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Post by SharonArnold on Dec 15, 2023 16:28:10 GMT -5
This is amazing courage.
As I watched this, I felt proud. Absurdly proud. Undeservedly proud. Initially, (with a self-deprecating chuckle), I wondered if it was because we had faith roots in common. But when I thought of it for a minute, I realized it is because we are fellow members of the human race, on the same planet, at the same time.
The courage is THAT big.
Holy cow.
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Post by snow on Dec 16, 2023 14:20:31 GMT -5
I have listened to all of his episodes except the last couple. I wish the rest of the friends that are telling the workers they don't want any changes would listen to Jonathan. I do not understand how anyone can be so scared of what the workers supposedly can do to them if they don't fall into line. Actually, I guess I can, because when I was 12 and I said I wouldn't profess anymore or worship the Christian God, I was sure I was going to hell. I had heard that from the time I could make sense of life. The workers and the friends all told me over and over that my non-professing relatives, whom I loved dearly, were going to hell because they didn't make their choice through the workers. So when I quit I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt where I was going. Yet I did it. If a 12 year old can why can't these adults stand up to the workers. If doing the right thing is going to send you to hell, maybe there is something wrong with what you've been told. If the workers kick you out or make your lives miserable by spreading lies about you because you stood up for the victims, then maybe what you've been told isn't right. People are so afraid of going to hell if they cross the workers. That is a hideous place/position to be in. But we hear it from people who believe that the 'way' is the only ticket to heaven. Shut up, do as you're told, don't question the workers, and even if they are wrong respect their wishes anyway. More than one worker has written that in a letter and even spoke it from the platform. That should be a huge red flag that something is not right. I love the courage this man and many others have who are speaking out even though they are very likely getting negative feedback and some cases shunning and lies being told about them. It is so ingrained in the friends to believe their church is the only right way, so when I see them speaking out even with the threat of excommunication, I see such courage, integrity and honesty. You're the best! The professing friends are the ones that can make the more lasting changes from within. They can protect the children in their meetings and in their homes. Every friend that is doing this is possibly saving a young child from being raped and their lives forever a place of trauma. Thank you to the friends that are keeping the children safe.
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Post by bfvernon on Dec 16, 2023 16:54:14 GMT -5
Absolutely true, Wally. I'm pretty sure that this young man will leave, either voluntarily or by being pushed. Everything he says is true. And he hasn't even started on their incorrect theology yet! (Of course, the false doctrine is at the heart of the enabling of predators, but there's still a lot more to unpack)
I will never forget the awful disconnection from everything I believed in when I left/was pushed out. The psychological abuse was HUGE. No one has ever reached out to me, asked if I was ok. They were all happy to see the last of me and my children. I'm thankful now because God has opened up such a huge place of blessing for me. I did not know that this existed, despite 40 years of being in every meeting, convention, etc, etc. How dare they claim to have an exclusive hold on "truth" and treat people the way they do is beyond comprehension.
May God bless you all richly today and in this season when we rejoice in the arrival of Emmanuel.
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Post by Pragmatic on Dec 16, 2023 20:07:27 GMT -5
You might notice that Jonathan only refers to it as This Fellowship. I saw one Podcast where he explained that he refuses to call it The Truth, because it isn't, and that is why he refers to it as the Fellowship.
One day the knives might be out for him, and they're possibly being sharpened now, but I suspect they would wait for a time when he has less of a profile.
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Post by SharonArnold on Dec 18, 2023 16:43:43 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that this young man will leave, either voluntarily or by being pushed. Everything he says is true. I think this is likely. I do not know Jon personally, but I have done a little research, and if he is not forced to leave (I am not sure they dare at this point, as pointed out by others), he WILL leave on his own. The work that he is doing is equipping him for a far larger world than that of the 2X2's. However it all unfolds, there are more people than he could possibly imagine cheering him on, and not to any particular outcome. For the last several months, I have been slowly realizing/acknowledging that we are full-on looking into the face of Evil, demonic forces, if you will. (Fit it into your world view, however you can.) Evil is what it is. Ephesians 6:12 King James Version 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. I have led a very sheltered, very fortunate life, for the most part. In Jon's latest podcast with Laura Glantz, she tells us of her first encounter with a father figure in her life. I think back on my earliest memories, and pretty much all of the men I can think of who had access to me were father figures to me. Fortunate? Yep. I have spent a large part of my life being pretty naive. I have actually spent some years questioning if Evil really existed, or if it was better understood as the absence of Good. Such a thought process/experiment seems beyond naive to me at this point. One thing this past summer that has helped me grapple with Evil, as I never have before, is the movie "The Sound of Freedom". (Also all the interviews with Jim Caviezel, Tim Ballard, Jordan Peterson, etc pertaining to this.) Ignore the politics, watch the movie. You won't be sorry. Two things I now know for sure that I did not know pre-Bruergate: 1) The 2X2 system was created by Workers for Workers. 2) The 2X2 system seems almost perfectly designed for bad actors and predators of all types, particularly those of children. (Now, this does not blind me to all the good within 2X2ism (which I have been a recipient of), nor of all the good people within it, nor how it helped some people (like my grandparents) to see life anew in a very constructive way.) "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche I think this may encapsulate some people's instinctive tendency to ostrich and to look away from this kind of stuff. I think it may help explain how I have been for much of my life. But there is this: "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." When you gaze voluntarily (not everyone has this privilege) into the abyss, with courage, and forthrightness, and with a lifetime of experience, you can potentially do a lot of good, and enrich yourself and this world beyond measure.
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Post by snow on Dec 18, 2023 17:59:58 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that this young man will leave, either voluntarily or by being pushed. Everything he says is true. I think this is likely. I do not know Jon personally, but I have done a little research, and if he is not forced to leave (I am not sure they dare at this point, as pointed out by others), he WILL leave on his own. The work that he is doing is equipping him for a far larger world than that of the 2X2's. However it all unfolds, there are more people than he could possibly imagine cheering him on, and not to any particular outcome. For the last several months, I have been slowly realizing/acknowledging that we are full-on looking into the face of Evil, demonic forces, if you will. (Fit it into your world view, however you can.) Evil is what it is. Ephesians 6:12 King James Version 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. I have led a very sheltered, very fortunate life, for the most part. In Jon's latest podcast with Laura Glantz, she tells us of her first encounter with a father figure in her life. I think back on my earliest memories, and pretty much all of the men I can think of who had access to me were father figures to me. Fortunate? Yep. I have spent a large part of my life being pretty naive. I have actually spent some years questioning if Evil really existed, or if it was better understood as the absence of Good. Such a thought process/experiment seems beyond naive to me at this point. One thing this past summer that has helped me grapple with Evil, as I never have before, is the movie "The Sound of Freedom". (Also all the interviews with Jim Caviezel, Tim Ballard, Jordan Peterson, etc pertaining to this.) Ignore the politics, watch the movie. You won't be sorry. Two things I now know for sure that I did not know pre-Bruergate: 1) The 2X2 system was created by Workers for Workers. 2) The 2X2 system seems almost perfectly designed for bad actors and predators of all types, particularly those of children. (Now, this does not blind me to all the good within 2X2ism (which I have been a recipient of), nor of all the good people within it, nor how it helped some people (like my grandparents) to see life anew in a very constructive way.) "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche I think this may encapsulate some people's instinctive tendency to ostrich and to look away from this kind of stuff. I think it may help explain how I have been for much of my life. But there is this: "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." When you gaze voluntarily (not everyone has this privilege) into the abyss, with courage, and forthrightness, and with a lifetime of experience, you can potentially do a lot of good, and enrich yourself and this world beyond measure. It's already started. People asking how he could say such terrible things when he doesn't know everything. We don't need to know everything in order to know that things are very wrong in the leadership of this fellowship. 675 people reported and/or charged and 40% of them are workers. That's huge.
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Post by Pragmatic on Dec 18, 2023 19:15:08 GMT -5
I think this is likely. I do not know Jon personally, but I have done a little research, and if he is not forced to leave (I am not sure they dare at this point, as pointed out by others), he WILL leave on his own. The work that he is doing is equipping him for a far larger world than that of the 2X2's. However it all unfolds, there are more people than he could possibly imagine cheering him on, and not to any particular outcome. For the last several months, I have been slowly realizing/acknowledging that we are full-on looking into the face of Evil, demonic forces, if you will. (Fit it into your world view, however you can.) Evil is what it is. Ephesians 6:12 King James Version 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. I have led a very sheltered, very fortunate life, for the most part. In Jon's latest podcast with Laura Glantz, she tells us of her first encounter with a father figure in her life. I think back on my earliest memories, and pretty much all of the men I can think of who had access to me were father figures to me. Fortunate? Yep. I have spent a large part of my life being pretty naive. I have actually spent some years questioning if Evil really existed, or if it was better understood as the absence of Good. Such a thought process/experiment seems beyond naive to me at this point. One thing this past summer that has helped me grapple with Evil, as I never have before, is the movie "The Sound of Freedom". (Also all the interviews with Jim Caviezel, Tim Ballard, Jordan Peterson, etc pertaining to this.) Ignore the politics, watch the movie. You won't be sorry. Two things I now know for sure that I did not know pre-Bruergate: 1) The 2X2 system was created by Workers for Workers. 2) The 2X2 system seems almost perfectly designed for bad actors and predators of all types, particularly those of children. (Now, this does not blind me to all the good within 2X2ism (which I have been a recipient of), nor of all the good people within it, nor how it helped some people (like my grandparents) to see life anew in a very constructive way.) "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche I think this may encapsulate some people's instinctive tendency to ostrich and to look away from this kind of stuff. I think it may help explain how I have been for much of my life. But there is this: "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." When you gaze voluntarily (not everyone has this privilege) into the abyss, with courage, and forthrightness, and with a lifetime of experience, you can potentially do a lot of good, and enrich yourself and this world beyond measure. It's already started. People asking how he could say such terrible things when he doesn't know everything. We don't need to know everything in order to know that things are very wrong in the leadership of this fellowship. 675 people reported and/or charged and 40% of them are workers. That's huge. He probably knows an awful lot more than those who criticise him. He went so far as to name the overseers and some of their mis-deeds. There are really only two questions. Is he right, or is he wrong?
Sometimes, of course, we can be right at the wrong time, or right without the right attitude. Neither is the case here.
I bet not one of his critics have interviewed a victim, or been involved in apprehending a perpetrator. Why is it that the victims want to talk to him? He is doing a great job. Like me, he likes the interactive style of the Sunday morning meeting, but in his part of the world he does not like what the church has become.
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tulip2
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Post by tulip2 on Dec 19, 2023 6:34:39 GMT -5
What was the 'Worldwide Congress' meeting of senior workers and overseers in Singapore? When did it happen? Was it held in secret or well publicised? Anybody know anything about what was on the agenda? Who attended from Australia?
And, did they travel First or Business Class I wonder?
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Post by Pragmatic on Dec 19, 2023 13:41:09 GMT -5
I would like to know that as well. Apparently our NZ Overseer and Alan Mitchell from Oz also went to India, supposedly to try and help resolve issues there, but had no success. I have a real problem with workers traveling the world on some poor widow's last mite, and estates left to the work, or wealthy families currying favour.
I agree that sometimes it's necessary, but I am sure that in many cases a Zoom call would suffice. Obviously international convention visits are necessary for the purpose of avoiding silos being created, but if it's good enough for the corporate world to heavily reduce shoulder rubbing for technology, then it's good enough for the church, in my opinion.
We had an instance under a previous overseer here in NZ where the younger companion took the Overseer to the Airport to catch an international flight, and he had no idea where the overseer was going, for how long, or why. It was all secretive. The younger companion didn't last long after that. It's just a junket.
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Post by fixit on Dec 19, 2023 14:07:10 GMT -5
He probably knows an awful lot more than those who criticise him. He went so far as to name the overseers and some of their mis-deeds. There are really only two questions. Is he right, or is he wrong? Sometimes, of course, we can be right at the wrong time, or right without the right attitude. Neither is the case here. I bet not one of his critics have interviewed a victim, or been involved in apprehending a perpetrator. Why is it that the victims want to talk to him? He is doing a great job. Like me, he likes the interactive style of the Sunday morning meeting, but in his part of the world he does not like what the church has become.
Jon made it very clear that he could be wrong, and he is very open to being corrected on anything he says. There's a downside to the practice of parachuting in overseers who are unknown to the people they are ruling. For that to work, the management system has to be trusted and it no longer is. It would help to restore trust if the top layers were to be disbanded i.e. the overseers of overseers. Matthew 20:25 But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. 26 It will not be so among you, but whoever wishes to be great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you must be your slave, 28 just as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve and to give his life a ransom for many.”
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Post by fixit on Dec 19, 2023 20:47:35 GMT -5
I agree that sometimes it's necessary, but I am sure that in many cases a Zoom call would suffice. Obviously international convention visits are necessary for the purpose of avoiding silos being created, but if it's good enough for the corporate world to heavily reduce shoulder rubbing for technology, then it's good enough for the church, in my opinion. Some overseers want to create silos to lessen the risk...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2023 21:38:02 GMT -5
I would like to know that as well. Apparently our NZ Overseer and Alan Mitchell from Oz also went to India, supposedly to try and help resolve issues there, but had no success. I have a real problem with workers traveling the world on some poor widow's last mite, and estates left to the work, or wealthy families currying favour.
I agree that sometimes it's necessary, but I am sure that in many cases a Zoom call would suffice. Obviously international convention visits are necessary for the purpose of avoiding silos being created, but if it's good enough for the corporate world to heavily reduce shoulder rubbing for technology, then it's good enough for the church, in my opinion.
We had an instance under a previous overseer here in NZ where the younger companion took the Overseer to the Airport to catch an international flight, and he had no idea where the overseer was going, for how long, or why. It was all secretive. The younger companion didn't last long after that. It's just a junket.
Paul used more than a few mites traveling around the med...
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Dec 19, 2023 22:27:11 GMT -5
I would like to know that as well. Apparently our NZ Overseer and Alan Mitchell from Oz also went to India, supposedly to try and help resolve issues there, but had no success. I have a real problem with workers traveling the world on some poor widow's last mite, and estates left to the work, or wealthy families currying favour.
I agree that sometimes it's necessary, but I am sure that in many cases a Zoom call would suffice. Obviously international convention visits are necessary for the purpose of avoiding silos being created, but if it's good enough for the corporate world to heavily reduce shoulder rubbing for technology, then it's good enough for the church, in my opinion.
We had an instance under a previous overseer here in NZ where the younger companion took the Overseer to the Airport to catch an international flight, and he had no idea where the overseer was going, for how long, or why. It was all secretive. The younger companion didn't last long after that. It's just a junket.
The workers in India were on a rort. All they were doing was transferring christians from one sect to another. A bit like playing musical chairs. There were very few missions focusing on the other religions and virtually no one from other religions joining the 2x2 cult. I also have to wonder, because of what has come to light after the male doll Dean Bruer was exposed, how many of these workers sent to preach the "gospel" in other lands had committed some indiscretion back in their home country and were being sent elsewhere to protect the reputation of the cult.
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Post by haggard on Dec 19, 2023 23:52:41 GMT -5
I would like to know that as well. Apparently our NZ Overseer and Alan Mitchell from Oz also went to India, supposedly to try and help resolve issues there, but had no success. I have a real problem with workers traveling the world on some poor widow's last mite, and estates left to the work, or wealthy families currying favour.
I agree that sometimes it's necessary, but I am sure that in many cases a Zoom call would suffice. Obviously international convention visits are necessary for the purpose of avoiding silos being created, but if it's good enough for the corporate world to heavily reduce shoulder rubbing for technology, then it's good enough for the church, in my opinion.
We had an instance under a previous overseer here in NZ where the younger companion took the Overseer to the Airport to catch an international flight, and he had no idea where the overseer was going, for how long, or why. It was all secretive. The younger companion didn't last long after that. It's just a junket.
Paul used more than a few mites traveling around the med... only you would know ...Wally
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Post by Pragmatic on Dec 20, 2023 2:26:20 GMT -5
I would like to know that as well. Apparently our NZ Overseer and Alan Mitchell from Oz also went to India, supposedly to try and help resolve issues there, but had no success. I have a real problem with workers traveling the world on some poor widow's last mite, and estates left to the work, or wealthy families currying favour.
I agree that sometimes it's necessary, but I am sure that in many cases a Zoom call would suffice. Obviously international convention visits are necessary for the purpose of avoiding silos being created, but if it's good enough for the corporate world to heavily reduce shoulder rubbing for technology, then it's good enough for the church, in my opinion.
We had an instance under a previous overseer here in NZ where the younger companion took the Overseer to the Airport to catch an international flight, and he had no idea where the overseer was going, for how long, or why. It was all secretive. The younger companion didn't last long after that. It's just a junket.
Paul used more than a few mites traveling around the med... But Paul was not a 20th or 21st century worker. He also worked when needed. His calling was something quite different. In my opinion.
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tulip2
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Post by tulip2 on Dec 20, 2023 5:16:15 GMT -5
What was the 'Worldwide Congress' meeting of senior workers and overseers in Singapore? When did it happen? Was it held in secret or well publicised? Anybody know anything about what was on the agenda? Who attended from Australia? And, did they travel First or Business Class I wonder? Seems nobody from Australia who posts on here knows anything about the Singapore World Congress of overseers. Which I guess answers one of my questions - it was a secret meeting, certainly not widely publicised. And we can only guess at what the agenda of such a secret meeting might have been, and of what discussions and decisions these guys came up with. Is Alan Mitchell now the head overseer in charge of Australia? Pity help us.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2023 10:23:35 GMT -5
Paul used more than a few mites traveling around the med... But Paul was not a 20th or 21st century worker. He also worked when needed. His calling was something quite different. In my opinion. I don't think the time period matters, its what is being done not when its being done. Paul was in no way a full-time job for income worker, so some of it was on the laity's mite beyond a shadow of a doubt...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2023 10:26:11 GMT -5
Paul used more than a few mites traveling around the med... only you would know ...Wally You think I'm using 2x2 mites to travel? You couldn't be more stupid...
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Post by haggard on Dec 20, 2023 13:57:11 GMT -5
only you would know ...Wally You think I'm using 2x2 mites to travel? You couldn't be more stupid
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Post by haggard on Dec 20, 2023 14:01:34 GMT -5
Naw...Wally lm just giving you credit for the immense knowledge and insight you have of something that supposedly happened 2000 years ago..the lord has truly blessed you...
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Post by snow on Dec 20, 2023 14:29:38 GMT -5
I would like to know that as well. Apparently our NZ Overseer and Alan Mitchell from Oz also went to India, supposedly to try and help resolve issues there, but had no success. I have a real problem with workers traveling the world on some poor widow's last mite, and estates left to the work, or wealthy families currying favour.
I agree that sometimes it's necessary, but I am sure that in many cases a Zoom call would suffice. Obviously international convention visits are necessary for the purpose of avoiding silos being created, but if it's good enough for the corporate world to heavily reduce shoulder rubbing for technology, then it's good enough for the church, in my opinion.
We had an instance under a previous overseer here in NZ where the younger companion took the Overseer to the Airport to catch an international flight, and he had no idea where the overseer was going, for how long, or why. It was all secretive. The younger companion didn't last long after that. It's just a junket. Paul used more than a few mites traveling around the med... He paid his own way though. He was a merchant while he was travelling. Tents.
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Post by Mary on Dec 20, 2023 16:26:01 GMT -5
Paul used more than a few mites traveling around the med... He paid his own way though. He was a merchant while he was travelling. Tents. Yes, and Paul also said if you don't work you shouldn't eat. He also said, 2 Thessalonians 3:8 & 10 – nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2023 18:02:13 GMT -5
Paul used more than a few mites traveling around the med... He paid his own way though. He was a merchant while he was travelling. Tents. I doubt seriously he didn't use mites from the saints then, he even commented that the servant is worthy of their hire when talking about tithes...
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Post by Mary on Dec 20, 2023 18:25:57 GMT -5
He paid his own way though. He was a merchant while he was travelling. Tents. I doubt seriously he didn't use mites from the saints then, he even commented that the servant is worthy of their hire when talking about tithes... Reminding you of my post above yours. Paul said if you don't work you shouldn't eat. He also said, 2 Thessalonians 3:8 & 10 – nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2023 20:01:58 GMT -5
I doubt seriously he didn't use mites from the saints then, he even commented that the servant is worthy of their hire when talking about tithes... Reminding you of my post above yours. Paul said if you don't work you shouldn't eat. He also said, 2 Thessalonians 3:8 & 10 – nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. There is no proof that was 365 days a yr...or even more than a few days or anywhere else......
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Post by Mary on Dec 20, 2023 20:51:52 GMT -5
Reminding you of my post above yours. Paul said if you don't work you shouldn't eat. He also said, 2 Thessalonians 3:8 & 10 – nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. There is no proof that was 365 days a yr...or even more than a few days or anywhere else...... Certainly sounds like you shouldn't eat unless you work and they worked night and day so not to be a burden on anyone, means just that to most people. Doesn't sound just a few days to me or to most people.
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Post by xna on Dec 20, 2023 21:51:22 GMT -5
There is no proof that was 365 days a yr...or even more than a few days or anywhere else...... Certainly sounds like you shouldn't eat unless you work and they worked night and day so not to be a burden on anyone, means just that to most people. Doesn't sound just a few days to me or to most people. The last time I was in a gospel meeting was 50+ years ago. On this subject the workers preached referencing Luke 10:7 & John 10:11-13 Luke 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.John 10:11-13 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.They preached, the wages for preaching the gospel is food and drink; "eating and drinking such things as they give".
They preached, false preacher preach for money, and are hirelings, as described in John (above).
What they did not preach on was the last sentence in Luke 10:7 "Go not from house to house."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2023 3:04:08 GMT -5
There is no proof that was 365 days a yr...or even more than a few days or anywhere else...... Certainly sounds like you shouldn't eat unless you work and they worked night and day so not to be a burden on anyone, means just that to most people. Doesn't sound just a few days to me or to most people. I'm addressing the Paul always worked part. There is no proof Paul worked 365 waiting tables or making tents while preaching....
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