aug 9, 2004 20:01:04 GMT -5
. . . .I believe that for me it would be a wrong choice. I would not elect to be a policeman. I am sure others have their own standards. I am not saying that they are wrong to kill a person in the course of doing their duty but I am saying that for me it would not be an option. Fair enough! You are at least consistent, except that you don't see the existence of a human as early in the process, and on that single matter the whole abortion issue hinges. I don't see how anyone can deny that a human is made at the point of conception - that is where it has all of its human characteristics; what follows is various stages of maturation. inatent
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Post by Just Here on Aug 9, 2004 23:26:40 GMT -5
You are at least consistent, except that you don't see the existence of a human as early in the process, and on that single matter the whole abortion issue hinges. I completely agree. At the moment of conception (fertilization) you have a single cell. It has the characteristics of ... a single cell. Even later in development I am not certain about how "human" the embryo is. While it is true that these can develop into a human the same could be said of any egg and sperm. There are some issues that come up as well. If an individual is created at the moment of fertilization, what happens in the case of identical twins, when there is only one instant of fertilization but down the road there are two or more individuals formed. This would lead one to believe that the formation of the individual is not at the moment of fertilization. What are the things that are make a human? When are they present in the developing fetus? Somewhere between the mass of undifferentiated cells and the delivery the indivual comes into being. The question is - when.
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Post by inatent on Aug 10, 2004 0:01:48 GMT -5
. . . . What are the things that are make a human? When are they present in the developing fetus? Somewhere between the mass of undifferentiated cells and the delivery the indivual comes into being. The question is - when. No question for me! inatent
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Post by no name on Aug 10, 2004 11:05:51 GMT -5
Uh. I'm sorry, but I totally don't follow the above comment. What do you mean can develop? We know that a fertilized human egg will result in a HUMAN -- not a dog or a cat or a chicken, for goodness' sake!
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Post by Just Here on Aug 10, 2004 14:48:43 GMT -5
Uh. I'm sorry, but I totally don't follow the above comment. What do you mean can develop? We know that a fertilized human egg will result in a HUMAN -- not a dog or a cat or a chicken, for goodness' sake! I used can because most likely the fertilized egg will not develop into a human. Once the sperm and the egg combind, the resulting zygote moves along the fallopian tube, dividing and forming first a morula and then a blastocyst. It is thought that the vast majority of these (50%-75%) will never develop beyond this stage because they will not implant into the uterine lining and will be expelled. Of the zygotes that do implant some will be rejected and be expelled. During the course of development some of the developing embryos will mutate so dramatically that they will have little semblance to a human and, in some cases, the mutation will be so severe that life itself will not be possible. These too will ultimatly be aborted. So when I wrote the phrase: "While it is true that these can develop into a human the same could be said of any egg and sperm." it was because the odds that a zygote will fail to develop into a human are much greater than the odds that it will. Also, when I mentioned "any egg and sperm" I should have indicated that I meant human gametes.
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Post by inatent on Aug 10, 2004 16:09:09 GMT -5
Uh. I'm sorry, but I totally don't follow the above comment. What do you mean can develop? We know that a fertilized human egg will result in a HUMAN -- not a dog or a cat or a chicken, for goodness' sake! Why does it take 1000 sperm to find one egg? . . . . they are afraid to ask directions inatent
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Post by Just Here on Aug 10, 2004 17:16:44 GMT -5
Why does it take 1000 sperm to find one egg? You can do better than that! There are 40,000,000 of them on average!
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