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Post by jonathan on Jul 28, 2023 2:48:05 GMT -5
A very wounding tactic against survivors is when narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths are able to align church leaders behind their agenda against the victim. Many abusers can easily manipulate and triangulate church leaders. Why? Most church leaders are not trained to spot psychological abuse and if the abuser says all the right religious statements, the leaders take the abuser’s words at face value. Once the toxic person has poisoned the situation with lies, the survivor will have a very difficult time convincing the leaders of the truth.
~ Shannon Thomas southlakecounseling.org
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2023 9:51:04 GMT -5
Thats not it 100% of the time, look to plain ignorance most of the time...
He/she situations without clear evidence has been very problematic in the past even outside religious circles. With high-stake consequences for both or either/or and nothing verifiable, proceed with caution. However my view has change dramatically on this. Everything should be heard and investigated seriously before opening the pie hole and saying "nope didn't happen" or "lie".
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Post by Admin on Jul 28, 2023 11:23:09 GMT -5
A very wounding tactic against survivors is when narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths are able to align church leaders behind their agenda against the victim. Many abusers can easily manipulate and triangulate church leaders. Why? Most church leaders are not trained to spot psychological abuse and if the abuser says all the right religious statements, the leaders take the abuser’s words at face value. Once the toxic person has poisoned the situation with lies, the survivor will have a very difficult time convincing the leaders of the truth. ~ Shannon Thomas southlakecounseling.org jonathan, I don't doubt the professional wisdom of counselors in their assessment of the narcissistic, sociopathic and psychopathic manipulation that sexual abusers of children practice in attempts to cover their crimes. But I do query that any humane person, let alone a genuine follower of Christ, would be duped into disbelieving any victim of CSA by such deceit. Certainly none of the supporters of the victim/survivors that I know could be taken in by such. Rather, it seems an excuse rather than reason why overseers and workers don't believe survivors. Surely there would need to be some underlying agenda/s why such trickery could blind so-called "Christian leaders"? Attitudes like self-importance, self-preservation, putting reputations of the group above moral and legal rectitude, etc. Jude 1:4 Titus 1:16
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Post by verna on Jul 28, 2023 13:44:08 GMT -5
A very wounding tactic against survivors is when narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths are able to align church leaders behind their agenda against the victim. Many abusers can easily manipulate and triangulate church leaders. Why? Most church leaders are not trained to spot psychological abuse and if the abuser says all the right religious statements, the leaders take the abuser’s words at face value. Once the toxic person has poisoned the situation with lies, the survivor will have a very difficult time convincing the leaders of the truth. ~ Shannon Thomas southlakecounseling.org jonathan, I don't doubt the professional wisdom of counselors in their assessment of the narcissistic, sociopathic and psychopathic manipulation that sexual abusers of children practice in attempts to cover their crimes. But I do query that any humane person, let alone a genuine follower of Christ, would be duped into disbelieving any victim of CSA by such deceit. Certainly none of the supporters of the victim/survivors that I know could be taken in by such. Rather, it seems an excuse rather than reason why overseers and workers don't believe survivors. Surely there would need to be some underlying agenda/s why such trickery could blind so-called "Christian leaders"? Attitudes like self-importance, self-preservation, putting reputations of the group above moral and legal rectitude, etc. Jude 1:4 Titus 1:16 I was recently introduced to the concept of “flying monkeys”. Pretty interesting.
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Post by getreal on Jul 28, 2023 14:12:42 GMT -5
A very wounding tactic against survivors is when narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths are able to align church leaders behind their agenda against the victim. Many abusers can easily manipulate and triangulate church leaders. Why? Most church leaders are not trained to spot psychological abuse and if the abuser says all the right religious statements, the leaders take the abuser’s words at face value. Once the toxic person has poisoned the situation with lies, the survivor will have a very difficult time convincing the leaders of the truth. ~ Shannon Thomas southlakecounseling.org jonathan, I don't doubt the professional wisdom of counselors in their assessment of the narcissistic, sociopathic and psychopathic manipulation that sexual abusers of children practice in attempts to cover their crimes. But I do query that any humane person, let alone a genuine follower of Christ, would be duped into disbelieving any victim of CSA by such deceit. Certainly none of the supporters of the victim/survivors that I know could be taken in by such. Rather, it seems an excuse rather than reason why overseers and workers don't believe survivors. Surely there would need to be some underlying agenda/s why such trickery could blind so-called "Christian leaders"? Attitudes like self-importance, self-preservation, putting reputations of the group above moral and legal rectitude, etc. Jude 1:4 Titus 1:16 Maybe this board is done. I am not sure why admin is stepping in here? Jonathan opens up a legitimate question that is certainly debatable but I don’t know why admin would step in with such an outright denouncement. There are few posting these days. There is a better conversation happening on Facebook advocates for the truth
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Post by snow on Jul 28, 2023 14:50:57 GMT -5
jonathan, I don't doubt the professional wisdom of counselors in their assessment of the narcissistic, sociopathic and psychopathic manipulation that sexual abusers of children practice in attempts to cover their crimes. But I do query that any humane person, let alone a genuine follower of Christ, would be duped into disbelieving any victim of CSA by such deceit. Certainly none of the supporters of the victim/survivors that I know could be taken in by such. Rather, it seems an excuse rather than reason why overseers and workers don't believe survivors. Surely there would need to be some underlying agenda/s why such trickery could blind so-called "Christian leaders"? Attitudes like self-importance, self-preservation, putting reputations of the group above moral and legal rectitude, etc. Jude 1:4 Titus 1:16 Maybe this board is done. I am not sure why admin is stepping in here? Jonathan opens up a legitimate question that is certainly debatable but I don’t know why admin would step in with such an outright denouncement. There are few posting these days. There is a better conversation happening on Facebook advocates for the truth I didn't see it that way. I saw Admin acknowledging what Jonathan said but also pointing out that because of the length of time this has been happening, the fact that they knew it was bad because they knew enough to move the worker out of the area to other unsuspecting friends, and the fact that anyone listening to the voice of someone who has been abused telling their story would know how hard it was for them, that it's more than just ignorance and having the wool pulled over their eyes by the abusers. No one can tell me that their excuse of not knowing it was 'so bad' is a valid one. Not if you have any ability to feel empathy anyway. But it appears that those in charge wanted to protect the 'kingdom's' reputation so they were narcissitic enough to just ignore the pleas of the survivors. It wasn't in the workers best interest to do anything that would undermine those things. So when they 'did something' it was to move the abuser, tell the survivor to keep quiet or be excommunicated, and not tell the friends in the new region the abuser was moved to. That is not the actions of someone that believes the abuser. That is the actions of someone that knows full well the repercussions if they let it be known to the friends. That is called aiding and abetting with knowledge.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 28, 2023 14:51:08 GMT -5
Thats not it 100% of the time, look to plain ignorance most of the time... He/she situations without clear evidence has been very problematic in the past even outside religious circles. With high-stake consequences for both or either/or and nothing verifiable, proceed with caution. However my view has change dramatically on this. Everything should be heard and investigated seriously before opening the pie hole and saying "nope didn't happen" or "lie". Plain ignorance, yes, but not separate from what Jonathan explained. Without such intent to misguide people, there are techniques for dealing effectively with "he said-she said" situations. Abusers thrive on the ignorance of others, but the abusers always know what they're doing.
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Post by snow on Jul 28, 2023 14:56:26 GMT -5
Thats not it 100% of the time, look to plain ignorance most of the time... He/she situations without clear evidence has been very problematic in the past even outside religious circles. With high-stake consequences for both or either/or and nothing verifiable, proceed with caution. However my view has change dramatically on this. Everything should be heard and investigated seriously before opening the pie hole and saying "nope didn't happen" or "lie". Plain ignorance, yes, but not separate from what Jonathan explained. Without such intent to misguide people, there are techniques for dealing effectively with "he said-she said" situations. Abusers thrive on the ignorance of others, but the abusers always know what they're doing. I have to say the overseers knew what they were doing too. Otherwise they wouldn't have moved the abusers around. They knew the abusers actions happened and that they were detrimental to the reputation of the workers. Otherwise they would not have moved the abuser to another location without telling the friends of allegations in the old location. They would have left them there because they believed they didn't do anything wrong. Moving them tells me they knew it happened and that it was wrong. They knew it was wrong and choose to do damage control. That's how I see it.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jul 28, 2023 15:57:51 GMT -5
Religion, and particularly the Judeo/christian ones exist in an alternate reality. This warps the thinking of what is real, what is right and what is wrong. This alternate reality affects many facets of a believers life but is particularly aweful when we see victims victimised, abusers exonerated, abusers hidden and moved. Trite comments such as leave it in gods hands allows further abuse to happen. Coming back to reality and allowing the law to take care of abusers will help sort this cult out.
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Post by dsmith on Jul 28, 2023 17:39:25 GMT -5
Maybe this board is done. I am not sure why admin is stepping in here? Jonathan opens up a legitimate question that is certainly debatable but I don’t know why admin would step in with such an outright denouncement. There are few posting these days. There is a better conversation happening on Facebook advocates for the truth I didn't see it that way. I saw Admin acknowledging what Jonathan said but also pointing out that because of the length of time this has been happening, the fact that they knew it was bad because they knew enough to move the worker out of the area to other unsuspecting friends, and the fact that anyone listening to the voice of someone who has been abused telling their story would know how hard it was for them, that it's more than just ignorance and having the wool pulled over their eyes by the abusers. No one can tell me that their excuse of not knowing it was 'so bad' is a valid one. Not if you have any ability to feel empathy anyway. But it appears that those in charge wanted to protect the 'kingdom's' reputation so they were narcissitic enough to just ignore the pleas of the survivors. It wasn't in the workers best interest to do anything that would undermine those things. So when they 'did something' it was to move the abuser, tell the survivor to keep quiet or be excommunicated, and not tell the friends in the new region the abuser was moved to. That is not the actions of someone that believes the abuser. That is the actions of someone that knows full well the repercussions if they let it be known to the friends. That is called aiding and abetting with knowledge. So true! They did take action, just not the correct action. They have opened up a case here for a victim, got them all wound up, then shut it down again, saying that they are happy with where it is at! How is that a solution for that victim?!
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Post by fixit on Jul 28, 2023 18:41:03 GMT -5
A few contributing factors come to mind:
1. Self righteousness: The victim will often act out of step with the tribe. They may be "not hearty" in the meetings or leave the church altogether. They may get into destructive relationships and generally not come up to the "standard" of pious workers and friends.
2. Ignorance: Most workers and friends have never made the effort to learn about child sexual abuse and the life-long crippling of the abused child that can never be undone.
3. Lack of empathy: The inability to "wear the moccasins" of the abused child and supportive family.
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Post by fixit on Jul 28, 2023 18:51:43 GMT -5
I don't doubt the professional wisdom of counselors in their assessment of the narcissistic, sociopathic and psychopathic manipulation that sexual abusers of children practice in attempts to cover their crimes. But I do query that any humane person, let alone a genuine follower of Christ, would be duped into disbelieving any victim of CSA by such deceit. Certainly none of the supporters of the victim/survivors that I know could be taken in by such. Rather, it seems an excuse rather than reason why overseers and workers don't believe survivors. Surely there would need to be some underlying agenda/s why such trickery could blind so-called "Christian leaders"? Attitudes like self-importance, self-preservation, putting reputations of the group above moral and legal rectitude, etc. Jude 1:4 Titus 1:16 CSA is poorly handled in most Christian groups.
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Post by getreal on Jul 28, 2023 20:28:52 GMT -5
Maybe this board is done. I am not sure why admin is stepping in here? Jonathan opens up a legitimate question that is certainly debatable but I don’t know why admin would step in with such an outright denouncement. There are few posting these days. There is a better conversation happening on Facebook advocates for the truth I didn't see it that way. I saw Admin acknowledging what Jonathan said but also pointing out that because of the length of time this has been happening, the fact that they knew it was bad because they knew enough to move the worker out of the area to other unsuspecting friends, and the fact that anyone listening to the voice of someone who has been abused telling their story would know how hard it was for them, that it's more than just ignorance and having the wool pulled over their eyes by the abusers. No one can tell me that their excuse of not knowing it was 'so bad' is a valid one. Not if you have any ability to feel empathy anyway. But it appears that those in charge wanted to protect the 'kingdom's' reputation so they were narcissitic enough to just ignore the pleas of the survivors. It wasn't in the workers best interest to do anything that would undermine those things. So when they 'did something' it was to move the abuser, tell the survivor to keep quiet or be excommunicated, and not tell the friends in the new region the abuser was moved to. That is not the actions of someone that believes the abuser. That is the actions of someone that knows full well the repercussions if they let it be known to the friends. That is called aiding and abetting with knowledge. You are right snow. I misunderstood. Sorry about that.
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Post by Admin on Jul 28, 2023 21:42:13 GMT -5
Maybe this board is done. I am not sure why admin is stepping in here? Jonathan opens up a legitimate question that is certainly debatable but I don’t know why admin would step in with such an outright denouncement. There are few posting these days. There is a better conversation happening on Facebook advocates for the truth Hi getreal, thanks for seeking clarification. I'm responding here from my personal perspective of someone with a belief in God (creator of this universe), which means that I believe that people are created in God's image. In other words, look on us (especially any professing a Christian faith) and you see something of what God is like (his image). When someone (say, visitor from a foreign culture) looks on these Workers with the oversight of the F&W church, what image of God do they see? We can imagine them saying, as they watch how victims of CSA - little defenseless children - have been treated when those who have perpetrated this criminal wickedness are the ones given compassion, if that's what God is like then he's an evil wicked monster. That fundamentally is why my response - to these overseers being sucked in by the psychological manipulations used by child-abusers that jonathan posted - was that this is not a reason but rather an excuse for despicable, totally un-Christian behavior. If they have any human empathy and Christian compassion flowing through their veins, their natural responses would have been completely different. As snow and so many other of our atheist colleagues on TMB have responded to this whole crisis, humans do not need to profess a Christian faith to react to child sexual abuse with empathy and in a humane way. It's how we're made. Those with power and oversight who have responded (and continue to respond) differently, have something that's gone horribly wrong. That's just my opinion and experience, anyway!
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Post by mdm on Jul 29, 2023 1:08:34 GMT -5
I don't doubt the professional wisdom of counselors in their assessment of the narcissistic, sociopathic and psychopathic manipulation that sexual abusers of children practice in attempts to cover their crimes. But I do query that any humane person, let alone a genuine follower of Christ, would be duped into disbelieving any victim of CSA by such deceit. Certainly none of the supporters of the victim/survivors that I know could be taken in by such. Rather, it seems an excuse rather than reason why overseers and workers don't believe survivors. Surely there would need to be some underlying agenda/s why such trickery could blind so-called "Christian leaders"? Attitudes like self-importance, self-preservation, putting reputations of the group above moral and legal rectitude, etc. Jude 1:4 Titus 1:16 CSA is poorly handled in most Christian groups. I am not sure that is a correct statement. I think that most Christian groups have very clear child protection guidelines. They are very aware of dangers and their own moral, spiritual and legal responsibility to protect children.
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Post by fixit on Jul 29, 2023 1:37:57 GMT -5
CSA is poorly handled in most Christian groups. I am not sure that is a correct statement. I think that most Christian groups have very clear child protection guidelines. They are very aware of dangers and their own moral, spiritual and legal responsibility to protect children. People like Diane Langberg would disagree with you. Child protection guidelines are a good start, but they don't always stop abuse. Here's a BBC report: www.bbc.com/news/uk-58420270
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2023 1:51:43 GMT -5
CSA is poorly handled in most Christian groups. I am not sure that is a correct statement. I think that most Christian groups have very clear child protection guidelines. They are very aware of dangers and their own moral, spiritual and legal responsibility to protect children. From what we generally know that doesn't really ring true...I seriously doubt much was on paper or anywhere in churches until the news of the Catholic Churches pedo's (2002) reports exploded...
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Post by mdm on Jul 29, 2023 11:24:02 GMT -5
I am not sure that is a correct statement. I think that most Christian groups have very clear child protection guidelines. They are very aware of dangers and their own moral, spiritual and legal responsibility to protect children. People like Diane Langberg would disagree with you. Child protection guidelines are a good start, but they don't always stop abuse. Here's a BBC report: www.bbc.com/news/uk-58420270The BBC report covers various religions, with emphasis on Jehovah’s Witnesses among Christian groups - not very representative of Protestant denominations?? Of course, abuse can happen anywhere. It’s how it’s dealt with and what steps are taken to prevent it is what matters to me.
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Post by intelchips on Jul 29, 2023 12:16:32 GMT -5
jonathan , I don't doubt the professional wisdom of counselors in their assessment of the narcissistic, sociopathic and psychopathic manipulation that sexual abusers of children practice in attempts to cover their crimes. But I do query that any humane person, let alone a genuine follower of Christ, would be duped into disbelieving any victim of CSA by such deceit. Certainly none of the supporters of the victim/survivors that I know could be taken in by such. Rather, it seems an excuse rather than reason why overseers and workers don't believe survivors. Surely there would need to be some underlying agenda/s why such trickery could blind so-called "Christian leaders"? Attitudes like self-importance, self-preservation, putting reputations of the group above moral and legal rectitude, etc. Jude 1:4 Titus 1:16 Maybe this board is done. I am not sure why admin is stepping in here? Jonathan opens up a legitimate question that is certainly debatable but I don’t know why admin would step in with such an outright denouncement. There are few posting these days. There is a better conversation happening on Facebook advocates for the truth Admin can’t be all bad, he has put up with me for as-long-as I have been around, and I know I’m not everyone's cup of tea.
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Post by snow on Jul 29, 2023 12:53:12 GMT -5
A few contributing factors come to mind: 1. Self righteousness: The victim will often act out of step with the tribe. They may be "not hearty" in the meetings or leave the church altogether. They may get into destructive relationships and generally not come up to the "standard" of pious workers and friends. 2. Ignorance: Most workers and friends have never made the effort to learn about child sexual abuse and the life-long crippling of the abused child that can never be undone. 3. Lack of empathy: The inability to "wear the moccasins" of the abused child and supportive family. I think the workers have enormous empathy. But they also have the mind of Christ. "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." The words of Jesus focus humanity on the great torture monster God in the sky. He will burn the majority of humanity forever in unbelievable agony for the slightest unforgiven sin. So almost anything can be excused or justified if it can possibly save people from the unspeakable atrocities that will be committed by the wrathful and cruel Heavenly Father. You can wring your hands over victims for the next five thousand years. But you can't change the words of Jesus. Therefore Christianity cannot be reformed. And that's why CSA in religions of any kind that believe in eternal torture are so bad at handling it. They justify what they do by telling themselves that they are doing it for the souls of people. They know it's wrong but because it might make them look bad if it became known their reputations would be harmed, so they then have to have a righteous justification for doing horrific things. I guess that's how they can live with their horrible decisions What really makes me angry though is that they have no hesitation excommunicating someone from their church for divorce and remarrying, complaining about CSA and for other reasons that are far less serious. When they hold the belief that someone will go to hell if they aren't part of their group, that seems to make them even more horrific. So, if they kick you out for less serious reasons their excuse about saving the abusers soul just doesn't ring true imo
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Post by fixit on Jul 29, 2023 16:12:30 GMT -5
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Post by mdm on Jul 29, 2023 16:18:59 GMT -5
I am not sure that is a correct statement. I think that most Christian groups have very clear child protection guidelines. They are very aware of dangers and their own moral, spiritual and legal responsibility to protect children. From what we generally know that doesn't really ring true...I seriously doubt much was on paper or anywhere in churches until the news of the Catholic Churches pedo's (2002) reports exploded... The congregation I belong to has had guidelines since mid 80s. I don’t know how common it was back then, but I would guess thatvthey weren’t the first ones to come up with the idea.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 29, 2023 16:19:35 GMT -5
I think the workers have enormous empathy. But they also have the mind of Christ. "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." The words of Jesus focus humanity on the great torture monster God in the sky. He will burn the majority of humanity forever in unbelievable agony for the slightest unforgiven sin. So almost anything can be excused or justified if it can possibly save people from the unspeakable atrocities that will be committed by the wrathful and cruel Heavenly Father. You can wring your hands over victims for the next five thousand years. But you can't change the words of Jesus. Therefore Christianity cannot be reformed. And that's why CSA in religions of any kind that believe in eternal torture are so bad at handling it. They justify what they do by telling themselves that they are doing it for the souls of people. They know it's wrong but because it might make them look bad if it became known their reputations would be harmed, so they then have to have a righteous justification for doing horrific things. I guess that's how they can live with their horrible decisions What really makes me angry though is that they have no hesitation excommunicating someone from their church for divorce and remarrying, complaining about CSA and for other reasons that are far less serious. When they hold the belief that someone will go to hell if they aren't part of their group, that seems to make them even more horrific. So, if they kick you out for less serious reasons their excuse about saving the abusers soul just doesn't ring true imo 🎯 Very well stated, Snow! Their hypocrisy in a nutshell! And it still leaves me asking why. 👀 Still waiting. 👀 The most obvious answer is hard to accept, but I have to admit that it is increasingly likely.
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Post by mdm on Jul 29, 2023 16:47:05 GMT -5
A very wounding tactic against survivors is when narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths are able to align church leaders behind their agenda against the victim. Many abusers can easily manipulate and triangulate church leaders. Why? Most church leaders are not trained to spot psychological abuse and if the abuser says all the right religious statements, the leaders take the abuser’s words at face value. Once the toxic person has poisoned the situation with lies, the survivor will have a very difficult time convincing the leaders of the truth. ~ Shannon Thomas southlakecounseling.org That scenario is plausible only in cases of a single allegation. The current crises has been brought on by multitude of cases where there was more than one allegation against a perpetrator, and overseers still sided with the perpetrator. These are not cases where victims we not believed, but where they were mostly told to forgive and forget. At the heart of the problem is the doctrine that sexual immorality is not a spiritual failing and that anyone can “fall into” sexual sin. Men who commit sexual sin or abuse have traditionally been seen as victims of seduction, and in the case of workers the solution was to move the worker away from the problem woman or child.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2023 16:49:05 GMT -5
From what we generally know that doesn't really ring true...I seriously doubt much was on paper or anywhere in churches until the news of the Catholic Churches pedo's (2002) reports exploded... The congregation I belong to has had guidelines since mid 80s. I don’t know how common it was back then, but I would guess thatvthey weren’t the first ones to come up with the idea. Laws were passed in 1974... so it appears even your congregation was a bit behind... Others before were probably handling it the old-fashioned way, which isn't a bad idea...
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Post by fixit on Jul 29, 2023 19:09:15 GMT -5
People are judged according to their conformity to the workers' kingdom rather than God's kingdom within the heart.
That's why so many good people have been excommunicated for objecting to immorality in workers and friends.
The King of kings is gently pleading; O do not let Him then depart! His grace and love thy soul is needing; Enthrone Him King within thy heart.
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Post by snow on Jul 30, 2023 12:58:25 GMT -5
And that's why CSA in religions of any kind that believe in eternal torture are so bad at handling it. They justify what they do by telling themselves that they are doing it for the souls of people. They know it's wrong but because it might make them look bad if it became known their reputations would be harmed, so they then have to have a righteous justification for doing horrific things. I guess that's how they can live with their horrible decisions What really makes me angry though is that they have no hesitation excommunicating someone from their church for divorce and remarrying, complaining about CSA and for other reasons that are far less serious. When they hold the belief that someone will go to hell if they aren't part of their group, that seems to make them even more horrific. So, if they kick you out for less serious reasons their excuse about saving the abusers soul just doesn't ring true imo 🎯 Very well stated, Snow! Their hypocrisy in a nutshell! And it still leaves me asking why. 👀 Still waiting. 👀 The most obvious answer is hard to accept, but I have to admit that it is increasingly likely. I can see why the professing friends are so reluctant to think badly of the workers. Look at us that have been out for decades and we are still finding it difficult to believe what appears to be the obvious answer.
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Post by believingjesus on Aug 15, 2023 17:19:36 GMT -5
To quote my truther father, people who accuse the workers of CSA have become “bitter.” I’ve corrected my father many times on this matter but he just won’t get it. This is nothing but an ad hominem attack that workers love to use that does absolutely nothing to disprove the accusations of CSA (but they think they do). Yet he still claims my attitude has been corrupted by these “bitter” people.
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