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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 12, 2023 6:15:55 GMT -5
If they have a hierarchy then they can be sued and the victim survivors compensated, so they will never admit they are an organisation. I would say the 200 is the tip of the iceberg within the whole group. Hi Roselyn, can you confirm the figure 200 refers to instances of abuse, or to the number of different perpetrators? As Dan alludes to, two or three persons could commit 200 instances of abuse over many years. Thanks as always. Not confirmed mountain, just going by what has been posted on the Voices For The Truth website. Plus those that I know of in Australia. This would include Elders and members who have abused as well. |
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Post by deepdeep on Apr 12, 2023 6:26:29 GMT -5
Hi Roselyn, can you confirm the figure 200 refers to instances of abuse, or to the number of different perpetrators? As Dan alludes to, two or three persons could commit 200 instances of abuse over many years. Thanks as always. Not confirmed mountain, just going by what has been posted on the Voices For The Truth website. Plus those that I know of in Australia. This would include Elders and members who have abused as well. If it's abuse... It would be the tip of the tip of the iceberg. I would be surprised if 2x2 members suffered abuse at different rates than the population at large. Math time! According to the CDC, one in four girls and one in thirteen boys experience CSA. If there were only 200 actual incidents, that would mean the entire child population within the 2x2 group is somewhere around 1226. The actual number of kids that experience CSA within the 2x2 is orders of magnitude higher than 200. |
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Post by Dan on Apr 12, 2023 6:45:01 GMT -5
In criminal matters the correct authorities to report to are the police, not workers. The impression must not be given that the workers are to be the first point of reporting, especially on account of their adverse approach to organisation and responsibility. At least in the UK there are evidential factors regarding who a female first reports or makes a statement to, after she has been sexually assaulted. Until the workers fully join the 21st century in these and other matters, they should have as little involvement as possible in the early stages of an investigation. They will on hinder.
I agree that reporting any crime to the police should be step one. But any investigation would require pertinent information from the group (Workers). If they are left unaware and kept in the dark, then any help relevant to an investigation would be limited.
I wouldn't hold your breath on the church joining the 21st century, they will remain unnamed because Jesus didn't name his church or start a new denomination, and you can't suck money out of an unpaid rogue preacher that's gone bad  If they have a hierarchy then they can be sued and the victim survivors compensated, so they will never admit they are an organisation. I would say the 200 is the tip of the iceberg within the whole group.
I agree, with no head honcho or official church board, who do you sue? Victims could sue the individual offender, but a Worker has no income or wages to garnish. I suppose they could sue the group (Workers) for a lack of oversight which contributed to the abuse, but who would you serve with a lawsuit? I reckon they could track DB's credit card and attach a lean against any money left in the associated bank account? But I highly doubt anything like that is probable.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 12, 2023 7:24:24 GMT -5
Who’s holding overseers accountable? I would think other workers and elders need to step up.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2023 8:44:22 GMT -5
Your glee is noted, God is watching... Your indifference to the suffering of victims is noted. God is watching. As if you have a clue. Authoritarian. You would make a victim of everyone in America and elsewhere that wishes to defend themselves in your irrational vendetta against firearms. And you just stepped up and defended someone that said a pedo was the best thing to happen to us(2x2's). You should be stripped of your Bishoprick now. God is watching scientist... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2023 8:49:38 GMT -5
Thats not the law in some states. LE first then the head of the organization is required sometimes. How does that work when they are not "an organisation" @wally ? The law won't care about personal definitions... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2023 8:52:23 GMT -5
Dan, I'm sorry but that is not how the world works. One or two bad apples puts the whole work under suspicion. If it didn't, then why the need for secrecy and cover ups? One or two always brings with it the thinking .... 'I wonder how many more there are?' There's a responsibility to answer that question!
In this particular case, I think secrecy and any thought of a cover-up was thrown out the window. To make every decent Worker a suspect is unfair, its like condemning all the apostles because of one Judas. I agree that more oversight needs to be put in place and that illicit conduct should never be concealed, but bringing shame upon the innocent because of the actions of a few isn't justice. i.e; If you worked with someone who turned out to be a thief, would you appreciate being lumped under the same suspicious cloud as the thief?
Logic is lost on most TMB'rs brother... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2023 8:54:12 GMT -5
In this particular case, I think secrecy and any thought of a cover-up was thrown out the window. To make every decent Worker a suspect is unfair, its like condemning all the apostles because of one Judas. Again we have difficulty in getting others to understand 'suspicion.' It is the whole work that is under suspicion. It is a general thing, not individualistic. Just look at the situation now? The whole work across the world is under suspicion. And yes, if the Work doesn't do the correct thing everywhere, it indeed deserves to be condemned.I agree that more oversight needs to be put in place and that illicit conduct should never be concealed, but bringing shame upon the innocent because of the actions of a few isn't justice. i.e; If you worked with someone who turned out to be a thief, would you appreciate being lumped under the same suspicious cloud as the thief?
I'm afraid the things you allude to happen everywhere in the real world during the early stages of an investigation, until specific lines of enquiry narrow things down. In my country there is such a common law crime of 'Public Mischief' which is basically making a false claim of a crime having occurred. The essence of this crime is 'making the lieges liable to suspicion.' Make no mistake, the work everywhere is under suspicion, until investigations show otherwise. How many professing people would like to have their children sitting on the laps of ANY unrelated workers at the moment?
A lot of false accusers in the USA get off Scott free... |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 12, 2023 9:17:30 GMT -5
Your indifference to the suffering of victims is noted. God is watching. As if you have a clue. Authoritarian. You would make a victim of everyone in America and elsewhere that wishes to defend themselves in your irrational vendetta against firearms. And you just stepped up and defended someone that said a pedo was the best thing to happen to us(2x2's). You should be stripped of your Bishopprick now. God is watching scientist... Well, that went over your head. |
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Post by mountain on Apr 12, 2023 9:28:50 GMT -5
A lot of false accusers in the USA get off Scott free... A lot of them get off Scot free here! |
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Post by matisse on Apr 12, 2023 9:32:43 GMT -5
I think "Ministry Safe" is a good thing for any minister to take. But, I almost think going to Al Anon would be good too. Even though it was founded upon people who need help with the alcoholics in their lives, co-dependency runs through all walks and circles. It's about not getting enmeshed with other's problems, about how best to address other's problems; all while taking care of yourself. How to not be an enabler. How to set limits and healthy boundaries. "ACOA", Adult Children of Alcoholics is worth a look, as well, for insight into the effects of growing up in an extended dysfunctional family. |
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 12, 2023 9:52:13 GMT -5
If one teacher in a school is guilty of CSA is every teacher a suspect? Is every teacher in the school district suspected? Every teacher in the state, or the nation or the world? Well, maybe there needs to be more awareness and victims need to be taken more seriously! But I highly doubt every single teacher is guilty, I really do. Let’s be reasonable here.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 12, 2023 10:13:01 GMT -5
I think "Ministry Safe" is a good thing for any minister to take. But, I almost think going to Al Anon would be good too. Even though it was founded upon people who need help with the alcoholics in their lives, co-dependency runs through all walks and circles. It's about not getting enmeshed with other's problems, about how best to address other's problems; all while taking care of yourself. How to not be an enabler. How to set limits and healthy boundaries. "ACOA", Adult Children of Alcoholics is worth a look, as well, for insight into the effects of growing up in an extended dysfunctional family. Yes I am familiar with ACOA. I think it is the atmosphere of secrecy and cover ups that creates a lot of the dysfunction as well as doesn’t really address the heart of the problem. Easier to avoid it and call it being nice…. Jesus wasn’t always “nice”. |
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Post by mountain on Apr 12, 2023 10:43:52 GMT -5
If one teacher in a school is guilty of CSA is every teacher a suspect? Is every teacher in the school district suspected? Every teacher in the state, or the nation or the world? Well, maybe there needs to be more awareness and victims need to be taken more seriously! But I highly doubt every single teacher is guilty, I really do. Let’s be reasonable here. Pegs, you should know there is a difference between being a suspect and being guilty. If a person has been found guilty they are no longer a suspect. Back in the 90s I was involved in investigating a case of CSA at a residential boy's school. There was a staff of nearly twenty male teachers. One boy later in life complained that he had been homosexually abused by one of the teachers but couldn't remember his name. At the outset and of necessity all teachers who had been working at the time of the abuse were under suspicion. At the end of the investigation some 35 boys now men came forward with complaints they had been sexually abused during their stay and 7 or 8 accused were traced, five of whom had been teachers at the school, with the other three being homosexual associates of the teachers. The case resulted in the residential school and two others being closed down. Now looking back it can be said that about 15 teachers were innocent and didn't deserve to be under suspicion. However hindsight after an investigation is a grand thing, but at the beginning it can be like walking into a dark room where you have to feel (sorry!) your way around until the light exposes the truth. Once the truth is known, the perspective changes. If a suspect or suspects have not been identified, suspicion must fall on all whom it could have been until the matter is resolved. The Bruer case is a huge extension of the residential school case, sort of. As far as I am aware there are many people coming forward, naming a number of perpetrators across the globe. The primary suspects I believe are workers, although friends and elders have also been named. There is much that is unknown yet and much to be revealed. We just don't know the full extent of what skeletons are to come out of the closet. At the moment anyone in the ministry might be named by someone as having committed abuse. We just don't know. The whole ministry is rightly under suspicion. That does not mean that most are not innocent or are guilty. It simply means that until enquiries show otherwise they cannot be excluded if they have had the ability and opportunity to commit any of the abuses being reported. No one is saying they are guilty and the great majority have nothing to fear, but until the investigation reveals specific lines of enquiry they are unfortunately tarred with the broad brush. It is early days. There is a big difference between entering a tunnel with little light and much darkness and exiting when we can see things more clearly. The Catholic Church has faced up to the fact that every member of their priesthood has been under suspicion during their big CSA scandals, until all the perps had been identified. If a suspect is identified early in an enquiry and there are no indications of other persons being involved in the matter, then there is no need to look for other suspects. It's when the identity of suspects is unknown that the net has to trawl as wide as it needs to and may include anyone who has had the ability and opportunity to commit the crime in question. This Bruer case is unusual in its extent. It involves the ministry in many countries, yet we don't know the details of the allegations or who they are made against. Also the matter is ongoing with many people coming forward. We do not know who is involved or where and when the incidents took place. As details fall into place the number of suspects can be narrowed down, even further once they have been identified. |
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Post by verna on Apr 12, 2023 11:09:38 GMT -5
If they have a hierarchy then they can be sued and the victim survivors compensated, so they will never admit they are an organisation. I would say the 200 is the tip of the iceberg within the whole group. Hi Roselyn, can you confirm the figure 200 refers to instances of abuse, or to the number of different perpetrators? As Dan alludes to, two or three persons could commit 200 instances of abuse over many years. Thanks as always. From what I understand it is over 200 abusers (different perpetrators- including workers, elders, members). Instances of abuse would undoubtedly be greater. |
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Post by verna on Apr 12, 2023 11:14:24 GMT -5
In criminal matters the correct authorities to report to are the police, not workers. The impression must not be given that the workers are to be the first point of reporting, especially on account of their adverse approach to organisation and responsibility. At least in the UK there are evidential factors regarding who a female first reports or makes a statement to, after she has been sexually assaulted. Until the workers fully join the 21st century in these and other matters, they should have as little involvement as possible in the early stages of an investigation. They will on hinder.
I agree that reporting any crime to the police should be step one. But any investigation would require pertinent information from the group (Workers). If they are left unaware and kept in the dark, then any help relevant to an investigation would be limited.
I wouldn't hold your breath on the church joining the 21st century, they will remain unnamed because Jesus didn't name his church or start a new denomination, and you can't suck money out of an unpaid rogue preacher that's gone bad If they have a hierarchy then they can be sued and the victim survivors compensated, so they will never admit they are an organisation. I would say the 200 is the tip of the iceberg within the whole group.
I agree, with no head honcho or official church board, who do you sue? Victims could sue the individual offender, but a Worker has no income or wages to garnish. I suppose they could sure the group (Workers) for a lack of oversight which contributed to the abuse, but who would you serve with a lawsuit? I reckon they could track DB's credit card and attach a lean against any money left in the associated bank account? But I highly doubt anything like that is probable.
Organized like the mafia. I think someone said that and I think it may hold some truth. 🤷♂️ |
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Post by verna on Apr 12, 2023 11:16:26 GMT -5
Your indifference to the suffering of victims is noted. God is watching. As if you have a clue. Authoritarian. You would make a victim of everyone in America and elsewhere that wishes to defend themselves in your irrational vendetta against firearms. And you just stepped up and defended someone that said a pedo was the best thing to happen to us(2x2's). You should be stripped of your Bishopprick now. God is watching scientist... Bishopprick? Is that a thing? 😂 |
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peggysullivan
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Dean Bruer
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 12, 2023 11:17:02 GMT -5
Yes I know that… my main point is this. Just because one teacher is guilty does that make all teachers a suspect? Or is the system suspect that might do things which allow or cover up abuses?
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Post by mountain on Apr 12, 2023 12:10:08 GMT -5
Hi Roselyn, can you confirm the figure 200 refers to instances of abuse, or to the number of different perpetrators? As Dan alludes to, two or three persons could commit 200 instances of abuse over many years. Thanks as always. From what I understand it is over 200 abusers (different perpetrators- including workers, elders, members). Instances of abuse would undoubtedly be greater. The incredulity of the figure makes it unlikely, however the understanding of Vernz has greater authenticity. |
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Post by mountain on Apr 12, 2023 12:14:01 GMT -5
In criminal matters the correct authorities to report to are the police, not workers. The impression must not be given that the workers are to be the first point of reporting, especially on account of their adverse approach to organisation and responsibility. At least in the UK there are evidential factors regarding who a female first reports or makes a statement to, after she has been sexually assaulted. Until the workers fully join the 21st century in these and other matters, they should have as little involvement as possible in the early stages of an investigation. They will on hinder. I agree that reporting any crime to the police should be step one. But any investigation would require pertinent information from the group (Workers). If they are left unaware and kept in the dark, then any help relevant to an investigation would be limited.
Dan, after the matter is reported to the police, anyone who could assist during the course of enquiries would be contacted/interviewed as a matter of course. The workers would be contacted in due course.
I wouldn't hold your breath on the church joining the 21st century, they will remain unnamed because Jesus didn't name his church or start a new denomination, and you can't suck money out of an unpaid rogue preacher that's gone bad If they have a hierarchy then they can be sued and the victim survivors compensated, so they will never admit they are an organisation. I would say the 200 is the tip of the iceberg within the whole group. I agree, with no head honcho or official church board, who do you sue? Victims could sue the individual offender, but a Worker has no income or wages to garnish. I suppose they could sure the group (Workers) for a lack of oversight which contributed to the abuse, but who would you serve with a lawsuit? I reckon they could track DB's credit card and attach a lean against any money left in the associated bank account? But I highly doubt anything like that is probable.
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Post by mrdobalina on Apr 12, 2023 12:30:10 GMT -5
I don't believe I bring peace by moving trouble making workers interstate or overseas.....how about you? Chuck you know everything about everything and also seem one of the most happy, pleasant at peace guys I've met in a long time. It comes through in every post you make. I'm also pleased that you get helpful cathartic release with posting. With appreciation!😀👍 p.s. Now post so you can have the last word and I'll leave you to your nonsense.🤷♂️😜🤣 Are you a pillow salesman? |
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 12, 2023 12:39:07 GMT -5
Yes I know that… my main point is this. Just because one teacher is guilty does that make all teachers a suspect? Or is the system suspect that might do things which allow or cover up abuses? Keeping in mind that most teachers are not abusing nor do school systems promote abuse. In fact the schools do a lot to combat abuse. So, maybe the fellowship could learn from the schools how they have handled abuses and what they do to prevent them. However the schools are not without fault on this and they have learned the hard way. They have been known to move "problem" teachers to another school or another district. OR they move problem students. As far as the fellowship goes....one of the main things that needs to change and CAN change right now is for the hush hush secrecy to stop. Be candid about things. That doesn't mean one goes around spouting offensive remarks indiscriminately, but they should not feel like they can't talk about it for fear of "whatever". Be candid. It can be done very effectively. |
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 12, 2023 14:53:41 GMT -5
Who’s holding overseers accountable? I would think other workers and elders need to step up. My answer to this would be (deep sigh). It's complicated. During all the unrest in Alberta, with the incorporation, and a number of other issues in the 1990's, some very wise and deeply responsible elders confronted the workers at a meeting. My understanding was that they were mostly rebuffed. Ones who did not somewhat back down were eventually expelled from the fellowship. So, I'm not sure what the options are if you want to stand up for what you think is right. My choice was voting with my feet, a choice I do not regret to this day. The sentiment that I occasionally expressed to ones closest to me in my exiting process was "I would defy God himself if I thought he was wrong." I still would. I have zero inside knowledge, but from my observations through the years, I think the overseer positions are deeply political. I think someone on a thread here suggested it might be like the mafia. I don't think so, it is more like a franchise operation. The holder(s) of a franchise in one area have the tacit agreement to not overly interfere in another franchise area. Of course, there are appointees and alliances that can consolidate some semblance of power. I think this is a result of the George Walker/Jack Carroll split of North America, where they had some fundamental disagreements over some issues, but agreed to largely let the other run things the way they wanted. But what do I know? |
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 12, 2023 16:04:16 GMT -5
I had a friend one time who was teaching and across the hall from her classroom was this male teacher; married with kids. Anyways...my friend and other employees at the school noticed he got close to a female student, a teenager and she would go to his room after school was out. And she did it on a regular basis, apparently. And then, they were pretty sure something more than just helping with homework was going on. The girl evnetually got pregnant. Anyway, more than my friend knew about this and it carried on for some time. This was in the 90's, if I remember correctly. My friend was telling me about this and I asked her if anyone reported it to the principal. And no one had. She said things like, well, we haven't actually seen them do anything, but we're pretty sure they are having a relationship; probably sexual. I told my friend, "You have to report this. You have no choice. It is simply not right. And he's married. And now she is pregnant.". So it got reported and he lost his job and I don't know what happened to him after that except he did lose his marriage too.
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Post by fixit on Apr 12, 2023 16:32:31 GMT -5
I had a friend one time who was teaching and across the hall from her classroom was this male teacher; married with kids. Anyways...my friend and other employees at the school noticed he got close to a female student, a teenager and she would go to his room after school was out. And she did it on a regular basis, apparently. And then, they were pretty sure something more than just helping with homework was going on. The girl evnetually got pregnant. Anyway, more than my friend knew about this and it carried on for some time. This was in the 90's, if I remember correctly. My friend was telling me about this and I asked her if anyone reported it to the principal. And no one had. She said things like, well, we haven't actually seen them do anything, but we're pretty sure they are having a relationship; probably sexual. I told my friend, "You have to report this. You have no choice. It is simply not right. And he's married. And now she is pregnant.". So it got reported and he lost his job and I don't know what happened to him after that except he did lose his marriage too. If those with concerns had reported what they saw and the school had acted on it, there probably would have been a much better outcome for: 1. The girl 2. The teacher 3. The teacher's family If it was about helping the student the teacher should have been meeting the student in a more open setting e.g. the school library. |
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 12, 2023 16:51:12 GMT -5
I had a friend one time who was teaching and across the hall from her classroom was this male teacher; married with kids. Anyways...my friend and other employees at the school noticed he got close to a female student, a teenager and she would go to his room after school was out. And she did it on a regular basis, apparently. And then, they were pretty sure something more than just helping with homework was going on. The girl evnetually got pregnant. Anyway, more than my friend knew about this and it carried on for some time. This was in the 90's, if I remember correctly. My friend was telling me about this and I asked her if anyone reported it to the principal. And no one had. She said things like, well, we haven't actually seen them do anything, but we're pretty sure they are having a relationship; probably sexual. I told my friend, "You have to report this. You have no choice. It is simply not right. And he's married. And now she is pregnant.". So it got reported and he lost his job and I don't know what happened to him after that except he did lose his marriage too. So she didn’t stay teaching at that school. She left after a couple years. But in talking to her more about it, she indicated several people knew what was going on but no one reported it. And no encouraged her to report it. It bothered them. But they didn’t report it. After working at her next job a few years she came to realize that the culture of her last job was such that people were less likely to report other teachers. Granted, it’s not easy to turn a colleague in like that. It takes courage. |
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 12, 2023 16:51:37 GMT -5
I had a friend one time who was teaching and across the hall from her classroom was this male teacher; married with kids. Anyways...my friend and other employees at the school noticed he got close to a female student, a teenager and she would go to his room after school was out. And she did it on a regular basis, apparently. And then, they were pretty sure something more than just helping with homework was going on. The girl evnetually got pregnant. Anyway, more than my friend knew about this and it carried on for some time. This was in the 90's, if I remember correctly. My friend was telling me about this and I asked her if anyone reported it to the principal. And no one had. She said things like, well, we haven't actually seen them do anything, but we're pretty sure they are having a relationship; probably sexual. I told my friend, "You have to report this. You have no choice. It is simply not right. And he's married. And now she is pregnant.". So it got reported and he lost his job and I don't know what happened to him after that except he did lose his marriage too. If those with concerns had reported what they saw and the school had acted on it, there probably would have been a much better outcome for: 1. The girl 2. The teacher 3. The teacher's family If it was about helping the student the teacher should have been meeting the student in a more open setting e.g. the school library. Absolutely. |
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Post by snow on Apr 12, 2023 17:37:16 GMT -5
Any organization that might have a sexual offender in their ranks ought to be notified. The only reason not to inform them is if you fear a cover-up instead of a resolution. And I understand the reluctance of a victim to put a spot light on any sexual abuse if past responses were to simply move the accused offender to another state.
Bruer was not stopped because no one seemed to know until after the fact. And remember, if not for Doyle Smith turning over the laptop and sounding the alarm, the authorities would have nothing to investigate. Two women came forward, Doyle listened, took what they said to heart, and took the appropriate action... What more would you have him do? Everyone was ultimately notified of the DB situation. I think it was/is being handled professionally.
Yes. I am naive, this is all new to me. But they did sideline Mark Huddle for the accusation of having a 12 year old in his lap. So they can inactivate a Worker while a matter is investigated or at least suspend them from staying in homes with children.
The Workers aren't gossiping about this particular offense, everything has been revealed. They did preserve evidence, besides accidentally wiping Bruer's cell phone clean.
I'm not implying that it should be left to the Workers to self-investigate when laws may have been broken, but just that they should be notified so immediate action can be taken to minimize damages.
Again, but according to them they are "not an organisation " so how does that work ? And not only that, when a mid west overseer was charged with not reporting csa in his area he told the law that he wasn't a minister of the organization because it wasn't an organization. Thankfully the law didn't see it that way and he was charged and convicted. What does amaze me is that he is still overseer. |
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