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Post by Dan on Apr 13, 2023 0:10:56 GMT -5
That is a frustrating thing for me to comprehend.. The 2 women waited until DB was pushing up daisies before they stepped-up to the plate and said something. If they hadn't remained silent, it may have saved others from being victimized. I just don't get it, they all ought to scream it from their rooftops like chinesewhispers does.. If abusers suspected that their victims would tell everyone what happened, that might be the best deterrent. But they rely on their victims staying quiet, and its their silence that enables a predator... jmo
It's extremely difficult for most victims to report. It's our responsibility to protect children and bring the perps to justice. Not children's responsibility.
I understand the embarrassment and humiliation that a young person might endure, but a parent can't bring an abuser to justice if their child says nothing about it.
I know that if one of my sisters got molested or even fondled, they would have told our Dad, and God help the offender.
Of course it isn't a child or young ladies responsibility to bring about justice, but I don't know why they wouldn't spill the beans to a parent they trust and rely on them to handle it.
Perhaps they just feel ashamed that they were violated? Feel guilty, don't think they'd be believed, or don't want others to know or feel sorry for them? Its a psychological puzzle.
But secrecy is a big part of the problem, because you can't resolve a hidden crime.
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Post by Vinny T. on Apr 13, 2023 0:24:45 GMT -5
In respect to the “200” number - is that for victims or abusers? And where did that # come from? Is that real or a guesstimate? Do your research lady. EVERYTHING I have stated has came to pass and then some. So will you PROVE your words or are you just being more obscure? You said everyone knew of the things I said so you are now laden with the burden of proof. PROVE IT. Or just go back to being like the leaves in the wind and covering the bodies of the victims that are rife within the "truth". The facts are that the truth is a full of sexual abuse for DECADES and you're mad at me??? What in Gods name is wrong with you? I am not the one that sexually abused people or the organization that covers it up and allows it to continue over and over and over in multiple areas for decades. That is what YOU are part of and defending. Are you saying they are all lying? WHAT IS YOUR ISSUE AND THE PEOPLE DEFENDING THIS VILE BEHAVIOR?
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Post by jennyfromtheblock on Apr 13, 2023 0:44:11 GMT -5
In respect to the “200” number - is that for victims or abusers? And where did that # come from? Is that real or a guesstimate? Do your research lady. EVERYTHING I have stated has came to pass and then some. So will you PROVE your words or are you just being more obscure? You said everyone knew of the things I said so you are now laden with the burden of proof. PROVE IT. Or just go back to being like the leaves in the wind and covering the bodies of the victims that are rife within the "truth". The facts are that the truth is a full of sexual abuse for DECADES and you're mad at me??? What in Gods name is wrong with you? I am not the one that sexually abused people or the organization that covers it up and allows it to continue over and over and over in multiple areas for decades. That is what YOU are part of and defending. Are you saying they are all lying? WHAT IS YOUR ISSUE AND THE PEOPLE DEFENDING THIS VILE BEHAVIOR? I saw the same letter that others read before you started posting all your “exclusive” intel. Which wasn’t new intel since we’d already heard about the allegations. But thank you for your efforts. You should know that because you act like an unhinged defensive lunatic, anything good you’ve said has gone out the window. It’s hard to trust someone when they present like they’re posting from the asylum.
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Post by fixit on Apr 13, 2023 1:11:10 GMT -5
It's extremely difficult for most victims to report. It's our responsibility to protect children and bring the perps to justice. Not children's responsibility. I understand the embarrassment and humiliation that a young person might endure, but a parent can't bring an abuser to justice if their child says nothing about it.
I know that if one of my sisters got molested or even fondled, they would have told our Dad, and God help the offender.
Of course it isn't a child or young ladies responsibility to bring about justice, but I don't know why they wouldn't spill the beans to a parent they trust and rely on them to handle it.
Perhaps they just feel ashamed that they were violated? Feel guilty, don't think they'd be believed, or don't want others to know or feel sorry for them? Its a psychological puzzle.
But secrecy is a big part of the problem, because you can't resolve a hidden crime.
It's important for parents to have a close trusting relationship with their children but that is not always enough. Sometimes the child is threatened with harm to themselves or their family. It's complex. Don't forget that the perps choose and groom their victims.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 13, 2023 1:16:07 GMT -5
I understand the embarrassment and humiliation that a young person might endure, but a parent can't bring an abuser to justice if their child says nothing about it.
I know that if one of my sisters got molested or even fondled, they would have told our Dad, and God help the offender.
Of course it isn't a child or young ladies responsibility to bring about justice, but I don't know why they wouldn't spill the beans to a parent they trust and rely on them to handle it.
Perhaps they just feel ashamed that they were violated? Feel guilty, don't think they'd be believed, or don't want others to know or feel sorry for them? Its a psychological puzzle.
But secrecy is a big part of the problem, because you can't resolve a hidden crime.
It's important for parents to have a close trusting relationship with their children but that is not always enough. Sometimes the child is threatened with harm to themselves or their family. It's complex. Don't forget that the perps choose and groom their victims. Perps also groom the parents. They weasel their way into the good books of them through various subtleties and lies.
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Post by mrdobalina on Apr 13, 2023 1:19:19 GMT -5
Are you a pillow salesman? I could be wrong but my bet is "a worker" Oh John? . . . He was talking down to you, so I assumed pillow or eiderdown sales. Alan won't be happy if he catches him posting on here.
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Post by mountain on Apr 13, 2023 3:53:39 GMT -5
Again, but according to them they are "not an organisation " so how does that work ? And not only that, when a mid west overseer was charged with not reporting csa in his area he told the law that he wasn't a minister of the organization because it wasn't an organization. Thankfully the law didn't see it that way and he was charged and convicted. What does amaze me is that he is still overseer. This is the type of evasiveness that rightly and logically causes both professional and ordinary people to view the sect/ministry with deep suspicion.
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Post by Pragmatic on Apr 13, 2023 3:54:52 GMT -5
Chuck a serious allegation you make Do you have facts/evidence to support your words.... or do we correctly understand you are one of the poor souls that post on this forum... with a large chip on your shoulder and this is... yet another of your malignant disinformation statements! 🤷♂️😜 If you are a worker or an enabler you would know. Are you suggesting you dont know it happens?. I have a massive chip on my shoulder about the deliberate deception and people who through our own short comings are manipulated by charlatans who say they have all the answers. You smell like one of those manipulaters. My soul is fine, I doubt you know anything about the orginal concept behind the word given how you used it, hence why I think you are a manipulator and very likely a charlatan. Im definitely not a worker or a enabler of the system, how about you?. Remember that doesn't mean I am not a 2x2. I for one do not always agree with Chuck, but iconoclasts are required for any church to progress, otherwise it would be still stuck in the Victorian era, and prior to that, the Reformation never have occurred.
Chuck throws up interesting perspectives that deserve attention, and thinking people being cognisant of, in their considerations of things biblical. To not try and understand the context of the times, and the culture of the people when the scriptures were written only proves that some are willingly ignorant or lack the inability to think for themselves. Of course sometimes that isn't encouraged either.
My father used to complain that some workers would exhort people to "work out their own salvation" and then criticise any who asked questions about what something actually did mean when it was written, as being "not of the spirit".
The church needs unity, not uniformity, and includes thought.
I see the ad hominem attacks on here towards Chuck, Vinnyt, ChineseWhispers and others as being symptomatic of a fear, or seige mentality, because those exposing illegal activities, are interpreted as attacking the foundation of the church, and by proxy, the faith of some, which is misplaced.
CSA, and other illegal activities are just that and should be treated as such, the same as in the secular world. Immoral activities are a matter for the church.
I know from interviews with parents of victims just how devastating these events are, and the perpetrators should never be defended. I have no problem with a church helping with rehab, but the victim and victim's family come first. To date, I have not seen a successful rehab of a CSA perpetrator. One, who had done 10 years in prison for CSA including killing an underage prostitute, was out on a work experience with my company as part of his rehab, and when he saw my PA, his eyes glazed over and he described to her how he strangled the girl. He was back behind bars in no time. This is the reality of some of these people, and some are in priestly professions.
We have assisted with events for abused children through a registered charity, and every year go to see how how they are progressing, and the change in the kids faces, as they start to show time and distance from their abuse is heartwarming.
For those in NZ, I recommend Camp Quality, Family Day Out and similar charities. It is one thing to put the abusers behind bars, but we also need to help the victims, and in some cases where the abusers are the parents, then help the foster families.
I wouldn't pooh pooh what some on here say, who while obviously atheistic, may have connections in the church who talk, and know a reasonable amount of what goes on. Even if they're only half right, it should still be enough to stimulate questions.
If accusations are made, then there is a burden of proof, on both sides, and an automatic defensive posture raises more questions than answers. Are some so brain-washed that they need to be de-programmed?
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Post by mountain on Apr 13, 2023 3:55:11 GMT -5
Good point. It sure didn't work out so well for those who confronted the workers in Alberta. Maybe this time a majority of the friends will confront the workers. How many members can they afford to excommunicate and still survive and be supported? It's time the friends excommunicated the workers. Have a big clean out. Cut them adrift. Stop giving them money. So who's going to pay for their Motel bills, laptops and mobile phones? Curly?
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Post by internationalstudies on Apr 13, 2023 4:10:41 GMT -5
Chuck a serious allegation you make Do you have facts/evidence to support your words.... or do we correctly understand you are one of the poor souls that post on this forum... with a large chip on your shoulder and this is... yet another of your malignant disinformation statements! 🤷♂️😜 Pick on me you happy friend, I see you ignored my post from last week, how about you address that. Happy to repost it if you can't find it. Appreciate this clear display of your true colours, your calibre and character!
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Post by mountain on Apr 13, 2023 4:19:14 GMT -5
Vinz,
You stated the following in a recent post:
'However on the basis of being transparent I am not law enforcement but have trained many law enforcement professionals including detectives and S.W.A.T.'
You are obviously a major contributor of the information on this thread. It would be interesting to know in what capacity you trained many law enforcement professionals including detectives and S.W.A.T. members?'
Many thanks.
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Post by butterfingers on Apr 13, 2023 9:23:41 GMT -5
Do you need to go take your drugs? Excuse me butterfingers, maybe just take a step back before you start saying things like that to 1chinesewhispers. I agree, I truly apologize. That was not acceptable.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2023 9:43:21 GMT -5
I agree, I truly apologize. That was not acceptable. From what I can tell it was directed at Bob not chinesewhispers. Don't let the Queen of Broken records confuse you.
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Post by verna on Apr 13, 2023 9:44:06 GMT -5
In respect to the “200” number - is that for victims or abusers? And where did that # come from? Is that real or a guesstimate? Apparently over 200 abusers have been reported (workers, elders and friends). As far as I know it is “real”. This is not being taken lightly by those investigating it and so I am confident in saying in is not a guesstimate. Of course they are alleged abusers as they have not been convicted in a court of law.
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Post by verna on Apr 13, 2023 9:48:52 GMT -5
It's extremely difficult for most victims to report. It's our responsibility to protect children and bring the perps to justice. Not children's responsibility.
I understand the embarrassment and humiliation that a young person might endure, but a parent can't bring an abuser to justice if their child says nothing about it.
I know that if one of my sisters got molested or even fondled, they would have told our Dad, and God help the offender.
Of course it isn't a child or young ladies responsibility to bring about justice, but I don't know why they wouldn't spill the beans to a parent they trust and rely on them to handle it.
Perhaps they just feel ashamed that they were violated? Feel guilty, don't think they'd be believed, or don't want others to know or feel sorry for them? Its a psychological puzzle.
But secrecy is a big part of the problem, because you can't resolve a hidden crime.
From what I have heard, when parents bring their child’s report to the workers, they are discouraged from taking it to the authorities. Is that difficult for you to understand?
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Post by mountain on Apr 13, 2023 9:54:31 GMT -5
In respect to the “200” number - is that for victims or abusers? And where did that # come from? Is that real or a guesstimate? Apparently over 200 abusers have been reported (workers, elders and friends). As far as I know it is “real”. This is not being taken lightly by those investigating it and so I am confident in saying in is not a guesstimate. Of course they are alleged abusers as they have not been convicted in a court of law. For all those who criticised Wally for taking a loaded firearm to meetings, do any of you now fail to see the wisdom in it?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2023 10:02:27 GMT -5
Apparently over 200 abusers have been reported (workers, elders and friends). As far as I know it is “real”. This is not being taken lightly by those investigating it and so I am confident in saying in is not a guesstimate. Of course they are alleged abusers as they have not been convicted in a court of law. For all those who criticised Wally for taking a loaded firearm to meetings, do any of you now fail to see the wisdom in it?
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Post by jennyfromtheblock on Apr 13, 2023 10:16:27 GMT -5
In respect to the “200” number - is that for victims or abusers? And where did that # come from? Is that real or a guesstimate? Apparently over 200 abusers have been reported (workers, elders and friends). As far as I know it is “real”. This is not being taken lightly by those investigating it and so I am confident in saying in is not a guesstimate. Of course they are alleged abusers as they have not been convicted in a court of law. Ok. Yikes. I’m presuming that # will most likely only get worse as the investigation continues. 😔 It’s so good victims are coming forward, as hard as it is. I pray they will all have the courage and bravery to do so.
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Dean Bruer
Apr 13, 2023 11:16:51 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by openingact34 on Apr 13, 2023 11:16:51 GMT -5
I understand the embarrassment and humiliation that a young person might endure, but a parent can't bring an abuser to justice if their child says nothing about it.
I know that if one of my sisters got molested or even fondled, they would have told our Dad, and God help the offender.
Of course it isn't a child or young ladies responsibility to bring about justice, but I don't know why they wouldn't spill the beans to a parent they trust and rely on them to handle it.
Perhaps they just feel ashamed that they were violated? Feel guilty, don't think they'd be believed, or don't want others to know or feel sorry for them? Its a psychological puzzle.
But secrecy is a big part of the problem, because you can't resolve a hidden crime.
It's important for parents to have a close trusting relationship with their children but that is not always enough. Sometimes the child is threatened with harm to themselves or their family. It's complex. Don't forget that the perps choose and groom their victims. Secular society has certain ideas about consent that your comments reflect. But God's word directly contradicts that and says that it is the victim's fault if they doesn't cry out for help. "What if a man meets a girl who’s a virgin but who’s engaged to someone else, and he has sexual relations with her? If this happens in the city, bring them both out to the gate of that city where the public will stone them to death: the girl, because she was in the city and could have cried for help but didn’t, meaning she consented" -Deuteronomy 22:23-24 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+22%3A23-24&version=VOICEI don't see how true Christians who follow the Bible are ever going to just accept the worldly view and say that God is wrong
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Dean Bruer
Apr 13, 2023 11:35:31 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by jennyfromtheblock on Apr 13, 2023 11:35:31 GMT -5
It's important for parents to have a close trusting relationship with their children but that is not always enough. Sometimes the child is threatened with harm to themselves or their family. It's complex. Don't forget that the perps choose and groom their victims. Secular society has certain ideas about consent that your comments reflect. But God's word directly contradicts that and says that it is the victim's fault if they doesn't cry out for help. "What if a man meets a girl who’s a virgin but who’s engaged to someone else, and he has sexual relations with her? If this happens in the city, bring them both out to the gate of that city where the public will stone them to death: the girl, because she was in the city and could have cried for help but didn’t, meaning she consented" -Deuteronomy 22:23-24 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+22%3A23-24&version=VOICEI don't see how true Christians who follow the Bible are ever going to just accept the worldly view and say that God is wrong This is actually a great example of feminism in the Bible, equality between men and women. Stone them both!
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Post by Vinny T. on Apr 13, 2023 12:09:33 GMT -5
Do your research lady. EVERYTHING I have stated has came to pass and then some. So will you PROVE your words or are you just being more obscure? You said everyone knew of the things I said so you are now laden with the burden of proof. PROVE IT. Or just go back to being like the leaves in the wind and covering the bodies of the victims that are rife within the "truth". The facts are that the truth is a full of sexual abuse for DECADES and you're mad at me??? What in Gods name is wrong with you? I am not the one that sexually abused people or the organization that covers it up and allows it to continue over and over and over in multiple areas for decades. That is what YOU are part of and defending. Are you saying they are all lying? WHAT IS YOUR ISSUE AND THE PEOPLE DEFENDING THIS VILE BEHAVIOR? I saw the same letter that others read before you started posting all your “exclusive” intel. Which wasn’t new intel since we’d already heard about the allegations. But thank you for your efforts. You should know that because you act like an unhinged defensive lunatic, anything good you’ve said has gone out the window. It’s hard to trust someone when they present like they’re posting from the asylum. I am an unhinged lunatic? What are you referring to asking you to prove your words? No my first post gave alot of new info at the time. Unless everyone was lying that replied. Both instances cannot be true. I am not saying I have exclusive intel. I have never said that. I am not the one losing it here lady that's you. You don't like being called on your false posts. YOU insulted me multiple times and again several times in your last post. I have done nothing to come across unhinged. That's on you again. I am sorry but the facts are that there are MANY MANY people in the truth have sexually assaulted hundreds of people the entire time the truth has been around and gotten away with it, Because the standard procedure is the move the perpetrator and shame/shun the victims. I did not make that policy they did. I am sorry you are upset that info you already knew is becoming public knowledge. Again that's on them and you. I have nothing to do with it. I am not acting unhinged that's you, I am not saying my information is exclusive you said that, I am not acting like I'm in an asylum again that's on you. Have a good day
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Post by Vinny T. on Apr 13, 2023 13:17:40 GMT -5
Apparently over 200 abusers have been reported (workers, elders and friends). As far as I know it is “real”. This is not being taken lightly by those investigating it and so I am confident in saying in is not a guesstimate. Of course they are alleged abusers as they have not been convicted in a court of law. Ok. Yikes. I’m presuming that # will most likely only get worse as the investigation continues. 😔 It’s so good victims are coming forward, as hard as it is. I pray they will all have the courage and bravery to do so. I guess I was accurate.
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Post by fixit on Apr 13, 2023 14:33:21 GMT -5
I agree, I truly apologize. That was not acceptable. From what I can tell it was directed at Bob not chinesewhispers. Don't let the Queen of Broken records confuse you. The apology was the right thing to do, and commendable. It went over your head.
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Post by snow on Apr 13, 2023 14:48:12 GMT -5
Wow, it’s been awhile, for someone so invested in this. Do you need to go take your drugs? Lay off. Attacking chinesewhispers is not a good look ever. You have no idea what they have gone through and this question is just disgusting. update: I see reading further in this thread that you have apologized. Thank you.
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Post by snow on Apr 13, 2023 15:16:19 GMT -5
I have also heard 200+. The link to the page where the private investigator gives information is voicesforthetruth.org/95-2/The letter there states 100 but that was dated March 29th so it could very well be well over 200 by now. A lot of people have been reached and asked to reach out, so I imagine many who may have kept silent in the past are coming forward for the first time.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 13, 2023 15:54:18 GMT -5
It's extremely difficult for most victims to report. It's our responsibility to protect children and bring the perps to justice. Not children's responsibility. I understand the embarrassment and humiliation that a young person might endure, but a parent can't bring an abuser to justice if their child says nothing about it.
I know that if one of my sisters got molested or even fondled, they would have told our Dad, and God help the offender.
Of course it isn't a child or young ladies responsibility to bring about justice, but I don't know why they wouldn't spill the beans to a parent they trust and rely on them to handle it.
Perhaps they just feel ashamed that they were violated? Feel guilty, don't think they'd be believed, or don't want others to know or feel sorry for them? Its a psychological puzzle.
But secrecy is a big part of the problem, because you can't resolve a hidden crime.
You're forgetting that a normal response to a child's nasty worker accusation is that they will (1) accuse the child of lying, and/or (2) forbid the child to speak about it, and possibly (3) punish the child in some manner. If you don't get this, you probably had especially good parents growing up.
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Post by mountain on Apr 13, 2023 15:57:34 GMT -5
Ok. Yikes. I’m presuming that # will most likely only get worse as the investigation continues. 😔 It’s so good victims are coming forward, as hard as it is. I pray they will all have the courage and bravery to do so. I guess I was accurate. Hi Vinz, You stated the following in a recent post: 'However on the basis of being transparent I am not law enforcement but have trained many law enforcement professionals including detectives and S.W.A.T.' You are obviously a major contributor of the information on this thread. It would be interesting to know in what capacity you trained many law enforcement professionals including detectives and S.W.A.T. members?' Many thanks.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 13, 2023 16:02:10 GMT -5
Apparently over 200 abusers have been reported (workers, elders and friends). As far as I know it is “real”. This is not being taken lightly by those investigating it and so I am confident in saying in is not a guesstimate. Of course they are alleged abusers as they have not been convicted in a court of law. For all those who criticised Wally for taking a loaded firearm to meetings, do any of you now fail to see the wisdom in it? I fail to see the wisdom of it. I would bet none of these offenses occurred during a meeting.
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