Bill Easton, NZ worker CSA: what is wrong with 2x2 church?

[mod7]

professing.proboards.com/thread/19137/nz-issue

How many lives have these guys damaged? Truly horrendous.

[mod7]

Nov 28, 2024 22:14:31 GMT -5 fixit said:

This thread was about two men who are finally being brought to justice, 12 years after this thread was started.

This thread illustrates the support these men had in the church.


1. This man currently has name suppression because of a not guilty plea:

www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/535199/second-man-linked-to-the-truth-2x2-religious-sect-charged-with-sex-crimes


2. This man is awaiting sentencing:

professing.proboards.com/thread/32667/worker-pleads-guilty-name-suppression

www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/528876/william-stephen-easton-admits-55-child-sex-abuse-charges-while-member-of-two-by-twos

www.odt.co.nz/news/national/man-admits-55-child-sex-abuse-charges-while-secretive-sect

www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/fbi-probe-into-two-by-twos-cult-leads-to-northland-man-william-eastons-guilty-plea-for-child-abuse/5VMNG3IRPJFZDGXP6DTJGAI4MM/

www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/two-by-twos-sect-faces-scrutiny-as-bill-easton-admits-to-decades-of-abuse/DKZ2NEH6TZDD7GTSSB2WZKVYTE/

[mod7]

Add William Easton and his CSA colleagues in New Zealand with Dean Bruer and colleagues in the States, and the question arises, what is wrong with the 2x2 church and its system of fellowship?

Was it wrong from the start (William Irvine, Eddie Cooney, Jack Carroll and all those early doctrinaire workers)?

Or did it go wrong somewhere along the way? And if so, when and where?

Thoughts?

[landdownunder]

What years did Bill Easton visit Australia on convention rounds? Anybody remember hearing him preach?

[fixit]

Nov 29, 2024 6:47:37 GMT -5 mod7 said:

Add William Easton and his CSA colleagues in New Zealand with Dean Bruer and colleagues in the States, and the question arises, what is wrong with the 2x2 church and its system of fellowship?

Was it wrong from the start (William Irvine, Eddie Cooney, Jack Carroll and all those early doctrinaire workers)?

Or did it go wrong somewhere along the way? And if so, when and where?

Thoughts?

One word comes to mind: idolatry.

Thinking that allegiance to man-made traditions, forms, methods, doctrine, ideology and leadership is worshipping God.

The writings below give a little glimpse of the slide into idolatry...


Goodhand Pattison wrote (probably 1925):

I believe the workers jointly and individually felt Mr. Todd was not the man to superintend and direct such an important movement, and probably pressed Mr. Irvine himself into acceptance of responsibility. The fact that up to that point he had not sought out (place) and any authority which one would think rightly belonged to him spoke volumes for the character and worth of both men, and perhaps we may leave it at that, only to say that "Todd's Mission," as it was then called, shortly became a thing of the past, and I believe I heard later on that Mr. Todd himself had become a sort of a secretary in Liverpool or elsewhere for some foreign mission work.

And the workers now in fellowship with William Irvine went on and increased in numbers, and perhaps I may add increased in their attachment to and respect for their chief's leadership, possibly more so than was good for him or them, for just here I beg leave to say the best of men are but men at best, and when deference, loyalty, obedience to leadership, etc., goes beyond a certain point, it is very apt to become either "popery" with its blind yieldedness to a supposed infallibility, or slavery with its helpless subservience to the will of another, who has the power to enforce it, or it may be sort of mixture of both; but in any case it is bad for both sides making the leader a sort of demigod, filling him with notions of his own indispensability and importance and making of the led ones mere tools and chattels, without the independence of character which is always becoming to a man, or recognizing responsibility to the highest of all authorities which is becoming to a child of God. www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_index/pattisong.php#Leaders

In 1931 Alfred Magowan wrote to Wilson McClung:

I do not know how far back your memory and experience goes; but in 1907, I remember seeing you at Crocknacrieve when, as a people with a testimony, we were at our spiritual best.

My own experience goes back to 1902, and my most real recollection of fellowship was that gathering in Portadown 28 or 29 years ago. [Portadown Co. Armagh, Ireland Convention] There were no regulations and no asserting of authority. The Lord had mercifully set us free in spirit to worship and serve him under the guidance of the Holy Spirit through a good conscience; and there was neither machinery nor any of those things that religious people think necessary and which are necessary in sects under human control. There was nothing in the vision we had of 'the way in Jesus' that would have led us towards another kind of sectarianism, nor did we ever anticipate a time when we would become a strong people in an evil world.

We had only one commission and that was to make disciples as we had been made; and we had only one authority, viz., if the Lord was with us we would so live and speak that He would use us in getting people saved. And as they listened to us they would recognize the voice of Him because of the anointing. That was the simple outline in the days of our beginning.

Afterwards, dominion began to appear, and God’s answer was the casting of it down in the person of William Irvine. That ought to have been the end of it, but it was not taken to heart by those who exulted under him. And the same spirit that had set him above his brethren began to be seen in them, so that in a little while they had divided the earth among themselves as rulers over little kingdoms, exercising authority after the way and according to the spirit of Rome, and doing violence to the consciences of men in the name of the ‘Truth' or the 'Testimony'. When the anointing ceased, authority took its place, and then cruelty had to be resorted to in keeping people under control. It has always been so, as in the case of Saul toward David; but it always works out in the triumph of the anointing, and martyrs have been made in that conflict. www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_early/magowan_letters.php#Wilson

In 1999, Dale Shultz wrote:

We also know that a point could be reached in these different relationships in which submission is generally expected where, because of some deep conviction before God, we would feel that we could not submit to something that is being asked of us. However, there is also great danger in "not submitting" and in taking a rebel attitude when the situation doesn't warrant that extreme position in God's mind.

So, I would like to encourage all of you to accept the present situation, knowing that quite a bit has been done to bring concerns to the attention of the overseers. The present situation remains in spite of these concerns having been very publicly expressed and drawn to the attention of the overseers. Whether the decision is right or wrong, the right thing for all of us is to respect it because of those who have made the judgement. If the decision is wrong, I am sure that the Lord will have ways of correcting that over time. He still is very much on the throne. www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_later/shultz-AB.php

[Pragmatic]

Nov 29, 2024 6:39:03 GMT -5 mod7 said:

professing.proboards.com/thread/19137/nz-issue

How many lives have these guys damaged? Truly horrendous.

It is estimated to be hundreds

[Pragmatic]

Nov 29, 2024 15:41:52 GMT -5 fixit said:

Nov 29, 2024 6:47:37 GMT -5 mod7 said:

Add William Easton and his CSA colleagues in New Zealand with Dean Bruer and colleagues in the States, and the question arises, what is wrong with the 2x2 church and its system of fellowship?

Was it wrong from the start (William Irvine, Eddie Cooney, Jack Carroll and all those early doctrinaire workers)?

Or did it go wrong somewhere along the way? And if so, when and where?

Thoughts?

One word comes to mind: idolatry.

Thinking that allegiance to man-made traditions, forms, methods, doctrine, ideology and leadership is worshipping God.

The writings below give a little glimpse of the slide into idolatry...


Goodhand Pattison wrote (probably 1925):

In 1931 Alfred Magowan wrote to Wilson McClung:

I do not know how far back your memory and experience goes; but in 1907, I remember seeing you at Crocknacrieve when, as a people with a testimony, we were at our spiritual best.

My own experience goes back to 1902, and my most real recollection of fellowship was that gathering in Portadown 28 or 29 years ago. [Portadown Co. Armagh, Ireland Convention] There were no regulations and no asserting of authority. The Lord had mercifully set us free in spirit to worship and serve him under the guidance of the Holy Spirit through a good conscience; and there was neither machinery nor any of those things that religious people think necessary and which are necessary in sects under human control. There was nothing in the vision we had of 'the way in Jesus' that would have led us towards another kind of sectarianism, nor did we ever anticipate a time when we would become a strong people in an evil world.

We had only one commission and that was to make disciples as we had been made; and we had only one authority, viz., if the Lord was with us we would so live and speak that He would use us in getting people saved. And as they listened to us they would recognize the voice of Him because of the anointing. That was the simple outline in the days of our beginning.

Afterwards, dominion began to appear, and God’s answer was the casting of it down in the person of William Irvine. That ought to have been the end of it, but it was not taken to heart by those who exulted under him. And the same spirit that had set him above his brethren began to be seen in them, so that in a little while they had divided the earth among themselves as rulers over little kingdoms, exercising authority after the way and according to the spirit of Rome, and doing violence to the consciences of men in the name of the ‘Truth' or the 'Testimony'. When the anointing ceased, authority took its place, and then cruelty had to be resorted to in keeping people under control. It has always been so, as in the case of Saul toward David; but it always works out in the triumph of the anointing, and martyrs have been made in that conflict. www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_early/magowan_letters.php#Wilson

In 1999, Dale Shultz wrote:

We also know that a point could be reached in these different relationships in which submission is generally expected where, because of some deep conviction before God, we would feel that we could not submit to something that is being asked of us. However, there is also great danger in "not submitting" and in taking a rebel attitude when the situation doesn't warrant that extreme position in God's mind.

So, I would like to encourage all of you to accept the present situation, knowing that quite a bit has been done to bring concerns to the attention of the overseers. The present situation remains in spite of these concerns having been very publicly expressed and drawn to the attention of the overseers. Whether the decision is right or wrong, the right thing for all of us is to respect it because of those who have made the judgement. If the decision is wrong, I am sure that the Lord will have ways of correcting that over time. He still is very much on the throne.

And Dale is one of the big three (triumvirate) with Ray Hoffman, and Barry Barclay. The attitude expressed then is doubled down on by the others, and reinforced by the next layer down such as Craig W, Darly D, Mervin A etc.

It is then passed down to Alan Mitchell, and everyone else gets aboard. An example is the abandonment of the Grace recommendations on CSA.

And you know how true this is when you try and go against it

[fixit]

Dale also wrote:

We realize that the fact that we are servants of God, or even very responsible servants of God, doesn't make us infallible. However, something that is very much a part of being a child of God is to respect those who are over us in the Lord, to pray for them, to obey them, to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. Their judgement may not always be right, but it is always right for us to respect that judgement and to work with it in the best way that we possibly can.

These "very responsible servants of God" were upfront when the Alberta atrocities were being committed.

Where are these "very responsible servants of God" now that real leadership is sorely needed?

[curlywurlysammagee]

Nov 29, 2024 6:47:37 GMT -5 mod7 said:

Add William Easton and his CSA colleagues in New Zealand with Dean Bruer and colleagues in the States, and the question arises, what is wrong with the 2x2 church and its system of fellowship?

Was it wrong from the start (William Irvine, Eddie Cooney, Jack Carroll and all those early doctrinaire workers)?

Or did it go wrong somewhere along the way? And if so, when and where?

Thoughts?

It is not only the 2x2 that has this issue. As far as I can see, all churches and religions have it. Other groups that have sexual abuse issues are the teaching profession, the coaching profession, armed forces, and work places. At least in secular situations it may be easier to resolve the issue. In a religious setting the powerful prey n the weak with seeming impunity because the victims are scared that if they speak out they will lose out. I have read what the top workers have said about praying for them and also Fixits comment about idolatory.
But this needs to be taken to a deeper level. The idolatory starts when a person starts worshipping a mythical being. Religions not only attract the humble and seeking person but also the power hungry and deluded. We have had two very good examples of that on tmb with Nathan and review. There is also the people who have no moral compass in their pursuit of sexual pleasure. Examples of that are Bruer and Easton. Yet these same men are the ones that are giving spiritual advice and guidance and claiming, just like Nathan does that they are lead by the holy spirit. They are the ones that aretaking advantage of any power imbalance they see.
Removing that power imbalance is the key. It starts by letting go of mythology.

[Pragmatic]

Nov 29, 2024 16:00:34 GMT -5 fixit said:

Dale also wrote:

We realize that the fact that we are servants of God, or even very responsible servants of God, doesn't make us infallible. However, something that is very much a part of being a child of God is to respect those who are over us in the Lord, to pray for them, to obey them, to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. Their judgement may not always be right, but it is always right for us to respect that judgement and to work with it in the best way that we possibly can.

These "very responsible servants of God" were upfront when the Alberta atrocities were being committed.

Where are these "very responsible servants of God" now that real leadership is sorely needed?

Oh yes, and now they're just working hard behind the scenes to hold on to their power, control, and therefore access to the trust accounts. Accountability and transparency is the furtherest thing from their minds, let alone any victims. Genuine and sincere workers must be feeling extremely let down.

As well as the direct damage to victims, there is also the indirect damage all those who are let down, deceived or ignored by those who wish  to simply hold onto the status quo.

I am thinking of the elderly who are just now starting to hear of these things, and are in total shock. I am thinking of an old man who begged an overseer 15 years ago to deal with an offender. Today he is distraught, because his please were ignored. I am thinking of those who are sincere and devout, and wholly believe in the doctrine of exclusivity, but are now not sure what to think or believe. They do not who to trust. I am thinking of a sincere worker who has been inconsolable and in tears about the situation. My mind also turns to some older couples who have devoted their lives, a lot of money, and made huge emotional and logistical investments in the church, but are sidelined because they have stood up for what is right.

Glib answers like "look to Jesus", or "pray about it" are not the answers. The problems are systemic, and man-made, so they should be man-fixed, but the workers seem to be unwilling to pay the price necessary to address the problem

[BobWilliston]

Nov 29, 2024 23:35:09 GMT -5 Pragmatic said:

Nov 29, 2024 16:00:34 GMT -5 fixit said:

Dale also wrote:

These "very responsible servants of God" were upfront when the Alberta atrocities were being committed.

Where are these "very responsible servants of God" now that real leadership is sorely needed?

Oh yes, and now they're just working hard behind the scenes to hold on to their power, control, and therefore access to the trust accounts. Accountability and transparency is the furtherest thing from their minds, let alone any victims. Genuine and sincere workers must be feeling extremely let down.

So now they're dealing with all the problems they told us only false religions have to deal with.

[Pragmatic]

Nov 29, 2024 23:49:40 GMT -5 BobWilliston said:

Nov 29, 2024 23:35:09 GMT -5 Pragmatic said:

Oh yes, and now they're just working hard behind the scenes to hold on to their power, control, and therefore access to the trust accounts. Accountability and transparency is the furtherest thing from their minds, let alone any victims. Genuine and sincere workers must be feeling extremely let down.

So now they're dealing with all the problems they told us only false religions have to deal with.

And they can't see the irony in that

[BobWilliston]

Nov 30, 2024 2:23:25 GMT -5 Pragmatic said:

Nov 29, 2024 23:49:40 GMT -5 BobWilliston said:

So now they're dealing with all the problems they told us only false religions have to deal with.

And they can't see the irony in that

When I was a kid I was ALWAYS in trouble for pointing such things out to people.
I think I embarrassed a lot of adults, but gee whiz, I always thought they were stupid not to know it already.

[finlandia]

When did it start to go wrong? Possibly sometime around 1904 with the introduction of the "Living Witness" doctrine. Joe Kerr, who was largely responsible for this development, subsequently admitted that he was wrong. But, by then, it was too late - the doctrine had become firmly established. Still today, many workers believe that (a) they are right and every other sect or denomination is wrong, and (b) the only way salvation can be obtained is by listening to the Gospel preached by the workers. Eddie Cooney was right to reject this thinking. Thankfully, some workers (a minority, I would think) are a bit more open minded about this now.

[chuck]

Nov 29, 2024 23:35:09 GMT -5 Pragmatic said:

Nov 29, 2024 16:00:34 GMT -5 fixit said:

Dale also wrote:

These "very responsible servants of God" were upfront when the Alberta atrocities were being committed.

Where are these "very responsible servants of God" now that real leadership is sorely needed?

Oh yes, and now they're just working hard behind the scenes to hold on to their power, control, and therefore access to the trust accounts. Accountability and transparency is the furtherest thing from their minds, let alone any victims. Genuine and sincere workers must be feeling extremely let down.

As well as the direct damage to victims, there is also the indirect damage all those who are let down, deceived or ignored by those who wish  to simply hold onto the status quo.

I am thinking of the elderly who are just now starting to hear of these things, and are in total shock. I am thinking of an old man who begged an overseer 15 years ago to deal with an offender. Today he is distraught, because his please were ignored. I am thinking of those who are sincere and devout, and wholly believe in the doctrine of exclusivity, but are now not sure what to think or believe. They do not who to trust. I am thinking of a sincere worker who has been inconsolable and in tears about the situation. My mind also turns to some older couples who have devoted their lives, a lot of money, and made huge emotional and logistical investments in the church, but are sidelined because they have stood up for what is right.

Glib answers like "look to Jesus", or "pray about it" are not the answers. The problems are systemic, and man-made, so they should be man-fixed, but the workers seem to be unwilling to pay the price necessary to address the problem

"They do not know who to trust."

That's because their Jesus was actually the workers and their God was the system.

If they trusted in the Christ character there would be zero confusion. Compassionate gracious, slow to anger and abounding in loving kindness and truth......

[help]

The 2x2 Church will always be in turmoil if it doesn't have a defined management structure known to everybody. A Church is a business and will never function run in a clandestine manner. Any business run this way will fail. Laity must have input in Church management.

The way the 2x2 Church is organised reminds me of the joke about the meeting the body had, quote,

All the organs of the body were having a meeting, trying to decide who was the one in charge...
"I should be in charge," said the brain , "Because I run all the body's systems, so without me nothing would happen."

"I should be in charge," said the blood , "Because I circulate oxygen all over so without me you'd waste away."

"I should be in charge," said the stomach," Because I process food and give all of you energy."

"I should be in charge," said the legs, "because I carry the body wherever it needs to go."

"I should be in charge," said the eyes, "Because I allow the body to see where it goes."

"I should be in charge," said the rectum, "Because Im responsible for waste removal."

All the other body parts laughed at the rectum And insulted him, so in a huff, he shut down tight. Within a few days, the brain had a terrible headache, the stomach was bloated, the legs got wobbly, the eyes got watery, and the blood Was toxic. They all decided that the rectum should be the boss

The Moral of the story? Even though the others do all the work.... The ass hole is usually in charge.

[fixit]

Nov 29, 2024 15:42:32 GMT -5 Pragmatic said:

Nov 29, 2024 6:39:03 GMT -5 mod7 said:

professing.proboards.com/thread/19137/nz-issue

How many lives have these guys damaged? Truly horrendous.

It is estimated to be hundreds

Our resident worker thought more highly of these two men than he thought of me.

As far as I can tell my crime was being honest about the history of the church when some young men came to me with printouts from the internet.

It's interesting where the ministry's loyalties lie.

[Dan]

Nov 30, 2024 17:49:08 GMT -5 help said:

The 2x2 Church will always be in turmoil if it doesn't have a defined management structure known to everybody. A Church is a business and will never function run in a clandestine manner. Any business run this way will fail. Laity must have input in Church management.

The way the 2x2 Church is organised reminds me of the joke about the meeting the body had, quote,

All the organs of the body were having a meeting, trying to decide who was the one in charge...
"I should be in charge," said the brain , "Because I run all the body's systems, so without me nothing would happen."

"I should be in charge," said the blood , "Because I circulate oxygen all over so without me you'd waste away."

"I should be in charge," said the stomach," Because I process food and give all of you energy."

"I should be in charge," said the legs, "because I carry the body wherever it needs to go."

"I should be in charge," said the eyes, "Because I allow the body to see where it goes."

"I should be in charge," said the rectum, "Because Im responsible for waste removal."

All the other body parts laughed at the rectum And insulted him, so in a huff, he shut down tight. Within a few days, the brain had a terrible headache, the stomach was bloated, the legs got wobbly, the eyes got watery, and the blood Was toxic. They all decided that the rectum should be the boss

The Moral of the story? Even though the others do all the work.... The ass hole is usually in charge.

Funny ....  In relation to the church, Christ has got to be the heart of it, "Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body" (Ephesians 5:23).. "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence" (Colossians 1:18).

"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Jeremiah 31:33).

[help]

For any Church to function, there has to be a both a spiritual and business aspect to it.

Ministers or Workers are there to preach and teach, the spiritual part, not involved in management.
A committee chosen from laity, look after the business side, finances, etc.

This structure works well. I had the privilege of the position of Treasurer in a main stream Church for some years. I learnt how a proper Church should operate with first hand experience, not just talking about it.

[BobWilliston]

Nov 30, 2024 19:32:44 GMT -5 help said:

For any Church to function, there has to be a both a spiritual and business aspect to it.

Minister or Workers are there to preach and teach, the spiritual part, not involved in management.
A committee chosen from laity, look after the business side, finances, etc.

This structure works well. I had the privilege of the position of Treasurer in a main stream Church for some years. I learnt how a proper Church should operate with first hand experience, not just talking about it.

I had a religious studies professor say that the purpose of organizing anything is for control.
The problem with religions is that someone has to have control because they all can't trust
everyone to mind their own business. Unfortunately they're right - - but it doesn't prevent
individuals from looking after their own conscience and allowing everyone else to do take
care of their own. Since it seems you can't force anyone to save themselves no matter what.

[chuck]

Nov 29, 2024 23:49:40 GMT -5 BobWilliston said:

Nov 29, 2024 23:35:09 GMT -5 Pragmatic said:

Oh yes, and now they're just working hard behind the scenes to hold on to their power, control, and therefore access to the trust accounts. Accountability and transparency is the furtherest thing from their minds, let alone any victims. Genuine and sincere workers must be feeling extremely let down.

So now they're dealing with all the problems they told us only false religions have to deal with.

The honeymoon has well and truly ended.

[chuck]

Nov 30, 2024 17:49:08 GMT -5 help said:

The 2x2 Church will always be in turmoil if it doesn't have a defined management structure known to everybody. A Church is a business and will never function run in a clandestine manner. Any business run this way will fail. Laity must have input in Church management.

The way the 2x2 Church is organised reminds me of the joke about the meeting the body had, quote,

All the organs of the body were having a meeting, trying to decide who was the one in charge...
"I should be in charge," said the brain , "Because I run all the body's systems, so without me nothing would happen."

"I should be in charge," said the blood , "Because I circulate oxygen all over so without me you'd waste away."

"I should be in charge," said the stomach," Because I process food and give all of you energy."

"I should be in charge," said the legs, "because I carry the body wherever it needs to go."

"I should be in charge," said the eyes, "Because I allow the body to see where it goes."

"I should be in charge," said the rectum, "Because Im responsible for waste removal."

All the other body parts laughed at the rectum And insulted him, so in a huff, he shut down tight. Within a few days, the brain had a terrible headache, the stomach was bloated, the legs got wobbly, the eyes got watery, and the blood Was toxic. They all decided that the rectum should be the boss

The Moral of the story? Even though the others do all the work.... The ass hole is usually in charge.

Whatever defined management structure they put in place will always fail because they build it on something that's not true.

[chuck]

Nov 30, 2024 20:28:27 GMT -5 BobWilliston said:

Nov 30, 2024 19:32:44 GMT -5 help said:

For any Church to function, there has to be a both a spiritual and business aspect to it.

Minister or Workers are there to preach and teach, the spiritual part, not involved in management.
A committee chosen from laity, look after the business side, finances, etc.

This structure works well. I had the privilege of the position of Treasurer in a main stream Church for some years. I learnt how a proper Church should operate with first hand experience, not just talking about it.

I had a religious studies professor say that the purpose of organizing anything is for control.
The problem with religions is that someone has to have control because they all can't trust
everyone to mind their own business. Unfortunately they're right - - but it doesn't prevent
individuals from looking after their own conscience and allowing everyone else to do take
care of their own. Since it seems you can't force anyone to save themselves no matter what.

Exactly.

The gracious compassionate ect ect character saves you from yourself.


James 1:27
[27]Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

So pure religion has nothing to do with todays religion and everything to do with what you do outside today's religion.

[BobWilliston]

Nov 30, 2024 20:47:35 GMT -5 chuck said:

Nov 30, 2024 17:49:08 GMT -5 help said:

The 2x2 Church will always be in turmoil if it doesn't have a defined management structure known to everybody. A Church is a business and will never function run in a clandestine manner. Any business run this way will fail. Laity must have input in Church management.

The way the 2x2 Church is organised reminds me of the joke about the meeting the body had, quote,

All the organs of the body were having a meeting, trying to decide who was the one in charge...
"I should be in charge," said the brain , "Because I run all the body's systems, so without me nothing would happen."

"I should be in charge," said the blood , "Because I circulate oxygen all over so without me you'd waste away."

"I should be in charge," said the stomach," Because I process food and give all of you energy."

"I should be in charge," said the legs, "because I carry the body wherever it needs to go."

"I should be in charge," said the eyes, "Because I allow the body to see where it goes."

"I should be in charge," said the rectum, "Because Im responsible for waste removal."

All the other body parts laughed at the rectum And insulted him, so in a huff, he shut down tight. Within a few days, the brain had a terrible headache, the stomach was bloated, the legs got wobbly, the eyes got watery, and the blood Was toxic. They all decided that the rectum should be the boss

The Moral of the story? Even though the others do all the work.... The ass hole is usually in charge.

Whatever defined management structure they put in place will always fail because they build it on something that's not true.

At least the Catholics have a pope.
But even that is an organization.

[BobWilliston]

Nov 30, 2024 20:56:15 GMT -5 chuck said:

Nov 30, 2024 20:28:27 GMT -5 BobWilliston said:

I had a religious studies professor say that the purpose of organizing anything is for control.
The problem with religions is that someone has to have control because they all can't trust
everyone to mind their own business. Unfortunately they're right - - but it doesn't prevent
individuals from looking after their own conscience and allowing everyone else to do take
care of their own. Since it seems you can't force anyone to save themselves no matter what.

Exactly.

The gracious compassionate ect ect character saves you from yourself.


James 1:27
[27]Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

So pure religion has nothing to do with todays religion and everything to do with what you do outside today's religion.

It reminds me of what someone said about class.
The person who has class, loses it the minute he decides he has it.

[curlywurlysammagee]

Nov 30, 2024 20:47:35 GMT -5 chuck said:

Nov 30, 2024 17:49:08 GMT -5 help said:

The 2x2 Church will always be in turmoil if it doesn't have a defined management structure known to everybody. A Church is a business and will never function run in a clandestine manner. Any business run this way will fail. Laity must have input in Church management.

The way the 2x2 Church is organised reminds me of the joke about the meeting the body had, quote,

All the organs of the body were having a meeting, trying to decide who was the one in charge...
"I should be in charge," said the brain , "Because I run all the body's systems, so without me nothing would happen."

"I should be in charge," said the blood , "Because I circulate oxygen all over so without me you'd waste away."

"I should be in charge," said the stomach," Because I process food and give all of you energy."

"I should be in charge," said the legs, "because I carry the body wherever it needs to go."

"I should be in charge," said the eyes, "Because I allow the body to see where it goes."

"I should be in charge," said the rectum, "Because Im responsible for waste removal."

All the other body parts laughed at the rectum And insulted him, so in a huff, he shut down tight. Within a few days, the brain had a terrible headache, the stomach was bloated, the legs got wobbly, the eyes got watery, and the blood Was toxic. They all decided that the rectum should be the boss

The Moral of the story? Even though the others do all the work.... The ass hole is usually in charge.

Whatever defined management structure they put in place will always fail because they build it on something that's not true.

Are you referring to the 2x2 cult or mythology as a whole?

[BobWilliston]

Nov 30, 2024 21:50:39 GMT -5 BobWilliston said:

Nov 30, 2024 20:56:15 GMT -5 chuck said:

Exactly.

The gracious compassionate ect ect character saves you from yourself.


James 1:27
[27]Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

So pure religion has nothing to do with todays religion and everything to do with what who do outside today's religion.

It reminds me of what someone said about class.
The person who has class, loses it the minute he decides he has it.

And that reminds me of the elder of the meeting you liked to yell at me.

I made that statement once in my testimony in meeting.
After the meeting he said to me, "I know you're a teacher, but I didn't understand what you said about your class."

[curlywurlysammagee]

Nov 30, 2024 21:57:38 GMT -5 BobWilliston said:

Nov 30, 2024 21:50:39 GMT -5 BobWilliston said:

It reminds me of what someone said about class.
The person who has class, loses it the minute he decides he has it.

And that reminds me of the elder of the meeting you liked to yell at me.

I made that statement once in my testimony in meeting.
After the meeting he said to me, "I know you're a teacher, but I didn't understand what you said about your class."

Was he home schooled?
(Terrible pun)