Do any of the F&W here disagree with ...

[Hope For All]

in said:

To Hope For All
Hi, I have enclosed a link to a nice little web site on the subject of martyrs. My suspicion is that early Christians (as opposed to Catholics!) were not only left alone within most of the Roman Empire, but perhaps respected for not involving themselves in the affairs of the state, paying their taxes etc.. Seems the persecution seriously started in AD 250, and was later ramped up by Christian Romans (ie the Catholic church) themselves.

www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/why/martyrs.html

Dear "In his defense",

Your suspicion is wrong. And it's these kinds of statements that make me shake my head.

Read any of the early writings by men like Justin, Tutullian, Ignatious, Polycarp etc, not to mention Paul and John and your suspicion will disappear.

The reason I object to this so stronly is it leads to false deductions.

Your logic goes like this:

1. Jesus partook of the passover in a home.
2. Therefore we MUST meet ONLY in homes.
3. Therefore the early Church met ONLY in homes.
4. We "suspect" that persecution was "sporadic".
5. Therefore Christians could have built church buildings but did not.
6. Therefore this is proof that you must meet in a home.

My logic is as follows:

1. The passover was to be partaken of with-in the city walls of Jeruselem. Jewish pilgrims came from all over the known world to do this.
2. Jewish families rented out rooms in the city to these pilgrims for this purpose. Jesus did what the pilgrims did-rented an upper room and held a private meeting with his diciples (note that the owner of the home was not in the "meeting") . Jesus never once commanded that you MUST only meet in a home.
3. The first Christians were far more concerned about fellowship and a united sense of community than with building "Christian Synagogues".
4. Persecution by both Jews AND Romans was intense right from the first. Most Roman Emperors demanded to be worshipped as Gods and would not stand for worship that threatened their power.
5. Christians met in whatever manner was practical and safe- this meant meeting in homes as well as in other buildings.
6. As the Christian Church grew, church buildings WERE built and later destroyed- then re-built again. All of this happened long before the RCC was ever established in about 325AD.

FWIW,
HFA

[Audrey]

er... you're welcome.

[as i c it]

Hope for all,

Good to see you back! Missed your opinions. And enjoyed what you just wrote.

Audrey (and in his defence),

Thanks for the laugh!!! (and what you've written as well). I always enjoy good conversation....and examination...for enlightment on a topic.)

[Hope For All]

as said:

Hope for all,

Good to see you back! Missed your opinions. And enjoyed what you just wrote.

Audrey (and in his defence),

Thanks for the laugh!!! (and what you've written as well). I always enjoy good conversation....and examination...for enlightment on a topic.)

You mean someone actually noticed I was gone? ;D

I took a break from participating as I was starting to feel like I was on a merry-go-round. You know- same topic- just a different day.

I also want to re-state that I am not against meeting in homes as this is what I do and find it works just fine. I am against condemning others for not meet in homes AND trying to say that the early Church was not persecuted but met in homes for doctrinal reasons.

Anyway, thanks for the encouragement!

Love,
HFA

[as i c it]

HFA,
I'm professing as well. And my hope (for all within our faith) is that sound doctrine (and "truth") would replace some of our faulty beliefs--such as the one mentioned above.

Meanwhile, I appreciate every voice that increases "awareness" and causes one to examine these issues. (And I think it IS an "awareness" problem...That too many have just parroted certain cliches, and "beliefs" without really stopping to look--and think--about the truth of those issues).

Becoming aware has awoken me...so...keep up the good work! (And I'm sure others missed you as well)

[InAnswerTo]

To Audrey
This excuse about Christians not building churches because of persecution is not your own opinion, it has been flogged by millions for centuries. Yes, it says the disciples had the doors closed for fear of the Jews, but they were meeting DESPITE the Jews.
And yes, there were customs that don’t appear to appear in our faith, such as distribution to the poor and fasting. I accept this and don’t want to explain it away, like many other things in the bible. But, I wouldn’t use that as an excuse to do FEWER of the things asked me of me.
“Hope For All” said he goes “nuts” over the statement that these people rejected buildings. But when I searched for “Christian, persecution, roman, jew” using Google it took me less than a minute to find corroborating facts that persecution did not establish the character of the church. You both could have looked that up.

www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/why/martyrs.html

Audrey, that so-called persecution is over: no Jew or Roman will hinder you from going to a church in a home.

Yes, it is very personal to have a church in your home – there’s a lot of commitment and involvement that ordinary folk don’t want. Back then the apostates thought it better to create a building and a class of people to manage it all for them. More things changed when that event happened than any other thing the apostates did. That’s ONE of the reasons why Jesus did not authorize any form of church building – you are meant to be the temple of God.

Now Audrey, you didn’t answer my earlier questions, did you? I am sure that if you came up with some clever retort I would have read it. Should that bother you? Instead you focussed upon something easy - you retreated to an old chestnut, a bit of old boiler plate text about Christians in hiding. God’s great plan, sidetracked by Jews and Romans in the catacombs.
This great Truth is not about black stockings, hair in buns or William Irvine, for these are just excuses. The Truth is, firstly, about being honest with ourselves.

[Audrey]

InAnswerTo said:

To Audrey
This excuse about Christians not building churches because of persecution is not your own opinion, it has been flogged by millions for centuries. Yes, it says the disciples had the doors closed for fear of the Jews, but they were meeting DESPITE the Jews.
And yes, there were customs that don’t appear to appear in our faith, such as distribution to the poor and fasting. I accept this and don’t want to explain it away, like many other things in the bible. But, I wouldn’t use that as an excuse to do FEWER of the things asked me of me.
“Hope For All” said he goes “nuts” over the statement that these people rejected buildings. But when I searched for “Christian, persecution, roman, jew” using Google it took me less than a minute to find corroborating facts that persecution did not establish the character of the church. You both could have looked that up.

www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/why/martyrs.html

Audrey, that so-called persecution is over: no Jew or Roman will hinder you from going to a church in a home.

Yes, it is very personal to have a church in your home – there’s a lot of commitment and involvement that ordinary folk don’t want. Back then the apostates thought it better to create a building and a class of people to manage it all for them. More things changed when that event happened than any other thing the apostates did. That’s ONE of the reasons why Jesus did not authorize any form of church building – you are meant to be the temple of God.

Now Audrey, you didn’t answer my earlier questions, did you? I am sure that if you came up with some clever retort I would have read it. Should that bother you? Instead you focussed upon something easy - you retreated to an old chestnut, a bit of old boiler plate text about Christians in hiding. God’s great plan, sidetracked by Jews and Romans in the catacombs.
This great Truth is not about black stockings, hair in buns or William Irvine, for these are just excuses. The Truth is, firstly, about being honest with ourselves.

Did I miss something? What earlier questions? I just went back over this thread and saw a couple of earlier posts by you, neither of which included questions. I also wasn't actually responding to any of your posts as far as I can tell.

I can assure you that I'm being completely forthright with my responses, not ducking any difficult topic at all. I truly do not feel that meeting in homes is important-- it happens to be where they met, big deal. They also rode donkeys and wore robes. Not trying to be flippant, but I'd already used the "pooling resources" and "taking meals together" thing.

Anyway, please feel free to ask those questions again and I will take care to answer them this time.