Post by living together on Jun 7, 2006 10:44:16 GMT -5
Reasons said:
what said:
A marriage that is unhealthy to begin with does not have much reserve for times of insult.
just my take, fwiw
All the more reason for people to live together before them make the legal move and get married. You cannot know what living with a person will be like until you have actually lived with them.
.........and living together can be a living hell if you are not compatible..........
This goes back to a point I made elsewhere about why I'm opposed to Workers, in general - there is no formal education in anything, much less on how to help members of your fellowship in need of marriage, personal or family counseling.
To any Workers reading this, pay very close attention to what I say. You have got to know how to serve your people in every way, not just enforcing rules on TVs in the home and the clothing choices of women. The Holy Spirit is not just some magic Genie whose bottle you rub in a time of crisis, hoping for the right instruction.
Hope is not a strategy.
Thought provoking post, Clay....
I thought there were no rules to be enforced in the truth {?}. What's your take on that? And if there are no rules to be enforced, then why is there such a big issue about certain ""things"".
Agree that the Holy Spirit is way beyond and above the magic Genie, of course, we all know that.....the Holy Spirit is Holy, Divine.......spiritual. The magic genie is just a fable, like Alladin's lamp or something........go ahead and make those *3* wishes, but only God has the power to make them come true, right?
** I find your last comment the MOST INTERESTING out of your entire post; and would you please give more of your own input on what your view is of HOPE ? I agree that hope is not a 'strategy', but what role would hope play in different strategies on life?
Post by ClayRandall on Jun 7, 2006 11:01:38 GMT -5
HRL said:
Thought provoking post, Clay....
I thought there were no rules to be enforced in the truth {?}. What's your take on that? And if there are no rules to be enforced, then why is there such a big issue about certain ""things"".
Agree that the Holy Spirit is way beyond and above the magic Genie, of course, we all know that.....the Holy Spirit is Holy, Divine.......spiritual. The magic genie is just a fable, like Alladin's lamp or something........go ahead and make those *3* wishes, but only God has the power to make them come true, right?
** I find your last comment the MOST INTERESTING out of your entire post; and would you please give more of your own input on what your view is of HOPE ? I agree that hope is not a 'strategy', but what role would hope play in different strategies on life?
Hope my questions are not intrusive......hrl
I don't mind at all.
Since this thread is about marriages, I'll use that as an example. Take a husband and wife who are in a very troubled marriage. They can choose to do nothing but continue on "hoping" that things get better.
Or, they can choose to get help from some other source (including prayer, of course). They can go to counseling and learn how to communicate better. They can gain insights into their relationship from an outside, unbiased therapist, etc.
Hope still plays a part in getting help, because if there is no hope they would't bother trying in the first place.
"it is an act of charity to cry out against the wolf when he is among the sheep, wherever he is." - St. Francis de Sales
This goes back to a point I made elsewhere about why I'm opposed to Workers, in general - there is no formal education in anything, much less on how to help members of your fellowship in need of marriage, personal or family counseling.
To any Workers reading this, pay very close attention to what I say. You have got to know how to serve your people in every way, not just enforcing rules on TVs in the home and the clothing choices of women. The Holy Spirit is not just some magic Genie whose bottle you rub in a time of crisis, hoping for the right instruction.
Hope is not a strategy.
Hi Clay,
I really don't believe that any minister should be called upon to be a marriage counselor as such a Field is specialized and takes years of study to become qualified. Do you go to a car groomer to get your engine overhauled? no you leave the groomer to the grooming and a mechanic looks after the motor. In the case of the workers they themselves have never been in a marriage so they are out of the loop on both counts having no training and no experience. Spiritual guides/ministers/priests should be there as spiritual guides only , concerned only with the spiritual side of life and leave the counseling to those that are qualified.
I have heard of some who go to there spiritual leader for everything even financial advice to my way of thinking that is asking for disaster. Like asking a taxi driver how to fly a plane once you've got it in the air.
[shadow=red,left,300]Regards BC[/shadow]
To be or not to be is not the question, but how to be.
Post by Bryanfromalaska on Jun 7, 2006 15:06:53 GMT -5
BC,
I think you will find is that there are ministers out there who are also marriage counselors in their own right. Our own pastor counseled Tanya and I when we got married.
Since marriage is such a spiritual union, it makes perfect sense that the person counseling you is your pastor.
I have heard of some who go to their spiritual leader for everything-even spiritual advice.........and to my way of thinking-if they haven't been educated in spiritual matters, Biblical history, scripture interpretation, Biblical culture, Biblical languages that is asking for disaster. Like asking a taxi driver how to fly a plane once you've got it in the air.
I have heard of some who go the workers for everything-and they [workers] have been educated in nothing.
Post by ClayRandall on Jun 7, 2006 16:33:22 GMT -5
bc said:
I really don't believe that any minister should be called upon to be a marriage counselor as such a Field is specialized and takes years of study to become qualified. Do you go to a car groomer to get your engine overhauled? no you leave the groomer to the grooming and a mechanic looks after the motor.
Of course. I didn't mean to give the impression that I expect a minister to be a licensed therapist or whatever. This does not, however, excuse someone from needing to receive at least a rudimentary education in how to counsel someone in both spiritual and mental health issues.
bc said:
In the case of the workers they themselves have never been in a marriage so they are out of the loop on both counts having no training and no experience.
I disagree.
What about an unmarried marital counselor? What about a male OB/GYN? I've never had congestive heart failure, but I still know how to treat it...
This is actually another reason why simply relying on past experiences is inadequate, IMO.
Last Edit: Jun 7, 2006 16:33:38 GMT -5 by ClayRandall
"it is an act of charity to cry out against the wolf when he is among the sheep, wherever he is." - St. Francis de Sales
Hi Clay, I agree with a lot of what you say that is why I said that they are out of the loop is because they have nothing to fall back on, not education and definitely not experience.
Marriage while it is a spiritual bonding is primarily a natural relationship, the major effects of, and affects on a marriage are prob 90% natural. In this world the pressures on marriages and what causes a marriage to fail are those pressures from around us, natural occurrences such as the No 1&2 reasons Money and Work. These have NO spiritual relevance and no amount of spiritual input alleviates this pressure, sure advice and counseling can help us handle this stress. No. 3 reason is infidelity and this is perhaps one area where spiritual guidance could help but our reaction to infidelity is purely natural and often needs addressing in the natural human way first before the spiritual side and implications can be sorted through.
I can see where you are coming from and believe that there a place for counseling in the spiritual side of our lives and marriages but I firmly believe that we are first natural then spiritual and that there is a need to address each as it is, natural and spiritual.
Some would say that if our spiritual life is in order and producing the fruits of the spirit then the natural side of life will follow. This to some extent is true but we are human and there are going to be failings and to minimize the effect on ourselves and those around us we need to have a handle on our natural lives as well.
Can I use another analogy. If a climber has an ice pick and a safety rope he doesn't throw either away but uses them both in conjunction with each other for different situations. leaning more to one in this situation then to the other in another situation. We live natural lives, with natural people , doing natural things so we use natural intellect and reasoning and reactions for these situations. They are impacted on by our spiritual situation/beliefs and this will affect the given outcome to a certain extent but on the whole the natural forces will govern. The same as in our spirituality that the natural side of life impacts on our spiritual lives to a certain degree.
Reading through this it looks like I'm going in a large circle but I know what I mean. he he. So hope you can get even a glimpse of where I'm coming from.
[shadow=red,left,300]Regards BC[/shadow]
To be or not to be is not the question, but how to be.
I was a "younger companion" worker for awhile in the 90's and I was appalled by the fact that my coworker and I were called on by some REALLY messed up couples and we were supposed to "counsel" them. We had NOTHING to give them from a practical standpoint! Sure, we could spout off a few verses about Christ loving the church, and being in submission, blah, blah, blah, but no real specific guidance.
My coworker had enough of his own emotional issues to keep a therapist on permanent retainer, and I was no pro in the counselling department--I'd read "Men are from Mars..." so I had a leg up, I guess And here we were giving "marital advice" to some very needy folks! Seems ludicrous now. Of course, the friends were always advised to talk to the workers, not therapists, for any kind of family problem, so they called on us. I think workers ought to stick to preaching and leave the counselling to someone who knows what they're talking about!
Post by the counselor on Jun 8, 2006 3:39:19 GMT -5
Clay, there is a difference to counseling marriages and fixing a heart....We nearly all have marriages so we nearly all have training and first hand experience in marriage but we do not all have first hand experience in fixing a heart so we need training to fix a heart.
I think a pastor is a great asset if he is married to counsel someone in marriage. We need to go to someone so why not go the pastor for Godly wisdom. Having someone to pray with us is good to bring God into the situation.
BC, communication problems are the number one breakdown in marriages.
I was a "younger companion" worker for awhile in the 90's and I was appalled by the fact that my coworker and I were called on by some REALLY messed up couples and we were supposed to "counsel" them. We had NOTHING to give them from a practical standpoint! Sure, we could spout off a few verses about Christ loving the church, and being in submission, blah, blah, blah, but no real specific guidance.
My coworker had enough of his own emotional issues to keep a therapist on permanent retainer, and I was no pro in the counselling department--I'd read "Men are from Mars..." so I had a leg up, I guess And here we were giving "marital advice" to some very needy folks! Seems ludicrous now. Of course, the friends were always advised to talk to the workers, not therapists, for any kind of family problem, so they called on us. I think workers ought to stick to preaching and leave the counselling to someone who knows what they're talking about!
So did you encourage these REALLY messed up couples to seek professional counselling? It's one thing to give spiritual guidance, but it is entirely different (and negligent) if you recognise your own limitations yet don't encourage these people to pursue professional services.
This is where many of the workers fall down. They are apt to spurn professional (worldly) counselling services, yet are entirely inadequate at filling the bill. I've heard cases where workers laid the blame for a marriage breakdown on the parties not praying enough. If that's all it took for success, we could all be like workers and spend all day in our bedroom's.
With due respect to God's power and all, I think He expects us to get off our arses sometimes and pursue some things for ourselves. I think God's power is manifest in our own actions, at least in some part.
Marriage while it is a spiritual bonding is primarily a natural relationship, the major effects of, and affects on a marriage are prob 90% natural.
BC,
I see what you're saying and can agree with much of it. Where we may differ in opinion is in the significance of marriage. Certainly it is a natural relationship, but I know you would agree that it is more than that. I view it not only as a spiritual/emotional bond, but also as a sacrament - a visible sign of God's grace.
Clay
"it is an act of charity to cry out against the wolf when he is among the sheep, wherever he is." - St. Francis de Sales
"They do not offer pre-maritial counseling for engaged couples. In most cases they do not even perform the marriage ceremony. And they do not offer any sort of counseling IF problems arrive after marriage. So it doesn't appear that marriage is high on their priority list."
I don't agree with this. The fact that they do not do thing for which they are not qualified does not mean that marriage is seen as undesirable, low priority.
Clay, there is a difference to counseling marriages and fixing a heart....We nearly all have marriages so we nearly all have training and first hand experience in marriage but we do not all have first hand experience in fixing a heart so we need training to fix a heart.
I agree that fixing a heart, as you put it, is very important. In fact, sometimes you have to fix the heart before you fix a marriage.
I still maintain that simply being married is not sufficient "training" for marriage counseling. Just because you might be married does not necessarily qualify you to counsel troubled marriages, any more than having procreated a few kids makes you qualified to counsel children...
"it is an act of charity to cry out against the wolf when he is among the sheep, wherever he is." - St. Francis de Sales
And as any sweeping generalization it isn't worth crap.
Which is a sweeping generalisation in itself. Why do you post such crap?
Commenting on generalizations, a specific class of statements, is not a generalization at all. It is stating without generalization that your statement, a generalization, is crap.
I also believe as "the counselor" stated, that communication skills or lack there of is the number one factor in successful or unsuccessful marriages.
I don't believe that being married qualifies anyone to be a marriage counselor. I know as many unhappily married people as I know happily married couples.
Why is it that (most) workers do not attend weddings?
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
"The 2x2 doctrine is carefully designed to wreck the marriage of proffessing people with 'outsiders' "
The word "designed" implies a deliberate intention to wreck marriages - that doctrine has as its purpose the wrecking of marriages.
Is this seriously what you mean?
2x2 doctrine defines all non-proffessing folks as inferior beings as far as righteousness is concerned -- as such, the spirit of all non-proffessing folks is an evil to be resisted.
How this kind of a spirit between a man and wife can be fostered 'twice a week' without being a threat to a marriage is hard for me to imagine!!
Regarding a persons partner to be inferior in righteousness, is hardly in the recipe book for successful relationships!!
I think that some of the attitudes fostered and taught in the group are detrimental to a certain degree-but I have seen unhealthy as well as healthy marriages in the group,so I would say that the individuals,not the group are responsible for the quality and duration of the institution of marriage.
Apparently, (and I cannot back this up off-hand), the rate of divorce among evangelicals in the USA is higher than the rate of divorce in general across the USA.
Using the logic of many of the above posters, that would suggest that evangelical Christianity is bad for marriages.
Post by Possibility on Jun 11, 2006 13:45:36 GMT -5
Helen Montgomery (elderly sister worker) once stated they don't get involved in marriages or perform marriage ceremonies because marriage is a civil matter.
I don't agree that marriage is "just" a civil matter. I believe marriage is created by GOD as we see in GENESIS and the civil authorities provide a public seal and acknowledgement through the marriage license and certificate etc. Just like the ring exchanged between husband and wife serves as a public indication of their bond
Helen Montgomery (elderly sister worker) once stated they don't get involved in marriages or perform marriage ceremonies because marriage is a civil matter.
I don't agree that marriage is "just" a civil matter. I believe marriage is created by GOD as we see in GENESIS and the civil authorities provide a public seal and acknowledgement through the marriage license and certificate etc. Just like the ring exchanged between husband and wife serves as a public indication of their bond
Interesting to note that for 2x2s marriage is a civil matter -- but divorse and remarriage is grounds for declaring folks hellbound!!! -- and rejecting their friendship.
I don't agree that marriage is "just" a civil matter. I believe marriage is created by GOD as we see GENESIS and the civil authorities provide a public seal and acknowledgement through the marriage license and certificate etc. Just like the ring exchanged between husband and wife serves as a public indication of their bond
That fact not withstanding, marriage has been historically a civil matter. It involved the exchange of property (usually women for other goods but sometimes the woman had to be accompanied by additional goods) and frequently the promise of protection or an alliance between the families.
As far as marriage in Genesis - unless I am wrong (and I am not) there is no mention of marriage in Genesis. Adam and Eve were just told to go out and have at it.
Religion did not enter into it for thousands of years.
You could argue that it is a religious matter but in that case it is a matter between the couple and their God(s).
There is at least an indirect mention of marriage in Genesis...in describing Adam's reaction to meeting Eve, the author then explains that it is this that causes a man to leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife, which is kind of funny (to me) because this reaction comes on the heels of having sorted through all the beasts and not finding a suitable match. Anyway, the words "husband" and "wife" are used in the creation stories, but not specifically the word "marriage" or "wedding".
Everyone, in some small sacred sanctuary of the self, is nuts. - Leo Rosten, author (1908-1997)
Is it inconsistant that 2x2 doctrine will recognize marriage performed by those they regard as 'false prophets´ --- but not baptizm -- and definately not the service of these same folks to encourage folks in godliness.
"Is it inconsistant that 2x2 doctrine will recognize marriage performed by those they regard as 'false prophets´ --- but not baptizm -- and definately not the service of these same folks to encourage folks in godliness. "
charlesfoxtrot: The FBI is seeking victim voices of the 2x2s. Report at: www.fbi.gov/2x2
Feb 21, 2024 13:27:31 GMT -5
Deleted: I saw yesterday that a letter sent to members of a church was actually copied, and distributed all over the world. I think it was Paul's letter to the Corinthians.
Jan 23, 2024 14:50:44 GMT -5
chap5act38: I never would put letters of preachers sent to members of any church at a website. How would you like it, when i put a letter of your husband to you in public? Well, not very decent. In ALL churches there are some not good. Ok, let it, and live for God.
Nov 16, 2023 12:40:00 GMT -5
chap5act38: there are about 1000 sort of churches. If we make of all wrong churches a website like this. We don't have time to look for where God wants us to be at Sunday. I never would make of any wrong church a website, you keep on 'hanging' in what hurted.
Nov 16, 2023 12:37:53 GMT -5
chap5act38: Every wrong Group I was in, God showed it to me. No woman or man had to do that. I saw it and went away.
Nov 15, 2023 17:06:27 GMT -5
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chap5act38: God is Almighty, leave it to Him, He can open eyes.. He doesn’t need you 4 that.
Nov 15, 2023 17:05:02 GMT -5
chap5act38: I prefer to put time in looking 4 a good Group. Life is short. Why time many years for this? You look obsessed... People after all do what they want. So …
Nov 15, 2023 17:00:15 GMT -5
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chap5act38: Get a life miss Kropp…
Nov 15, 2023 16:58:38 GMT -5
chap5act38: Poor miss Kropp. All money + time y put in this. Can’t believe it. But you must be obsessed totally. Go and look 4 another church. Give them time etc
Nov 15, 2023 16:57:57 GMT -5
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chap5act38: what If you fight against God…. If it is not good, once y see. I was in wrong Groups, glad to be away when I discovered it was wrong.. If I would make a Website of all wrong groups it hurts only.. and there are many many wrong groups..
Nov 15, 2023 16:56:50 GMT -5
chap5act38: why put time etc in this church? When you don’t want it, look 4 another one. If you write about all wrong churches you never will have a life and time for work etc.
Nov 15, 2023 16:51:03 GMT -5
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chap5act38: Well, when y do not like this church, surch further! I don’t understand a person that is giving so much time to this. Look for a church y think is ok. I was long ago in wrong groups, but God showed me that! Don’t need y. to see it.
Nov 15, 2023 16:49:36 GMT -5
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countryroads: There seem to be various versions of the rumor about Frandle floating around. The latest is that he went to a couple of conventions in the western part of the U.S. and was denied entry. These unconfirmed stories are perhaps actively harmful in that, if unt
Aug 10, 2023 9:27:03 GMT -5
Deleted: Ah your opinion he is Greek, good to know...
Jul 30, 2023 15:55:33 GMT -5
BobWilliston: That's what I said -- he was Greek. The great Saint Augustine explained how he injected Paul's christian thought into "Christianity". Remember, Paul wrote that he was only interested in "Jesus the christ", not Jesus the man or Jesus the messiah.
Jul 29, 2023 20:57:29 GMT -5
Deleted: Paul was greek? Where does it say that?
Jul 16, 2023 8:29:47 GMT -5
BobWilliston: Yes, being a Greek Jew, he was referring to the style of a Greek "christ", as opposed to a Jewish "messiah". The Jews never look(ed) for a "christ" -- they only expected a "messiah". The foundation of Christianity through Augustine.
Jul 15, 2023 23:34:56 GMT -5
darrell: In the 2nd chapter of 1st corinthians Paul said when i first came unto you i determined not to know anything among you but Jesus Christ and him crucified.Nothing complicated.Not a list of rules.But the vital piece of doctrine that is before any behaviour.
Jun 17, 2023 12:48:17 GMT -5
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