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Post by happy on Jun 8, 2006 10:27:36 GMT -5
In another thread, Nathan wrote:
Good question on the Major women prophets and none of the apostles Jesus called were women....
This is my understanding.... I don't know why Jesus didn't sent out women apostles in Matthew 10 and Luke 10. He must have his own reasons for not doing it. We can ask him that when we see Him in eternity.
However, in Acts 2:16-21 we read that women apostles, preachers or evangelists were part of God's planned that was prophesied in the O.T. (Joel 2:28,29)
It was fullfilled in (Acts 2) it shall come to pass in the last days , saith God, "I will pour out my Spirit (Holy Spirit) upon ALL flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: and on my servants and 'HANDMAIDENS (women) I will pour out in those days of my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.... And who shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be SAVED."
~~~ We read in Acts 3,000 and 5,000 souls were SAVED through this awesome miracles in Acts 2.
However, in Acts we read there were women apostles called and sent forth in the ministry..
Acts 21:8,9 (Philip had 4 daughters prophesied) Romans 16:1,2 Phebe received her in the Lord. Romans 16:12 Tryphena and Tryphosa who labored in the Lord.
Philippians 4:3 Paul wrote: Help those women who labored with me in the Gospel whose names are written in the book of life.
I have read the Vaudois apostles (A.D. 70-1800) church history they always had women apostles or preachers among them for centuries.
[glow=red,2,300][glow=red,2,300][glow=red,2,300][/glow]I have read the passages. I am really wondering about women Apostles. Many of the verses you mentioned use the word "servant". I did a little study and the word servant is not synonymous(sp??) with Apostle. In fact, couldn't we all be servants of God? It is a term with specific meaning in the F/W, as we all know, so it makes it odd to think of Christians being his servants. If the HS works thru us, we are His servants....?
Then, it talks of laboring in love with him....could that not be sisters in Christ? Couldn't some of those have been caring women with families, possibly? Also, the wives of the Apostles would have labored in love with them for the gospel's sake.
Prophesying....why only Apostles? Couldn't this be a gift of a Christian?
I'm not seeking argument, but I've studied the place of women, for my self, and I don't see women in a place of leadership. Teaching...yes. Preaching....I'm not sure.
Thoughts? [/glow][/glow]
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Post by ClayRandall on Jun 8, 2006 10:33:38 GMT -5
Happy, you can probably guess where I stand on this issue...
For Nate I would point out that even the gift of prophesy does not confer upon women a position of leadership.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2006 10:36:54 GMT -5
In my understanding, a woman can be gifted/enabled, and can hold any office in the church except for elder.
We would let a qualified woman preach/teach as she acted within the gifts God had given her, and under the authority of the local body's elders. She should not be the lead teacher though, that should belong to the eldership.
There is no precedent for placing a woman in the place of ultimate authority in the body. Even Deborah was one of the judges, not the judge.
This exception does not seem to be based on anything except God's chosen order.
Karl
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Post by happy on Jun 8, 2006 10:37:34 GMT -5
I'd make a good Catholic, huh Clay?
If I didn't take Sundays off from excercise I might be able to convert! Y'all do some major calesthenics in Mass! (smiles.)
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Post by happy on Jun 8, 2006 10:41:26 GMT -5
So Karl, Comparing Bible language to modern....what are you?
I see where there were several women prophetesses....but I see no mention of women Apostles.
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Post by ClayRandall on Jun 8, 2006 10:42:58 GMT -5
I'd make a good Catholic, huh Clay? If I didn't take Sundays off from excercise I might be able to convert! Y'all do some major calesthenics in Mass! (smiles.) Yup. I've gotta take my Ibuprofen before Mass to get loosened for all that kneeling and standing! :-)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2006 10:43:00 GMT -5
I am a teaching elder, enabled as a pastor teacher, and serving as the lead elder in this local body.
Karl
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Post by happy on Jun 8, 2006 10:45:05 GMT -5
Whew! Quite a title! So in the Bible...what is a pastor?(what word) Could a women be a Pastor in your church? or is that an elder?
Some churches call their leaders ministers, reverends, etc. Same thing as a pastor?
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Post by happy on Jun 8, 2006 10:47:07 GMT -5
Side note Clay: I had to take a local child to the Catholic church last week. (long story) Why do they do greetings in the middle of the service? (Peace be with you....)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2006 10:55:48 GMT -5
A pastor is a person gfted as a pastor teacher. In most protestant churches "the" pastor, would really be the lead elder.
A woman could not be the lead pastor, or lead elder. She could be a leader over a certain aspect of ministry though, we have a few women like that, but always under the authority of the elders.
Personally, I simplify things by asking that everyone address me as Karl. ; )
Karl
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Post by ClayRandall on Jun 8, 2006 12:47:31 GMT -5
Side note Clay: I had to take a local child to the Catholic church last week. (long story) Why do they do greetings in the middle of the service? (Peace be with you....) It's basically supposed to be a sign of affection, unity, and reconciliation. One of the best explanations I've heard is by referring to Matthew 5:23-24: "If you bring your gift to the altar and there recall that your brother or sister has anything against you, leave your gift at the altar, go first to be reconciled with your brother or sister, and then come and offer your gift."In other words, before receiving the Body and Blood of Christ, we make sure to show a sign that communion with Christ is the same as communion with your brothers and sisters in Christ.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 8, 2006 13:29:27 GMT -5
Side note Clay: I had to take a local child to the Catholic church last week. (long story) Why do they do greetings in the middle of the service? (Peace be with you....) And why do the workers and their friends do it at the end of the meeting? Conveniece? Everybody is there then.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2006 13:58:15 GMT -5
Happy, where do you get the idea that there are any people possessing the Christian spirit that are exempted from the privelage of sharing the warmth of Christ with others?
Leadership!! None of us are authorized to make personal choises for others -- but ALL of us have the responsibility of taking a needy fellow-traveler by the hand and leading them to comfort. Why should women be exempt? Jesus never mean leadership to be an institution.
Teaching!! God has shared the beauty of his truth with us --- None are exempt from the privelage of sharing this with others. Christian history has proven that women are every bit as apt in this as men.
Preaching!! Why should sharing the Gospel become an institution dependant on the anatomical design of the body?
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Post by happy on Jun 8, 2006 15:31:46 GMT -5
Edgar, I believe everyone is able to share Jesus and should. What I am referring to is church leadership within organized denominations including F/W. Everything else, as far as Christians in general, I agree with what you've posted.
Clay..actually that kinda makes sense. Thanks for explaining. I thought it was just to say hello and wondered why!
GregLee..I'm not poking fun. I'm exploring and learning and I'm not afraid of my ignorance so I ask questions. Have you noticed!?? Ha. Some of the rituals of churches have some cool origins, really.
Thanks everyone! Keep on sharing.
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Post by Follower on Jun 8, 2006 15:37:12 GMT -5
Side note Clay: I had to take a local child to the Catholic church last week. (long story) Why do they do greetings in the middle of the service? (Peace be with you....) And why do the workers and their friends do it at the end of the meeting? Conveniece? Everybody is there then. Are you saying that when we shake hands at the end of meeting that this is the same as passing the peace?
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Post by jxr on Jun 8, 2006 19:15:06 GMT -5
Side note Clay: I had to take a local child to the Catholic church last week. (long story) Why do they do greetings in the middle of the service? (Peace be with you....) I was in a Catholic wedding ceremony quite some time back, and as a then (more) ignorant F&W, I responded with, " pleased to meet you too". I might have understood what they were saying if they hadn't mumbled it.
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Post by amazed on Jun 8, 2006 23:19:35 GMT -5
Why is it that only the workers can spread the Gospel? I believe that it is something we should all do. Women and Men can spread the Gospel but women should not have authority over men and as I understand it, the sister workers are over the elders or am I not correct in this assumption?
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Post by tellingthetruth on Jun 8, 2006 23:38:56 GMT -5
Correct "amazed".
A 25yr old sister worker has authority over a 70yr old elder. Is this Biblical? No it's not.
Are women apostles Biblical? No they're not. This is why there is a problem with the sister worker and the elder.
God's order is not being followed.
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Post by amazed on Jun 9, 2006 8:19:15 GMT -5
Correct "amazed". A 25yr old sister worker has authority over a 70yr old elder. Is this Biblical? No it's not. Are women apostles Biblical? No they're not. This is why there is a problem with the sister worker and the elder. God's order is not being followed. What kind of problem with the sister worker and the elder are you talking about? I Tim 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man; she must be silent. Also, as far as speaking in church: I Cor 14:34-35 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is a disgrace for a woman to speak in church. I imagine some will say that this only applies to married women, because it says to ask their husbands but the overriding theme here is that women shouldn't speak in church.
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Post by ClayRandall on Jun 9, 2006 9:01:58 GMT -5
I was in a Catholic wedding ceremony quite some time back, and as a then (more) ignorant F&W, I responded with, " pleased to meet you too". I might have understood what they were saying if they hadn't mumbled it. :-) Another place in the Mass where non-Catholics might feel weird is when we pray the Lord's Prayer. Catholics stop at "...but deliver us from evil" and the priest says, Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and give us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety, as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our savior, Jesus Christ.Then the doxology is added "for thine is the kingdom, power, and glory forever. Amen". You can tell who the non-Catholics are when they keep praying the doxology!
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Post by happy on Jun 9, 2006 9:02:34 GMT -5
Nathan, I respect that you've done your own research etc. If you don't care to share more of what you've found, that is fine. If what you've listed is the extent of your research, I am not convinced. I am NOT doing this to prove the workers wrong/right. I am looking for Biblical truths to base my beliefs on. I know many sister workers I really like and respect. That is a completely different issue than trying to understand the Bible and God's order. Thanks, Happy
PS: But you know what really frustrates me?? Professing people won't discuss issues openly and honestly. It always comes down to "that is what I believe and I'm happy with it." If I hadn't encoutered this so much I would have never even resorted to message boards like this. Grrrrr.....
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Post by junia on Jun 9, 2006 10:54:18 GMT -5
PS: But you know what really frustrates me?? Professing people won't discuss issues openly and honestly. It always comes down to "that is what I believe and I'm happy with it." If I hadn't encoutered this so much I would have never even resorted to message boards like this. Grrrrr..... Well summed up Happy. Many f&w don't know what they believe and why they believe, so they avoid the tough issues and questions. Or deep down they know they can't defend their belief because they have a "simple faith". I think the anti-intellectualism is based on fear.
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Post by Hope For All on Jun 9, 2006 16:40:53 GMT -5
PS: But you know what really frustrates me?? Professing people won't discuss issues openly and honestly. It always comes down to "that is what I believe and I'm happy with it." If I hadn't encoutered this so much I would have never even resorted to message boards like this. Grrrrr..... Well summed up Happy. Many f&w don't know what they believe and why they believe, so they avoid the tough issues and questions. Or deep down they know they can't defend their belief because they have a "simple faith". I think the anti-intellectualism is based on fear. Dear Junia, A bit of a sweeping generality don't you think? How can you judge what or why others believe what they believe-whether in or out of the F&W fellowship? And why is it a negative thing to not be able to explain your own faith. If you could explain it then it wouldn't be faith would it?? Of all the people in Heb 11- how many do you think could give some intellectual reason why they had faith in God and did the amazing things they did?? Noah- "uh ya I'm building this ark-even though I have no idea what rain is- bit I'm going ahead anyway because....because... well just because." Abraham- "I'm going for this little walk to kill my only son. Why? -oh- ah- well lets see......, well just because". David- "I've got this here bag of rocks and I'm gonna waste that giant'. How old am I you ask??- what does that matter??" Peter, James, John, Andrew et al- "Why did we just walk away from our day jobs to follow a man who claims to be God's son?? Well lets see...............Just because". SIMPLE FAITH ;D HFA
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Post by Hope For All on Jun 9, 2006 16:43:18 GMT -5
Oh and I forgot to mention what Jesus said, "God will hide things from the wise and reveal them to babes".
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Post by Roy on Jun 9, 2006 21:05:20 GMT -5
Nathan, I'm ashamed of you for using quote from a false preacher. SHAME ON YOU. Nothing those false preachers is of any value. Nathan, how can you use this type of information and still be a 2x2 and 2x2 supporter?
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Post by faith cushions on Jun 10, 2006 0:08:04 GMT -5
It is always very convenient for the faithful (of any sect or denomination) to fall back onto comfy faith cushions, when challenged by uncomfortable questions.
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Post by amazed on Jun 10, 2006 7:47:18 GMT -5
We've been through this before. You can guess that ALL might mean THE MEN, since he is telling the women to keep silent. If I was speaking to a group of children and I said "You all will sing this verse, girls, you will not sing this verse" I would be clarifying the ALL. I don't believe women were on equal footing as the men so I imagine that anyone there would have understood what he was saying.
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Post by Jessi on Jun 10, 2006 22:31:43 GMT -5
Hiedi and Oliver are ADORABLE!
The I Corinthians 14:34 and I Tim 2:12 uses the term "in the churches" and "in the church". In a CONGREGATIONAL or CHURCH setting, a women is not to have authority over or TEACH a man. We are given an example of when a woman teaches a man BUT HER HUSBAND IS WITH HER and it is not in a church setting (Acts 18:24--28).
The Bible does not say that women cannot teach women or children or have a teaching ministry. But in a congregational, church setting, women should not teach or have authority over men. I Tim 2:12 even goes on to explain why - because the first woman was the one who was deceived, not the first man.
There it is. Not pretty. It doesn't seem fair. But neither, then, is a Christ who died on a cross for sins he did not commit. Yet, we rejoice. He is risen and is alive.
Joel 2:28/Acts 2:17 - are explained in vs 16: "THIS is THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel". Joel prophesied it would happen. That prophesy's fulfillment happened in Acts. And it has been over for quite some time.
Christ is God, Jessi
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