|
Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 3, 2023 18:53:56 GMT -5
The worker’s foster abuse with their Bible’s and words . As one said follow your husband’s orders and there should not be a problem . There are 2X2 men that take it to depravity , with those words obey your husband . We are seeing women leave . One lady was horrible abused , she left but went back in older years to leave yet again . She was a single parent and didn’t even realize she was entitled to child support and support money for herself until I sat next to her and told her as she was struggling . Why ? Because the worker’s thought they knew best . The worker’s have no business weighing in on such subjects period full stop 🛑 not a single letter is in agreement with others . Another lady finally got away and I was still taking mom to conventions and she sat across from me in the dinner hall . She could actually talk , when in his presence he was the only one who spoke . Then she smiled and I cried because she was finally free at last .
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Apr 3, 2023 18:59:45 GMT -5
Same over here with investigations. Furthermore, you seem to be lacking in understanding about conducting an investigation. I think your position is akin to coming in somewhere after an investigation has established core facts and circumstances. If I am investigating a case which may potentially include multiple accused, witnesses and crimes spread over a wide area, within a certain community and I have only been given sparse details of a case along with potentially widespread similar matters within a large community, but initially do not have much to go on, other than the potential for multiple accused, it is only common sense that you keep an open mind with regards to the possible involvement of anyone who could later be incrimination. Currently the whole system is suspect and that view can easily be drawn from the interactions on this board. You may disagree with my statement about every worker being under suspicion but I used the term as a generalisation and yet again you insist on raising the bar above what was intended. Imagine a scenario. At convention a young girl is molested in a male workers' tent. She does not know who her attacker was, nor can she adequately describe him other than to say it was a male. The tent is shared by ten workers. The matter is reported and all the information we have is that a young girl was sexually molested in a workers' tent after having been sent there by a sister worker to deliver clean linen. A solitary male is within the tent who sexually assaults her. This is all we know at the start of the investigation. The girl is taken to a safe place for medical examination and interview, etc. Now that the matter has been reported to the police, there is the danger that the culprit may abscond. At this stage of the enquiry ALL ten workers who use the tent are suspects, until facts and circumstances show otherwise, gradually narrowing the the focus down to the male concerned. It is a process of elimination. If there is the possibility that a worker may be involved untowardly in a matter under investigation, then that worker must be a suspect until cleared by facts and circumstances. The possible international reaches of the Bruer case can be applied on a much more extensive level. I see you don't like to be called out on inaccurate statements, which is what I did. It's really not wise to make generalizations with regards to this ugly subject matter. Can you please point out one inaccurate statement that I have made and explain why in your opinion it is inaccurate? It is becoming very clear to me that you have an inability to comprehend what is being said, and have allowed yourself to become fixated on one thing that I said which though correct within its context, was virtually a by the way remark in which I warned against getting too taken up with it. You are constantly raising the bar to maintain your position and rather than seeking common ground, of which there is plenty.
|
|
|
Post by mrdobalina on Apr 3, 2023 19:04:17 GMT -5
Is this going to be a worldwide investigation, or limited to US? Who can say? Mtn. Seems to think all workers everywhere are suspect. I disagree with that statement. Why is it limited to workers? I know of several 2x2 sex offenders that aren't workers and have not been investigated. While all workers clearly aren't offenders, all should certainly be questioned.
|
|
|
Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 3, 2023 19:08:57 GMT -5
Who can say? Mtn. Seems to think all workers everywhere are suspect. I disagree with that statement. Why is it limited to workers? I know of several 2x2 sex offenders that aren't workers and have not been investigated. While all workers clesrly aren't offenders, all should certainly be questioned. it’s not limited to men in the TRUTH IN ALBERTA We have a female predator ! Believe me I had a run in with that one ! As well as elders and 2X2’s .
|
|
peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 662
|
Post by peggysullivan on Apr 3, 2023 19:09:01 GMT -5
The worker’s foster abuse with their Bible’s and words . As one said follow your husband’s orders and there should not be a problem . There are 2X2 men that take it to depravity , with those words obey your husband . We are seeing women leave . One lady was horrible abused , she left but went back in older years to leave yet again . She was a single parent and didn’t even realize she was entitled to child support and support money for herself until I sat next to her and told her as she was struggling . Why ? Because the worker’s thought they knew best . The worker’s have no business weighing in on such subjects period full stop 🛑 not a single letter is in agreement with others . What ultimately needs to happen is the FRIENDS need to be empowered. Parents need to feel empowered to do whatever it takes to keep kids safe. How do you do that? How does one feel empowered? They really should believe the power of Heaven is on their side. So, if they need to really take a stand on something they will have the courage to act. As Snow has helpfully pointed out, the very BEST thing is for parents to be informed and do whatever is necessary to keep kids safe. Sadly, many in this world who are sexually abused were so in private situations they shouldn't have been in. It's good that the schools are teaching kids about safety and have been for awhile now.
|
|
peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 662
|
Post by peggysullivan on Apr 3, 2023 19:10:24 GMT -5
Who can say? Mtn. Seems to think all workers everywhere are suspect. I disagree with that statement. Why is it limited to workers? I know of several 2x2 sex offenders that aren't workers and have not been investigated. While all workers clesrly aren't offenders, all should certainly be questioned. Good points. Exactly. There have been elders that have been abusers.
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Apr 3, 2023 19:10:48 GMT -5
As in Canada as well . I would love more than anything to Yell Their Names From A Rooftop ! I simply cannot . In my circle we speak their names but I can’t speak their names legally . But yes everything is investigated before court/charges come . Right. The cops bring what they have gathered, but it’s up to the prosecutor whether or not they will be tried in court. That’s for criminal cases. For civil it’s different. Some victims do not get anywhere in criminal court, so they go to civil court. Investigation continues up until the court date and even during the trial as there are times new evidence is brought forward. Same over here. Its the cops who carry out the investigation and follow tried and tested procedures. Many lines of enquiry do not reach the prosecutor's office as they are found to have little or no relevance to the case. Over here, only rarely is anyone from the prosecutor's office (Procurator Fiscal) involved in an actual investigation on the ground. In most cases the prosecutor is delivered a fait accompli by the police on which they make a decision to prosecute. Basically those in our prosecutors' offices have very little, if any experience or training in conducting investigations on the ground.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Apr 3, 2023 19:11:46 GMT -5
By the nature of this case, you could say that all workers everywhere are 'suspects,' as all are under suspicion, at least until we see the ultimate course of this matter. To have a suspect, don't you first need to have a crime? I'm not aware of a crime that would make all workers everywhere suspects.
|
|
|
Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 3, 2023 19:12:02 GMT -5
Know who your kids ARE WITH ! Due diligence for parents is required . I hope this effects changes with the younger professing couples and single people ! However I am not betting the farm as they say . Oh my gosh I have turned into my parents lol . With their sayings .
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Apr 3, 2023 19:16:17 GMT -5
Why is it limited to workers? I know of several 2x2 sex offenders that aren't workers and have not been investigated. While all workers clesrly aren't offenders, all should certainly be questioned. Good points. Exactly. There have been elders that have been abusers. There have been parents, siblings, relatives, schoolteachers, scoutmasters ....the list goes on. I don't understand how you can question "suspects" unless you have a specific crime.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Apr 3, 2023 19:17:57 GMT -5
Who can say? Mtn. Seems to think all workers everywhere are suspect. I disagree with that statement. Why is it limited to workers? I know of several 2x2 sex offenders that aren't workers and have not been investigated. While all workers clesrly aren't offenders, all should certainly be questioned. I'm lost on this sorry. Why should all workers be questioned?
|
|
|
Post by mrdobalina on Apr 3, 2023 19:22:45 GMT -5
Why is it limited to workers? I know of several 2x2 sex offenders that aren't workers and have not been investigated. While all workers clesrly aren't offenders, all should certainly be questioned. I'm lost on this sorry. Why should all workers be questioned? Because they belong to a very closed group that has a high rate of sexual abuse. I have friends in a local biker gang, when one of them goes down, the rest are invariably questioned. I should point out that their crimes are not of a sexual pervert nature however.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2023 19:24:02 GMT -5
You couldn't be more wrong... pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19327831/Peggysullivan does not say those abused mostly become sex abusers. This says those that ARE sex abusers are mostly abused themselves. There is a difference. Do better research... From the link you posted: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19327831/Conclusion: There is support for the sexually abused-sexual abuser hypothesis, in that sex offenders are more likely to have been sexually abused than non-sex offenders, That's a far cry from: Most sex offenders have been sexually abused. Not just many. Taking one sentence without the Statistics above it will only end badly. Mincing words also will end badly. Nevertheless... "more likely" would mean more than not "more than likely" would indicate an even higher probability...
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Apr 3, 2023 19:25:43 GMT -5
Who can say? Mtn. Seems to think all workers everywhere are suspect. I disagree with that statement. Why is it limited to workers? I know of several 2x2 sex offenders that aren't workers and have not been investigated. While all workers clesrly aren't offenders, all should certainly be questioned. Currently suspicion has fallen on the entire ministry worldwide. Dobs you are right, that there are offenders within the sect who are not workers. The reason that the focus is on workers particularly is because Bruer was an Overseer and other workers have been implicated. Bruer's clandestine lifestyle has also sharpened the focus on the sect's heirarchy. As a rule investigations must remain open minded and guided by definite lines of enquiry until their conclusion. I will try to put matters into context once and for all. Very little is known about the depth and widespread nature of Bruer's activities. Hopefully this proves to be limited, but nevertheless proper investigation must be made into what comes to light. There has been suggestions that his activities and possible accomplices (workers?) have been spread over multiple States and countries over many years. That creates potential for many locii and an investigator's nightmare. If it becomes known that Bruer had worker accomplices in Australia this places all workers in Australia under suspicion until individuals are identified. It is simple mathematics. Definite lines of enquiry as they become obvious, determine who is interviewed, either as witnesses or suspects. Where it is known that perpetrators exist within a group of people but have not been identified, it stands to reason that everyone remains under suspicion until they are cleared by relevant enquiries.
|
|
|
Post by mrdobalina on Apr 3, 2023 19:27:18 GMT -5
Good points. Exactly. There have been elders that have been abusers. There have been parents, siblings, relatives, schoolteachers, scoutmasters ....the list goes on. I don't understand how you can question "suspects" unless you have a specific crime. Maybe Pragmatic can clear this up.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2023 19:34:27 GMT -5
Here is what you said to Vernz. Verna,
I wasn't downplaying or discounting purposefully, the situation. Having someone sit on your lap at that age like that could be part of grooming behavior. However, the allegation in and of itself would be torn apart in court as it is indeed hearsay. It is not evidence of grooming or abuse. Is it appropriate? No. But we don't know anything else at this point.
It reads to me as if it was the person sitting on the lap who made the allegation not a third party. If this is the case it would be first hand evidence. Most instances of hearsay are not heard in court simply because it is inadmissible. However, in cases of sexual assault in my country (UK), some instances of hearsay are admissible in evidence if, it is a statement made by a victim of a sexual assault to the first person(s) met soon after the assault takes place. If I misunderstood what you were meaning, I apologise, but it was easy for me to misunderstand you. Thank you for the apology. Because the "allegation" is this: Someone said someone told her she sat on MK's lap when she was 11 while he read her a story. The person who spoke up about this incident recently in WA state is not the same person it happened to. We have no knowledge currently of the actual person on MK's lap bringing this allegation forward directly in a formal complaint. Because of this "allegation" MK has stepped aside and it was shared openly in a letter to all the friends. Interesting I had thought the woman it happened to was the victim...
|
|
peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 662
|
Post by peggysullivan on Apr 3, 2023 19:36:35 GMT -5
Good points. Exactly. There have been elders that have been abusers. There have been parents, siblings, relatives, schoolteachers, scoutmasters ....the list goes on. I don't understand how you can question "suspects" unless you have a specific crime. This is precisely why if someone has a valid suspicion of CSA it needs to be reported to the authorities. Until that is done, I'm afraid not much will ever be resolved. Sadly, there are cases in which even after things are reported justice is not brought in a timely fashion if at all. CPS only does so much. APS only does so much. Social workers only do so much. Cops only do so much. In many cases, it's a Dr. or nurse or teacher who are at the front lines of battle for these kids; they are perhaps the first ones who become aware of abuse. It has to start somewhere. But, ANYONE can make a report to CPS or APS.
|
|
|
Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 3, 2023 19:38:03 GMT -5
On point 💯 % !
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Apr 3, 2023 19:43:51 GMT -5
By the nature of this case, you could say that all workers everywhere are 'suspects,' as all are under suspicion, at least until we see the ultimate course of this matter. To have a suspect, don't you first need to have a crime? I'm not aware of a crime that would make all workers everywhere suspects. You need an allegation or a complaint of a crime. As you will appreciate the earlier posts about the Bruer affair made all sorts of allegations and claims about Bruer's conduct and that of other workers, even in the international arena. Much reference was made to content stored on Bruer's laptop which seems to have some degree of acceptance by various workers in their letters to those in their fields. Basically we are in no man's land to a certain degree. Due to Bruer's highly peripatetic lifestyle over many years, spanning many States and countries and what we know of his activities now, common sense tells us that he may have left a trail of criminal or immoral behaviour in many of the places that he visited. We do not know what will be revealed by the initial enquiries. Hopefully it will be very little, but the potential is that we could have multiple investigations in various countries. We are very much in the 'how long is a piece of string' territory. It may be very short or it may be very long. Until specific details are learned along with the extent, location and identified perpetrators, then the whole ministry is suspect. Ask any worker who has been made aware of this case and see how they feel? It is a generalisation until enquiries reveal definite lines of enquiry where things can be narrowed down. It's not all that different from the bent cop scenario. All cops in the force are under suspicion and tarnished with the same brush until the enquiry is complete.
|
|
peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 662
|
Post by peggysullivan on Apr 3, 2023 19:49:50 GMT -5
This whole issue just speaks to me of empowerment. Somehow, someway, people need to be empowered to do what is right and to feel free to speak. But they also need to be empowered to learn to look out for themselves; not just be "tough", but to be smart about what kinds of situations they might get into.
|
|
|
Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 3, 2023 19:50:58 GMT -5
The person that tipped me off on the qt knew exactly what I would do . I immediately started a report and sent it in . Along with the letters . It is all over the 2X2 world now , I am certain unless you live in a lost tribe somewhere . I did my mandatory reporting . Even if it meant chillin on the SSU .
|
|
peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 662
|
Post by peggysullivan on Apr 3, 2023 19:53:19 GMT -5
Why is it limited to workers? I know of several 2x2 sex offenders that aren't workers and have not been investigated. While all workers clesrly aren't offenders, all should certainly be questioned. it’s not limited to men in the TRUTH IN ALBERTA We have a female predator ! Believe me I had a run in with that one ! As well as elders and 2X2’s . As a sex abuse survivor I have a song for you by Bonnie Raitt that should be your theme song, chineseW. "I Will Not Be Broken". www.youtube.com/watch?v=lINLPl5cMFY
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Apr 3, 2023 20:08:06 GMT -5
By the nature of this case, you could say that all workers everywhere are 'suspects,' as all are under suspicion, at least until we see the ultimate course of this matter. To have a suspect, don't you first need to have a crime? I'm not aware of a crime that would make all workers everywhere suspects. We are very much in the land of the unknown at the moment. This Bruer thing may turn out to be a lot less than first imagined, but on the other hand it may involve some of the places he visited. Take your homeland as an example. Now I don't know if Bruer ever visited NZ, but let's just say that information comes to light from his laptop or other source, that he and one or two NZ workers molested young children during a visit there? Let's just say that one of the two NZ workers is identified and the other is not. Immediately this places all NZ workers under suspicion until an investigation clears them. This can be got very quickly if the unknown worker becomes identified early on. They have all been under suspicion because it is known that one of them is a perp and will remain so until the perp is identified. At the moment we have a scenario where many States and countries may be involved (or maybe none). If similar types of information come to light that would provoke an investigation then a similar situation applies in the countries involved.
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Apr 3, 2023 20:15:51 GMT -5
Good points. Exactly. There have been elders that have been abusers. There have been parents, siblings, relatives, schoolteachers, scoutmasters ....the list goes on. I don't understand how you can question "suspects" unless you have a specific crime. Basically you start with a crime which leads to tracing or identifying suspects for that crime. All the speculation is based on what may be revealed from Bruer's laptop and associated enquiries. The reason we seem to be racing ahead of ourselves is due to the pyrotechnic effect resulting from the Bruer disclosures a few days ago.
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Apr 3, 2023 20:20:28 GMT -5
Right. The cops bring what they have gathered, but it’s up to the prosecutor whether or not they will be tried in court. That’s for criminal cases. For civil it’s different. Some victims do not get anywhere in criminal court, so they go to civil court. Investigation continues up until the court date and even during the trial as there are times new evidence is brought forward. Same over here. Its the cops who carry out the investigation and follow tried and tested procedures. Many lines of enquiry do not reach the prosecutor's office as they are found to have little or no relevance to the case. Over here, only rarely is anyone from the prosecutor's office (Procurator Fiscal) involved in an actual investigation on the ground. In most cases the prosecutor is delivered a fait accompli by the police on which they make a decision to prosecute. Basically those in our prosecutors' offices have very little, if any experience or training in conducting investigations on the ground. Bears repeating. Working in a prosecutor's office is a far cry from being a prosecutor.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Apr 3, 2023 20:27:21 GMT -5
From the link you posted: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19327831/Conclusion: There is support for the sexually abused-sexual abuser hypothesis, in that sex offenders are more likely to have been sexually abused than non-sex offenders, That's a far cry from: Taking one sentence without the Statistics above it will only end badly. Mincing words also will end badly. Nevertheless... "more likely" would mean more than not "more than likely" would indicate an even higher probability... Who is mincing words? People with comprehension skills will understand the difference between: 1. "More likely to have been sexually abused than non-sex offenders" 2. "Most sex offenders have been sexually abused".
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2023 20:32:49 GMT -5
Same over here. Its the cops who carry out the investigation and follow tried and tested procedures. Many lines of enquiry do not reach the prosecutor's office as they are found to have little or no relevance to the case. Over here, only rarely is anyone from the prosecutor's office (Procurator Fiscal) involved in an actual investigation on the ground. In most cases the prosecutor is delivered a fait accompli by the police on which they make a decision to prosecute. Basically those in our prosecutors' offices have very little, if any experience or training in conducting investigations on the ground. Bears repeating. Working in a prosecutor's office is a far cry from being a prosecutor. Weak, after 20 or 30 or 40 years in anything just because you aren't the boss doesn't mean you don't know or have a clue about who, what, why, how and where of what is said, done or going on especially methods. It's not a vacuum...
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 3, 2023 20:32:55 GMT -5
By the nature of this case, you could say that all workers everywhere are 'suspects,' as all are under suspicion, at least until we see the ultimate course of this matter. To have a suspect, don't you first need to have a crime? I'm not aware of a crime that would make all workers everywhere suspects. When it comes to CSA, there doesn't need to be any proof of a crime to call for an investigation. Children are not normally in a position to initiate an investigation by themselves. But there does need to be a report to law enforcement, and medical as well, if suspicious signs are observed. The investigation, by itself, is not an indictment, but it is the only viable way to rectify an abusive situation.
|
|