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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 21, 2007 3:41:29 GMT -5
By the way 'gloryintruth' our master himself often compared spiritual things with natural things (in parables) to make it easier to understand ... Do you disregard this kind of teaching as 'apples and peaches'?
I have no idea of your personal experiences leaving the Fellowship. From what you have said, it was traumatic for you and your family. I will accept you at your word. Clearly it was a difficult time for you.
What I personally disagree with is the word "rape". If I said to someone, "You've mentally raped me", what I am saying is that they are a perpetrator of a terrible abuse; I'm saying they're a "rapist" (albeit, one of the mind), but it is an uncalled for association.
Don't get me wrong. Metaphors and similes and figurative language have their place in communication. We all use them - I know I do a lot. But metaphors need to be equal to the task.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2007 4:25:11 GMT -5
It seems to me that the main purpose of your expressed horror at the use of the term 'spiritual rape' is to down-class the seriousness of the offence that my wife and family feel they were victims of.
I agree that rape is an extremely serious crime .. not always because of the physical bodily injury, but primarily because of the extreme violation of personal integrity with all the enormous phycological scars that this leaves -- done in complete and ruthless non-concern for the interests of victim. Self interest and sickly fullfillment is the only concern of the perpetrator
We feel that it is a very apt comparison to the violation that my family experienced.
Edgar
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 21, 2007 6:00:32 GMT -5
Edgar,
In relation to the taped conversations hosted on your website: were one of these conversations involving yourself? Just curious.
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 21, 2007 6:10:00 GMT -5
It seems to me that the main purpose of your expressed horror at the use of the term 'spiritual rape' is to down-class the seriousness of the offence that my wife and family feel they were victims of.
No. It is because I do not think that using a word that is intended to express the horror of a woman being forced to submit to sexual penetration is appropriate to your circumstances. Just as I reject people talking about the Holocaust in relation to abortion.
I agree that rape is an extremely serious crime .. not always because of the physical bodily injury, but primarily because of the extreme violation of personal integrity with all the enormous phycological scars that this leaves -- done in complete and ruthless non-concern for the interests of victim. Self interest and sickly fullfillment is the only concern of the perpetrator
I think we can safely agree that everyone on this forum would repudiate rape in the strongest possible terms. We do not need to mull over this issue.
We feel that it is a very apt comparison to the violation that my family experienced.
I might help us to understand your use of the word if you outline some of the violations which you think your family experienced.
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Post by Hmmmmmm on Aug 21, 2007 7:06:58 GMT -5
Edger,
I have been around families that have a parent that has a bad attitude and I know the effect it has on the children. If I was you, I would get rid of the attitude and start providing an environment of looking ahead in life and not living in the past.
Rape is one thing, mental abuse is another. Deceptive as it is, anger not only eats the one that contains it, but destroys the ability of those around it to function correctly.
You are in no way changing anything in the fellowship because everyone outside of your family sees you for what you are. What you are doing though is poisoning the minds and hearts of your family. I have read your post for the last couple of years, and read your website... and talked to some that know more about you than I do. This is everyone's "opinion" that I have talked with.
You talk of those in the fellowship being blind and not wanting to open their eyes to see the light. Well, we feel we see the light, and you have the blinders on... maybe you need to look more within and correct the wrong there instead of dwelling on those who are never going to think twice about words coming from your twisted anger.
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Post by translation on Aug 21, 2007 7:38:31 GMT -5
Edger, I have been around families that have a parent that has a bad attitude and I know the effect it has on the children. If I was you, I would get rid of the attitude and start providing an environment of looking ahead in life and not living in the past. Rape is one thing, mental abuse is another. Deceptive as it is, anger not only eats the one that contains it, but destroys the ability of those around it to function correctly. You are in no way changing anything in the fellowship because everyone outside of your family sees you for what you are. What you are doing though is poisoning the minds and hearts of your family. I have read your post for the last couple of years, and read your website... and talked to some that know more about you than I do. This is everyone's "opinion" that I have talked with. You talk of those in the fellowship being blind and not wanting to open their eyes to see the light. Well, we feel we see the light, and you have the blinders on... maybe you need to look more within and correct the wrong there instead of dwelling on those who are never going to think twice about words coming from your twisted anger. In other words, Edgar, they want you to shut up, because they can't stand it when truth is spoken.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2007 8:15:10 GMT -5
Edgar, In relation to the taped conversations hosted on your website: were one of these conversations involving yourself? Just curious. No I had nothing to do with any of these conversations --- I was still blissfully involved in group activities at the time. It was a few years later as a spin off of this mass excommunication that I became involved. My cousin in the work visited one of these families and got kicked out of the work and fellowship as a punishment. That is when I started investigating what really had happened, as the version workers gave was quite different from the truth. It was another 'exed' family (neither of the ones on the tapes) that sent me the tapes. Edger, I have been around families that have a parent that has a bad attitude and I know the effect it has on the children. If I was you, I would get rid of the attitude and start providing an environment of looking ahead in life and not living in the past. Rape is one thing, mental abuse is another. Deceptive as it is, anger not only eats the one that contains it, but destroys the ability of those around it to function correctly. You are in no way changing anything in the fellowship because everyone outside of your family sees you for what you are. What you are doing though is poisoning the minds and hearts of your family. I have read your post for the last couple of years, and read your website... and talked to some that know more about you than I do. This is everyone's "opinion" that I have talked with. You talk of those in the fellowship being blind and not wanting to open their eyes to see the light. Well, we feel we see the light, and you have the blinders on... maybe you need to look more within and correct the wrong there instead of dwelling on those who are never going to think twice about words coming from your twisted anger. Have a nice day 'hmmmmm' -- love you too! Edgar
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Post by nice spirit on Aug 21, 2007 8:59:37 GMT -5
Edgar,
If what you experienced was "spiritual rape", what would you call the act of making illegally-recorded telephone conversations available on your website?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2007 9:18:12 GMT -5
Edgar, If what you experienced was "spiritual rape", what would you call the act of making illegally-recorded telephone conversations available on your website? I think that even the workers established the fact that the tapes were authentic and under Alberta law it is not only legal to record your own conversations it is inn many cases recommendable (which was the case with these tapes). However you are welcome to file suit if you wish. Swedish law has similar content on this issue to Canadian law so I am not worried. I regard the publishing of this information as a small part of the process of enlightenment for a large number of well meaning but quite deceived people. (Until the tapes were made public much of the content was denied by many workers -- now they begrudgingly accept its authenticy.) I presume that the website you refer to is www.anotherstep.net. Edgar
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Post by nice spirit on Aug 21, 2007 10:06:11 GMT -5
Edgar, If what you experienced was "spiritual rape", what would you call the act of making illegally-recorded telephone conversations available on your website? I think that even the workers established the fact that the tapes were authentic and under Alberta law it is not only legal to record your own conversations it is inn many cases recommendable (which was the case with these tapes). However you are welcome to file suit if you wish. Swedish law has similar content on this issue to Canadian law so I am not worried. I regard the publishing of this information as a small part of the process of enlightenment for a large number of well meaning but quite deceived people. (Until the tapes were made public much of the content was denied by many workers -- now they begrudgingly accept its authenticy.) I presume that the website you refer to is www.anotherstep.net. Edgar Edgar, Isn't it only legal to record phone calls in Canada if the party is aware that the conversation is being recorded (and I mean at the BEGINNING of the conversation, and not at the end)? I'm not doubting the authenticity of the calls and who said anything about suing? Don't be ridiculous. In listening to the recordings, I don't hear anything deceitful that the workers did. They seemed pretty upfront about the whole thing. What was the homsexuality issue that was raised in the final phone call? I see no other reference to that.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2007 10:20:59 GMT -5
I think that even the workers established the fact that the tapes were authentic and under Alberta law it is not only legal to record your own conversations it is inn many cases recommendable (which was the case with these tapes). However you are welcome to file suit if you wish. Swedish law has similar content on this issue to Canadian law so I am not worried. I regard the publishing of this information as a small part of the process of enlightenment for a large number of well meaning but quite deceived people. (Until the tapes were made public much of the content was denied by many workers -- now they begrudgingly accept its authenticy.) I presume that the website you refer to is www.anotherstep.net. Edgar Edgar, Isn't it only legal to record phone calls in Canada if the party is aware that the conversation is being recorded (and I mean at the BEGINNING of the conversation, and not at the end)? I'm not doubting the authenticity of the calls and who said anything about suing? Don't be ridiculous. In listening to the recordings, I don't hear anything deceitful that the workers did. They seemed pretty upfront about the whole thing. What was the homsexuality issue that was raised in the final phone call? I see no other reference to that. Don't be silly -- all 911 calls, police, fire department and most social service calls are recorded. There is never a question. We often see the recommendation to always record calls from calling centers on sales missions -- or any other situation where the honesty of the caller can be in question. Regarding the content of the recorded phone calls -- there were serious sexual concerns in the hearts of both of the families excommunicated on the tapes.
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Post by nice spirit on Aug 21, 2007 10:40:00 GMT -5
Don't be silly -- all 911 calls, police, fire department and most social service calls are recorded. There is never a question. We often see the recommendation to always record calls from calling centers on sales missions -- or any other situation where the honesty of the caller can be in question. Regarding the content of the recorded phone calls -- there were serious sexual concerns in the hearts of both of the families excommunicated on the tapes. Well obviously 911 calls (etc.) are a little different than a typical conversation between two individuals. I'm asking you if the Canadian law allows the recording of "typical conversation" between someone who does not know they are being recorded? I just saw this on a Canadian website: "Canadian federal law requires one-party consent for telephone call recording." What were the sexual concerns? I do not see those spelled out anywhere on your website.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2007 11:45:37 GMT -5
Don't be silly -- all 911 calls, police, fire department and most social service calls are recorded. There is never a question. We often see the recommendation to always record calls from calling centers on sales missions -- or any other situation where the honesty of the caller can be in question. Regarding the content of the recorded phone calls -- there were serious sexual concerns in the hearts of both of the families excommunicated on the tapes. Well obviously 911 calls (etc.) are a little different than a typical conversation between two individuals. I'm asking you if the Canadian law allows the recording of "typical conversation" between someone who does not know they are being recorded? I just saw this on a Canadian website: "Canadian federal law requires one-party consent for telephone call recording." What were the sexual concerns? I do not see those spelled out anywhere on your website. Exactly - "one-party consent" is when one of the parties is in agreement to the recording, which in this case was the folks in the process of being excommunicated. If neither party is aware or agrees to it, it is called tapping which requires legal approval. In Sweden, legal approval of 'tapping' requires reasonable suspicion of a crime that can lead to at least a 2 year jail sentence. (which in Sweden is a quite serious crime) The sexual concerns were not related in the two different cases recorded on tape. (but they were serious and were ignored by the responsible workers) --That can of worms has been hashed over a number of times before on the list. I am not up to it at the moment.
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Post by nice spirit on Aug 21, 2007 12:43:11 GMT -5
Exactly - "one-party consent" is when one of the parties is in agreement to the recording, which in this case was the folks in the process of being excommunicated. Interesting. Still, it seems pretty deceitful to do such a thing... and even worse to post it on a website. I wonder how you would feel if the tables were turned and someone unknowingly recorded a private conversation of yours and someone else posted it on a website. Seems like you are using the internet to "rape" the workers reasonable expectation of privacy.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Aug 21, 2007 12:44:11 GMT -5
nice spirit...heh.
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Post by funny on Aug 21, 2007 12:52:17 GMT -5
Funny how some 2x2ists are more concerned that the workers got caught being @55h0l3s then they are that the workers are @ssh0l3s.
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Post by mirror on Aug 21, 2007 12:59:15 GMT -5
Exactly - "one-party consent" is when one of the parties is in agreement to the recording, which in this case was the folks in the process of being excommunicated. Interesting. Still, it seems pretty deceitful to do such a thing... and even worse to post it on a website. I wonder how you would feel if the tables were turned and someone unknowingly recorded a private conversation of yours and someone else posted it on a website. Seems like you are using the internet to "rape" the workers reasonable expectation of privacy. GIT asked for some facts, or was it Nathan, maybe bert. When one gives facts it is deceitful. When one just mentions them he is asked for proof. And when one replies by asking proof of honesty from the workers they reply «Jesus is the way». The problem guys is not with Jesus but what YOU DO IN HIS NAME. And YOU are not having any relation with what is written about him.
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Post by nice spirit on Aug 21, 2007 13:08:09 GMT -5
Funny how some 2x2ists are more concerned that the workers got caught being @55h0l3s then they are that the workers are @ssh0l3s. Lots of assumptions in your statement. I'm not a 2x2 although I do have many friends who are and I admit that I do not like to see them unfairly portrayed. I listened to all those taped conversations and I did not think the workers were being @55hol3s (your words). I thought they were honest and upfront and that the people on the other line in the first taped conversation were being very deceitful and trying to change what had been previously agreed to. I thought the worker did a good job of maintaining composure despite the antagonism.
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 21, 2007 17:38:12 GMT -5
I listened to all those taped conversations and I did not think the workers were being @55hol3s (your words). I thought they were honest and upfront and that the people on the other line in the first taped conversation were being very deceitful and trying to change what had been previously agreed to. I thought the worker did a good job of maintaining composure despite the antagonism.
I also came to the same conclusion. In fact, I would go as far as to recommend that the Friends listen to these conversations, because in my view, the Workers involved in the conversations came out shining in terms of patience, calmness and politeness. There was significant antagonism from the other participants in the conversation - particularly in the second conversation where the other participant was downright rude and belligerent.
It's also a great thing that the Workers were unaware that the conversations were being taped. It means the sincerity of their words and attitude are not in question (because recording devices do not only record things, they also change the behaviour of those things in the process - that's why the existence of security cameras are advertised at service stations).
On the other hand, how are we to regard the other participants? In the first conversation the woman kept on saying how important it was to their "eternal salvation" and "we need more time to pray" and so on, yet they're recording the conversation and promised to "spread it around" at the very end. The other guy even had the telephone conversation set on speaker, so a "whole roomful of folks" could hear it. And then, the Workers were informed right at the end! To me that can be summed up in one word: deceitful.
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Post by what 2x2ists hear on Aug 21, 2007 17:49:43 GMT -5
2x2ists will hear what they want, and they will defend jerk-workers no matter how jerky they are. This thread is proof.
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Post by ha ha ha on Aug 21, 2007 17:51:46 GMT -5
The workers were harassing those folks. Those folks stood up and made the tapes, thus enlightening a lot of people as to the harassment they were enduring at the hands of these so-called "workers."
2x2ists apparently approve of harassment.
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 21, 2007 19:17:16 GMT -5
2x2ists will hear what they want, and they will defend jerk-workers no matter how jerky they are. This thread is proof.
Friend, we all hear only what we want to hear, or are willing for. This entire message board is proof that no matter how eloquently argued, or how well a certain point is put across, if we don't want to listen, we won't.
I have come to realise what I am doing on this message-board. It's not to convert exes. It's not to discuss doctrine. It's not to form friendship links with exes. It's simply to put the other perspective forward.
Remember, there are two sides (sometimes more) to every story. Everyone has their own version of reality. And if the TMB is going to become closer to the "truth", to "reality" and if it is going to move in a direction toward being more "fair", it has to include the other voices in this sectarian discussion, few though they be.
Because, let's all get this clear. Most "2x2s" are not going to leave the Fellowship, and most don't even really care to investigate the issues about which exes feel so passionately (I have read the websites; messageboards - as has my entire family - and my father's response sums up what my ENTIRE church felt when we discussed these issues one Wednesday night (including the Alberta issue), "You know what? I don't care whether this Church was started 2,000 years ago, or 20 years ago. I've been in the Quackers, the Anglicans, the Roman Catholics, the Baptists, I went to a Church of England school. My dad was into mysticism, spiritualism, and Eastern religion. And I've never found life or truth until I came to the Fellowship. I don't know about all the other stuff, but what I do know is that whereas once I was blind; now I see."
A lot of exes can't accept this - that professing people can be genuinely happy, and genuinely alive, and genuine Christians within the Fellowship. Because an exe's experience has been different (often due to their own fault, in my personal view), they despise, hate and take issue with anyone who finds joy in the Church in which they found grief. I find this approach very immature: to measure what "everyone" should be doing by one's own experience.
The Fellowship is going to be around for decades to come. Yet, if this one-sided debate, and rather one-sided discussion is still raging in 10 years time, where exes unite to pick every fault and flaw in the Fellowship and its people, and where exes discuss everything from convention urinals to elderly ladies' undergarments, then I think that is actually tragic. Tragic.
It is, I believe, a form of unforgiveness. That's why we find so many twisted spirits, so many deformed characters, so many poisoned dwarfs on the TMB. Some operate websites documenting their experiences from over half-a-decade ago, others are still rehashing old wounds decades after leaving, and some still periodically attend "2x2" gatherings in order to stay plugged into the emotion. The TMB boils down to more-or-less one thing: how to maintain the rage.
Then we have our resident pop-psychologists, who have no formal training psychology (as I have - basic psychological training, with a major emphasis on educational psychology, is required for teachers these days), spouting on glib cliches about how "healing" and "healthy" it is to "let it all out". It reminds me of the old primal scream therapies of the 1960's. Total nonsense.
Recently I taught a unit why Nazism was so effective in removing human rights and dominating the culture. I explained the concept of Nazi rallies, and how large groups of people were united in support of one ideal, and also united in hatred. "Our hatred makes us strong". I see the same principle at work here. But I don't think it is healthy for anyone to bitterly attack "2x2s" on the forum, to go over-and-over the evils of the Workers and the Friends.
The result of all this unforgiveness? A conga line of spiritual terrorists, shaking their stick at the world as they conduct themselves dishonourably in the name of God.
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Post by ithascome on Aug 21, 2007 22:03:51 GMT -5
I accept it. My parents were happy within the fellowship and I believe they are saved and have gone on to the greater place. What I can't understand is why many within the2x2 fellowship can not accept that many so called outsiders are genuinely happy, genuinely alive, and are genuine Christians.
I have come to realize what I am doing on this message-board.. is not to convince 2x2s to leave. I just want to convince them that we are fellow Christians.... and yes we can love each other if we will just stop judging each other all the time. It is ok to disagree ,,, but when we start calling each other Devils (also other names) this is just not Christian in any shape of form.
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Post by wa1nate on Aug 21, 2007 22:14:00 GMT -5
I accept it. My parents were happy within the fellowship and I believe they are saved and have gone on to the greater place. What I can't understand is why many within the2x2 fellowship can not accept that many so called outsiders are genuinely happy, genuinely alive, and are genuine Christians. I have come to realize what I am doing on this message-board.. is not to convince 2x2s to leave. I just want to convince them that we are fellow Christians.... and yes we can love each other if we will just stop judging each other all the time. It is ok to disagree ,,, but whet we start calling each other Devils (also other names) this is just not Christian in any shape of form. Very nicely put. Kevin
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therose
Junior Member
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"
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Post by therose on Aug 21, 2007 22:27:48 GMT -5
Thank you bro - amen to that!
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Post by no name on Aug 21, 2007 22:41:33 GMT -5
Edger, I have been around families that have a parent that has a bad attitude and I know the effect it has on the children. If I was you, I would get rid of the attitude and start providing an environment of looking ahead in life and not living in the past. Rape is one thing, mental abuse is another. Deceptive as it is, anger not only eats the one that contains it, but destroys the ability of those around it to function correctly. You are in no way changing anything in the fellowship because everyone outside of your family sees you for what you are. What you are doing though is poisoning the minds and hearts of your family. I have read your post for the last couple of years, and read your website... and talked to some that know more about you than I do. This is everyone's "opinion" that I have talked with. You talk of those in the fellowship being blind and not wanting to open their eyes to see the light. Well, we feel we see the light, and you have the blinders on... maybe you need to look more within and correct the wrong there instead of dwelling on those who are never going to think twice about words coming from your twisted anger. QUOTE: In other words, Edgar, they want you to shut up, because they can't stand it when truth is spoken.Nah - that translation misses the mark.
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Post by ithascome on Aug 21, 2007 23:06:43 GMT -5
"no name" I can see how offensive this term is to you.
It reminds me of a rich Independent Texas oil and gas man ("Good Oh Boy" Clayton Williams) who was running for Governor in 1990. He was ahead in the polls until the day he made an infamous joke to reporters, likening bad weather to rape, quipping, "as long as it's inevitable, just relax and enjoy it." That was his downfall... we never heard from him again. At His defeat on election night, Texas television stations showed the glib Williams telling his supporters in Austin: "I've got some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that we lost; the good news is that it is not the end of the world."
There is a lesson in this somewhere .... Edgar.
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Post by he stole that line on Aug 21, 2007 23:17:56 GMT -5
"no name" I can see how offensive this term is to you. It reminds me of a rich Independent Texas oil and gas man ("Good Oh Boy" Clayton Williams) who was running for Governor in 1990. He was ahead in the polls until the day he made an infamous joke to reporters, likening bad weather to rape, quipping, "as long as it's inevitable, just relax and enjoy it." That was his downfall... we never heard from him again. There is a lesson in this.... Edgar. Not only did Clayton Williams make that moronic comment, but he stole it. Indiana basketball coach Bobby Knight made that comment to Connie Chung in 1998 and got skewered for it. Clayton should have learned a lesson back then. Coach Knight was comparing getting blown out in a basketball game to getting raped. "If it's inevitable, sit back and enjoy it." It continues to amaze me in 2007 that people still don't seem to get that using rape in any other context than it's literal form is completely inappropriate and offensive.
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