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Post by thanks bert on Aug 21, 2007 11:10:07 GMT -5
quote - "One word for your coments/answers to real questins - OBFUSCATION" Thank you. I am clearly in Good Company: Those who came to John the Baptist, asking about the name of his church, and those who came to Jesus wanting specifics such as his background, seeing God or witnessing miracles, got loads of what they thought was "obfuscation." Please note: The Truth is about YOUR OWN PLACE in God's plan of salvation. Those who sought a name, background or signs got OBFUSCATION. Why? BECAUSE THEY THEMSELVES WERE OBFUSCATING THE REAL ISSUE.bert - thanks for reminding me why 8 weeks ago, for the first time in 33 years, I skipped a meeting, and another, and another, and don't plan on going back
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 21, 2007 17:51:29 GMT -5
No I consider you to be utterly evil and dangerous people, trying to take other peoples eyes out.
Now imagine the backlash if I were to generalise ex-2x2 folks like this! Actually mirror, I don't think you are evil or dangerous, but in my view, you and many other folks like you are misguided. Do you go to hell for being misguided? I don't believe so.
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Post by memory lapse on Aug 21, 2007 17:53:47 GMT -5
No I consider you to be utterly evil and dangerous people, trying to take other peoples eyes out.Now imagine the backlash if I were to generalise ex-2x2 folks like this! Actually mirror, I don't think you are evil or dangerous, but in my view, you and many other folks like you are misguided. Do you go to hell for being misguided? I don't believe so. GIT, your memory lapses are becoming more and more apparent. You already have generalized about former 2x2s many times. Why do you refuse to be accountable TO YOURSELF for your own words and actions? Why are you dishonest with yourself, GIT?
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 22, 2007 3:38:05 GMT -5
You already have generalized about former 2x2s many times.
A generalisation can be "generally true".
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Post by IllinoisGal on Aug 22, 2007 6:19:52 GMT -5
Since when could TRUTH be a stumbling block? ? The real word of God is truth and you are right, It wouldnt be a stumbling block. The bible tells us " You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free".
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2007 6:23:03 GMT -5
quote - "Bert, if you are such an honest person, why do you accept it is okay to "lie" like the workers are doing? How does God feel about liars?? HUH"
I hear all sorts of lies coming from priests and ministers, such as: the Truth has changed; God is in the world living for the World; all ways can lead to God; we do God's work in caring for this world and so forth.
Do you agree with these people? What sort of lies do you think our Workers are saying?
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Post by mirror on Aug 22, 2007 6:29:55 GMT -5
No I consider you to be utterly evil and dangerous people, trying to take other peoples eyes out.Now imagine the backlash if I were to generalise ex-2x2 folks like this! Actually mirror, I don't think you are evil or dangerous, but in my view, you and many other folks like you are misguided. Do you go to hell for being misguided? I don't believe so. The problem GIT is that you do not want to reply to my challenge and you try to turn the discussion away. Ex-2x2s are not an organised group, with regular meetings, workers, conventions. Some may be misguided, some may be evil - you cannot generalise. But the 2x2s themselves and above all the workers and the overseers, and especially some of them (like GIT, bert, Nathan - and my comment refered to them without necessarily generalising) who are not ready to take up the challenge I set (and you replied quite correctly «what are we? are we to get our own eyes out») are evil and devious. And your posts prove this more and more.
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Post by mirror on Aug 22, 2007 6:36:47 GMT -5
Do you agree with these people? What sort of lies do you think our Workers are saying? [/b][/quote] First of all, I thought that workers were not using the same arguments as all those «false» religions. They preach their being different. But as I already mentioned above (or maybe in another thread) they prove themselves quite similar to the priests and pastors of other denominations. As for the lies they say I already mentioned some - lies by commission and lies by omission. Here are some: - We do not have an official organisation. - We do not have bank accounts. - Our way comes directly from the apostles. - We are guided by the Spirit. - The church is full of love and compassion. - We are not like those other religions full of sexual scandals. - We do not have permanent places of cult. etc. etc. etc.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2007 6:37:43 GMT -5
quote - "GIT, bert, Nathan ... who are not ready to take up the challenge I set" What challenge is this? Is there any single question all of us haven't answered, verbatim?
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Post by mirror on Aug 22, 2007 6:42:57 GMT -5
bert here you are dudeThere are sins by commission and sins by omission - half the truth is a lie. I would challenge GIT, bert and the rest of the preachers of The Truth to mention at the beginning of each of their gospel meetings the following: «A lot of information about the way we are following can be found on the internet. Just Google two by two and read the sites and the threads».
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2007 6:43:54 GMT -5
These questions are a big yawn. We are doing a large question and answer website to attend to these...
- We do not have an official organisation. Depends what you mean by official. Certainly it has no parliament or constitution like many churches.
- We do not have bank accounts. Who says that? Where do workers keep their money? Under someone else's mattress?
- Our way comes directly from the apostles. Directly means you read what the apostles wrote, and you obey it.
- We are guided by the Spirit. Yes, we are. To the churches what we believe, and how we live it, is simply "impossible." I have had people tell me that from the 1950's. Two told me they flatly disbelieved we have the ministry we have.
- The church is full of love and compassion. I accept that. But that is different to saying the church is ALL love and compassion. Our church is not much different to the one described in the NT.
- We are not like those other religions full of sexual scandals. Never heard that one. I know of a few scandals! But that is not what interests me.
- We do not have permanent places of cult. What does that mean?
etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2007 6:55:00 GMT -5
quote - "A lot of information about the way we are following can be found on the internet. Just Google two by two and read the sites and the threads.
Oh, thanks. There are two ways of looking at this comment:
1) It is relevant. We have two website detailing the nature of the First Church, with the third coming at Christmas. Another will be done in 2009. They have been helpful to me in understanding more fully what God requires of a church.
2) It is irrelevant. What we all need is to seek Christ. This is supreme requirement. Who wrote this (paraphrasing,) "we see Jesus made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor." Looking to Jesus, not to arguments.
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Post by mirror on Aug 22, 2007 7:02:57 GMT -5
These questions are a big yawn. We are doing a large question and answer website to attend to these... I see the seriousness with which you are going to reply.
- We do not have an official organisation. Depends what you mean by official. Certainly it has no parliament or constitution like many churches. I depends what YOU mean when you preach this. You mean that there is no registered trust, denomination, company, incorporated entity. And this is what people understand. Now you can play with words to try and ofuscate and turn the discussion away BUT THIS IS THE FIRST AND BIGGEST LIE you preach at gospel meetings.
- We do not have bank accounts. Who says that? Where do workers keep their money? Under someone else's mattress? Every (I MEAN EVERYONE) worker I heard during the more than 20 years I was with this cult mentioned in one in every two gospel meetings that the workers had no income, kept no bank accounts - they lived by the faith alone. Another lie.
- Our way comes directly from the apostles. Directly means you read what the apostles wrote, and you obey it. That is not what the numerous workers said in the hundreds of meetings I have been. They explicitly mentioned that this church came directly from the time of the apostles without interruption. You now have changed this for the purposes of your reply, but THIS IS NOT WHAT IS PREACHED in gospel meetinsg all around the world.
- We are guided by the Spirit. Yes, we are. To the churches what we believe, and how we live it, is simply "impossible." I have had people tell me that from the 1950's. Two told me they flatly disbelieved we had the ministry we had. So how come you do not manifest the fruits of the spirit? How come you become aware of sexual and other scandals too late? How come you treat the perpetrators of these scandals by sending them in another far away field WITHOUT informing the locals about the lilainous acts committed. And above all why do you so often need to aply excommunications and other punishmenst, not to the guilty but to the people who ask questions about your behaviour?
- The church is full of love and compassion. I accept that. But that is different to saying the church is ALL love and compassion. Our church is not much different to the one described in the NT.[/color] No, it VERY DIFFERENT. Few days ago GIT was putting ORDER above love and compassion (not for the scandal bering workers but for the brethren who dare question the authority).
- We are not like those other religions full of sexual scandals. Never heard that one. I know of a full scandals! Of course, you heard because you read fora like this. Surely never heard in the context of the meetings. In the long time I was at the meetings I heard this again and again - we are the pure way of God, thinsg that happen in other churches never happen in ours, and so on and so forth.
- We do not have permanent places of cult. What does that mean? Convention grounds, permanent houses for meetings who go from father to son or who are sold to willing couples so that the meetings can continue. Nathan even mentioned that several constructions at convention grounds are ensured with funding from the secret trust funds managed from workers.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH ...
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Post by mirror on Aug 22, 2007 7:06:55 GMT -5
Compare your irrelevant replyquote - "A lot of information about the way we are following can be found on the internet. Just Google two by two and read the sites and the threads. Oh, thanks. There are two ways of looking at this comment: 1) It is relevant. We have two website detailing the nature of the First Church, with the third coming at Christmas. Another will be done in 2009. They have been helpful to me in understanding more fully what God requires of a church. 2) It is irrelevant. What we all need is to seek Christ. This is supreme requirement. Who wrote this (paraphrasing,) "we see Jesus made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor." Looking to Jesus, not to arguments. with this VERY RELEVANT oneSo, honestly, start your meeting with your official name and your bank accounts. This would be honest enough for me.A question: are you saying that any church that does not begin its Mass \ Service \ Worship by announcing its "official name" and handing out copies of its budget is not an honest church? The church that I go to does. The pastor starts out by welcoming everyone to "Grace Community Church" and the budget (monthly and weekly) is in the bulletin. I have approached the pastor with many questions and have received honest answers in return. I have never experienced that with the workers.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2007 7:26:03 GMT -5
Mirror. Be incredibly shocked, sit down and re-read the Acts, the letters and about the Seven Churches in Revelations. All kinds of people, at all stages of personal development, were found in those churches.
There were issues of money! There was strife between brethren! There was strife between preachers! Preachers kicked people out. People kicked preachers out. Paul mentioned a sexual scandal, or two. Paul didn't want to dwell upon their failings, he wanted to know Christ and him only crucified. These people LEARNED about Christ, and they GREW in the WAY. Now, isn't that nice?
Would you have joined this church?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2007 7:31:12 GMT -5
Whether or not it would be appropriate at the beginning of a GM to announce all the web sites related to the church is questionable, although not a terrible idea.
The workers are actually doing the church a disservice by not facing the information and disinformation that is out there. The traditional procedure for shepherding is to try to create a vacuum of information, advising people to stay away from web sites or people who have concerns about the church system and thereby "protect" their faith. What is actually happening though is that when friends stumble across all the information, they are often amazed at how some of it makes sense and lines up with concerns they have privately held all their lives. The vaccuum gets filled and they leave the church.
If the workers were seriously interested in serving the church, they would encourage people to read whatever is available regarding the church and then invite people to discuss it either privately or in a group setting.
With the current procedure the church is bleeding members and will continue to do so until all the truth is squarely faced. People need and deserve the truth no matter how ugly it can look sometime. Our church practices little makeup and lipstick, but is generous in applying it to the truth.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2007 7:36:55 GMT -5
quote - "The church that I go to does. The pastor starts out by welcoming everyone to "Grace Community Church" and the budget (monthly and weekly) is in the bulletin. I have approached the pastor with many questions and have received honest answers in return. I have never experienced that with the workers."
I went to a Sunday morning church, someone took the effort to host it in their home. Each person stood up and took the effort to give their own personal testimony. Each testimonial referred to the desire to have Christ in their life.
Yes! We heard NOTHING about a monthly budget! Nor did we hear about global warming, the war in Iraq, the coming elections, the Beijing Olympics, contraception, church barbecues, new movies, football teams, who's died, Hollywood gossip, Christmas events, world poverty, fund raising etc etc etc boring, irrelevant, nonsensical etc.
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Post by sounds like on Aug 22, 2007 7:43:03 GMT -5
Mirror. Be incredibly shocked, sit down and re-read the Acts, the letters and about the Seven Churches in Revelations. All kinds of people, at all stages of personal development, were found in those churches. There were issues of money! There was strife between brethren! There was strife between preachers! Preachers kicked people out. People kicked preachers out. Paul mentioned a sexual scandal, or two. Paul didn't want to dwell upon their failings, he wanted to know Christ and him only crucified. These people LEARNED about Christ, and they GREW in the WAY. Now, isn't that nice? Would you have joined this church? Bert. You just described 2x2ism in Alberta.
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chris
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Post by chris on Aug 22, 2007 7:52:35 GMT -5
2001 Eastern USA
Workers denied "truth" was started at the turn of the century(1899-1900) by a group of people.
Denied UNTIL they were presented a copy of George Walkers letter to an agency of the United States of America stating that their "organization" was started at the turn of the century by a group of people.
This happened in MY LIVINGROOM with witnesses present.
What's your take?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2007 8:02:03 GMT -5
quote - "2001 Eastern USA. Workers denied "truth" was started at the turn of the century(1899-1900) by a group of people. I thought Jesus was witness to Truth? How could he witness something born in 1899?
quote - "Denied UNTIL they were presented a copy of George Walkers letter to an agency of the United States of America stating that their "organization" was started at the turn of the century by a group of people." Any church, which can represent Truth, can be started at any time by any person (it started at least 13 times in the Old Testament.) If there was none around, I could start one myself. But I wouldn't allow anyone to focus upon me, or call my belief "Bertism."
quote - This happened in MY LIVINGROOM with witnesses present. You are confusing two Truths here. The tens of thousands who stood in little Gospel meetings, and who knew about Irvine, were not interested in Irvine. I don't read Irvine in my bible, but you seem to see him everywhere in your own.
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Post by typical 2x2 excuses on Aug 22, 2007 8:50:58 GMT -5
quote - "Bert, if you are such an honest person, why do you accept it is okay to "lie" like the workers are doing? How does God feel about liars?? HUH"
I hear all sorts of lies coming from priests and ministers, such as: the Truth has changed; God is in the world living for the World; all ways can lead to God; we do God's work in caring for this world and so forth.
Do you agree with these people? What sort of lies do you think our Workers are saying? Ah yes, the old "they did it first so it's okay for us to do it too" defense. How typical.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2007 8:53:42 GMT -5
No, I have given examples of lies. Just return a few you think the Workers are engaging in.
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Post by Of All Truths on Aug 22, 2007 8:55:51 GMT -5
Who do the 2x2s believe Christ is? Is not the Christ the Eternal Word and such the Incarnation of GOD in the Flesh, The Second Person of the "Trinity", (Godhead). The 2x2's do not teach this.
The 1st letter of JOHN teaches about the Incarnation. It teaches also of those that do not teach this and try and turn it into a lie. The 2x2's teach a mix of heritical beliefs based on Gnotics and Arianism. John who also authored the Gospel is in agreement of Who Jesus is.
John also wrote to those that did not have love for their fellow Christians. John writes, that because they had not the love for their brothers they had not the love of God in them. How can one have the Love of God in them when they do not even want to know their brother who they can see?
In the Johns letter He writes:
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
The F&W deny love for others outside their own nest. Jesus commanded: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
How can you keep the commandments of God when you deny Jesus instructions in LOVE. How can you make claim of right when you are wrong?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2007 9:04:02 GMT -5
quote - "Who do the 2x2s believe Christ is? Is not the Christ the Eternal Word and such the Incarnation of GOD in the Flesh, The Second Person of the "Trinity", (Godhead). The 2x2's do not teach this. Jesus is all kinds of things, ie the lion, the lamb, the savior, our elder brother, the word, the life, the bread of life, the king of the Jews, the Messiah, Emmanuel, Shiloh etc etc. But most of all Jesus is to be followed and obeyed, that we may receive grace and redemption. The outside churches do not preach this.
quote - ... The 2x2's teach a mix of heritical beliefs based on Gnotics and Arianism. John who also authored the Gospel is in agreement of Who Jesus is. I have no problem with agreeing with John's view of the Christ.
quote - "John also wrote to those that did not have love for their fellow Christians. John writes, that because they had not the love for their brothers they had not the love of God in them. How can one have the Love of God in them when they do not even want to know their brother who they can see?" What is your point?
quote - "The F&W deny love for others outside their own nest. Jesus commanded: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." I have many friends, family and relatives outside of my church. Most of them I can say honestly I do love. But, loving someone doesn't mean you accept their point of view, or way of living.
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Post by to bert on Aug 22, 2007 9:17:01 GMT -5
Depends what you mean by official. More word games. No. It has a dictatorial seat. "Worldly" churches are run like a democracy. The "Truth" honey wagon is run like a dictatorship, a dictatorship run by man. Many workers in the USA, in private conversations and in Gospel meetings. In their wallets, at their parents house, in bank accounts, and in various investment mechanisms (stocks, bonds, real estate investments, etc.), that is, what money they haven't turned over to their supervisor. LOL. Where did the apostles write that my wife can't take part anymore because she decided to cut her hair. (This happened, in Minnesota, in the 80's.) No more than many other churches out there. This is a worker-perpetuated myth. It is an old worker-perpetuated myth. So they were ignorant. Who cares. Besides, in stricter cults, much more "unbelievable" and "impossible" things have occurred. The kind of love and compassion that Ira Hobbs had for Jean Trotter Austin? How sick. Give me a break. Your church is no better than many of the other churches out there when it comes to love and compassion. It is worse in many ways, due simply to its lack of charitable work. As outward appearances go, I suppose your church is closer than many, but this is one of the problems with your church; always justifying itself through physical appearance rather than what is beneath the surface. You won't. It's a lie by omission. Apparently, you are not alone. It seems very few in your church care to deal with the pedophiles in your ministry.
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Post by unbelievable on Aug 22, 2007 9:22:07 GMT -5
Mirror. Be incredibly shocked, sit down and re-read the Acts, the letters and about the Seven Churches in Revelations. All kinds of people, at all stages of personal development, were found in those churches. There were issues of money! There was strife between brethren! There was strife between preachers! Preachers kicked people out. People kicked preachers out. Paul mentioned a sexual scandal, or two. Paul didn't want to dwell upon their failings, he wanted to know Christ and him only crucified. These people LEARNED about Christ, and they GREW in the WAY. Now, isn't that nice? Bert, you are a two faced jackass. This list is the same kind of thing you condemn "worldy" churches for.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2007 9:31:26 GMT -5
quote - Depends what you mean by official. More word games. What does the word "official" mean in this context?
Quote - It has a dictatorial seat. "Worldly" churches are run like a democracy. The "Truth" honey wagon is run like a dictatorship, a dictatorship run by man. Would you have called Paul a dictator of the churches he established? How about John the Baptist with his disciples? What do you think of James and his authority over the Jewish church? Do you recall Jesus having a vote on doctrine?
Quote: "We do not have bank accounts." Who says that? Many workers in the USA, in private conversations and in Gospel meetings. I haven't heard such remarks. I wouldn't give money to workers if they kept it in their pockets.
Quote: Under someone else's mattress? LOL. ;D Workers don't own mattresses?
Quote: Directly means you read what the apostles wrote, and you obey it. Where did the apostles write that my wife can't take part anymore because she decided to cut her hair. (This happened, in Minnesota, in the 80's.) I can't comment on specific issues. I know of two women with short hair in meetings.
Quote: To the churches what we believe, and how we live it, is simply "impossible." This is a worker-perpetuated myth. Two asked me about the Workers. One man replied, "that's impossible!" and on another occasion a lady said, "Sounds like a con to me." So I believe it when an Indian worker said a preacher said it was "impossible" to go out like Jesus et al did. He replied, "Well, I am doing it!"
Quote: Two told me they flatly disbelieved we have the ministry we have. So they were ignorant. Who cares. Besides, in stricter cults, much more "unbelievable" and "impossible" things have occurred. Yes, you hear of impossible things supposedly happening in some groups. But "impossible" things like living as Jesus did, just don't make the grade because they are not only "impossible" but also declared to be "unnecessary."
Quote: I accept that. But that is different to saying the church is ALL love and compassion. The kind of love and compassion that Ira Hobbs had for Jean Trotter Austin? How sick. That's more specifics I cant comment on. And if, upon examination of both side of the story, I agree with the point - the exception doesn't prove the rule.
quote - Give me a break. Your church is no better than many of the other churches out there when it comes to love and compassion. It is worse in many ways, due simply to its lack of charitable work. How do you know we don't give to charity?
Quote: Our church is not much different to the one described in the NT. As outward appearances go, I suppose your church is closer than many, but this is one of the problems with your church; always justifying itself through physical appearance rather than what is beneath the surface. If that were the case then we would be running around showing what great things we are doing.
Quote: Never heard that one. You won't. It's a lie by omission. Huge numbers of lies by omission occur here daily. I believe you are engaging in such yourself by finding rare examples to prove points.
Quote: I know of a few scandals! But that is not what interests me. Apparently, you are not alone. It seems very few in your church care to deal with the pedophiles in your ministry. Can't address hearsay.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2007 9:37:17 GMT -5
quote from Bert - Mirror. Be incredibly shocked, sit down and re-read the Acts, the letters and about the Seven Churches in Revelations. All kinds of people, at all stages of personal development, were found in those churches. There were issues of money! There was strife between brethren! There was strife between preachers! Preachers kicked people out. People kicked preachers out. Paul mentioned a sexual scandal, or two.
quote from you - Bert, you are a two faced jackass. This list is the same kind of thing you condemn "worldy" churches for. A particular Anglican priest was shown on YouTube foul-mouthing kids skateboarding near his church in Melbourne. He resigned two days ago. I would not for one minute consider Anglicans, or their priests, to be foul-mouthed. I judge a church by its doctrine, not by those who don't or can't live up to the standards of that church. ps what does your current church think of you calling people names?
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