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Post by fixit on Jun 4, 2024 15:43:39 GMT -5
Timothy Keller, John Piper, Nancy Guthrie. There are so many amazing Bible teachers out there. If you want to make a start on theology, listen to some of these preachers. No thanks!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 4, 2024 16:07:14 GMT -5
Timothy Keller, John Piper, Nancy Guthrie. There are so many amazing Bible teachers out there. If you want to make a start on theology, listen to some of these preachers. No thanks! Theology is the study of mythology. If mythology makes some people content then so be it.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 5, 2024 0:03:51 GMT -5
The decision to stay or leave should not be one that is made based on our own reasoning. We all need to be open to where God wants us to be. If God calls us out of the meetings then we need to obey that call and if God calls us to stay we need to accept that’s where He wants us to be. God is sovereign and we need to trust and obey His leadings for us individually. For myself God has called me to remain in the Sunday morning fellowship meetings where I can talk of the true gospel. God has graciously opened my eyes to His gospel of grace many years ago and I currently have many interactions with other Christians and attend other churches and conventions that teach the scripture faithfully. I can then share this with others in the meetings who don’t get to hear the gospel through the workers. I will keep doing this until God calls me out to another ministry. As Elizabeth said the workers do not preach the gospel of justification through the work of Christ, and sanctification through new life in Christ. John Piper gave a six point summary of the gospel as follows 1) God created us for his glory. “Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth, everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory” (Isaiah 43:6–7). God made all of us in his own image so that we would image forth, or reflect, his character and moral beauty. 2) Therefore every human should live for God’s glory. “Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31). The way to live for the glory of God is to love him (Matthew 22:37), trust him (Romans 4:20), be thankful to him (Psalm 50:23), obey him (Matthew 5:16), and treasure him above all things (Philippians 3:8; Matthew 10:37). When we do these things we image forth God’s glory. 3) Nevertheless, we have all sinned and fallen short of God’s glory. “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). “Although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him . . . and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images” (Romans 1:21–23). None of us has loved or trusted or thanked or obeyed or treasured God as we ought. 4) Therefore we all deserve eternal punishment. “The wages of sin is (eternal) death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23). Those who did not obey the Lord Jesus “will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thessalonians 1:9). “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matthew 25:46). 5) Yet, in his great mercy, God sent his only Son Jesus Christ into the world to provide for sinners the way of eternal life. “God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us” (Galatians 3:13). “Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God” (1 Peter 3:18). 6) Therefore eternal life is a free gift to all who will trust in Christ as Lord and Savior and supreme Treasure of their lives. “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9). “By grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast” (Ephesians 2:8–9). “I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me” (Galatians 2:20). “I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ” (Philippians 3:8). The workers need to start preaching this gospel for people to feel comfortable in continuing to stay in the group and participate in fellowship meetings Thanks so much for your post. Totally agree that we need to decide when and why God calls us to leave something, but disagree we should leave "reasoning" out of it. My exhaustive concordance shows that one of Jesus' most oft used phrases was "What do you think?". He says it often when he talks to his disciples. Romans 2 says we need to be "transformed by the renewing of our mind... so we can test and approve what God's will is". The Bible never dissuades thinking and reasoning. It does, however, tell us not to trust our own heart (ie emotions - the heart is deceitful above all things). We are to trust in the Lord (this means in His Word), rather than trusting in our feelings. I am always a little bit scared and highly sceptical when anyone who says "God told me....". This can be a coverall justification for anything and everything. I believe scripture exhorts us to make wise decisions based on the principles God gives us. This takes working through and thinking through issues alongside prayer. Hopefully this results in true conviction about the next best steps to take. I am excited that more in the fellowship these days are getting a much better handle on the true gospel, despite the lacking teachings of most workers. Though I was a little intrigued by your last statement. It has been my experience that many of the Friends start to feel uncomfortable with the gospel of grace being preached. I think many (most) are still far more comfortable with their status quo of being the few elect under "God's true ministers"? Perhaps this is the comfort that needs to be challenged? Am happy to be wrong on this score, but the majority of Friends I still know (extended family, etc), still completely reject any acceptance of "outside" Christians and churches and would be most uncomfortable if workers starting preaching a different message(?). Either way, I do pray that people like yourself will be instrumental in spreading the gospel from within!
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 5, 2024 3:08:25 GMT -5
I have said for a long time, that a worker saying, "It has been laid on my heart...." is actually a power trip, because they are employing a tactic of suggesting they have superior enlightenment. How is one supposed to argue what God laid on the worker's heart, even if it is bollocks?
Similarly the business of suggesting the other person does not have the Spirit. Another coverall for when the worker is doing another power play. An example I recall was a worker saying that someone should not have a Radio. The person started to justify, but was immediately shut down and told she lacked the right spirit. That person was my grandmother in her 90's at the time.
I am equally, if not even more so, comfortable fellow-shipping with members of other churches. I have no qualms about going to other churches either, and did so recently as a month ago. When I am in the Pacific Islands, I always go to church with the locals. A great experience.
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Post by menatwork on Jun 5, 2024 5:07:55 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply Elizabeth. It was trying to convey the thought that we need to be controlled more by God and not by our own thinking alone. I agree that God has given us a mind to think and reason and He works through our minds to bring about His purpose for our lives. I totally agree with not making decisions based on our feelings alone, but everything needs to be grounded in scripture.
I get the feeling that some of the friends (especially younger ones) are beginning to think and read more and starting to realise that what they have been taught by the workers is not the true gospel. The fellowship meetings provide a forum to encourage people to seek God’s truth for themselves through the study of the scripture.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 5, 2024 5:15:14 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply Elizabeth. It was trying to convey the thought that we need to be controlled more by God and not by our own thinking alone. I agree that God has given us a mind to think and reason and He works through our minds to bring about His purpose for our lives. I totally agree with not making decisions based on our feelings alone, but everything needs to be grounded in scripture. I get the feeling that some of the friends (especially younger ones) are beginning to think and read more and starting to realise that what they have been taught by the workers is not the true gospel. The fellowship meetings provide a forum to encourage people to seek God’s truth for themselves through the study of the scripture. That is exciting! So much more information readily available, coupled with recent disillusionments - this has all contributed, I guess.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 5, 2024 5:16:50 GMT -5
I have said for a long time, that a worker saying, "It has been laid on my heart...." is actually a power trip, because they are employing a tactic of suggesting they have superior enlightenment. How is one supposed to argue what God laid on the worker's heart, even if it is bollocks? Similarly the business of suggesting the other person does not have the Spirit. Another coverall for when the worker is doing another power play. An example I recall was a worker saying that someone should not have a Radio. The person started to justify, but was immediately shut down and told she lacked the right spirit. That person was my grandmother in her 90's at the time. I am equally, if not even more so, comfortable fellow-shipping with members of other churches. I have no qualms about going to other churches either, and did so recently as a month ago. When I am in the Pacific Islands, I always go to church with the locals. A great experience. That is great. Do you think you are an outlier in this regard, or is it becoming more common, some willing to attend other churches?
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Post by Annan on Jun 5, 2024 6:44:10 GMT -5
Do you think you are an outlier in this regard, or is it becoming more common, some willing to attend other churches? I have enjoyed your posts, Elizabeth. I remember my father having issues with other churches once he left the cult. I was a church secretary at the time, and he came to the church services where I worked and attended at the time. He enjoyed the message and the pastor. Eventually he started attending bible studies. He liked the ability to exchange ideas and thoughts. Being saved by grace was always a problem for him. I only hope he found peace in the end.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 5, 2024 16:23:59 GMT -5
I have said for a long time, that a worker saying, "It has been laid on my heart...." is actually a power trip, because they are employing a tactic of suggesting they have superior enlightenment. How is one supposed to argue what God laid on the worker's heart, even if it is bollocks? Similarly the business of suggesting the other person does not have the Spirit. Another coverall for when the worker is doing another power play. An example I recall was a worker saying that someone should not have a Radio. The person started to justify, but was immediately shut down and told she lacked the right spirit. That person was my grandmother in her 90's at the time. I am equally, if not even more so, comfortable fellow-shipping with members of other churches. I have no qualms about going to other churches either, and did so recently as a month ago. When I am in the Pacific Islands, I always go to church with the locals. A great experience. That is great. Do you think you are an outlier in this regard, or is it becoming more common, some willing to attend other churches? I have always been the iconoclast, ha ha
I am probably a bit of an outlier, but there are more starting to come to the realisation that it defies logic to think that any one church as a monopoly on virtue, or the pathway to heaven.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jun 5, 2024 17:57:31 GMT -5
That is great. Do you think you are an outlier in this regard, or is it becoming more common, some willing to attend other churches? I have always been the iconoclast, ha ha I am probably a bit of an outlier, but there are more starting to come to the realisation that it defies logic to think that any one church as a monopoly on virtue, or the pathway to heaven.
Yeah. If you do the math, being Christian-exclusive, makes little more sense than being 2X2-exclusive. I understood this very clearly before I ever left 2X2ism. I totally accept that not being Christian-exclusive, makes me a non-Christian in the eyes of many Christians. I am totally okay with that.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 5, 2024 18:17:08 GMT -5
As I have posted before, I have experienced the wonderment of creation in the desert in the Middle East with a Buddhists and a Muslims, and I guess you would call it fellowship as we all acknowledged the beauty of the universe.
I am with you, and I also acknowledge Hindi as well, having spent time with them in India also.
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Post by fixit on Jun 6, 2024 1:38:42 GMT -5
Mahatma Gandhi was on to it...
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
The Rev. Pattison tells the following story: One Sunday morning Gandhi decided that he would visit one of the Christian churches in Calcutta. Upon seeking entrance to the church sanctuary, he was stopped at the door by the ushers.
He was told he was not welcome, nor would he be permitted to attend this particular church as it was for high-caste Indians and whites only. He was neither high caste, nor was he white. Because of the rejection, the Mahatma turned his back on Christianity.
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Post by Admin on Jun 8, 2024 17:42:16 GMT -5
Do you think you are an outlier in this regard, or is it becoming more common, some willing to attend other churches? I have enjoyed your posts, Elizabeth. I remember my father having issues with other churches once he left the cult. I was a church secretary at the time, and he came to the church services where I worked and attended at the time. He enjoyed the message and the pastor. Eventually he started attending bible studies. He liked the ability to exchange ideas and thoughts. Being saved by grace was always a problem for him. I only hope he found peace in the end. Thanks Annan, interesting comment about your dad "Being saved by grace was always a problem for him." Seems that's a real problem for so many brought up hearing the 2x2 workers and their rules-based doctrine, certainly in Nth America. Whether they remain in the F&W fellowship or leave. Receiving something valuable "by grace" is totally foreign to the way we humanly think - how hard to accept something that we really want, and need, and value simply by the grace of the giver? John 1:16–17 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Jun 9, 2024 13:44:59 GMT -5
Here in Australia, many have left meetings recently over the breaches of trust by the workers. Others are planning on leaving. My own observations suggest most of these are in limbo. Again it's just my personal observations, but some at least don't feel comfortable or inclined to join another church. What is the experience of any on TMB who have left meetings and found a church they are happy with? It would be interesting to discuss what would need to change in the meetings for those leaving to feel confident to continue in Sunday fellowship meetings without leaving for another church. Sunday fellowship meetings seem valued, I've heard very few complaints (except for the false doctrine of exclusivity, which many of the older friends still adhere to). My observation again, that many younger friends have read their bibles and discovered that salvation by grace through faith in Christ is biblical, and worker teaching that is not in line with this is simply dissing other churches. Stay or leave is the question. If stay, what hope of finding right doctrine? Are there any younger workers who read their bibles and believe what's written there? I left in the mid 1990s and have belonged to another church since then. Yes, there are amazing churches out here. Churches that preach the gospel of grace, Christ crucified and risen. While I regularly attend the same church and am a member there, I also visit various other churches with friends and when on holidays. I don't like naming denominations because that is not the point. I have Christ, I have the gospel. I choose to worship where that Word is faithfully preached. My church is no better than any other church that preaches the truth. There is much more to church and life and theology than what the workers have to offer. They have missed the gospel altogether, continuing along the lines of "ministers without a home and meetings in the home". This is not the gospel! The gospel is justification through the work of Christ, and sanctification through new life in Christ. It is the whole covenantal story of God choosing a people for himself, and redeeming them. There is hardly ever a sermon I hear (in another church), where I am not blown away by the richness and depth of theology (true study of the whole covenantal story of the Bible), and am truly grieved that those still in the two-by-fellowship are missing out on all of it. Listen to some real sermons, by those of real learning, and you will start to get a glimmer of what I mean. Timothy Keller, John Piper, Nancy Guthrie. There are so many amazing Bible teachers out there. If you want to make a start on theology, listen to some of these preachers. Ask your own questions through the gotquestions.org website. No, there is no hope of finding right doctrine in the two-by-twos. Not until the day they openly declare "We got it wrong. Our Way is not the Way. Only Jesus is. The true Gospel is the good news of full salvation by grace, through faith, in Christ to all who believe on him" 1000% agree. The gospel of the friends and workers is what I call gospel plus which really ends up being a gospel minus. It’s very lacking to me. And if it’s lacking coming from the ministry, there aren’t enough friends that have the impetus to do anything substantial to really change it. I call that spiritual laziness and I think that’s something we are warned about in scripture.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Jun 9, 2024 13:46:56 GMT -5
I have enjoyed your posts, Elizabeth. I remember my father having issues with other churches once he left the cult. I was a church secretary at the time, and he came to the church services where I worked and attended at the time. He enjoyed the message and the pastor. Eventually he started attending bible studies. He liked the ability to exchange ideas and thoughts. Being saved by grace was always a problem for him. I only hope he found peace in the end. Thanks Annan, interesting comment about your dad "Being saved by grace was always a problem for him." Seems that's a real problem for so many brought up hearing the 2x2 workers and their rules-based doctrine, certainly in Nth America. Whether they remain in the F&W fellowship or leave. Receiving something valuable "by grace" is totally foreign to the way we humanly think - how hard to accept something that we really want, and need, and value simply by the grace of the giver? John 1:16–17 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.True grace is hard for some people to fathom let alone accept. When one does have full realization and acceptance it is literally a transformative experience.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 9, 2024 15:24:19 GMT -5
The recent Special meetings have proven a few things: 1) The workers lack of training in constructing a sermon, and Biblical knowledge, was on show. It is decades since I heard a well constructed theme and sermon, such as The churches in Revelations, or Romans 8 being expounded. 2) Their ignorance of Christian History was on show. 3) The arrogance of "One True Ministry", the "Kingdom" etc was plain for the enlightened to see. 4) Misinterpretation of Scripture occurred. For example: The example of a child in Jesus midst "Who should harm this child, better than a Millstone be hung around his neck etc) was construed somehow to mean that safety is guaranteed for a Child of God in his Kingdom. Pardon? Try telling that to a CSA victim. 5) Attendance numbers were down, and it was obvious by the average age that attrition is going to play a large part in the church's continued demise. 6) You'd think that a closed group meeting like Specials would be the ideal time to address issues in the church, issue public apologies for wrongs, mis-steps, and even those outside of our country's control. 7) Would you join a church that you did not know who the head(s) were? Why not use the Special meeting to explain the church hierarchy? After all, these men are very powerful in the context of affecting people's lives.
8) Those that attended Special Meeting in the South Island, and in the top of the North Island, have expressed the same sentiments to me also.
9) Those that know me, know that I have an irreverent and irrepressible sense of humour. However, as much as I appreciate Ted Harris's satirical sermons, I am not one to mock or take the mickey out of inoffensive and harmless people who have simply known no different.
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Post by help on Jun 10, 2024 1:02:10 GMT -5
The problem is an organisation, that is not an organisation will never have the ability to organise itself. Without a proper documented structure the 2x2's will always remain disorderly and confused. In the Army this situation was referred to as SNAFU. SNAFU or snafu is an acronym that the United States Military first used. Civilians now use it as well. It stands for Situation Normaln All Fouled Up.
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Post by Admin on Jun 16, 2024 17:41:28 GMT -5
This video which seeks for the root of the problem may be helpful, especially in North America. Thanks for the link, its so sad that they don't really seem to get it and are clueless. The bigger problem is with what they believe, its requires forgiveness over prosecution. As Elizabeth's book title says, " Legacy of the Living Witness Doctrine" is the deeper rooted problem that facilitated the abused. My sister sent me a video from an architect that dissects the problem from the beginning, don't know if its been posted before? youtu.be/LKht9UHP-Xs?si=VrsTGIaH0ncK_y_d
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Post by passingby on Aug 27, 2024 15:57:24 GMT -5
Over the past months, TMB has had numerous requests for membership from long-standing members of the F&W church with comments along the lines that their faith has been challenged in recent days. This thread is to try and provide some Christian support, love and wisdom for such brothers and sisters in Christ. Conscious of the many atheist ex-members of the 2x2 group, we ask respectfully that this thread be left for believers in Christ. There is a separate section of TMB for those atheist ex-members who no longer have a belief in God. Thanks. For those who retain belief in God, it seems imperative to take to heart the simple lesson - we are saved by the grace of God through our faith in Christ and Christ alone, separate totally from any method or system which too readily takes on man's thinking and ideas. Methods and systems of fellowship and worship may be extremely useful and helpful, but they are not the essential. Reply The gospel meetings were, and as far as I know still are, advertised as NON DENOMINATIONAL We are taught that we stand as individuals before God. To quit fellowship with friends or workers because of what someone else does is denominational, group, put them in a restricted box, thinking.
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