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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2023 20:33:46 GMT -5
Taking one sentence without the Statistics above it will only end badly. Mincing words also will end badly. Nevertheless... "more likely" would mean more than not "more than likely" would indicate an even higher probability... Who is mincing words? People with comprehension skills will understand the difference between: 1. "More likely to have been sexually abused than non-sex offenders" 2. "Most sex offenders have been sexually abused". ZIP, right over your head...
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 3, 2023 20:35:01 GMT -5
Who is mincing words? People with comprehension skills will understand the difference between: 1. "More likely to have been sexually abused than non-sex offenders" 2. "Most sex offenders have been sexually abused". ZIP, right over your head... He's not wrong.
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Post by fixit on Apr 3, 2023 20:40:08 GMT -5
There have been parents, siblings, relatives, schoolteachers, scoutmasters ....the list goes on. I don't understand how you can question "suspects" unless you have a specific crime. Basically you start with a crime which leads to tracing or identifying suspects for that crime. All the speculation is based on what may be revealed from Bruer's laptop and associated enquiries. The reason we seem to be racing ahead of ourselves is due to the pyrotechnic effect resulting from the Bruer disclosures a few days ago. I can hardly believe how much people are racing ahead of themselves on this thread. If one policeman sexually abuses someone you don't treat the whole police force as suspects.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Apr 3, 2023 22:50:20 GMT -5
I don't want to be sounding pedantic or straining at a gnat, but there is a difference in legal terms between a 'suspect' and an 'accused.' Normally the former is applied to someone who is under investigation for some wrongdoing whilst the latter is someone who has actually been charged with a crime or offence. My limited knowledge of the matter involving MA is that currently he is a suspect only and has not yet been charged with any crime or offence, therefore it is legally incorrect at this time to name him as an accused? Once a sufficiency of evidence is found against a suspect, he/she is normally charged with the relevant crime or offence, pending further legal proceedings and his/her status changes to that of an accused, which grants him or her certain legal rights which must be respected. A criminal charge is just a legal term meaning criminal accusation, hence the term 'accused' being applied to someone who has been charged with doing something criminally naughty! By the nature of this case, you could say that all workers everywhere are 'suspects,' as all are under suspicion, at least until we see the ultimate course of this matter. There is of course a degree of flexibility in the way we regard this point, so don't get too hung up about it. Technically all accused persons are suspects until their case is heard in court and verdicts have been reached. However, a suspect may not be regarded as an accused until they have been charged. www.differencebetween.info/difference-between-suspect-and-accusedThat is fair and therefore what Elizabeth and Rosalyn have said is purely speculation. If it isn't speculation and there is indeed an abuser going home to home, they are guilty themselves for sitting back with their arms folded, whilst accusing the workers or 2x2s of the same behaviour - the height of hypocrisy. Exactly how many CSA investigations have you involved in, themaninthemirror ? Do you know anything at all about processes for an accusation, both at organisational level and police level? You don't have a clue, do you? I can't report a thing unless a) I am the victim; or b) a victim has shared credible information with me; and c) I am mandated (legally or ethically) to report; and d) noting that if the victim is of adult age, it is THEIR decision and theirs alone whether or not to proceed with a formal accusation and police report. But don't let the facts get in the way of you calling hypocrisy against whoever you can. Guess it distracts from dealing with the hypocrisy of your own church. Go back and look at that internal list if you're so concerned about hypocrisy and REALLY want to make a difference in the world. You're part of the most hypocritical religious group on earth. And I say that advisedly.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 3, 2023 23:18:14 GMT -5
Wrap your head around this (bombshell) shouldn’t have to ! There are countries that rely on the tourist’s . These visitors go to these countries were CSA is a driving force in their economy . Young girls young boys and THERE ARE WORKERS IN THOSE COUNTRIES ! Some so eager to get back , I questioned his motives to his face perhaps they were under observation and needed to leave Canada in a hurry . The visa wasn’t coming quick enough for them . Now I have concerns about this and I am trying to find out how to connect with authorities . How would a worker get AIDS ? He wasn’t shooting drugs , but spent a lot of time in foreign countries ! Where you can rent a child for cheap , bottom line . The thought of this is sickening… and on who’s dime?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2023 23:25:04 GMT -5
ZIP, right over your head... He's not wrong. ZIP, right over your head...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2023 23:26:50 GMT -5
Basically you start with a crime which leads to tracing or identifying suspects for that crime. All the speculation is based on what may be revealed from Bruer's laptop and associated enquiries. The reason we seem to be racing ahead of ourselves is due to the pyrotechnic effect resulting from the Bruer disclosures a few days ago. I can hardly believe how much people are racing ahead of themselves on this thread. If one policeman sexually abuses someone you don't treat the whole police force as suspects. Not in America, have you forgotten your pals 2020 riots already? Don't worry, the Holy Land of NZ will eventually get a taste of the same thing...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2023 23:30:42 GMT -5
That is fair and therefore what Elizabeth and Rosalyn have said is purely speculation. If it isn't speculation and there is indeed an abuser going home to home, they are guilty themselves for sitting back with their arms folded, whilst accusing the workers or 2x2s of the same behaviour - the height of hypocrisy. But don't let the facts get in the way of you calling hypocrisy against whoever you can. Guess is distracts from dealing with the hypocrisy of your own church. Go back and look at that internal list if you're so concerned about hypocrisy and REALLY want to make a difference in the world. You're part of the most hypocritical religious group on earth. And I say that advisedly. Don't let the facts get in the way of your exaggerating narrative...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2023 23:34:47 GMT -5
Wrap your head around this (bombshell) shouldn’t have to ! There are countries that rely on the tourist’s . These visitors go to these countries were CSA is a driving force in their economy . Young girls young boys and THERE ARE WORKERS IN THOSE COUNTRIES ! Some so eager to get back , I questioned his motives to his face perhaps they were under observation and needed to leave Canada in a hurry . The visa wasn’t coming quick enough for them . Now I have concerns about this and I am trying to find out how to connect with authorities . How would a worker get AIDS ? He wasn’t shooting drugs , but spent a lot of time in foreign countries ! Where you can rent a child for cheap , bottom line . The thought of this is sickening… and on who’s dime? Nothing like a bit of rumor to stoke the flames higher...
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Post by Pragmatic on Apr 3, 2023 23:34:47 GMT -5
Wrap your head around this (bombshell) shouldn’t have to ! There are countries that rely on the tourist’s . These visitors go to these countries were CSA is a driving force in their economy . Young girls young boys and THERE ARE WORKERS IN THOSE COUNTRIES ! Some so eager to get back , I questioned his motives to his face perhaps they were under observation and needed to leave Canada in a hurry . The visa wasn’t coming quick enough for them . Now I have concerns about this and I am trying to find out how to connect with authorities . How would a worker get AIDS ? He wasn’t shooting drugs , but spent a lot of time in foreign countries ! Where you can rent a child for cheap , bottom line . The thought of this is sickening… and on who’s dime? A poor widow's last mite?
The tourist sex trade in some Asian countries is abominable, and it is where you see human nature at it's lowest level, where life is cheap, and anything has it's price. Many religious people have fallen from their values, there. I have interviewed people that have had knocks on their door during the night offering underage persons for rent, and sometimes it's parents selling their kids, for various reasons.
It is easy for us in the west to sit in comfort and pontificate, but in these places life is tough, and it's about survival. And survival sometimes means you climb over your fellow man/woman to get there, regardless of any moral code.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 3, 2023 23:50:57 GMT -5
The thought of this is sickening… and on who’s dime? A poor widow's last mite?
The tourist sex trade in some Asian countries is abominable, and it is where you see human nature at it's lowest level, where life is cheap, and anything has it's price. Many religious people have fallen from their values, there. I have interviewed people that have had knocks on their door during the night offering underage persons for rent, and sometimes it's parents selling their kids, for various reasons.
It is easy for us in the west to sit in comfort and pontificate, but in these places life is tough, and it's about survival. And survival sometimes means you climb over your fellow man/woman to get there, regardless of any moral code.
I have actually ministered to several Asian refugees here in America. One of my Dr.s was a Vietnam refugee as a child in the 70s. He now is part of an outreach program to SE Asia to help kids. He and his wife.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2023 0:15:35 GMT -5
The thought of this is sickening… and on who’s dime? A poor widow's last mite?
The tourist sex trade in some Asian countries is abominable, and it is where you see human nature at it's lowest level, where life is cheap, and anything has it's price. Many religious people have fallen from their values, there. I have interviewed people that have had knocks on their door during the night offering underage persons for rent, and sometimes it's parents selling their kids, for various reasons.
It is easy for us in the west to sit in comfort and pontificate, but in these places life is tough, and it's about survival. And survival sometimes means you climb over your fellow man/woman to get there, regardless of any moral code.
Pedophilia is a bridge too far...
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Post by Dan on Apr 4, 2023 0:30:14 GMT -5
Why is it limited to workers? I know of several 2x2 sex offenders that aren't workers and have not been investigated. While all workers clesrly aren't offenders, all should certainly be questioned. I'm lost on this sorry. Why should all workers be questioned?
Its a new method of investigation I guess? Guilty until proven innocent. "Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime" (Joseph Stalin’s secret police chief)
I personally don't think much will come of it because the abuser is dead. The investigation may only evolve around there being a cover-up, but that would be very difficult to prove.
I think the best defense is to teach children how not to be victims, that's what our parents taught us. e.g; Never get into a car with strangers, if someone touches you inappropriately, punch them in the nose with everything you got and run like hell
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Post by Grant on Apr 4, 2023 0:44:32 GMT -5
I'm lost on this sorry. Why should all workers be questioned? Its a new method of investigation I guess? Guilty until proven innocent. "Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime" (Joseph Stalin’s secret police chief) I personally don't think much will come of it because the abuser is dead. The investigation may only evolve around there being a cover-up, but that would be very difficult to prove. I think the best defense is to teach children how not to be victims, that's what our parents taught us. e.g; Never get into a car with strangers, if someone touches you inappropriately, punch them in the nose with everything you got and run like hell Most abuse happens by people the victim knows. Seems your parents might not have taught you that.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 4, 2023 0:49:36 GMT -5
I'm lost on this sorry. Why should all workers be questioned?
Its a new method of investigation I guess? Guilty until proven innocent. "Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime" (Joseph Stalin’s secret police chief)
I personally don't think much will come of it because the abuser is dead. The investigation may only evolve around there being a cover-up, but that would be very difficult to prove.
I think the best defense is to teach children how not to be victims, that's what our parents taught us. e.g; Never get into a car with strangers, if someone touches you inappropriately, punch them in the nose with everything you got and run like hell Lol!! Kick ‘em in the shins. Give them a quick undercut with your elbow and then punch them in the throat. Then take your thumb and dig in just below the ear as hard as you can. lol
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Post by Dan on Apr 4, 2023 0:50:49 GMT -5
Its a new method of investigation I guess? Guilty until proven innocent. "Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime" (Joseph Stalin’s secret police chief) I personally don't think much will come of it because the abuser is dead. The investigation may only evolve around there being a cover-up, but that would be very difficult to prove. I think the best defense is to teach children how not to be victims, that's what our parents taught us. e.g; Never get into a car with strangers, if someone touches you inappropriately, punch them in the nose with everything you got and run like hell Most abuse happens by people the victim knows. Seems your parents might not have taught you that.
They also taught us not to discriminate, friend or foe, if someone touches you in your secret place, bloody their nose and get away from them.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 4, 2023 0:56:53 GMT -5
Its a new method of investigation I guess? Guilty until proven innocent. "Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime" (Joseph Stalin’s secret police chief) I personally don't think much will come of it because the abuser is dead. The investigation may only evolve around there being a cover-up, but that would be very difficult to prove. I think the best defense is to teach children how not to be victims, that's what our parents taught us. e.g; Never get into a car with strangers, if someone touches you inappropriately, punch them in the nose with everything you got and run like hell Most abuse happens by people the victim knows. Seems your parents might not have taught you that. Whether it’s someone you know or don’t know you can still fight if you are empowered. My dad told us what to do from a very early age and he knew it would likely be against people we knew. There were a few boys that complained about that. But you are correct, a high percentage of perpetrators are known to their victims.
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Post by mrdobalina on Apr 4, 2023 1:30:11 GMT -5
The person that commented on Deans remembrance page at number 122 obviously knew the real Dean quite well.
122. B E (from Ohio) Loved the thought that Dean lived – “Anytime, Anyplace, Anyone.”
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Post by mountain on Apr 4, 2023 3:23:58 GMT -5
Basically you start with a crime which leads to tracing or identifying suspects for that crime. All the speculation is based on what may be revealed from Bruer's laptop and associated enquiries. The reason we seem to be racing ahead of ourselves is due to the pyrotechnic effect resulting from the Bruer disclosures a few days ago. I can hardly believe how much people are racing ahead of themselves on this thread. If one policeman sexually abuses someone you don't treat the whole police force as suspects. If a girl is walking home from a night out down a dark alley and she is sexually accosted by a man in uniform, possibly a police officer. She can give no other description other than 'he looked like a police officer.' During the initial stages of the investigation, every police officer who was working in that area at the particular time is a suspect. Not only that, the possibility of it being a security guard or other similarly clad person, will likewise be suspects until some definite lines of enquiry narrow down the search for the culprit. This most often happens very quickly, but there are occasions where the investigation progresses slowly. A teacher leaves a classroom full with 30 kids to go to the powder room for whatever reason women do this. She returns ten minutes later to discover her rubber is missing from her desk. She knows it must have been one of the class who took it. She asks who has the rubber but no one owns up. All 30 of the class are suspects at that point until wee Davey (the grass) speaks out and says he saw young Wally and young Snow throwing it at each other. A definite line of enquiry has been reached and suspicion drifts away from most of the class as young Wally and Young Snow become the focus of the enquiry. The rubber is traced and the two accused receive their just retribution. At break time young Davey gets duffed up for telling the teacher.
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Post by mountain on Apr 4, 2023 3:32:20 GMT -5
Most abuse happens by people the victim knows. Seems your parents might not have taught you that. They also taught us not to discriminate, friend or foe, if someone touches you in your secret place, bloody their nose and get away from them.
Usually it is harder for a victim to resist someone they know, especially someone they have been taught to respect. I can just imagine a 7 or 8 year old girl punching a 40 year old man on the nose and running away. Great if it happens, but the overpowering aura of a perp in these circumstances, especially if it is someone they know, is likely to produce a more submissive response from the victim. Scream like hell if you can. However, this is where grooming comes in. It works with horses and with humans alike!
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 4, 2023 10:35:56 GMT -5
The thought of this is sickening… and on who’s dime? A poor widow's last mite?
The tourist sex trade in some Asian countries is abominable, and it is where you see human nature at it's lowest level, where life is cheap, and anything has it's price. Many religious people have fallen from their values, there. I have interviewed people that have had knocks on their door during the night offering underage persons for rent, and sometimes it's parents selling their kids, for various reasons.
It is easy for us in the west to sit in comfort and pontificate, but in these places life is tough, and it's about survival. And survival sometimes means you climb over your fellow man/woman to get there, regardless of any moral code.
But just for the record, pragmatic, I don’t pontificate. You can speak for yourself. And have you personally done anything as a person in the west to help those people over there? Yes? Very good. Many Americans are very generous with others in foreign lands nor do they pontificate.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 4, 2023 11:12:25 GMT -5
I can hardly believe how much people are racing ahead of themselves on this thread. If one policeman sexually abuses someone you don't treat the whole police force as suspects. Not in America, have you forgotten your pals 2020 riots already? Don't worry, the Holy Land of NZ will eventually get a taste of the same thing... We back the Blue here.👍🏼
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 4, 2023 11:14:47 GMT -5
Bears repeating. Working in a prosecutor's office is a far cry from being a prosecutor. Weak, after 20 or 30 or 40 years in anything just because you aren't the boss doesn't mean you don't know or have a clue about who, what, why, how and where of what is said, done or going on especially methods. It's not a vacuum... Thank you Wally. It’s not a vacuum for sure. It’s a network. Anyone that works in the system is boots on the ground.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 4, 2023 12:54:14 GMT -5
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 4, 2023 13:14:08 GMT -5
Fortunately we have no time limits for charges of CSA & SA in Canada . If someone in Canada files with the id number I provided it could be 50 years after and charges will still be brought forward ! No statute of limitations in Canada 🇨🇦 .
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Post by fixit on Apr 4, 2023 13:51:35 GMT -5
I can hardly believe how much people are racing ahead of themselves on this thread. If one policeman sexually abuses someone you don't treat the whole police force as suspects. If a girl is walking home from a night out down a dark alley and she is sexually accosted by a man in uniform, possibly a police officer. She can give no other description other than 'he looked like a police officer.' During the initial stages of the investigation, every police officer who was working in that area at the particular time is a suspect. Not only that, the possibility of it being a security guard or other similarly clad person, will likewise be suspects until some definite lines of enquiry narrow down the search for the culprit. This most often happens very quickly, but there are occasions where the investigation progresses slowly. A teacher leaves a classroom full with 30 kids to go to the powder room for whatever reason women do this. She returns ten minutes later to discover her rubber is missing from her desk. She knows it must have been one of the class who took it. She asks who has the rubber but no one owns up. All 30 of the class are suspects at that point until wee Davey (the grass) speaks out and says he saw young Wally and young Snow throwing it at each other. A definite line of enquiry has been reached and suspicion drifts away from most of the class as young Wally and Young Snow become the focus of the enquiry. The rubber is traced and the two accused receive their just retribution. At break time young Davey gets duffed up for telling the teacher. And how does that relate to every worker on the planet being a suspect who needs to be questioned?
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Post by fixit on Apr 4, 2023 13:56:15 GMT -5
To have a suspect, don't you first need to have a crime? I'm not aware of a crime that would make all workers everywhere suspects. We are very much in the land of the unknown at the moment. This Bruer thing may turn out to be a lot less than first imagined, but on the other hand it may involve some of the places he visited. Take your homeland as an example. Now I don't know if Bruer ever visited NZ, but let's just say that information comes to light from his laptop or other source, that he and one or two NZ workers molested young children during a visit there? Let's just say that one of the two NZ workers is identified and the other is not. Immediately this places all NZ workers under suspicion until an investigation clears them. This can be got very quickly if the unknown worker becomes identified early on. They have all been under suspicion because it is known that one of them is a perp and will remain so until the perp is identified. At the moment we have a scenario where many States and countries may be involved (or maybe none). If similar types of information come to light that would provoke an investigation then a similar situation applies in the countries involved. In that case you would have a crime to investigate. Can you have suspects before you have a crime?
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Post by fixit on Apr 4, 2023 14:02:38 GMT -5
But don't let the facts get in the way of you calling hypocrisy against whoever you can. Guess it distracts from dealing with the hypocrisy of your own church. Go back and look at that internal list if you're so concerned about hypocrisy and REALLY want to make a difference in the world. You're part of the most hypocritical religious group on earth. And I say that advisedly. Yes, there is hypocrisy. I accept that. But the most hypocritical religious group on earth? That's a stretch.
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