juju
Senior Member
Posts: 263
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Post by juju on May 18, 2006 13:35:31 GMT -5
I am a single parent. He is two. Beating is wrong so I won't do it. When I tell him to sit in a chair, he won't do it. Tieing him to the chair is wrong so I won't do it. Personally restraining him is not possible because he will bite, hit, kick, and scratch. Talking to him doesn't work, because as soon as he figures out its a lesson, he takes off. Grounding him doesn't work, because he always has something else to do. Bribing him doesn't work, because he seems to know I'm attempting to obtain his obedience. Finally he, in another act of defiance, climbs over the child gate and falls down a flight of hardwood stairs: A broken arm, A broken ankle, 44 stitches on his head and arm, and a newfound morbid fear of stairs. And now he has decided to start sticking thin objects in the electrical outlets, after prying off the plastic child-proof protector caps. I love him with every fiber of my being. Wasn't that enough? Where did I go wrong? I fear for his safety. IMO you didn't go wrong at all. You can make some changes though, and as the mother of a 2 year old son, here would be my suggestions.....Quantity time is so much more important than quality time. Your son desperatly wants your undivided attention and he wants nothing more than to please you. I would get a backpack that was comfortable for you and him and start packing him in it.....When you cook,clean, groceryshop,go for walks,and even to put him to sleep. Give yourself to him unconditionally. Meet all his NEEDS in a loving gentle way. Smile every time you see his face, call him by his name. Let him know that you WANt nothing more than to hang out with him. Get a book on attatchment parenting.....William Sears is a good advise giver on these things. Anyway....I wish you all the best
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Post by mrleo unplugged on May 18, 2006 14:21:02 GMT -5
Admin, could you check into the formatting of this thread? And perhaps at this point it should be moved to the Worldly board? Thanks!
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Post by Loving mom on May 18, 2006 15:53:17 GMT -5
A pediatrician suggested some techniques (redirection, distraction). It seemed to work at first, but then he seemed to 'catch on' and the techniques lost effectiveness.
Another pediatrician suggested spanking him.
A third pediatrician referred us to a pediatric dietician. He suggested a change in diet (less sugar). This helps him settle down at bedtime but has little other effects (we are still doing this though).
We saw two counselors. They suggested some techniques, which like before seemed to work before he 'caught on'.
Yesterday I was bringing him to his dads and he unbuckled his seatbelt and opened the car door when we were going down the freeway. I've never been so panicked.
His dad (my ex) and I get along well enough to talk about it but we never seem to make any ground in the what-to-do-about-it department.
Thank you all for your suggestions, but we've traveled many of those roads already. I now it sounds bad to say I've already tried that, but, I really have.
The most frustrating thing of this whole thing is that when he is at his dad's, he never has these problems. He talks about daddy all the time and how daddy doesn't get mad at him like I do. He worships his dad and some times I think he considers me his babysitter or something- just someone he has to tolerate inbetween visiting his dad.
Feeling hopeless.
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Post by nitro on May 18, 2006 16:06:27 GMT -5
[quote author=mrleo unplugged board=general And perhaps at this point it should be moved to the Worldly board? Thanks![/quote]
Mr. leo why would you want to do a thing like that! This is a trait instilled into 2x2"s from the very beginning. I must have witnessed 100 of more 3yrs and younger being taken out of a 2hour meeting getting beat for not sitting still. Why would this be Worldly. An OK vice for good parenting when in "TRUTH".
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Post by mrleo on May 18, 2006 16:16:14 GMT -5
Point taken, nitro.
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Post by bowhunter on May 18, 2006 17:00:38 GMT -5
In some states,including Iowa it is not agaist the law to spank your children. Don't be so smug. In Iowa: Child endangerment includes using unreasonable force, torture, or cruelty which results in physical injury, is intended to cause serious injury, or causes substantial mental or emotional harm. Sec. 726.6.[Cr.] Physical injury could be a bruise caused by spanking or pulling too hard on a child's arm. Those of us who have had to pick up the pieces after parents have disciplined their children do not believe anyone has a right to hurt another person for the purpose of teaching them a lesson. No, I think not. Those of you who think that correcting a child's behavior by making them fear being hurt if they do something wrong are confusing pain with love. Because you are stronger, the child is helpless against you. Why do you feel the need to hurt a child to teach them? I would guess you cannot imagine a way to teach and discipline a child without hurting them and exerting your dominance over them. After watching some people interact with their children I can say with certainty that there are people who know better how to raise children. Bad manners are not corrected with punishment. A good example and a kind voice will win out every time over pain and punishment. Oh yes. As fast as you can get rid of the openness and expression of emotions. Hide those emotions and never, on pain of being spanked, ever express your emotions. Besides, it takes too much time to teach children how to keep these qualities and still interact in a sociably acceptable way. Best to just spank them and have them repress their feelings. It is not the norm because it is quicker to spank than to inform and teach. There is rarely, if ever, a situation that could not be better dealt with with love, explanation, and understanding than with physical force. Managing behavior with fear of punishment has never been a good solution. Do you have the same feelings about abortion? If you feel the need, go ahead and kill the unborn? I am opposed to abortion.Murder is never the right answer.(also the right context for abortion instead of 'kill') It appears that you are deliberately equating abuse and discipline.Be careful in assuming you can determine whether someone's methods or motives are abusive.Obviously you are employed and trained to intervene in abuse cases.If thats the case you would be educated enough to know the difference between a swat and striking-I notice the code you quoted left out a swat that leaves no mark-that is what spanking is supposed to be and in more cases than you seem to want to acknowlege,is what is used as discipline as opposed to outright harm to the child. You are the one who is smug-you have no idea what my children have been taught or how they have been treated!You have no idea what my temperment is-you are incorrect to assume I am in any way mistreating my children. Even by other folks standards as conveyed to me in compliments and comments my children are well mannered and have consideration for others as well as decent manners.They also are not always little angels and need to be reminded that bad behavior is not acceptable in our family and has undesireable consequenses. You are in lala land if you really believe that leading only by example and kind words will be enough for every child/situation. As an adult,you would recieve more than an example and kind words if you break a law or an employers rule-you would recieve a reprimand(unkind words) at the least and jail time (punishment) at the worst. Do you step into traffic and let yourself get mowed down to demonstrate by example that traffic is dangerous?(Children learn best by example you know! ) Do you teach a child not to torment another child or a pet by example if the child has a notion or bent in that direction?Or,do you punish the child to demonstrate that there is a consequence for harming others?How about avoiding peer pressure?Drugs?Sex? Talking and being a good example is wonderful and I agree that it is vital but know from experience it isn't always enuff-some children need more 'encouragement' for various reasons. By encouragement,I mean consequences or punishment besides spanking such as revoking privileges,standing in corners,etc. Sometimes that's not enuff either,unfortunately.Some kids are messed up beyond a parent's ability to correct. I know that I don't have all the answers,I just know from experience and observation what consistantly has worked for as long as parents have been around. I certainly don't advocate abuse or being vindictive. Parent's have the right and obligation to have children born to them or adopted,and I believe have the right and moral obligation to raise them in a moral,disciplined healthy manner. You don't have to agree with conventional child rearing methods any more than I have to agree with new age methods. I am not forcing my opinion on others merely relating my opinion and experience and expect the same courtesy from others. You are entitled to an opinion,but please don't accuse me of abuse,etc.and please don't tell me how to raise my kids.
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Post by obvious on May 18, 2006 17:15:29 GMT -5
so lemme get this straight Nitro.
the 2x2's use spanking so its wrong?
not EVERYTHING they do is wrong... unless you plan on never drinking water again.
oh, and loving mom, I've figured out what your problem is...
...
!!!YOU SPARED THE ROD!!!
...
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Post by nitro on May 18, 2006 17:24:46 GMT -5
so lemme get this straight Nitro. the 2x2's use spanking so its wrong? not EVERYTHING they do is wrong... unless you plan on never drinking water again. ... ... [/quote Not 2x2 water ;D I do remember you! You were the one given Mom of the year award for beating Three of your kids in one meeting.Leslie white presented this on national 2x2 day.Of course it was OBVIOUS who was going to win.
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Post by bowhunter on May 18, 2006 17:37:46 GMT -5
I've been thinking about my experiences working with children with developmental disabilities. Physical disclipline was not an option for a variety of reasons, legality among them. As others have mentioned in regard to non-spanking techniques, creativity and redirection was key. They had to be protected from themselves and each other and the public. Now, if it doesn't make sense to hit a person with a two-year old mentality in order to teach them to behave properly, why does it make sense to hit a "normal" two year old? I think the term"developmentally disabled" maybe be key to your question."Normal" kids may understand better-you refered to that in a previous post-refering to correcting a child who places themself in danger. Do you mean spank or hit?I'm confused - unless I missed it, you haven't used the two terms interchangeably before.
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Post by IllinoisGal on May 18, 2006 18:04:01 GMT -5
I am curious to know how many children we all have..My kids are now grown ..I say Thank you Jesus!!
Did I spank? Yes. However that wasnt nessesary alot because I started teaching them right from wrong from the time they were old enough to understand. My kids were generally pretty well behaved.
Are they warped as adults from a swat on the rump? Not hardly. I did it because I love them and wanted them to do right.
I like hearing everyones opinions on this subject..
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Post by bowhunter on May 18, 2006 18:18:28 GMT -5
I am curious to know how many children we all have..My kids are now grown ..I say Thank you Jesus!! Did I spank? Yes. However that wasnt nessesary alot because I started teaching them right from wrong from the time they were old enough to understand. My kids were generally pretty well behaved. Are they warped as adults from a swat on the rump? Not hardly. I did it because I love them and wanted them to do right. I like hearing everyones opinions on this subject..[/quote My wife and I have 2.Teen and pre-teen.Our experience is identical-little needed in the way of spanking. I grew up in a 2x2 home where spanking was used as needed-nobody was ever 'hit' as our parents loved us and the occasional cousins firends who stayed with us and expected us to behave and were not using that type of punishment as an outlet for their frustrations.My non-professing neighbor's and relatives were given permission to discipline us if needed and we were always assured of a safe,nonabusive atmosphere. We (I knew anyway) understood it would be for our good.I don't know of any of those folks having to do more that remind us that we would get punished at home too,if someone else had to get after us,even just verbally. I had a great childhood and great parents! ]
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Post by Gene on May 18, 2006 18:35:45 GMT -5
Yes, bowhunter, you did -- and the love and respect in your family was wonderful to behold.
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Post by mrleo on May 18, 2006 18:59:22 GMT -5
Well, that's what I'm not sure of myself...is there a difference between, let's say, a 16 y/o with a 2 year old's reasoning skills and an otherwise normal 2 year old--besides the difference in physical size and the amount of damage the 16 y/o could do if they hit you back?
In my mind, I tend to make a distinction with the former because I think to myself, "They may look like an adult but they're disabled--they don't know what they're doing and they never will." Whereas, with a "normal" 2 year old, I might be apt to think, "They may not understand now, but they will later, and so this spanking may be allowable now while they are small and impressionable and then it can be phased out as their language and reasoning skills develop." But I'm not sure it's a fair or a logical distinction.
In this case, when I say hit, I mean hit/spank in order to discipline...hit just seems more true to the situation when you're dealing with someone your own size.
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Post by bowhunter on May 18, 2006 19:34:03 GMT -5
Thank's for the clarification.I think that reasoning is logical and fair.There is definitely an age when spanking becomes inappropriate.(That age varies,imho) I have always felt that the difference was-a hit was a punch meant to inflict damage or pain,as one would strike someonelse in a fight,while a spanking was not neccesarily painful but enough force to get the attention of the child and change the behavior. The spankings I recieved were never percieved as a hit,and I don't recall any lasting effects that were physical-the prospect of the humiliation of recieving correction was usually enough to discourage me,especially as a pre-teen,from transgressing. Of coarse there were times I took my own way and got what I deserved.I never doubted that my parents meant well and knew I had gone way too far if the stick had to be used.
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Post by mrleo on May 18, 2006 20:08:17 GMT -5
See, that's where I draw the line. No matter how well-meaning parents may be, when a stick becomes part of the disclipline it's the parents who have gone too far.
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Post by IllinoisGal on May 18, 2006 20:19:59 GMT -5
mrleo. I doubt he actually meant a "stick". I never used a single thing but my hand and I never swatted anywhere but on the backside.
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Post by obvious on May 18, 2006 21:10:11 GMT -5
and here comes nitro...
ohhh, he dodges!
and the crowd goes wild...
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Post by realistic on May 18, 2006 21:25:33 GMT -5
Does anyone have any idea why so many children today have no respect for others?
As adults, when we misbehave, the world gives us a beating.
What's wrong with kids learning this before the world is forced to hand them a bruising?
All you touchy feely types make me sick.
"My parents never spanked me and I turned out fine. In fact, I got paroled early because of good behavior!!!"
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Post by IllinoisGal on May 18, 2006 21:29:43 GMT -5
Great Realistic..be sure and dont violate your parole or its back to the slammer for you! ;D
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Post by bowhunter on May 18, 2006 21:45:11 GMT -5
mrleo. I doubt he actually meant a "stick". I never used a single thing but my hand and I never swatted anywhere but on the backside. Actually I did-my parents had a lath board from a wall demolition that was used.It was smaller by alot than the paddle(canoe size almost,it seemed) that the principal used at school. The stick at home was very effective and used sparingly.
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Post by nitro on May 18, 2006 21:45:20 GMT -5
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Post by Gene on May 18, 2006 22:09:08 GMT -5
mrleo. I doubt he actually meant a "stick". I never used a single thing but my hand and I never swatted anywhere but on the backside. Oh, yes -- yardsticks were for more than measuring, and wooden spoons were for more than stirring. And then there was the belt that was 2 feet wide, 9 feet long, and had nails in it. Oh no, my mistake -- that was a bill cosby routine.
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Post by bowhunter on May 18, 2006 22:20:06 GMT -5
Now that I think about it,society started it's latest slide downward on the long slippery slope to societal decay when principals lost the power to discipline.
Sorta up a creek without their paddles!! ;D
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Post by You are right on May 18, 2006 22:57:48 GMT -5
Get rid of this New Age crap. Stick to the tried and true methods of long ago.
Disobedient children must be executed.
He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. -- Exodus 21:15
He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 21:17
God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. -- Matthew 15:4
This will cut down on the backtalk.
Have an extra daughter or two? Well, in times past that was potential income. Lets return to the days of selling daughters(Exodus 21:7
But Psalms really reflects the mood of the good old days and some who post here: Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
It seems there is a feeling that children cannot be taught and disciplined without inflecting pain.
Where does this thought process come from?
Spanking does teach children.
It teaches them at least two things:
1) hitting people is okay 2) violence works
Don't like what your sister is doing? Give her a wack. It must be OK. Mom and Dad do it. It expresses love for your sister.
And if you are raising your children so they will become parents who will spank their children then this is the right road to take.
It is simply a contradiction to tell children not to hit other children and then to turn around and hit them yourselves. Don't believe for a moment that th kids won't notice your hypocrisy.
Children learn good behavior by imitating good behavior and they learn respect by being respected.
The bottom line is that you spank your child to inflict pain. If a spanking doesn't hurt it is useless.
Or is it?
Done correctly, a spanking can also humilate the child. Destroying self-esteem may be even more effective than physical pain.
Emotional pain is much longer lasting.
And then there are those who spank out of love.
Try to imagine a child being spanked by their parent and being told that this is an act of love. No confusion there. So when little Sammy grows up he will at least have good memories and a good foundation for expressing his feelings. If he is lucky, his mate will have been raised being told that inflicting pain is an expression love so they will be as happy as pie.
Spanking does haave a serious drawback: Kids get bigger. If spanking is the only tool you have in your toolbox, spanking that 18 year old could be a challenge.
So where does it leave us?
Many seem to think spanking is ok. "I was spanked as a child and I am OK" say the supporters. Big surprise that they are people who spank their children. They were taught that hitting was OK and might makes right.
How does one justify inflicting pain on their children?
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Post by It was effective on May 18, 2006 23:02:11 GMT -5
The stick at home was very effective and used sparingly. It certainly was effective. It taught you that hitting was OK. An expression of love even. Imagine if the stick had the nails in it. That would have been even more effective. Pain. You either love it of hate it.
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Post by Howard6 on May 19, 2006 0:28:57 GMT -5
LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT...
My son does something wrong. I've told him not to do it twice. This is his third time doing it and he is getting more blatant in his
behavior. Now so many of you say that spanking is wrong, that when I spank my son, I'm teaching him that violence (hitting) is
acceptable. Let's look at some of the alternatives...
Force him to apologize: Now I'm teaching him that it is okay to lie to get out of trouble - to say things insincerely for the sole
purpose of escaping scrutiny.
Give him a dose of his own behavior: Now I'm teaching him that it is okay to be a vigilante - to seek a type of tit-for-tat revenge
against others.
Take his bicycle away: Now I'm teaching him that it is okay to harm other's health - to deprive them of healthy physical activity.
Take his Xbox (or some other toy) away: Now I'm teaching him that it is okay to steal - to deny other's access to their own personal
property.
Make him sit in a chair: Now I'm teaching him that it is okay to hold someone hostage - to confine them in an area without the freedom
of movement.
Force him to perform an unpleasant chore: Now I'm teaching him that it is okay to enslave others - to force them to perform duties
against their will.
This is all spin - just like saying that spanking teaches violence.
SPANKING IS A FORM OF PUNISHMENT THAT TEACHES CHILDREN THAT THIER ARE CONSEQUENCES FOR BAD BEHAVIOR; IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TEACHING THEM VIOLENCE. IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH PREPARING THEM FOR LIFE!
As for this New Age garbage; "Just talk about it" - How insane can you be? Shall tear all the jails down and just start talking to
those who violate laws. Here's a picture for you: murderers, rapists, and child-molestors, all running free, but only after someone
"talks to them" about their crime. What a load of CRAP!
You anti-spanking bigots are the most narrow-minded lot of knee-jerking emotional cry-babies I've ever seen.
Raising a child takes love. Genuine love. Did you hear that? GENUINE LOVE. Not the lip-service version that so many of you seem entrenched in; "Oh, I love him, but not enough to MAKE SURE that I successfully teach him right from wrong."
(I'm done for now. Now "nitro", "respect", "Ahh yes", "Words", "Someone", "Reality", "Loving mom", "You are right", and all of the other touchy-feely emotionally-abused anti-spanking bigots on this board can have a go at picking at what I've just written with thier emotional brand of "logic".)
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Post by Howard6 on May 19, 2006 0:31:42 GMT -5
(Sorry for the formatting problem in my last post... trying again.)
LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT...
My son does something wrong. I've told him not to do it twice. This is his third time doing it and he is getting more blatant in his behavior. Now so many of you say that spanking is wrong, that when I spank my son, I'm teaching him that violence (hitting) is acceptable. Let's look at some of the alternatives...
Force him to apologize: Now I'm teaching him that it is okay to lie to get out of trouble - to say things insincerely for the sole purpose of escaping scrutiny.
Give him a dose of his own behavior: Now I'm teaching him that it is okay to be a vigilante - to seek a type of tit-for-tat revenge against others.
Take his bicycle away: Now I'm teaching him that it is okay to harm other's health - to deprive them of healthy physical activity.
Take his Xbox (or some other toy) away: Now I'm teaching him that it is okay to steal - to deny other's access to their own personal property.
Make him sit in a chair: Now I'm teaching him that it is okay to hold someone hostage - to confine them in an area without the freedom of movement.
Force him to perform an unpleasant chore: Now I'm teaching him that it is okay to enslave others - to force them to perform duties against their will.
This is all spin - just like saying that spanking teaches violence.
SPANKING IS A FORM OF PUNISHMENT THAT TEACHES CHILDREN THAT THIER ARE CONSEQUENCES FOR BAD BEHAVIOR; IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TEACHING THEM VIOLENCE. IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH PREPARING THEM FOR LIFE!
As for this New Age garbage; "Just talk about it" - How insane can you be? Shall tear all the jails down and just start talking to those who violate laws. Here's a picture for you: murderers, rapists, and child-molestors, all running free, but only after someone "talks to them" about their crime. What a load of CRAP!
You anti-spanking bigots are the most narrow-minded lot of knee-jerking emotional cry-babies I've ever seen.
Raising a child takes love. Genuine love. Did you hear that? GENUINE LOVE. Not the lip-service version that so many of you seem entrenched in; "Oh, I love him, but not enough to MAKE SURE that I successfully teach him right from wrong."
(I'm done for now. Now "nitro", "respect", "Ahh yes", "Words", "Someone", "Reality", "Loving mom", "You are right", and all of the other touchy-feely emotionally-abused anti-spanking bigots on this board can have a go at picking at what I've just written with thier emotional brand of "logic".)
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Post by IllinoisGal on May 19, 2006 6:36:02 GMT -5
"OUCH" Bowhunter..I didnt get it with anything but a hand on my backside from my parents.
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