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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 22, 2024 17:21:29 GMT -5
You were never subjected to his intense continuous personally insulting treatment. That is the first rule of maintaining a civil chat site. It's already been proven that this forum is far more pleasant when Nathan isn't spewing his insults. I suspect no one has made that kind of claim about you - - good for you. But you must admit, the insults are two-sided. From my observation, most of Nathans insults were defensive rebuttals. When a persons history, job, family, and beliefs are attacked and demeaned, its natural and probably expected to get a negative response.
Respecting a persons beliefs, no matter how absurd they may seem, might eliminate hostile retorts, because;
So you'd be happy if I called you a $sh1thead? |
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Post by Dan on Nov 22, 2024 18:25:26 GMT -5
But you must admit, the insults are two-sided. From my observation, most of Nathans insults were defensive rebuttals. When a persons history, job, family, and beliefs are attacked and demeaned, its natural and probably expected to get a negative response.
Respecting a persons beliefs, no matter how absurd they may seem, might eliminate hostile retorts, because;
So you'd be happy if I called you a $sh1thead?
That's exactly how all these nasty exchanges get started... Disagreeing with someone without being belligerent is something most people can live with. Its throwing in the nasty comments that start these little feuds.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 22, 2024 18:38:49 GMT -5
So you'd be happy if I called you a $sh1thead? That's exactly how all these nasty exchanges get started... Disagreeing with someone without being belligerent is something most people can live with. Its throwing in the nasty comments that start these little feuds.
You still missed the point. It's the NASY name calling -- unlike a civil disagreement, derogatory name calling is an intentional devaluation of the person himself. I suspect you would soon tire of me referring to you as Mr. S- - - - - -! |
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 22, 2024 18:41:08 GMT -5
I'm tempted not to refer to you by that name any longer, since I don't seem to be getting a nasty response out of you.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 22, 2024 18:43:58 GMT -5
So you'd be happy if I called you a $sh1thead?
That's exactly how all these nasty exchanges get started... Disagreeing with someone without being belligerent is something most people can live with. Its throwing in the nasty comments that start these little feuds.
I recall when I first joined that Nathan was posting his hollow earth stuff. I replied and pointed out that no planet was hollow and the various reasons. I also pointed out that Fwank Stranges story was full of holes. Nathan replied by calling me various names. He has a lot of himself invested in the hollow earth and venus bullsh1t. It's a similar nonsense to the Genesis story, virgin birth story and so on in the bible. I am not surprised that people fall for these stories. Especially those like myself who was brought up to believe in god. Faith beliefs have a detrimental effect on critical thinking skills. It was not until I completely cast off the stone age beliefs that I was able to think rationally. |
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Post by passingby on Nov 22, 2024 22:08:28 GMT -5
No Dan , if you'd been paying attention, here's the reason why Nathan was given a short holiday: I am asking nathan2 to refrain from posting, ever and on any topic, here on the main board of TMB. And this reminder just recently: Nathan, last chance! (keep pushing the boundary and you'll find we mean it) And many more such warnings (requested by many members from right across the spectrum of beliefs), all quite arrogantly ignored by Nathan. And just for the record, the line you highlight in Nathan's recent post equating workers with Jesus, Son of Holy God and spotless lamb of God, would go close to blasphemy in my book. It's not enough to get a ban from TMB, but simply underlines the error in certain corners of the 2x2 church doctrine. Reply, Sorry about the extensive snipping of the above post, just the things to comment on. First, I don't read much of Nathan's posts either especially if I recognize they're about Venus etc, I don't read comic books (much) anymore either. They did me no more harm than Nathan now. Second, How about putting a muzzle on the other ox(en). Try deleting all replies to Nathan, since they don't seem able on their own? Ah well, my experience in matters like these is that arguments or logic matter less and less as they go on and on, the bottom line, so long as Nathan is gone, - one way or the other. Like it or lump it. The "reason" given to Dan seems to have devolved into that situation just about everyone has at one time or another faced against authority, - shut up - because I said so, or else. From what I've read here, that's a big complaint from ex's about workers. Third, "...equating workers with Jesus...(is) close to blasphemy in my book." My understanding is that if you have been born again of the water and The Spirit, you are by definition a Son of God. You are a brother in and of Christ/God. Otherwise, who is Your Father? And finally you are washed in the blood of the Lamb, and thereby spotless, whether legalistic Satan or similarly minded detractors like it or not. To me it would be blasphemous of a Christian to denying their equality with Jesus. That's the promise, and welcome to the brotherhood. No offense meant. just as I see it. But I could be wrong. |
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Post by passingby on Nov 22, 2024 22:32:06 GMT -5
That's exactly how all these nasty exchanges get started... Disagreeing with someone without being belligerent is something most people can live with. Its throwing in the nasty comments that start these little feuds.
I recall when I first joined that Nathan was posting his hollow earth stuff. I replied and pointed out that no planet was hollow and the various reasons. I also pointed out that Fwank Stranges story was full of holes. Nathan replied by calling me various names. He has a lot of himself invested in the hollow earth and venus bullsh1t. It's a similar nonsense to the Genesis story, virgin birth story and so on in the bible. I am not surprised that people fall for these stories. Especially those like myself who was brought up to believe in god. Faith beliefs have a detrimental effect on critical thinking skills. It was not until I completely cast off the stone age beliefs that I was able to think rationally. Reply, I agree, belief and logic often collide. That's true with all of us I think, well me anyway for sure. If you believe something, you aren't going to change your mind with someone on the internet. And you probably shouldn't. In fact I'd say I'm more likely to dig my heels in and argue all the more otherwise, especially if someone calls you stupid or whatever other inventive clever names are brought to bear. An almost universally self defeating tactic it seems to me. So why does it persist? So, thinking about this, I've wondered, who does get through to me? What works? Is that a tactic I should use when dealing with another? In fact, isn't that (or shouldn't that be) the "Christ Like Way" - or for the secular " do unto other as you would have them do unto you" Just doesn't seem to be the way things are though.... sadly. What has worked for you? I've come to many of the same conclusions you have, so honestly I just can't act like I believe in God or God's, so in honesty I just had to leave fellowship with the friends and workers, or my Christian friends. When I've explained that, they all seem to nod their heads and say, well, we wouldn't want you to be dishonest and faking it either. - But If you'd like to come by our services anyway, you're welcome. I appreciate that. And as well, I once believed much like I think you do, and did too, so I certainly can't condemn them or Nathan for that matter, or call them stupid, without condemning myself for what I honestly and sincerely believed. The very same kind of sincerity I have now. I was wrong then, but I didn't believe so, I could be wrong now, but I don't believe so. A friend and former worker (but still a deeply believing Christian), after we were talking about this said, - promise me - if at the end of life you come to be afraid that there is a God, and you come to believe again as you once did, you will call again on God as you once stood to your feet and did. I had no problem shaking his hand and saying - no problem. If God is the God I imagine, honest people are who he's after. If not, and things are as I believe I'll be happy to Rest In Peace. I've had a good life all in all. I really don't want to be around for an eternity, that's an awful long time. |
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Post by Dan on Nov 23, 2024 0:07:14 GMT -5
I'm tempted not to refer to you by that name any longer, since I don't seem to be getting a nasty response out of you.
A nasty response to name calling would indicate that someone cared. That's pride, its what brought Satan down.
I've learned that if a person can remove all pride, and I mean all pride, its impossible to insult them. I've never been insulted, I'm relatively certain its impossible.
"You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free” (John 8:32). That same Truth frees a person from the judgement, opinions, and insults from others. You have no need to defend or stand up for yourself if his truth resides in you. Of course, Jesus called the Pharisees fools, hypocrites, serpents, vipers, unclean, liars, etc.. But that was a statement of fact, not opinion. Sometimes calling a spade a spade isn't name calling, but functions as an accurate description and a blunt method of correction.
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Post by Dan on Nov 23, 2024 0:45:33 GMT -5
Reply, Sorry about the extensive snipping of the above post, just the things to comment on. First, I don't read much of Nathan's posts either especially if I recognize they're about Venus etc, I don't read comic books (much) anymore either. They did me no more harm than Nathan now.
Second, How about putting a muzzle on the other ox(en). Try deleting all replies to Nathan, since they don't seem able on their own? Ah well, my experience in matters like these is that arguments or logic matter less and less as they go on and on, the bottom line, so long as Nathan is gone, - one way or the other. Like it or lump it. The "reason" given to Dan seems to have devolved into that situation just about everyone has at one time or another faced against authority, - shut up - because I said so, or else. From what I've read here, that's a big complaint from ex's about workers. Third, "...equating workers with Jesus...(is) close to blasphemy in my book." My understanding is that if you have been born again of the water and The Spirit, you are by definition a Son of God. You are a brother in and of Christ/God. Otherwise, who is Your Father? And finally you are washed in the blood of the Lamb, and thereby spotless, whether legalistic Satan or similarly minded detractors like it or not. To me it would be blasphemous of a Christian to denying their equality with Jesus. That's the promise, and welcome to the brotherhood. No offense meant. just as I see it. But I could be wrong.
That was my only contention, there were several demeaning and hostile post directed towards Nathan, no doubt meant to antagonize him and solicit a negative response. But there was a separate section for threads in the 'General' portion of the board set aside for off topic conversations. Its understandable why those type of nonsensical debates would be off-putting to nonmembers reading the main forum board. It worked for a while, but somehow contamination spread to the main section and had to be squelched. The moderators need to preserve a degree of sanity and remove the childish banter.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 23, 2024 1:50:06 GMT -5
I'm tempted not to refer to you by that name any longer, since I don't seem to be getting a nasty response out of you. A nasty response to name calling would indicate that someone cared. That's pride, its what brought Satan down. I've learned that if a person can remove all pride, and I mean all pride, its impossible to insult them. I've never been insulted, I'm relatively certain its impossible. "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free” (John 8:32). That same Truth frees a person from the judgement, opinions, and insults from others. You have no need to defend or stand up for yourself if his truth resides in you. Of course, Jesus called the Pharisees fools, hypocrites, serpents, vipers, unclean, liars, etc.. But that was a statement of fact, not opinion. Sometimes calling a spade a spade isn't name calling, but functions as an accurate description and a blunt method of correction.
So assuming some guy damned your wife to hell -- you'd be satisfied with just advising her to be humble and be unfazed? |
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Post by passingby on Nov 23, 2024 9:17:46 GMT -5
I'd laugh good naturedly.
You gotta feel sorry for people like that. Especially knowing how they can deliver such lines. They've been led down the garden path, so to speak.
In this case laughter, not nasty or derisive laughter, would be my prescription for the best medicine.
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Post by Annan on Nov 23, 2024 9:49:30 GMT -5
So assuming some guy damned your wife to hell -- you'd be satisfied with just advising her to be humble and be unfazed? What Natie always failed to understand is that this is a forum. All of you are nameless people I have never met. What anyone in real life or on a forum has to say about me rolls off me like water on a duck's back. Who cares? Unless you are paying my bills, you have no impact on my life. Natie takes things way too personally. He posts his personal private info and screams bloody murder when someone asks questions or calls him on the carpet for what doesn't make sense or is in contradiction to what he previously posted. (If you are going to lie, you need a good memory.) He takes no responsibility and blames others for his timeouts on the forum. I'm sure he's stewing in his own juices right now. Well, I've said enough. |
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Post by Pragmatic on Nov 23, 2024 17:28:21 GMT -5
Yes they are nameless people, but I personally feel the need to defend someone being attacked without cause, or defend against someone trying to ram down science fiction as fact, and threatening people who do not believe it. That is something innate in most people to do that.
I am on a few forums, and a moderator on a music forum, and have been for decades. I have never seen the likes of what we have witnessed from Nathan.
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Post by Dan on Nov 23, 2024 18:46:14 GMT -5
A nasty response to name calling would indicate that someone cared. That's pride, its what brought Satan down. I've learned that if a person can remove all pride, and I mean all pride, its impossible to insult them. I've never been insulted, I'm relatively certain its impossible. "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free” (John 8:32). That same Truth frees a person from the judgement, opinions, and insults from others. You have no need to defend or stand up for yourself if his truth resides in you. Of course, Jesus called the Pharisees fools, hypocrites, serpents, vipers, unclean, liars, etc.. But that was a statement of fact, not opinion. Sometimes calling a spade a spade isn't name calling, but functions as an accurate description and a blunt method of correction.
So assuming some guy damned your wife to hell -- you'd be satisfied with just advising her to be humble and be unfazed?
Absolutely.. The purpose for someone threatening hellfire would be satisfied when they got the negative reaction they expected.. By remaining unfazed, your lending no credibility to the allegation.
If someone honks at you in traffic and is yelling "You s.o.b." out their window, waving back at them as though they were a friend is the best reaction. Getting upset would fulfill their purpose by allowing them to transfer their anger to you, while a friendly wave would leave their anger with them, maybe even intensify it by frustrating them?
I never understood how an atheist could be insulted by someone telling them they're going to hell? Why give someone the satisfaction of upsetting you by telling you that your going to a place that you don't even believe exist? Only pride would put you in a defensive mode.
When someone calls you a name and you respond by returning the favor, they've won. The whole purpose of insulting someone is to extract a negative reaction. They succeed when you get agitated, your feelings are hurt, and your lowered to their level. Lots of insults were shouted at Jesus while he was hanging on the cross, he didn't defend himself, but prayed; 'Forgive them Father, for they are idiots'.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 23, 2024 19:28:31 GMT -5
So assuming some guy damned your wife to hell -- you'd be satisfied with just advising her to be humble and be unfazed?
Absolutely.. The purpose for someone threatening hellfire would be satisfied when they got the negative reaction they expected.. By remaining unfazed, your lending no credibility to the allegation.
If someone honks at you in traffic and is yelling "You s.o.b." out their window, waving back at them as though they were a friend is the best reaction. Getting upset would fulfill their purpose by allowing them to transfer their anger to you, while a friendly wave would leave their anger with them, maybe even intensify it by frustrating them?
I never understood how an atheist could be insulted by someone telling them they're going to hell? Why give someone the satisfaction of upsetting you by telling you that your going to a place that you don't even believe exist? Only pride would put you in a defensive mode.
When someone calls you a name and you respond by returning the favor, they've won. The whole purpose of insulting someone is to extract a negative reaction. They succeed when you get agitated, your feelings are hurt, and your lowered to their level. Lots of insults were shouted at Jesus while he was hanging on the cross, he didn't defend himself, but prayed; 'Forgive them Father, for they are idiots'.
Prayer is just a fancy word for talking to yourself. So........ |
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Post by Dan on Nov 23, 2024 21:06:33 GMT -5
Prayer is just a fancy word for talking to yourself. So........
You may be right, but some people feel its a need or necessity to give it a try anyhow.
Also consider that an answered prayer may very well be an indication that someone is listening and that you aren't talking to yourself. Give it a try sometime, you might be surprised. Pray for belief if you can't conjure up any on your own.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 23, 2024 22:53:56 GMT -5
Yes they are nameless people, but I personally feel the need to defend someone being attacked without cause, or defend against someone trying to ram down science fiction as fact, and threatening people who do not believe it. That is something innate in most people to do that. I am on a few forums, and a moderator on a music forum, and have been for decades. I have never seen the likes of what we have witnessed from Nathan. He just sucks so much oxygen out of the room. |
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Post by guest8 on Nov 23, 2024 23:14:15 GMT -5
Yes they are nameless people, but I personally feel the need to defend someone being attacked without cause, or defend against someone trying to ram down science fiction as fact, and threatening people who do not believe it. That is something innate in most people to do that. I am on a few forums, and a moderator on a music forum, and have been for decades. I have never seen the likes of what we have witnessed from Nathan. He just sucks so much oxygen out of the room. Yes I have never known such talk protruding out of any christian mouth in all my days. I know every church has its oddballs but this takes some beating for the fellowship. On a personal level, time and time again, I felt he was so out of synch with my mother's profession within the fellowship. This sucked my oxygen at times. Undoubtedly, she would of rolled her eyes & probably said he's a poor chap. |
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Post by tom1955 on Nov 23, 2024 23:17:53 GMT -5
Just my 2 cents, Nate is krakers,unfortunately!!!
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Post by Pragmatic on Nov 23, 2024 23:58:12 GMT -5
Just my 2 cents, Nate is krakers,unfortunately!!! 100%. Two people who have degrees in psychology have seen his posts and felt that he was certifiable.
I really hope they don't let him back on.
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Post by Annan on Nov 24, 2024 6:40:07 GMT -5
So assuming some guy damned your wife to hell -- you'd be satisfied with just advising her to be humble and be unfazed? Absolutely.. The purpose for someone threatening hellfire would be satisfied when they got the negative reaction they expected.. By remaining unfazed, your lending no credibility to the allegation. If someone honks at you in traffic and is yelling "You s.o.b." out their window, waving back at them as though they were a friend is the best reaction. Getting upset would fulfill their purpose by allowing them to transfer their anger to you, while a friendly wave would leave their anger with them, maybe even intensify it by frustrating them?
I never understood how an atheist could be insulted by someone telling them they're going to hell? Why give someone the satisfaction of upsetting you by telling you that your going to a place that you don't even believe exist? Only pride would put you in a defensive mode. When someone calls you a name and you respond by returning the favor, they've won. The whole purpose of insulting someone is to extract a negative reaction. They succeed when you get agitated, your feelings are hurt, and your lowered to their level. Lots of insults were shouted at Jesus while he was hanging on the cross, he didn't defend himself, but prayed; 'Forgive them Father, for they are idiots'.
You post made me laugh, Dan. Just a few days ago I wasn't paying attention when the traffic light turned green. The person behind me laid on their horn. I looked back and waved. They pulled up beside me after we both made a right turn (two lanes) and kept laying on the horn. I kept waving. They kept laying on the horn. I rather thought it was funny. You must have a different bible then the one I read as I sure don't remember jesus asking his father to forgive the idiots. Just saying.  |
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Post by fixit on Nov 24, 2024 13:17:06 GMT -5
When forgiveness enables ongoing bad behaviour it's counter-productive.
A classic example is the forgiveness of sexual predators, enabling further ongoing abuse.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 24, 2024 13:41:05 GMT -5
When forgiveness enables ongoing bad behaviour it's counter-productive. A classic example is the forgiveness of sexual predators, enabling further ongoing abuse. It is not only the encouragement to forgive but the discouragement of going to the cops aboout sexual assault. That would ruin the "good reputation" of the church. |
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Post by Pragmatic on Nov 24, 2024 16:28:28 GMT -5
Yes....one victim was asked, "Are you going to file a police report? We'd rather that you didn't" Taking into account the power differential wedded to the Living Witness Doctrine and Exclusivity, it was tantamount to an order of "Do not report it to the police". It took another few years for it to be reported, and a lot of intervening trauma. The reputation of the church is in tatters because of the short sightedness of the overseers.
On the Nathan subject, it wasn't just the ludicrous beliefs destroying the site, but the vicious attacks on the people, rather than just a polite disagreement with them. He attacked the containers, not the contents. And the bombastic and arrogant way he put his beliefs as if facts, simply turned many good people away. People that otherwise would have had positive contributions to make.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 24, 2024 17:34:12 GMT -5
We were reading Romans 10 today and I saw this there.
Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
I'm sorry but with Nathan there is no gospel of peace, and no glad tidings of good things. He's all hell and damnation for everyone that doesn't believe as he does, even when it's clearly shown to him that what he says isn't in the Bible. He just needs to calm down and stop judging everyone according to his own beliefs.
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Post by Pragmatic on Nov 24, 2024 18:22:32 GMT -5
We were reading Romans 10 today and I saw this there. Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! I'm sorry but with Nathan there is no gospel of peace, and no glad tidings of good things. He's all hell and damnation for everyone that doesn't believe as he does, even when it's clearly shown to him that what he says isn't in the Bible. He just needs to calm down and stop judging everyone according to his own beliefs. As is common with Conspiracy Theorists, you can't sway their beliefs with science or fact, no matter how compelling the evidence is.
It is strange to think that there are still who believe the earth is flat, in spite of seeing the images from outer space.
It is easier to fool someone than convince them that they have been fooled.
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Post by Dan on Nov 25, 2024 0:28:13 GMT -5
Absolutely.. The purpose for someone threatening hellfire would be satisfied when they got the negative reaction they expected.. By remaining unfazed, your lending no credibility to the allegation. If someone honks at you in traffic and is yelling "You s.o.b." out their window, waving back at them as though they were a friend is the best reaction. Getting upset would fulfill their purpose by allowing them to transfer their anger to you, while a friendly wave would leave their anger with them, maybe even intensify it by frustrating them?
I never understood how an atheist could be insulted by someone telling them they're going to hell? Why give someone the satisfaction of upsetting you by telling you that your going to a place that you don't even believe exist? Only pride would put you in a defensive mode. When someone calls you a name and you respond by returning the favor, they've won. The whole purpose of insulting someone is to extract a negative reaction. They succeed when you get agitated, your feelings are hurt, and your lowered to their level. Lots of insults were shouted at Jesus while he was hanging on the cross, he didn't defend himself, but prayed; 'Forgive them Father, for they are idiots'.
You post made me laugh, Dan. Just a few days ago I wasn't paying attention when the traffic light turned green. The person behind me laid on their horn. I looked back and waved. They pulled up beside me after we both made a right turn (two lanes) and kept laying on the horn. I kept waving. They kept laying on the horn. I rather thought it was funny. You must have a different bible then the one I read as I sure don't remember jesus asking his father to forgive the idiots. Just saying.
They kept honking because it frustrated them when they couldn't transfer their anger to you... If you had flipped them the bird, it actually would have satisfied them because they would have succeeded in upsetting you. Reverse psychology works.
I edited it with a little slang; "They know not what they do" means the crowd was ignorant, and being ignorant makes you an idiot.
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Post by Dan on Nov 25, 2024 1:13:06 GMT -5
We were reading Romans 10 today and I saw this there. Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! I'm sorry but with Nathan there is no gospel of peace, and no glad tidings of good things. He's all hell and damnation for everyone that doesn't believe as he does, even when it's clearly shown to him that what he says isn't in the Bible. He just needs to calm down and stop judging everyone according to his own beliefs.
Giving people an ultimatum doesn't generally attract believers. But Nathan was generally responding to people who mocked and demeaned Christ, wherein the gospel of peace doesn't apply. The two edged sword isn't always a delightful message, there is a downside to rejecting Christ. That said, hell fire and brimstone responses don't generally motivate people to consider a belief, in fact it turns them off. I agree that 'believe as I believe' should never be the message, especially when it includes things that can't be biblically confirmed. Encouraging people to read what Christ taught without misinterpreting or misconstruing the simple gospel message is enough.
Flying to Florida tomorrow (Monday) for the holiday, so will be incommunicado for a few days.
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