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Post by mrdobalina on Apr 4, 2023 14:04:27 GMT -5
If a girl is walking home from a night out down a dark alley and she is sexually accosted by a man in uniform, possibly a police officer. She can give no other description other than 'he looked like a police officer.' During the initial stages of the investigation, every police officer who was working in that area at the particular time is a suspect. Not only that, the possibility of it being a security guard or other similarly clad person, will likewise be suspects until some definite lines of enquiry narrow down the search for the culprit. This most often happens very quickly, but there are occasions where the investigation progresses slowly. A teacher leaves a classroom full with 30 kids to go to the powder room for whatever reason women do this. She returns ten minutes later to discover her rubber is missing from her desk. She knows it must have been one of the class who took it. She asks who has the rubber but no one owns up. All 30 of the class are suspects at that point until wee Davey (the grass) speaks out and says he saw young Wally and young Snow throwing it at each other. A definite line of enquiry has been reached and suspicion drifts away from most of the class as young Wally and Young Snow become the focus of the enquiry. The rubber is traced and the two accused receive their just retribution. At break time young Davey gets duffed up for telling the teacher. And how does that relate to every worker on the planet being a suspect who needs to be questioned? Yeah, let's just close ranks & leave them to continue offending unchecked, it's God's will.
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Post by mrdobalina on Apr 4, 2023 14:05:46 GMT -5
But don't let the facts get in the way of you calling hypocrisy against whoever you can. Guess it distracts from dealing with the hypocrisy of your own church. Go back and look at that internal list if you're so concerned about hypocrisy and REALLY want to make a difference in the world. You're part of the most hypocritical religious group on earth. And I say that advisedly. Yes, there is hypocrisy. I accept that. But the most hypocritical religious group on earth? That's a stretch. Does it really matter wether they win the hypocrisy race or simply compete at a very high level? "Hey, it's OK, there's a group that's slightly worse than us, as you were"
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Post by fixit on Apr 4, 2023 14:08:30 GMT -5
And how does that relate to every worker on the planet being a suspect who needs to be questioned? Yeah, let's just close ranks & leave them to continue offending unchecked, it's God's will. Nonsense. But let's not revert to the Salem witch trial era.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 4, 2023 14:08:45 GMT -5
We are very much in the land of the unknown at the moment. This Bruer thing may turn out to be a lot less than first imagined, but on the other hand it may involve some of the places he visited. Take your homeland as an example. Now I don't know if Bruer ever visited NZ, but let's just say that information comes to light from his laptop or other source, that he and one or two NZ workers molested young children during a visit there? Let's just say that one of the two NZ workers is identified and the other is not. Immediately this places all NZ workers under suspicion until an investigation clears them. This can be got very quickly if the unknown worker becomes identified early on. They have all been under suspicion because it is known that one of them is a perp and will remain so until the perp is identified. At the moment we have a scenario where many States and countries may be involved (or maybe none). If similar types of information come to light that would provoke an investigation then a similar situation applies in the countries involved. In that case you would have a crime to investigate. Can you have suspects before you have a crime? Yes. That is why countries have spy agencies to monitor the subversive wally's that plan mischief. The other scenarios I think of are the drunk staggering towards his car to drive it; the known shoplifter who enters a shop and so on.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 4, 2023 14:21:10 GMT -5
The person that commented on Deans remembrance page at number 122 obviously knew the real Dean quite well. 122. B E (from Ohio) Loved the thought that Dean lived – “Anytime, Anyplace, Anyone.” And any motel for Rooter Bruer.
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Post by snow on Apr 4, 2023 14:22:23 GMT -5
I think what I'm understanding Mountain to say is that, here we are again with yet another incidence of CSA/SA by a worker. This worker had over 400 glowing comments on his memorial page. This worker was never in a million years suspected to be a predator by the friends. So if he now has been implicated and survivors of his actions have come forward, the logical question is, who can be trusted anymore? It will take a long time before complacency settles in for this group and imo that's good and bad. Bad because they feel so betrayed and good because it will make it harder for it to happen to others in the future. I think that this time it's reached a very large number of the friends vs only a few in an isolated area. Because he traveled so extensively, he has people from all over the world that trusted him implicitly and now they find out what he was. It's going to be a long time before people have the same level of trust for the upper echelons of power, if ever. While I hope that some level of trust can be reached again, I hope it's never at the level that allows for predators to have better access to future victims. Trust can come again, but only if some things change. I recognize that the workers might not like those changes and I imagine the friends might not like them either, but if they continue to stay in the friends homes that have children, they open those children up to the possibility. Protecting them is far more important than the 'good feeling' that might be there for the workers that stay and the families that house them. It's got to be obvious now that even with the training and codes of conduct, that predators don't listen to them. So everyone suffers when the few do offend. But children need to be safe, bottom line. Sorry Snow but you are mistaken about my position. I am making comments from training and 30 years experience in the field of criminal investigations. It is not about trust or here we go again. It is about a professional approach using standard investigative procedures in order to arrive at the truth of the matter, taking care not to overlook important lines of enquiry. Regarding the risk from CSA etc, yes education and awareness can be a big help in combatting this but it is nowhere adequate enough if a young girl is faced with a fearsome brute of a man (nice, plausible, kindly guys can turn out this way). What is needed are procedures that limit opportunities for temptation to take root. I have gone over some of these before. Thank you Mountain. Obviously the law and investigations are not about trust.
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Post by snow on Apr 4, 2023 14:32:35 GMT -5
There have been parents, siblings, relatives, schoolteachers, scoutmasters ....the list goes on. I don't understand how you can question "suspects" unless you have a specific crime. This is precisely why if someone has a valid suspicion of CSA it needs to be reported to the authorities. Until that is done, I'm afraid not much will ever be resolved. Sadly, there are cases in which even after things are reported justice is not brought in a timely fashion if at all. CPS only does so much. APS only does so much. Social workers only do so much. Cops only do so much. In many cases, it's a Dr. or nurse or teacher who are at the front lines of battle for these kids; they are perhaps the first ones who become aware of abuse. It has to start somewhere. But, ANYONE can make a report to CPS or APS. That's how it is here in Canada. If you suspect child abuse, you under the obligation to report it. That's why when I read here about allegations made about workers that are in the work that are 'suspect', aren't reported, I wonder why not?
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Post by Grant on Apr 4, 2023 14:33:05 GMT -5
If a girl is walking home from a night out down a dark alley and she is sexually accosted by a man in uniform, possibly a police officer. She can give no other description other than 'he looked like a police officer.' During the initial stages of the investigation, every police officer who was working in that area at the particular time is a suspect. Not only that, the possibility of it being a security guard or other similarly clad person, will likewise be suspects until some definite lines of enquiry narrow down the search for the culprit. This most often happens very quickly, but there are occasions where the investigation progresses slowly. A teacher leaves a classroom full with 30 kids to go to the powder room for whatever reason women do this. She returns ten minutes later to discover her rubber is missing from her desk. She knows it must have been one of the class who took it. She asks who has the rubber but no one owns up. All 30 of the class are suspects at that point until wee Davey (the grass) speaks out and says he saw young Wally and young Snow throwing it at each other. A definite line of enquiry has been reached and suspicion drifts away from most of the class as young Wally and Young Snow become the focus of the enquiry. The rubber is traced and the two accused receive their just retribution. At break time young Davey gets duffed up for telling the teacher. And how does that relate to every worker on the planet being a suspect who needs to be questioned? Everyone is drug tested in certain situations such as some job applications because of the actions of a few. Cars are stopped at random and drivers tested for substance use because of the actions of a few. Protocols are put in place to protect children because of the actions of a few. Some places are shut down while an investigation takes place.
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Post by Grant on Apr 4, 2023 14:44:31 GMT -5
Weak, after 20 or 30 or 40 years in anything just because you aren't the boss doesn't mean you don't know or have a clue about who, what, why, how and where of what is said, done or going on especially methods. It's not a vacuum... Thank you Wally. It’s not a vacuum for sure. It’s a network. Anyone that works in the system is boots on the ground. No one said you don't have a clue. I'm saying working in a procescutor's office does not make you a procescutor, neither does working in a Psychiatrist's office make you a Psychiatrist or working in a doctor's office make you a doctor and the list goes on. A big difference between the 2.
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Post by fixit on Apr 4, 2023 14:47:33 GMT -5
And how does that relate to every worker on the planet being a suspect who needs to be questioned? Everyone is drug tested in certain situations such as some job applications because of the actions of a few. Cars are stopped at random and drivers tested for substance use because of the actions of a few. Protocols are put in place to protect children because of the actions of a few. Some places are shut down while an investigation takes place. That's all true. I'm 100% supportive of protocols to protect children. But the police don't treat as suspects and question everyone who leaves every bar - on the grounds that people who've been drinking alcohol commit rape and murder.
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Post by mrdobalina on Apr 4, 2023 14:54:11 GMT -5
The person that commented on Deans remembrance page at number 122 obviously knew the real Dean quite well. 122. B E (from Ohio) Loved the thought that Dean lived – “Anytime, Anyplace, Anyone.” And any motel for Rooter Bruer. Yep pretty much nobody was safe anywhere at any time.
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Post by mrdobalina on Apr 4, 2023 14:56:56 GMT -5
Everyone is drug tested in certain situations such as some job applications because of the actions of a few. Cars are stopped at random and drivers tested for substance use because of the actions of a few. Protocols are put in place to protect children because of the actions of a few. Some places are shut down while an investigation takes place. That's all true. I'm 100% supportive of protocols to protect children. But the police don't treat as suspects and question everyone who leaves every bar - on the grounds that people who've been drinking alcohol commit rape and murder. We can probably leave it right there. You have made it quite clear that you put the comfort of workers far ahead of the need for transparency and justice.
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Post by Grant on Apr 4, 2023 15:08:08 GMT -5
Everyone is drug tested in certain situations such as some job applications because of the actions of a few. Cars are stopped at random and drivers tested for substance use because of the actions of a few. Protocols are put in place to protect children because of the actions of a few. Some places are shut down while an investigation takes place. That's all true. I'm 100% supportive of protocols to protect children. But the police don't treat as suspects and question everyone who leaves every bar - on the grounds that people who've been drinking alcohol commit rape and murder. If there was a rape or murder in a bar then everyone would be treated as suspects to determine if the person was acting alone or others were involved.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 4, 2023 15:11:15 GMT -5
This will my last post here. There is way too much Anti-American sentiment here for my liking. [ I am not talking about everyone here. ] I am very sorry to hear this. I think you have made very valuable and balanced contributions to the discussions here. I am not following closely enough to know what may have triggered the Anti-American sentiment comment, but I am sorry. (I tend to stay off the political threads here, because every time I read them, I revise my assessment of the collective IQ of these boards downward, by at least 20%.) I think you are badly needed here: My understanding is that Bruer is unlikely to have been an isolated individual in all this. This is the first time (~38 years in, ~26 years since leaving) that it has really crossed my mind that the mishandling of sexual misconduct/CSA with the fellowship was due to anything other than ignorance and incompetence. It is past time for a whole lot of honesty from everyone. I thought that a lot of progress had been made within the fellowship in acquiring knowledge and competence over these matters. If that is not the case, we need to know why.
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 662
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 4, 2023 15:37:34 GMT -5
This will my last post here. There is way too much Anti-American sentiment here for my liking. [ I am not talking about everyone here. ] I am very sorry to hear this. I think you have made very valuable and balanced contributions to the discussions here. I am not following closely enough to know what may have triggered the Anti-American sentiment comment, but I am sorry. (I tend to stay off the political threads here, because every time I read them, I revise my assessment of the collective IQ of these boards downward, by at least 20%.) I think you are badly needed here: Thank you Sharon. You seem like a nice lady. You and Snow. I think I am balanced and I do have EXTENSIVE expertise. I read around the board a bit more than just this thread. I just don't see the point in wasting my time debating certain issues. I know where I stand on some things and it's totally pointless to debate with people who do not appreciate what I have to say and even insult me. Other numerous posts in this thread are simply just TMI (too much information) and it's probably not even all ACCURATE information. So, why should I participate in that? So, so long. Carry on. You are a good person, I think. It's not you. But, once you see something you cannot "unsee" it, if you get my drift. I may check in from time to time and feel free to PM me.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 4, 2023 16:00:15 GMT -5
I am very sorry to hear this. I think you have made very valuable and balanced contributions to the discussions here. I am not following closely enough to know what may have triggered the Anti-American sentiment comment, but I am sorry. (I tend to stay off the political threads here, because every time I read them, I revise my assessment of the collective IQ of these boards downward, by at least 20%.) I think you are badly needed here: Thank you Sharon. You seem like a nice lady. You and Snow. I think I am balanced and I do have EXTENSIVE expertise. I read around the board a bit more than just this thread. I just don't see the point in wasting my time debating certain issues. I know where I stand on some things and it's totally pointless to debate with people who do not appreciate what I have to say and even insult me. Other numerous posts in this thread are simply just TMI (too much information) and it's probably not even all ACCURATE information. So, why should I participate in that? So, so long. Carry on. You are a good person, I think. It's not you. But, once you see something you cannot "unsee" it, if you get my drift. I may check in from time to time and feel free to PM me. Ha! Regrettably, I am not at all nice! (At best, I attempt to be somewhat measured.) But I get what you are saying over participating here. Our loss.
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Post by fixit on Apr 4, 2023 16:13:16 GMT -5
That's all true. I'm 100% supportive of protocols to protect children. But the police don't treat as suspects and question everyone who leaves every bar - on the grounds that people who've been drinking alcohol commit rape and murder. We can probably leave it right there. You have made it quite clear that you put the comfort of workers far ahead of the need for transparency and justice. You couldn't be more wrong.
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 662
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 4, 2023 16:15:21 GMT -5
Thank you Sharon. You seem like a nice lady. You and Snow. I think I am balanced and I do have EXTENSIVE expertise. I read around the board a bit more than just this thread. I just don't see the point in wasting my time debating certain issues. I know where I stand on some things and it's totally pointless to debate with people who do not appreciate what I have to say and even insult me. Other numerous posts in this thread are simply just TMI (too much information) and it's probably not even all ACCURATE information. So, why should I participate in that? So, so long. Carry on. You are a good person, I think. It's not you. But, once you see something you cannot "unsee" it, if you get my drift. I may check in from time to time and feel free to PM me. Ha! Regrettably, I am not at all nice! (At best, I attempt to be somewhat measured.) But I get what you are saying over participating here. Our loss. You seem a bit more balanced than some. Yesterday showed I could not experience honest discourse with a few posters here who post regularly and they put words in my mouth so to speak. I won’t tolerate that, but they won’t admit when they are not being forthright. Complete waste of my time and expertise. Vinny and some others: just TMI for me. If they need to vent, fine, but I don’t find that helpful. I hope I have been helpful to some, now it’s time to halt my input. I have many people in my personal life who value me and treat me with respect. I was offered a job in NYC making $100/HR plus housing. But I didn't take it because there is no way I will live in NYC . I don't have to be a participant in this discussion. I wish all the good people here the best of days.
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Post by mrdobalina on Apr 4, 2023 16:18:52 GMT -5
We can probably leave it right there. You have made it quite clear that you put the comfort of workers far ahead of the need for transparency and justice. You couldn't be more wrong. OK, then let's not shut down a full & thorough investigation. Maybe authorities having a chat to an innocent worker could uncover a pedo companion that person had 20 years ago.
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Post by fixit on Apr 4, 2023 16:22:30 GMT -5
That's all true. I'm 100% supportive of protocols to protect children. But the police don't treat as suspects and question everyone who leaves every bar - on the grounds that people who've been drinking alcohol commit rape and murder. If there was a rape or murder in a bar then everyone would be treated as suspects to determine if the person was acting alone or others were involved. True. But it's a stretch to conclude that every worker on the planet should be treated as a suspect and questioned as such. Fury and vitriol against workers because they are workers is counter-productive. As I said, I'm 100% supportive of protocols to protect children.
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Post by fixit on Apr 4, 2023 16:36:04 GMT -5
You couldn't be more wrong. OK, then let's not shut down a full & thorough investigation. Maybe authorities having a chat to an innocent worker could uncover a pedo companion that person had 20 years ago. I'm fully supportive of: 1. A full and thorough investigation into Dean Bruer's behaviour and all who can reasonably be suspected of being partners in crime. 2. As a result of lessons learned, the worldwide implementation of protocols so that all reasonable steps are taken to prevent a repeat of Dean Bruer's behaviour.
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Post by mrdobalina on Apr 4, 2023 16:36:26 GMT -5
If there was a rape or murder in a bar then everyone would be treated as suspects to determine if the person was acting alone or others were involved. True. But it's a stretch to conclude that every worker on the planet should be treated as a suspect and questioned as such. Fury and vitriol against workers because they are workers is counter-productive. As I said, I'm 100% supportive of protocols to protect children. Like I said, not a suspect, but a potential source of valuable information.
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Post by Pragmatic on Apr 4, 2023 16:40:49 GMT -5
A poor widow's last mite?
The tourist sex trade in some Asian countries is abominable, and it is where you see human nature at it's lowest level, where life is cheap, and anything has it's price. Many religious people have fallen from their values, there. I have interviewed people that have had knocks on their door during the night offering underage persons for rent, and sometimes it's parents selling their kids, for various reasons.
It is easy for us in the west to sit in comfort and pontificate, but in these places life is tough, and it's about survival. And survival sometimes means you climb over your fellow man/woman to get there, regardless of any moral code.
But just for the record, pragmatic, I don’t pontificate. You can speak for yourself. And have you personally done anything as a person in the west to help those people over there? Yes? Very good. Many Americans are very generous with others in foreign lands nor do they pontificate. "Us in the west" is exactly that, nothing to do with people on this forum.
Part of what I do for living is identifying these perpetrators and working with the authorities to bring them to justice. There are a lot of people that pontificate about criminal activity, but are often too afraid to face reality head on and take appropriate action, for a number of reasons. My comment has nothing to do with the generosity of American people. But they are no better or worse than other people around the world. We just all have our own cultures, and are all generous to those in foreign lands.
And do hang around, your input is valuable
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Post by internationalstudies on Apr 4, 2023 16:50:43 GMT -5
Ha! Regrettably, I am not at all nice! (At best, I attempt to be somewhat measured.) But I get what you are saying over participating here. Our loss.Thanks for all your input Peggy Apr 5, 2023 9:15:21 GMT 12 peggysullivan: You seem a bit more balanced than some. Yesterday showed I could not experience honest discourse with a few posters here who post regularly and they put words in my mouth so to speak. I won’t tolerate that, but they won’t admit when they are not being forthright. Complete waste of my time and expertise. Vinny and some others: just TMI for me. If they need to vent, fine, but I don’t find that helpful. I hope I have been helpful to some, now it’s time to halt my input. I have many people in my personal life who value me and treat me with respect. I was offered a job in NYC making $100/HR plus housing. But I didn't take it because there is no way I will live in NYC . I don't have to be a participant in this discussion. I wish all the good people here the best of days. Thanks for all your input Peggy over the last days!
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Post by mountain on Apr 4, 2023 17:18:23 GMT -5
If a girl is walking home from a night out down a dark alley and she is sexually accosted by a man in uniform, possibly a police officer. She can give no other description other than 'he looked like a police officer.' During the initial stages of the investigation, every police officer who was working in that area at the particular time is a suspect. Not only that, the possibility of it being a security guard or other similarly clad person, will likewise be suspects until some definite lines of enquiry narrow down the search for the culprit. This most often happens very quickly, but there are occasions where the investigation progresses slowly. A teacher leaves a classroom full with 30 kids to go to the powder room for whatever reason women do this. She returns ten minutes later to discover her rubber is missing from her desk. She knows it must have been one of the class who took it. She asks who has the rubber but no one owns up. All 30 of the class are suspects at that point until wee Davey (the grass) speaks out and says he saw young Wally and young Snow throwing it at each other. A definite line of enquiry has been reached and suspicion drifts away from most of the class as young Wally and Young Snow become the focus of the enquiry. The rubber is traced and the two accused receive their just retribution. At break time young Davey gets duffed up for telling the teacher. And how does that relate to every worker on the planet being a suspect who needs to be questioned? I have no idea. I don't recall ever saying that every worker needs to be questioned. Now if you can quote exactly what I said, I will be better placed to give you a proper answeer.
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Post by mountain on Apr 4, 2023 17:22:56 GMT -5
We are very much in the land of the unknown at the moment. This Bruer thing may turn out to be a lot less than first imagined, but on the other hand it may involve some of the places he visited. Take your homeland as an example. Now I don't know if Bruer ever visited NZ, but let's just say that information comes to light from his laptop or other source, that he and one or two NZ workers molested young children during a visit there? Let's just say that one of the two NZ workers is identified and the other is not. Immediately this places all NZ workers under suspicion until an investigation clears them. This can be got very quickly if the unknown worker becomes identified early on. They have all been under suspicion because it is known that one of them is a perp and will remain so until the perp is identified. At the moment we have a scenario where many States and countries may be involved (or maybe none). If similar types of information come to light that would provoke an investigation then a similar situation applies in the countries involved. In that case you would have a crime to investigate. Can you have suspects before you have a crime? Surely you accept that some people can behave in a suspicious manner, that when investigated can lead to the discovery of a crime having been committed? However, although these cart before the horse incidents do occur, what I suspect you are driving at is mainly correct. Consider seeing a guy walking down a street late at night. He is wearing a Lone Ranger mask over his eyes, is wearing a black and white hooped jersey and carrying a large bulging sack over his shoulder with 'SWAG' written over it. Your suspicions are aroused (I don't know why?) and you call the cops who trace the guy a few blocks away. During questioning he gives his occupation as 'burglar' At this point no crime has been reported in the area. Nevertheless he is detained and under further questioning he admits to having 'tanned' a house (i.e. Ned talk for broken into). However he can't remember exactly which house. At this time no crime has been reported. Later that morning the house occupiers on wakening up, discover their house has been broken into while they were asleep and their used, unwashed laundry has been stolen. They report the matter to the police and the items reported stolen are what is found in the sack the suspect was carrying. Yes they do happen!
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 662
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 4, 2023 17:24:22 GMT -5
Apr 5, 2023 9:15:21 GMT 12 peggysullivan: You seem a bit more balanced than some. Yesterday showed I could not experience honest discourse with a few posters here who post regularly and they put words in my mouth so to speak. I won’t tolerate that, but they won’t admit when they are not being forthright. Complete waste of my time and expertise. Vinny and some others: just TMI for me. If they need to vent, fine, but I don’t find that helpful. I hope I have been helpful to some, now it’s time to halt my input. I have many people in my personal life who value me and treat me with respect. I was offered a job in NYC making $100/HR plus housing. But I didn't take it because there is no way I will live in NYC . I don't have to be a participant in this discussion. I wish all the good people here the best of days. Thanks for all your input Peggy over the last days!
Not surprising at all and we may be in the end times. I am careful about how I do spend my time and if something is not helpful or even harmful it’s my discretion not to be around it. In my expertise I have much compassion for those that have fallen on hard times and I am useful there. I don’t have to tolerate being treated with disrespect or a lack of basic respect. Some of the lowliest people I have worked with and there have been many, still treat me with respect. And I treat them with respect. I often overlook their shortcomings and can see a valuable soul inside. No offense to or anyone here.
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Post by snow on Apr 4, 2023 17:31:31 GMT -5
Yeah, let's just close ranks & leave them to continue offending unchecked, it's God's will. Nonsense. But let's not revert to the Salem witch trial era. I don't think it has to be like that. However, because Dean was around a lot of workers that may know something, that would need to be investigated so while they aren't suspects per se, they could be persons of interest. There will be a lot of workers talked to I would think. No one knows just how much was known by workers that might have covered it up. It's not like that hasn't happened before in the group, so it's probably something that needs to be done. Since he traveled extensively, it also might include workers in countries where he visited to attend conventions etc.
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