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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 12, 2015 21:34:39 GMT -5
Re the TLT I am reminded of what Jesus said about apostates: "When the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and not finding any, it says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when it comes, it finds it swept and put in order. "Then it goes and takes along seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first."
And then you see people behaving in a way they never did, or would dream of doing, before. That is pretty sobering. We know there are things that haven't been and still aren't what they ought to be. It's interesting that Matisse can see and say "There are some great people in the 2x2's, and some great things about being part of the 2x2's." But positive observations like Matisse's are rarely found on exe sites like TLT. I wonder why people like ilylo find themselves practically incapable of acknowledging anything good and right. Why is that?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 21:41:38 GMT -5
Quote - "I wonder why people like ilylo find themselves practically incapable of acknowledging anything good and right. Why is that?"
I know it's corny, trite and cliched - but I think it's true that bitterness plays a big part. Often people go through experiences when they come into our faith that only they know about. You hear some talk about their "struggles" without knowing what is going on. Later on they leave the faith and appear on the Internet, railing about how they weren't allowed to wear makeup, trousers etc.. Their bitterness suggests it wasn't the makeup at all. That's just a proxy for something deeper they won't talk about.
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Post by matisse on Aug 12, 2015 21:45:15 GMT -5
>snip>We know there are things that haven't been and still aren't what they ought to be. It's interesting that Matisse can see and say "There are some great people in the 2x2's, and some great things about being part of the 2x2's." But positive observations like Matisse's are rarely found on exe sites like TLT. I wonder why people like ilylo find themselves practically incapable of acknowledging anything good and right. Why is that? One might also wonder about people on the "inside" who seem incapable of acknowledging problems within the group. I think at least part of the answer to your question has something to do with this. My observation is that the "great things" about being a 2x2 come at a great cost (and not in the typical 2x2 sense of 'great cost'). IMO, evidence of that cost can be found in the pages of TLT.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 21:54:24 GMT -5
Quote - "problems within the group" As Snoopy would say, "Good grief" !!!! I hear people's problems every time I go to a meeting!!!! Last Sunday someone talked about learning to control their temper.
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Post by matisse on Aug 12, 2015 22:02:03 GMT -5
Quote - "problems within the group" ??? As Snoopy would say, "Good grief" !!!! I hear people's problems every time I go to a meeting!!!! Last Sunday someone talked about learning to control their temper. Did anyone talk about wanting to learn how to listen to others without immediately trivializing their concerns?
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 12, 2015 22:07:53 GMT -5
" Don't judge another until you have walked a mile in their shoes" Maybe this quote has something to do with it ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 12, 2015 22:11:33 GMT -5
Quote - "I wonder why people like ilylo find themselves practically incapable of acknowledging anything good and right. Why is that?" I know it's corny, trite and cliched - but I think it's true that bitterness plays a big part. Often people go through experiences when they come into our faith that only they know about. You hear some talk about their "struggles" without knowing what is going on. Later on they leave the faith and appear on the Internet, railing about how they weren't allowed to wear makeup, trousers etc.. Their bitterness suggests it wasn't the makeup at all. That's just a proxy for something deeper they won't talk about.Its very easy to stand back & judge bert, as you seem to do with issues like single mothers etc, but you have never been in that situation, the same as you don't understand what its like for people who are divorced, and many other issues. Maybe the thing they won't talk about is something they know that others will not believe, take girls that have been abused for example.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 22:35:55 GMT -5
" Don't judge another until you have walked a mile in their shoes" Maybe this quote has something to do with it ? How does that go? Don't judge a man until you walk a mile in his shoes. Then you can because you have his shoes and you are a mile away.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 12, 2015 22:36:13 GMT -5
>snip>We know there are things that haven't been and still aren't what they ought to be. It's interesting that Matisse can see and say "There are some great people in the 2x2's, and some great things about being part of the 2x2's." But positive observations like Matisse's are rarely found on exe sites like TLT. I wonder why people like ilylo find themselves practically incapable of acknowledging anything good and right. Why is that? One might also wonder about people on the "inside" who seem incapable of acknowledging problems within the group. I think at least part of the answer to your question has something to do with this. My observation is that the "great things" about being a 2x2 come at a great cost (and not in the typical 2x2 sense of 'great cost'). IMO, evidence of that cost can be found in the pages of TLT.I disagree with that. Anything good exists only at the expense of exes? What is good was bought and paid for by exes? That is very bizarre... I don't see how the good things and good people are connected in any way to exes. TLT et al acknowledge no good anyway, they reject the premise there is any good at all.
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Post by matisse on Aug 12, 2015 22:51:19 GMT -5
My observation is that the "great things" about being a 2x2 come at a great cost (and not in the typical 2x2 sense of 'great cost'). IMO, evidence of that cost can be found in the pages of TLT. I disagree with that. Anything good exists only at the expense of exes? That is a a very bizarre thing to say. I don't see how the good things and good people are connected in any way exes. TLT et all acknowledged no good anyway. I suggest you consider the possibility that you are not understanding what I am trying to communicate before you label my words and thinking "bizarre". I also suggest that you re-read what you wrote above and fill in any missing words so I can be sure I don't mistakenly assume an incorrect one. In the meantime, I'm signing off for the night.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 12, 2015 23:02:49 GMT -5
Well you'll have to explain what you mean because I'm not understanding. Sorry.
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Post by jondough on Aug 13, 2015 0:44:45 GMT -5
Well you'll have to explain what you mean because I'm not understanding. Sorry. Since Matisse is signing off, I'll attempt to explain what i think he/she meant. I think he/she meant the "cost" of having "good" "conforming" "pure" people is the exes. In other words, you get rid of them one way or another. Drive them out, ex-communicate them, whatever, and what you're left with is "good" "conforming", etc... I can't say I agree as I'm still here . I do have to say though, that I am sympathetic to those that have been hurt. I make no excuse for wrong behavior towards another. But that being said, our fellowship is made up of mostly VERY good, honest, imperfect people. I also think that many that HAVE hurt another may not even realize it. We get so caught up in the good, we may not realize there is someone sitting on the outskirts, feeling alone, left out, judged, or many other things. Its sad. Its sad that some are "bitter". I only feel sorry for them as someone that really is bitter, is really hurting inside. I also feel bad when some instigate, and agitate the bitterness. We just don't understand each other. There really are not very many "bad" people. I promise you this. Most people are good people that are mis-understood, or have a mis-understanding towards someone, or both. I hate it that it has to be, but I guess it will always be. Someday it will all be sorted out.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 13, 2015 1:30:28 GMT -5
Well you'll have to explain what you mean because I'm not understanding. Sorry. Since Matisse is signing off, I'll attempt to explain what i think he/she meant. I think he/she meant the "cost" of having "good" "conforming" "pure" people is the exes. In other words, you get rid of them one way or another. Drive them out, ex-communicate them, whatever, and what you're left with is "good" "conforming", etc... I can't say I agree as I'm still here . I do have to say though, that I am sympathetic to those that have been hurt. I make no excuse for wrong behavior towards another. But that being said, our fellowship is made up of mostly VERY good, honest, imperfect people. I also think that many that HAVE hurt another may not even realize it. We get so caught up in the good, we may not realize there is someone sitting on the outskirts, feeling alone, left out, judged, or many other things. Its sad. Its sad that some are "bitter". I only feel sorry for them as someone that really is bitter, is really hurting inside. I also feel bad when some instigate, and agitate the bitterness. We just don't understand each other. There really are not very many "bad" people. I promise you this. Most people are good people that are mis-understood, or have a mis-understanding towards someone, or both. I hate it that it has to be, but I guess it will always be. Someday it will all be sorted out. You've made a very understanding and sympathetic statement in support of many exes. Here's one of the problems -- the 2x2 system has an institutionalized culture of emotional abuse that masquerades as divine intervention. No one -- and I mean absolutely no one -- knows how someone else in their own meeting is being totally screwed over while putting their best foot forward at meeting to make everything look perfect. And the most abusive part of all is that once someone has to leave the "faithful" friends (who had no idea what was going on all along) obediently accept as divine council the advice of the workers not to inquire about what happened -- just trust the workers' version that THEY tried and the EX didn't cooperate. I would never ever have believed such a thing except that they worked me over for a whole decade until they about ruined my life -- and no one knew what was going on, or wouldn't hear talk of it, or didn't believe it because I wasn't a worker. All I can say is that most of those in this group who haven't left are continuing what happened during the last years while I was going to meeting -- they had no reason to suspect what was happening while I was in meetings, so why would they believe what they think I'm making up now that I don't have the threat of excommunication over my head. My best good best friends are mostly still happy going to meetings -- how hard does anyone think it is to have to make the decision to leave THEM all behind because your health and sanity has to come before them? Yes, there's a lot more going on that a dress code and all that trivia -- they're just symptoms of a complicated system of emotional abuse that most professing people AND most exes don't recognize. The reason they're bitter is because they don't have the tools to identify and deal with the abuse. And I fully expect my use of the word abuse will turn most innies off -- sadly that's still the problem. It separates people from their family and best friends.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 1:47:43 GMT -5
..........and there are those who are bitter towards those who are bitter about others' bitterness. Now, let's all get this bitterness out of our system and put the past behind us; don't look back or you may turn into a bitter pillar of salt just like a salty dog.It would seem nothing has changed, not a thing. Exes are bitter and those who are professing are bitter that exes are bitter and on it goes I guess. oh how bitter
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 13, 2015 2:02:32 GMT -5
Re the TLT I am reminded of what Jesus said about apostates: "When the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and not finding any, it says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when it comes, it finds it swept and put in order. "Then it goes and takes along seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first."
And then you see people behaving in a way they never did, or would dream of doing, before. That is pretty sobering. We know there are things that haven't been and still aren't what they ought to be. It's interesting that Matisse can see and say "There are some great people in the 2x2's, and some great things about being part of the 2x2's." But positive observations like Matisse's are rarely found on exe sites like TLT. I wonder why people like ilylo find themselves practically incapable of acknowledging anything good and right. Why is that? Not everyone has had a wonderful experience in the F&W way. The bad outweighs the good sometimes.
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Post by fred on Aug 13, 2015 3:34:34 GMT -5
Re the TLT I am reminded of what Jesus said about apostates: "When the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and not finding any, it says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when it comes, it finds it swept and put in order. "Then it goes and takes along seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first."
And then you see people behaving in a way they never did, or would dream of doing, before. "Apostates", I like that word Bert, I put it in the same category as "cult". But you are right about their behaviour, it's awful. The women with their hair styled, makeup, and to top it all, down the mall in slacks. Just recently I saw one of 'those men' down at the club and he was holding a glass of alcohol. It's no wonder we prefer to cross to the other side of the street.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 3:39:45 GMT -5
Sounds like a couple of people who might wind up here on the TMB.
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Post by matisse on Aug 13, 2015 8:15:24 GMT -5
Well you'll have to explain what you mean because I'm not understanding. Sorry. Since Matisse is signing off, I'll attempt to explain what i think he/she meant. I think he/she meant the "cost" of having "good" "conforming" "pure" people is the exes. In other words, you get rid of them one way or another. Drive them out, ex-communicate them, whatever, and what you're left with is "good" "conforming", etc... I can't say I agree as I'm still here . I do have to say though, that I am sympathetic to those that have been hurt. I make no excuse for wrong behavior towards another. But that being said, our fellowship is made up of mostly VERY good, honest, imperfect people. I also think that many that HAVE hurt another may not even realize it. We get so caught up in the good, we may not realize there is someone sitting on the outskirts, feeling alone, left out, judged, or many other things. Its sad. Its sad that some are "bitter". I only feel sorry for them as someone that really is bitter, is really hurting inside. I also feel bad when some instigate, and agitate the bitterness. We just don't understand each other. There really are not very many "bad" people. I promise you this. Most people are good people that are mis-understood, or have a mis-understanding towards someone, or both. I hate it that it has to be, but I guess it will always be. Someday it will all be sorted out. Hi Jondough, Thanks for taking a swing at interpreting what I (she) was trying to communicate! BobWilliston really drives to the heart of the topic for me in his post - especially the institutionalized aspects that a "satisfied insider" (I was one of these once) may not be in a position to see. I will try to say more later. For now, I would just say that I fully expect that the prevalence of good, honest people among ex's is just as high as it is among 2x2's. But maybe this is already your expectation as well. -Matisse
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Post by rational on Aug 13, 2015 10:23:17 GMT -5
Not everyone has had a wonderful experience in the F&W way. The bad outweighs the good sometimes. Generally people will stay in situations until the point when the cost exceeds the benefit. At that point, when looking back, the only parts seen are the costs. If you have invested in a car that has had nothing but problem after problem - new engine, expensive transmission repair, new brales, etc. - it is a rare person who looks back and comments on how wonderfully round the tires were.
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Post by blandie on Aug 13, 2015 12:15:47 GMT -5
I guess there maybe a few tire fetishists - oooh round tires and ours are the roundest - and there are people who focus on some other detail or because its the car that dad and granddad always drove. There exist fan clubs for Trabants and Vegas and Edsels and Yugos and the fans don't care about the crappy construction that doesn't even hold to whats in the specs and owners manuals and awful designs and that they need to be pushed a mile for every mile they run and all the detractors who point out its only layer after layer of added bailing wire holding them together are just bitter fault finders that have abandoned the one true auto thats the only one that goes back to the pattern Karl Benz gave on the shores of the Neckar and upheld by apostles Maybach and Daimler and Ford and the rest.
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Post by rational on Aug 13, 2015 14:02:24 GMT -5
I guess there maybe a few tire fetishists - oooh round tires and ours are the roundest - and there are people who focus on some other detail or because its the car that dad and granddad always drove. There exist fan clubs for Trabants and Vegas and Edsels and Yugos and the fans don't care about the crappy construction that doesn't even hold to whats in the specs and owners manuals and awful designs and that they need to be pushed a mile for every mile they run and all the detractors who point out its only layer after layer of added bailing wire holding them together are just bitter fault finders that have abandoned the one true auto thats the only one that goes back to the pattern Karl Benz gave on the shores of the Neckar and upheld by apostles Maybach and Daimler and Ford and the rest. I see where you are going. My point was (perhaps poorly made) that people stay with something until a cost-benefit analysis reveals that the benefit is no longer worth the cost. And at that point, once they abandon that item that cost so much that they no longer have it they tend to remember the costs and not the benefits. Like the Exs looking back on the 2X2s - at some point they left but in looking back they recall the cost most vividly.
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Post by snow on Aug 13, 2015 14:52:44 GMT -5
It would seem nothing has changed, not a thing. Exes are bitter and those who are professing are bitter that exes are bitter and on it goes I guess. Actually it wasn't towit that mentioned the bitter exes, it was towit's non professing friend. That's the same thing that happened with daybreak's friend: A co-worker in my office pointed me here...he had found the site [TheLyingTruth] after a comment I made during a brief discussion with him about my beliefs. He mentioned that as he read, he wondered what in the world I'd gotten myself into. But the more he read, and reflected on what he knew of me, the less he could take the writings seriously. There's an obvious mismatch between what is said about the Truth and what he knows from observing my life. Actually it was mrtindrucvionging that posted it. And it seems as though professing people are bitter and resentful about exes that are bitter and resentful. I do understand why to a degree, but there likely needs to be a little bit more understanding of why exes may be bitter and/or resentful rather than just feeling personally attacked and defensive because they are talking about the religion you are in. They are not saying you are that way personally, they are saying the religion does this sometimes to some people and it darn well hurts. In there case, compassion should be the first emotion I would think. I recognize it's not nice to hear people bad talking a system you love and support but it's not about you personally. It's about those who have done something to hurt them and as far as I'm aware, you haven't done anything to hurt anyone. It's a system that works for you and not others and that's pretty much it. Anyway, that's how I see it. I don't have anything against people in religion but I do have something against the religions that people believe in. There is a difference. I can have a personal relationship with one and despise the other because one is a system and one is a human being.
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Post by snow on Aug 13, 2015 15:04:31 GMT -5
I guess there maybe a few tire fetishists - oooh round tires and ours are the roundest - and there are people who focus on some other detail or because its the car that dad and granddad always drove. There exist fan clubs for Trabants and Vegas and Edsels and Yugos and the fans don't care about the crappy construction that doesn't even hold to whats in the specs and owners manuals and awful designs and that they need to be pushed a mile for every mile they run and all the detractors who point out its only layer after layer of added bailing wire holding them together are just bitter fault finders that have abandoned the one true auto thats the only one that goes back to the pattern Karl Benz gave on the shores of the Neckar and upheld by apostles Maybach and Daimler and Ford and the rest. I see where you are going. My point was (perhaps poorly made) that people stay with something until a cost-benefit analysis reveals that the benefit is no longer worth the cost. And at that point, once they abandon that item that cost so much that they no longer have it they tend to remember the costs and not the benefits. Like the Exs looking back on the 2X2s - at some point they left but in looking back they recall the cost most vividly. That is a very good point (of course) and you see it on here with those who stayed in longer and really tried to make it work when it clearly wasn't. By the time they left it had gotten so bad that you would hardly remember ever thinking it was good, which it probably was at one point. I think that's very human. For me, I quit pretty quick when it wasn't working for me. Unfortunately I wasn't allowed to just quit because I was a minor and was required to still dress and be and do all the things I had mentally 'quit'. And, for that I was pretty upset for quite awhile. But I got to leave home when I graduated and do my thing my way and slowly my resentment faded away. I imagine that it's still there at some level but I have distanced myself from it and have a lot of years inbetween then and now so that I can now look back and also recall the 'good things'. And there were good things. But when you're caught up in the throes of anger and resentment it's very hard to see anything good about where you just were.
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Post by matisse on Aug 13, 2015 15:22:16 GMT -5
Not everyone has had a wonderful experience in the F&W way. The bad outweighs the good sometimes. Generally people will stay in situations until the point when the cost exceeds the benefit. At that point, when looking back, the only parts seen are the costs. If you have invested in a car that has had nothing but problem after problem - new engine, expensive transmission repair, new brales, etc. - it is a rare person who looks back and comments on how wonderfully round the tires were. I think these are known as Fiat enthusiasts!
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Post by hberry on Aug 13, 2015 15:30:12 GMT -5
Generally people will stay in situations until the point when the cost exceeds the benefit. At that point, when looking back, the only parts seen are the costs. If you have invested in a car that has had nothing but problem after problem - new engine, expensive transmission repair, new brales, etc. - it is a rare person who looks back and comments on how wonderfully round the tires were. I think these are known as Fiat enthusiasts! Or Triumph enthusiasts. I had a TR7 that I totally adored and still do. That fact it was anything but reliable was inconsequential to my feelings about the car, then and now, but it was consequential enough that I did have to break down and buy a functional car. But oh! I loved that car! It was cool to look at, when running, a buzz to drive, and the seats were comfortable (at least for me). Sigh. But....yeah, I think I might be a bit unusual in remembering that car with love. Hubby, my newly acquired mechanic, hated that car and can say nothing good about it even after 335 years. However, he was always looking under the hood, so his perspective was a tad different than mine. The second time a cop had to push my non-running car to the side of the 55 freeway during morning rush hour traffic (same cop both times), he suggested I get another car. These cars made the "50 worst cars of all time" list in Time Life but ....well, the tires were very round!
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 13, 2015 15:50:51 GMT -5
Actually it wasn't towit that mentioned the bitter exes, it was towit's non professing friend. That's the same thing that happened with daybreak's friend: Actually it was mrtindrucvionging that posted it. The post I'm referring to is this one by towit; Edgar, A few weeks ago I sent one of my good friends, who doesn't profess, he is Baptist, to this site. I asked him to tell me what he thought. That was it. I didn't give him a preamble as to what to expect, etc. He called me a few days later and his exact words were "Wow, there sure are some bitter people out there." He mentioned you as one of the bitter ones. The "2x2 fellowship" that you write about wasn't the same 2x2 fellowship that he had experienced in coming with me to meetings and growing up around me and my family and several other of the friends. He attended special meetings and conventions with me over the years as well. For you to call members of the "2x2 fellowship" brainwashed or members of a cult- it is offensive to even our non-professing friends. They love and care for me, just as I love and care for them- whether they be Baptist or Hindu (I actually have a few Hindu friends- but that's a different subject.) I wish you all the best, Edgar. I realize that your experiences aren't mine- but your anger is getting the better of your judgement- and of course, that is just my opinion. Sincerely, towit And it seems as though professing people are bitter and resentful about exes that are bitter and resentful. I do understand why to a degree, but there likely needs to be a little bit more understanding of why exes may be bitter and/or resentful rather than just feeling personally attacked and defensive because they are talking about the religion you are in. I'm not bitter and resentful, nor do I feel personally attacked and defensive. I'm just wondering what makes an over-the-top activist exe "tick" - in an academic and objective way. For the most part I feel activist exes do themselves a disservice and harm when they go so far over the top. When they go so far over the top they should realize they are harming their own cause - that is what the observations by the non-professing people towit and daybreak quote indicates to me. I suppose harming their own credibility is an activist own exes's choice and business, but it is an interesting psychological and sociological phenomena to study. There is no shortage of it to study.
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Post by snow on Aug 13, 2015 15:58:43 GMT -5
Jesse, I am glad you told me that you are not feeling personally attacked or bitter about exes going on about the Truth group because I was concerned that you were. So now I understand better too.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 13, 2015 16:22:12 GMT -5
snow I mentioned "perception is reality" a few posts ago. We are prone to misperceptions - and misperception is reality too. If we make misperceptions our reality we can become quite detached from what is correct and accurate in the big picture point of view. Couple misperception with confirmation bias, mix it with the human disposition to inflate the negative and shrink the positive, and you can end up with a huge mis-match between the subsequent subjective reality and the actual "big picture" objectively observable reality. You can see this on page one of this thread.
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