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Post by matisse on Oct 9, 2023 5:35:56 GMT -5
xna these non-young earth fundies you are mentioning are a rounding error. Not worth talking about. Do the simple maths, mate. I don't need to do it for you. You are wasting everyone's time. Please speak for yourself. |
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Post by christiansburg on Oct 9, 2023 6:49:26 GMT -5
Thank goodness for the Geneva Bible which corrected some of the corruption of Latin Vulgate Bible. Seems like that had come mostly from Catholicism. I've never heard of that Bible, I have the KJV and an English version of the Aramaic but I've never heard of that. Is it very different? . Lots of reading to this but it is worth the study. I think it was commissioned in the 4th century. |
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Post by xna on Oct 9, 2023 8:13:20 GMT -5
True, you can't literally demonstrate that an ancient figure in history truly existed, but the life of Christ was witnessed and recorded. There are some true stories and good teachings in the bible. But the question of whether there were eyewitnesses who saw Jesus during his lifetime is a matter of "religious belief and historical interpretation". From a historical perspective, there are no contemporary non-Christian sources from the time of Jesus that specifically mention him. Now doesn't that seem strange? And what about doubting Thomas. He would have seen 37 or more miracles like; Jesus walking on water, Jesus restoring sight, Jesus feeding 5,000 out of the thin air, Jesus controlling the weather, Jesus raising people from the dead, etc. It's hard to believe someone who really saw all this would continue to think Jesus couldn't himself rise from the dead. If you suspend your indoctrination, then some of these stories don't pass the smell test. There is evidence of certain truths recorded in the bible. There is historical evidence that many of the characters existed, including Caiaphas & Pilate. Archaeological excavations have proven that most of the cities and sights also existed. Most convincingly to me is the prophetic evidence. So while its accepted by faith, its not blind faith. This is true. Many books in the fiction section of a book store have real places and characters between their covers, but that doesn't mean they should be in the non-fictions section. Science can only observe what's physical, if one is content that nothing else exist, that might suffice. I enjoy reading books in the non-fiction section, and many other things that are imagined. My point is that no testimony, witness, or evidence will persuade a person who has chosen not to believe. If one starts out with a conclusion first everything thing they read in the bible is true, they will believe all in the bible is true. Conversely if one starts out with the conclusion the bible is all fiction, then after reading the bible they won't believe a word of it. Both of these approaches are delusional. I think it's best to look at the bible like everything else you do in life, using a little skepticism. With religion many are indoctrinated from their very early childhood, and these ideas are carried with them, left unexamined often for all their life. It's not just Christianity that works this way it's culture, tradition, and other religions. These things are believed simply because they have been asserted repeatedly and repetition has been accepted as a substitute for evidence. |
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Post by xna on Oct 9, 2023 8:16:41 GMT -5
] can prove that the shroud of Turin is fake right now, from the Bible! The turin shroud comes in one piece, but it says in the Bible that the head of Jesus was covered separately to his body. John 20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, 20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. Good catch. |
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Post by snow on Oct 9, 2023 14:02:52 GMT -5
xna here is something you can do before posting links which you think support your conjectures - click on the link and read the article in full carefully. In this particular case with your creationist link, notice which countries are included in the 24 country poll - the world's largest muslim states. Does that sound like a relevant poll to use when determining what % of Christians are fundamentalists?
That's why i said you strawman and red herring. It's pointless to deal with people like this. snow a few days ago posted a link claiming that a Christian vandalized a museum in Israel due to his religious nuttiness, but as snow hadn't actually read the article before posting, she neglected to notice that the vandal was an american jew. It's just embarrassing.
I never posted that article. |
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Post by snow on Oct 9, 2023 14:10:50 GMT -5
That's how it's become for me too over the years. Demonstrably true is important for me to decide what I can trust. Beliefs can be comforting only if you can believe them to be true. Once I saw how unlikely it was that what I grown up being taught to be true was, there was no going back. It could no longer bring me comfort because it was no longer 'demonstrably true' for me. I just can't understand how people can't see that nature itself shows us that God is true? It's so complex that there has to be a greater mind behind it all. Taking away all religion, nature itself shows me God is there. I see him everywhere. For me it's not God everywhere, it's nature that has evolved and it's truly great, in that I agree. There are so many creation stories. The Hebrew creation story was taken in part from the Babylonians. So that's why I don't see it as a God because I would then have to choose which creation story was accurate and which God was the right one. I do agree that what we see in nature is very beautiful but it's also just the culmination of what this universe has as building blocks to work with. I have great respect for you Maryhig and we just have different ways of looking at it is all. |
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Post by intelchips on Oct 9, 2023 15:42:37 GMT -5
I just can't understand how people can't see that nature itself shows us that God is true? It's so complex that there has to be a greater mind behind it all. Taking away all religion, nature itself shows me God is there. I see him everywhere. For me it's not God everywhere, it's nature that has evolved and it's truly great, in that I agree. There are so many creation stories. The Hebrew creation story was taken in part from the Babylonians. So that's why I don't see it as a God because I would then have to choose which creation story was accurate and which God was the right one. I do agree that what we see in nature is very beautiful but it's also just the culmination of what this universe has as building blocks to work with. I have great respect for you Maryhig and we just have different ways of looking at it is all. And then there is this: I respect Mary's perspective, but I would like to present an alternative viewpoint that argues against the idea that nature alone demonstrates the existence of God. While nature is awe-inspiring and complex, it does not necessarily provide conclusive evidence for the existence of a divine creator. Here are some points to consider: Naturalistic Explanations: Many aspects of nature that may seem complex and intricate at first can often be explained through natural processes and scientific principles. Science has made significant progress in understanding the origins and development of the natural world without invoking the need for a supernatural creator. Argument from Ignorance: Assuming that complexity in nature necessitates a creator can be seen as an argument from ignorance, meaning that just because we do not fully understand something does not mean it must be the work of a higher power. Throughout history, humans have attributed natural phenomena to gods or deities, only to later discover natural explanations. Diverse Religious Beliefs: Different cultures and religions around the world have their own interpretations of the divine and their own creation stories. Nature alone does not point to a specific religious conception of God, and it is important to recognize that people from various religious backgrounds interpret the natural world differently. Natural Suffering: Nature also contains elements of suffering, such as natural disasters, diseases, and the struggle for survival. These aspects of the natural world raise questions about the nature of God, such as why a benevolent deity would allow such suffering to exist. Alternatives to Theism: There are philosophical and atheistic worldviews that provide alternative explanations for the existence of the universe and the complexity of nature. These perspectives suggest that natural phenomena can be understood without resorting to the concept of a god. Subjectivity: Seeing God in nature can be a subjective experience. What appears as evidence for God to one person may not have the same effect on another. Subjective experiences alone are not sufficient to establish the existence of a deity. Thus, while it is understandable that many people find a sense of wonder and spirituality in the complexity of nature, it is important to recognize that there are alternative explanations and perspectives that do not rely on the existence of God. Belief in a divine creator is a deeply personal and philosophical matter, and different individuals may arrive at different conclusions based on their own experiences and worldviews. |
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Post by maryhig on Oct 9, 2023 16:31:05 GMT -5
I just can't understand how people can't see that nature itself shows us that God is true? It's so complex that there has to be a greater mind behind it all. Taking away all religion, nature itself shows me God is there. I see him everywhere. For me it's not God everywhere, it's nature that has evolved and it's truly great, in that I agree. There are so many creation stories. The Hebrew creation story was taken in part from the Babylonians. So that's why I don't see it as a God because I would then have to choose which creation story was accurate and which God was the right one. I do agree that what we see in nature is very beautiful but it's also just the culmination of what this universe has as building blocks to work with. I have great respect for you Maryhig and we just have different ways of looking at it is all. But it doesn't matter how many creation stories there are, creation itself is evidence that something greater has to be there to create something so complex. |
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Post by snow on Oct 9, 2023 16:51:48 GMT -5
For me it's not God everywhere, it's nature that has evolved and it's truly great, in that I agree. There are so many creation stories. The Hebrew creation story was taken in part from the Babylonians. So that's why I don't see it as a God because I would then have to choose which creation story was accurate and which God was the right one. I do agree that what we see in nature is very beautiful but it's also just the culmination of what this universe has as building blocks to work with. I have great respect for you Maryhig and we just have different ways of looking at it is all. But it doesn't matter how many creation stories there are, creation itself is evidence that something greater has to be there to create something so complex. Maybe you're right. Trouble is we don't know what that 'greater' is. I doubt it's a personal god that sends us to hell or heaven because he judges us. The universe is actually quite hostile to life. So if there is a greater creator being my thoughts are that this being doesn't care about the life that might arise from what it let loose to form matter from. |
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Post by Admin on Oct 9, 2023 17:09:21 GMT -5
But it doesn't matter how many creation stories there are, creation itself is evidence that something greater has to be there to create something so complex. Thanks maryhig for explaining the crux of the matter succinctly. As stated in the footer below, the purpose of this main board of TMB is for discussing workers, friends, home meetings, conventions, professing life, and the culture and history of the friends and workers church. It is not for debating belief systems. As previously stated, there is a myriad of forums for atheists to debate their beliefs. TMB is not one of them. However, as ex-members of the F&W church who have become atheists are welcome here, there is a board in the 'General' section of this forum set aside for such debates. Eventually this thread will be moved there. Quite frankly, from the feedback we receive, the quickest way to make TMB irrelevant for those in the F&W church (and other Christian ex-members) is to turn it over to become a forum dominated by the endless debates over whose belief system is 'correct'. I know from the feedback that has happened before, TMB is again at risk of becoming unsustainable because of this issue. So we will try our best to restore relevance for current and ex-members of the F&W church ( including the Cooney branch) by focusing this main board on discussions of current issues involving workers, friends, home meetings, conventions, professing life, etc. Thanks to all for understanding! |
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Post by verna on Oct 9, 2023 17:35:17 GMT -5
xna these non-young earth fundies you are mentioning are a rounding error. Not worth talking about. Do the simple maths, mate. I don't need to do it for you. You are wasting everyone's time. Are you for real? Show me in the Bible where it says the world is 6000 years old? By the way, your attitude towards people is awful! You're enough to turn people away from God not bring them to him! It seems almost everyone is not worth talking to to you? Unless we are Catholic maybe? Maryhig I suspect you hit the nail on the head. Catholic. (Not that I hold that against anyone) Something is sounding familiar to me. I suspect Cheryl has maintained other identities here and in other forums. Something not kosher here. And yes rude. We will move on hey? |
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Post by maryhig on Oct 9, 2023 17:50:34 GMT -5
But it doesn't matter how many creation stories there are, creation itself is evidence that something greater has to be there to create something so complex. Thanks maryhig for explaining the crux of the matter succinctly. As stated in the footer below, the purpose of this main board of TMB is for discussing workers, friends, home meetings, conventions, professing life, and the culture and history of the friends and workers church. It is not for debating belief systems. As previously stated, there is a myriad of forums for atheists to debate their beliefs. TMB is not one of them. However, as ex-members of the F&W church who have become atheists are welcome here, there is a board in the 'General' section of this forum set aside for such debates. Eventually this thread will be moved there. Quite frankly, from the feedback we receive, the quickest way to make TMB irrelevant for those in the F&W church (and other Christian ex-members) is to turn it over to become a forum dominated by the endless debates over whose belief system is 'correct'. I know from the feedback that has happened before, TMB is again at risk of becoming unsustainable because of this issue. So we will try our best to restore relevance for current and ex-members of the F&W church ( including the Cooney branch) by focusing this main board on discussions of current issues involving workers, friends, home meetings, conventions, professing life, etc. Thanks to all for understanding! Sorry about that, I'm on an app called Tapatalk, and I just scroll down and look at the new posts and comment on the posts, or answer any questions asked of me not realising we have to speak about certain things in different sections. Which section can we talk about the things of God in please? And is it ok to do so? I personally don't worry about talking to atheists, or the questions they ask. How can we bring the truth to them if they can't ask questions about God? The thing is, I absolutely without a shred of doubt know that God is there, and I just want to share his word with others with the hope that they will see and get to know him too. I always think that my uncle was an atheist until the word of God pierced his heart, when he heard it from a street preacher who was a member of Edward Cooneys meetings. His name was Malcolm. Malcolm was preaching, and he loudly said, "at the cross, at the cross where they first saw the light, but that's where they put the light out" and by uncle said it was a sword going right through him, and that was the end of his life in the world from that moment on, from then on he went to meetings with Malcolm, and then after a while he too became a street preacher and went on his own. If you don't mind, can you tell me where I can talk about the things of God, in which sections I mean please? Thank you. |
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Post by maryhig on Oct 9, 2023 17:54:17 GMT -5
Are you for real? Show me in the Bible where it says the world is 6000 years old? By the way, your attitude towards people is awful! You're enough to turn people away from God not bring them to him! It seems almost everyone is not worth talking to to you? Unless we are Catholic maybe? Maryhig I suspect you hit the nail on the head. Catholic. (Not that I hold that against anyone) Something is sounding familiar to me. I suspect Cheryl has maintained other identities here and in other forums. Something not kosher here. And yes rude. We will move on hey? Yes if people want to believe in Catholicism and other denominations then that's their choice, but there's no need to be nasty to others who don't agree with them. |
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Post by Admin on Oct 9, 2023 18:23:17 GMT -5
Sorry about that, I'm on an app called Tapatalk, and I just scroll down and look at the new posts and comment on the posts, or answer any questions asked of me not realising we have to speak about certain things in different sections. Which section can we talk about the things of God in please? And is it ok to do so? I personally don't worry about talking to atheists, or the questions they ask. How can we bring the truth to them if they can't ask questions about God? The thing is, I absolutely without a shred of doubt know that God is there, and I just want to share his word with others with the hope that they will see and get to know him too. I always think that my uncle was an atheist until the word of God pierced his heart, when he heard it from a street preacher who was a member of Edward Cooneys meetings. His name was Malcolm. Malcolm was preaching, and he loudly said, "at the cross, at the cross where they first saw the light, but that's where they put the light out" and by uncle said it was a sword going right through him, and that was the end of his life in the world from that moment on, from then on he went to meetings with Malcolm, and then after a while he too became a street preacher and went on his own. If you don't mind, can you tell me where I can talk about the things of God, in which sections I mean please? Thank you. It's a good question, thanks for giving this perspective. You are a good advocate! The TMB sub-board for these types of debate is labeled 'Religions, debates, atheist playground, cults'. It's down near the bottom of the forum listing, and as such is a bit of a graveyard position. Definitely not popular! If we want TMB to survive in a sustainable form, then clearly for most F&Ws, endless debates about the rights and wrongs of atheism and pile-ons by atheists of Christian beliefs must be minimized on the main board. We used to have a sub-board right at the top of the main TMB board, something like 'The search for God'. I'll try resurrecting it, maybe slight name change, and if popular then these debates can happen there. Let's give it a try! |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 9, 2023 18:39:06 GMT -5
I've never heard of that Bible, I have the KJV and an English version of the Aramaic but I've never heard of that. Is it very different? . Lots of reading to this but it is worth the study. I think it was commissioned in the 4th century. I have been reading about William Tyndale recently who was eventually executed in 1536 for heresy. The heresy being that he translated the bible into English. His bible and work was used extensively in the King James version. |
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Post by matisse on Oct 9, 2023 20:15:51 GMT -5
Sorry about that, I'm on an app called Tapatalk, and I just scroll down and look at the new posts and comment on the posts, or answer any questions asked of me not realising we have to speak about certain things in different sections. Which section can we talk about the things of God in please? And is it ok to do so? I personally don't worry about talking to atheists, or the questions they ask. How can we bring the truth to them if they can't ask questions about God? The thing is, I absolutely without a shred of doubt know that God is there, and I just want to share his word with others with the hope that they will see and get to know him too. I always think that my uncle was an atheist until the word of God pierced his heart, when he heard it from a street preacher who was a member of Edward Cooneys meetings. His name was Malcolm. Malcolm was preaching, and he loudly said, "at the cross, at the cross where they first saw the light, but that's where they put the light out" and by uncle said it was a sword going right through him, and that was the end of his life in the world from that moment on, from then on he went to meetings with Malcolm, and then after a while he too became a street preacher and went on his own. If you don't mind, can you tell me where I can talk about the things of God, in which sections I mean please? Thank you. It's a good question, thanks for giving this perspective. You are a good advocate! The TMB sub-board for these types of debate is labeled 'Religions, debates, atheist playground, cults'. It's down near the bottom of the forum listing, and as such is a bit of a graveyard position. Definitely not popular! If we want TMB to survive in a sustainable form, then clearly for most F&Ws, endless debates about the rights and wrongs of atheism and pile-ons by atheists of Christian beliefs must be minimized on the main board. We used to have a sub-board right at the top of the main TMB board, something like 'The search for God'. I'll try resurrecting it, maybe slight name change, and if popular then these debates can happen there. Let's give it a try! With respect, very early in this thread, a dismissive, and inaccurate/ignorant comment was made about 2x2s who end up losing their faith. Are you asking that I stay silent about my experience as an ex-2x2 while others mis-represent it? In the past year, the threat to TMB, in my opinion, is well-represented on the humor thread, which at one time attracted broad participation. |
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Post by maryhig on Oct 10, 2023 1:01:44 GMT -5
Sorry about that, I'm on an app called Tapatalk, and I just scroll down and look at the new posts and comment on the posts, or answer any questions asked of me not realising we have to speak about certain things in different sections. Which section can we talk about the things of God in please? And is it ok to do so? I personally don't worry about talking to atheists, or the questions they ask. How can we bring the truth to them if they can't ask questions about God? The thing is, I absolutely without a shred of doubt know that God is there, and I just want to share his word with others with the hope that they will see and get to know him too. I always think that my uncle was an atheist until the word of God pierced his heart, when he heard it from a street preacher who was a member of Edward Cooneys meetings. His name was Malcolm. Malcolm was preaching, and he loudly said, "at the cross, at the cross where they first saw the light, but that's where they put the light out" and by uncle said it was a sword going right through him, and that was the end of his life in the world from that moment on, from then on he went to meetings with Malcolm, and then after a while he too became a street preacher and went on his own. If you don't mind, can you tell me where I can talk about the things of God, in which sections I mean please? Thank you. It's a good question, thanks for giving this perspective. You are a good advocate! The TMB sub-board for these types of debate is labeled 'Religions, debates, atheist playground, cults'. It's down near the bottom of the forum listing, and as such is a bit of a graveyard position. Definitely not popular! If we want TMB to survive in a sustainable form, then clearly for most F&Ws, endless debates about the rights and wrongs of atheism and pile-ons by atheists of Christian beliefs must be minimized on the main board. We used to have a sub-board right at the top of the main TMB board, something like 'The search for God'. I'll try resurrecting it, maybe slight name change, and if popular then these debates can happen there. Let's give it a try! So does that mean I can only speak about God in those sections? The religions, debates, atheist playground, cults, and the search for God one? Those in a graveyard position? I won't be speaking much will I? Hey, I'm being banished to the dungeon 😄. Ok, I'll try to keep to those sections if anyone ever posts there again. Or can we have another one, like discussions about God or something like that? Because how can anyone believe if they don't hear the truth? |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 10, 2023 1:17:55 GMT -5
It's a good question, thanks for giving this perspective. You are a good advocate! The TMB sub-board for these types of debate is labeled 'Religions, debates, atheist playground, cults'. It's down near the bottom of the forum listing, and as such is a bit of a graveyard position. Definitely not popular! If we want TMB to survive in a sustainable form, then clearly for most F&Ws, endless debates about the rights and wrongs of atheism and pile-ons by atheists of Christian beliefs must be minimized on the main board. We used to have a sub-board right at the top of the main TMB board, something like 'The search for God'. I'll try resurrecting it, maybe slight name change, and if popular then these debates can happen there. Let's give it a try! So does that mean I can only speak about God in those sections? The religions, debates, atheist playground, cults, and the search for God one? Those in a graveyard position? I won't be speaking much will I? Hey, I'm being banished to the dungeon 😄. Ok, I'll try to keep to those sections if anyone ever posts there again. Or can we have another one, like discussions about God or something like that? Because how can anyone believe if they don't hear the truth? The workers used to say and may still say, " God knows those with a good heart" or something like that. Which taken to its logical conclusion means workers are not necessary. |
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Post by maryhig on Oct 10, 2023 1:25:30 GMT -5
So does that mean I can only speak about God in those sections? The religions, debates, atheist playground, cults, and the search for God one? Those in a graveyard position? I won't be speaking much will I? Hey, I'm being banished to the dungeon 😄. Ok, I'll try to keep to those sections if anyone ever posts there again. Or can we have another one, like discussions about God or something like that? Because how can anyone believe if they don't hear the truth? The workers used to say and may still say, " God knows those with a good heart" or something like that. Which taken to its logical conclusion means workers are not necessary. God does know those with a good heart, but having a good heart doesn't mean people know God. The seed has to fall into that good heart and remain before we know God. And the seed comes through the word of God shared by those who belong to him. |
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Post by Dan on Oct 10, 2023 1:57:46 GMT -5
So does that mean I can only speak about God in those sections? The religions, debates, atheist playground, cults, and the search for God one? Those in a graveyard position? I won't be speaking much will I? Hey, I'm being banished to the dungeon 😄. Ok, I'll try to keep to those sections if anyone ever posts there again. Or can we have another one, like discussions about God or something like that? Because how can anyone believe if they don't hear the truth?
"The purpose of this main board of TMB is for discussing workers, friends, home meetings, conventions, professing life, and the culture and history of the friends and workers church." I think he's saying to leave God out of it.. Don't quote or debate scripture, TMB is about people and only things affiliated with the 2x2 church. The bible is  I thought that peeling back layers of the onion was about the 2x2 church?
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Post by Dan on Oct 10, 2023 2:04:52 GMT -5
And then there is this: I respect Mary's perspective, but I would like to present an alternative viewpoint that argues against the idea that nature alone demonstrates the existence of God. While nature is awe-inspiring and complex, it does not necessarily provide conclusive evidence for the existence of a divine creator. Here are some points to consider: Naturalistic Explanations: Many aspects of nature that may seem complex and intricate at first can often be explained through natural processes and scientific principles. Science has made significant progress in understanding the origins and development of the natural world without invoking the need for a supernatural creator. Argument from Ignorance: Assuming that complexity in nature necessitates a creator can be seen as an argument from ignorance, meaning that just because we do not fully understand something does not mean it must be the work of a higher power. Throughout history, humans have attributed natural phenomena to gods or deities, only to later discover natural explanations. Diverse Religious Beliefs: Different cultures and religions around the world have their own interpretations of the divine and their own creation stories. Nature alone does not point to a specific religious conception of God, and it is important to recognize that people from various religious backgrounds interpret the natural world differently. Natural Suffering: Nature also contains elements of suffering, such as natural disasters, diseases, and the struggle for survival. These aspects of the natural world raise questions about the nature of God, such as why a benevolent deity would allow such suffering to exist. Alternatives to Theism: There are philosophical and atheistic worldviews that provide alternative explanations for the existence of the universe and the complexity of nature. These perspectives suggest that natural phenomena can be understood without resorting to the concept of a god. Subjectivity: Seeing God in nature can be a subjective experience. What appears as evidence for God to one person may not have the same effect on another. Subjective experiences alone are not sufficient to establish the existence of a deity. Thus, while it is understandable that many people find a sense of wonder and spirituality in the complexity of nature, it is important to recognize that there are alternative explanations and perspectives that do not rely on the existence of God. Belief in a divine creator is a deeply personal and philosophical matter, and different individuals may arrive at different conclusions based on their own experiences and worldviews.
I understand your pov, but understanding nature is what convinces believers of a creator. In one sense, water and dirt make mud, that's a natural effect that requires no Intelligent Designer
But the first prokaryote bacterium shows up in the fossil record circa 4 billion years ago.
A single bacterium which has a single strand of DNA consists of billions of bits of information, greater than the amount of information in the National library of Congress.
If only a few of these bits of information were incorrect, the life form would cease to exist.
So even though one may believe in some sort of chemical evolution; information as that in DNA does not evolve from non information. There had to be a source.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 10, 2023 2:42:03 GMT -5
So does that mean I can only speak about God in those sections? The religions, debates, atheist playground, cults, and the search for God one? Those in a graveyard position? I won't be speaking much will I? Hey, I'm being banished to the dungeon 😄. Ok, I'll try to keep to those sections if anyone ever posts there again. Or can we have another one, like discussions about God or something like that? Because how can anyone believe if they don't hear the truth?
"The purpose of this main board of TMB is for discussing workers, friends, home meetings, conventions, professing life, and the culture and history of the friends and workers church." I think he's saying to leave God out of it.. Don't quote or debate scripture, TMB is about people and only things affiliated with the 2x2 church. The bible is I thought that peeling back layers of the onion was about the 2x2 church?
I know it's confusing, because on the main TMB thread there is a discussion about Israel and Palestine too, which isn't about the 2x2 church. Anyway I'll just have to try and be more observant and just try to post about God in other threads. The dungeon ones😉 hey we'll have to bring them back to life! 😊 |
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Post by Admin on Oct 10, 2023 6:53:21 GMT -5
So does that mean I can only speak about God in those sections? The religions, debates, atheist playground, cults, and the search for God one? Those in a graveyard position? I won't be speaking much will I? Hey, I'm being banished to the dungeon 😄. Ok, I'll try to keep to those sections if anyone ever posts there again. Or can we have another one, like discussions about God or something like that? Because how can anyone believe if they don't hear the truth? No, of course not! Sorry I mislead you, I could try it in Welsh maybe??!  The F&W (including our Cooney brothers and sisters) is a Christian church, so discussions about God, including encouraging 'testimony' or revelation are welcome. Indeed, encouraged on TMB main board. However, the thing to bear in mind is TMB (the main board, at least) is not a place for deep discussions/debates of other belief systems like Buddhism, Islam, atheism, etc. Out of consideration for any such Buddhists, etc. we do have some places (sub-boards) for such debates if they wish. But TMB is fundamentally focused on discussions concerning the F&W (including Cooney's branch) church. |
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Post by Admin on Oct 10, 2023 7:09:42 GMT -5
I know it's confusing, because on the main TMB thread there is a discussion about Israel and Palestine too, which isn't about the 2x2 church. Anyway I'll just have to try and be more observant and just try to post about God in other threads. The dungeon ones😉 hey we'll have to bring them back to life! 😊 Regarding the Israel/Palestine thread. Yes we let a lot go, it's too hard (and not ideal, I think) to be too rigid. Just occasionally we get lots of feedback that things have strayed a bit far, and try to steer back on course. Anyway, there's a lot of Israel/Palestine in the OT, so it's likely as time goes on, the relevance in such a topic will surface. At least, the posts there have been useful in reminding us that it's still a dangerous world with lots of injustice. I think it deserves our attention, the horror that's unfolding there is beyond imaginable. |
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Post by intelchips on Oct 10, 2023 8:42:33 GMT -5
And then there is this: I respect Mary's perspective, but I would like to present an alternative viewpoint that argues against the idea that nature alone demonstrates the existence of God. While nature is awe-inspiring and complex, it does not necessarily provide conclusive evidence for the existence of a divine creator. Here are some points to consider: Naturalistic Explanations: Many aspects of nature that may seem complex and intricate at first can often be explained through natural processes and scientific principles. Science has made significant progress in understanding the origins and development of the natural world without invoking the need for a supernatural creator. Argument from Ignorance: Assuming that complexity in nature necessitates a creator can be seen as an argument from ignorance, meaning that just because we do not fully understand something does not mean it must be the work of a higher power. Throughout history, humans have attributed natural phenomena to gods or deities, only to later discover natural explanations. Diverse Religious Beliefs: Different cultures and religions around the world have their own interpretations of the divine and their own creation stories. Nature alone does not point to a specific religious conception of God, and it is important to recognize that people from various religious backgrounds interpret the natural world differently. Natural Suffering: Nature also contains elements of suffering, such as natural disasters, diseases, and the struggle for survival. These aspects of the natural world raise questions about the nature of God, such as why a benevolent deity would allow such suffering to exist. Alternatives to Theism: There are philosophical and atheistic worldviews that provide alternative explanations for the existence of the universe and the complexity of nature. These perspectives suggest that natural phenomena can be understood without resorting to the concept of a god. Subjectivity: Seeing God in nature can be a subjective experience. What appears as evidence for God to one person may not have the same effect on another. Subjective experiences alone are not sufficient to establish the existence of a deity. Thus, while it is understandable that many people find a sense of wonder and spirituality in the complexity of nature, it is important to recognize that there are alternative explanations and perspectives that do not rely on the existence of God. Belief in a divine creator is a deeply personal and philosophical matter, and different individuals may arrive at different conclusions based on their own experiences and worldviews.
I understand your pov, but understanding nature is what convinces believers of a creator. In one sense, water and dirt make mud, that's a natural effect that requires no Intelligent Designer
But the first prokaryote bacterium shows up in the fossil record circa 4 billion years ago.
A single bacterium which has a single strand of DNA consists of billions of bits of information, greater than the amount of information in the National library of Congress.
If only a few of these bits of information were incorrect, the life form would cease to exist.
So even though one may believe in some sort of chemical evolution; information as that in DNA does not evolve from non information. There had to be a source.
Is it possible that errors were made, leading to our current circumstances? By the way, the administrator is requesting that we continue these discussions in a separate room. I understand that refraining from responding when a staunch believer makes a statement that warrants challenge can be challenging, but we must make an effort to do so. |
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Post by maryhig on Oct 10, 2023 10:28:04 GMT -5
So does that mean I can only speak about God in those sections? The religions, debates, atheist playground, cults, and the search for God one? Those in a graveyard position? I won't be speaking much will I? Hey, I'm being banished to the dungeon 😄. Ok, I'll try to keep to those sections if anyone ever posts there again. Or can we have another one, like discussions about God or something like that? Because how can anyone believe if they don't hear the truth? No, of course not! Sorry I mislead you, I could try it in Welsh maybe??! The F&W (including our Cooney brothers and sisters) is a Christian church, so discussions about God, including encouraging 'testimony' or revelation are welcome. Indeed, encouraged on TMB main board. However, the thing to bear in mind is TMB (the main board, at least) is not a place for deep discussions/debates of other belief systems like Buddhism, Islam, atheism, etc. Out of consideration for any such Buddhists, etc. we do have some places (sub-boards) for such debates if they wish. But TMB is fundamentally focused on discussions concerning the F&W (including Cooney's branch) church. Ah ok, just let me know if I'm doing anything wrong. But personally I don't mind discussing things with atheists or others of different religions, it's all actually strengthening me and my belief in God as he helps me daily to speak to people, if we have faith in God then we should be ready to speak to anyone. I was having a talk to a Muslim today in a shop, he wants to talk to me again, he was working so couldn't talk for long, but we had I good talk about God and it was interesting. He wants me to explain to him about Jesus as he sort of got his back up a bit when I mentioned him. So I talked a bit more and he listened and I listened to him too, he is a peaceful Muslim, and I told him about my experience on London bridge with some young Muslims, have I ever shared that here? I can't remember. So anyway, we just have to always be ready to be there for others and to speak to others don't we? As you might have guessed, I can talk 😄 By the way, I can only understand a bit of Welsh but I thought it was funny what you said. My daughter would have to translate to me, she's fluent Welsh 😄. |
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Post by snow on Oct 10, 2023 14:28:13 GMT -5
It's a good question, thanks for giving this perspective. You are a good advocate! The TMB sub-board for these types of debate is labeled 'Religions, debates, atheist playground, cults'. It's down near the bottom of the forum listing, and as such is a bit of a graveyard position. Definitely not popular! If we want TMB to survive in a sustainable form, then clearly for most F&Ws, endless debates about the rights and wrongs of atheism and pile-ons by atheists of Christian beliefs must be minimized on the main board. We used to have a sub-board right at the top of the main TMB board, something like 'The search for God'. I'll try resurrecting it, maybe slight name change, and if popular then these debates can happen there. Let's give it a try! So does that mean I can only speak about God in those sections? The religions, debates, atheist playground, cults, and the search for God one? Those in a graveyard position? I won't be speaking much will I? Hey, I'm being banished to the dungeon 😄. Ok, I'll try to keep to those sections if anyone ever posts there again. Or can we have another one, like discussions about God or something like that? Because how can anyone believe if they don't hear the truth? Yes we shouldn't be discussing this on these threads. I apologize Admin for forgetting that. I don't mind discussing things like that but I do understand they shouldn't be everywhere on here. I have a thread called What I learned today where I think it's okay to discuss anything. It was started to do just that actually. People post what they have read that was of interest to them and discuss it. |
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Post by Dan on Oct 10, 2023 15:45:09 GMT -5
I understand your pov, but understanding nature is what convinces believers of a creator. In one sense, water and dirt make mud, that's a natural effect that requires no Intelligent Designer
But the first prokaryote bacterium shows up in the fossil record circa 4 billion years ago.
A single bacterium which has a single strand of DNA consists of billions of bits of information, greater than the amount of information in the National library of Congress.
If only a few of these bits of information were incorrect, the life form would cease to exist.
So even though one may believe in some sort of chemical evolution; information as that in DNA does not evolve from non information. There had to be a source.
Is it possible that errors were made, leading to our current circumstances? By the way, the administrator is requesting that we continue these discussions in a separate room. I understand that refraining from responding when a staunch believer makes a statement that warrants challenge can be challenging, but we must make an effort to do so.
I think he already created a separate thread (Search for God).. I don't personally get the reasoning, but he doesn't like some topics, especially when they are dominating the board. I think the idea is to have premiere topics of disgruntled ex-2x2's front and center? That's essentially who the forum was created for.. A Worker told me TMB's sole purpose was specifically designed to slam the Truth and was just a place for disgruntled ex-friends to complain, and that's essentially true.
Problem is that some like myself left for biblical reasons (meaning & interpretation), but its not permitted to discuss the bible in the featured threads. I understand the necessity of keeping some kind of order and many threads do drift off topic. What amazes me is that most of the former friends didn't leave for biblical disagreements, they simply became nonbelievers (atheist), which suggest they never had any real problems with the church, but just didn't have any faith from the onset.
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