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Post by mountain on Apr 3, 2023 14:32:33 GMT -5
Can you clarify what you mean by "low percentage"? All I said is there have been cases of false allegations. 2% - 8% depending on the study. In many cases suspected false allegations are written off as 'unsubstantiated.' Deliberate false allegations, although not rare, are also not very common. Often the mental condition of the complainer (attention seeking etc), overactive imagination, and mistaken perceptions, though not in themselves intended as false, are often written off as being unsubstantiated.
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Post by mountain on Apr 3, 2023 14:35:02 GMT -5
I am very aware that you are not in need of procedural guidance. But some people are. And I apologize for using your words to further my own agenda. That is to keep the focus on support for survivors by reinforcing the responsibility we each have to work at ending this horror. Thank you for your clarification. If indeed my words can be used for the benefit of survivor support, I applaud your actions.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 3, 2023 14:37:00 GMT -5
Mountain: ".... could say that all workers everywhere are 'suspects,' as all are under suspicion..."I can understand how this issue can raise suspicion toward workers. But I disagree with what you wrote and it's an inaccurate statement. Not all and not everywhere. Perhaps you need to just speak for yourself. You suspect all everywhere because of the system....until otherwise is determined. If you appreciate how this issue can raise suspicion toward workers, how can you not appreciate that all workers may be liable to suspicion, especially in view of the potential for extended and international reaches provided by the system? I fully appreciate that most workers are above reproach, but the actions and position of those like Bruer cast a shadow of doubt over the whole ministerial system. There can hardly be a single worker across the globe who is now aware of the details of this unfolding case, who do not feel they themselves are under some sort of scrutiny or suspicion. It goes with the territory. Also there are many who are now questioning the integrity of workers everywhere are a result of this and previous cases. This is why actions should be taken with immediate effect, to reduce the chances of these incidents occurring, including the prohibition of of workers staying in homes where there are unrelated children, vulnerable persons, or persons of the opposite sex when their spouses are away. Until such things are brought strictly into play, not only will suspicions continue but actual incidents as well! Keep in mind I did qualify my statements (twice so far) by saying don't get too hung up about it. If the Bruer case is being investigated with an international dimension, then potentially all workers fall under possible suspicion, while the unknown factor prevails. Thank you for your explanation. I note you use phrases like "may be liable" and "possible suspicion". That is not congruent with "all workers everywhere are 'suspects', as all are under suspicion." Well, of course, unless you know for sure that is the case.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 3, 2023 14:41:19 GMT -5
'A young teenage girl rushes out of a house, sobbing uncontrollably and in a heightened state of distress. She meets a couple walking their dog and screams out that she has just been attacked and raped.' What should happen next? The girl's claims are dismissed on account of her heightened emotional state, OR, should the matter be investigated to discover what the truth is? /quote] In this scenario I believe that the correct option for the couple if they reside in Canada or the USA is to call 1-800-387-5437. This is a hotline that will direct your reporting to the next step required. If the couple believe there is immediate danger the call should be to 911. All adults have a duty to report. Some adults, because of their profession or roll in activities in which children participate have an obligation to report. Failure to do so may result in a fine. A child is anyone under the age of 18 in my country. I am not sure how emancipated minors are regarded by the law in this instance so I would call regardless of the status. Adults have a duty to report. Not a duty to investigate. Child Protection Services and the police do the investigating. Thank you meg for posting this. This is the type of thing people need to be informed about. The authorities would rather people report these things to them instead doing the investigation themselves.
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Post by mountain on Apr 3, 2023 14:59:17 GMT -5
If you appreciate how this issue can raise suspicion toward workers, how can you not appreciate that all workers may be liable to suspicion, especially in view of the potential for extended and international reaches provided by the system? I fully appreciate that most workers are above reproach, but the actions and position of those like Bruer cast a shadow of doubt over the whole ministerial system. There can hardly be a single worker across the globe who is now aware of the details of this unfolding case, who do not feel they themselves are under some sort of scrutiny or suspicion. It goes with the territory. Also there are many who are now questioning the integrity of workers everywhere are a result of this and previous cases. This is why actions should be taken with immediate effect, to reduce the chances of these incidents occurring, including the prohibition of of workers staying in homes where there are unrelated children, vulnerable persons, or persons of the opposite sex when their spouses are away. Until such things are brought strictly into play, not only will suspicions continue but actual incidents as well! Keep in mind I did qualify my statements (twice so far) by saying don't get too hung up about it. If the Bruer case is being investigated with an international dimension, then potentially all workers fall under possible suspicion, while the unknown factor prevails. Thank you for your explanation. I note you use phrases like "may be liable" and "possible suspicion". That is not congruent with "all workers everywhere are 'suspects', as all are under suspicion." Well, of course, unless you know for sure that is the case. By the very nature of the case in question with its potential for international involvement, how do you include some workers in suspicion and exclude others, until facts and circumstances dictate otherwise. I am assuming that you understand the need to keep an open mind during investigations, until facts and circumstances point you in a definite line. Take a dance hall full of revellers. If someone gets stabbed on the dance floor, everyone is a potential suspect until enquiries point in the direction of a suspect. Again I ask that people do not get hung up on this. It is an investigative position. There is so much that we don't know as yet about the Bruer case, and we can only hope and pray that it is much more limited in its scope than has been initially portrayed, but the unknown elements in the case extend suspicions across the ministerial sphere.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 3, 2023 15:14:26 GMT -5
By the very nature of the case in question with its potential for international involvement, how do you include some workers in suspicion and exclude others, until facts and circumstances dictate otherwise. I am assuming that you understand the need to keep an open mind during investigations, until facts and circumstances point you in a definite line. Take a dance hall full of revellers. If someone gets stabbed on the dance floor, everyone is a potential suspect until enquiries point in the direction of a suspect. Again I ask that people do not get hung up on this. It is an investigative position. There is so much that we don't know as yet about the Bruer case, and we can only hope and pray that it is much more limited in its scope than has been initially portrayed, but the unknown elements in the case extend suspicions across the ministerial sphere. As to what I highlighted, mtn: Surely there is a better example for comparison. A dancehall full of revelers is quite different than an international fellowship of believers who do not all meet together at the same time. Yes, do keep an open mind. Good luck with your investigation.
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Post by mountain on Apr 3, 2023 15:37:22 GMT -5
By the very nature of the case in question with its potential for international involvement, how do you include some workers in suspicion and exclude others, until facts and circumstances dictate otherwise. I am assuming that you understand the need to keep an open mind during investigations, until facts and circumstances point you in a definite line. Take a dance hall full of revellers. If someone gets stabbed on the dance floor, everyone is a potential suspect until enquiries point in the direction of a suspect. Again I ask that people do not get hung up on this. It is an investigative position. There is so much that we don't know as yet about the Bruer case, and we can only hope and pray that it is much more limited in its scope than has been initially portrayed, but the unknown elements in the case extend suspicions across the ministerial sphere. As to what I highlighted, mtn: Surely there is a better example for comparison. A dancehall full of revelers is quite different than an international fellowship of believers who do not all meet together at the same time. Yes, do keep an open mind. Good luck with your investigation. I have no doubt a better example could have been chosen, however I suspect that most would have grasped sufficient details from the analogy. Perhaps I should have said an international fellowship which has considerable interaction amongst the hierarchy, nowadays linked even more closely with mobile phones and the internet, and which practices intimate and unnatural domestic relationships? The fact these type of cases are surfacing in a number of countries within the fellowship hierarchy leaves a lot of scope for impropriety. Also the past history of moving offending workers to other countries, reportedly in a bid to escape the clutches of the law, adds further potential and speculation. It does seem that by your persistence you are keen to take this matter to a higher level than the by product that I intended. I retired from investigations a long time ago and learned the value of keeping an open mind. It helps to avoid being caught out by being led up the wrong path. Even this board has shown the extent of suspicion, justified or otherwise.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 3, 2023 15:43:01 GMT -5
Thank you for your explanation. I note you use phrases like "may be liable" and "possible suspicion". That is not congruent with "all workers everywhere are 'suspects', as all are under suspicion." Well, of course, unless you know for sure that is the case. By the very nature of the case in question with its potential for international involvement, how do you include some workers in suspicion and exclude others, until facts and circumstances dictate otherwise. I am assuming that you understand the need to keep an open mind during investigations, until facts and circumstances point you in a definite line. Take a dance hall full of revellers. If someone gets stabbed on the dance floor, everyone is a potential suspect until enquiries point in the direction of a suspect. Again I ask that people do not get hung up on this. It is an investigative position. There is so much that we don't know as yet about the Bruer case, and we can only hope and pray that it is much more limited in its scope than has been initially portrayed, but the unknown elements in the case extend suspicions across the ministerial sphere. Mtn: I hope you don't take my questions and postings personally. It's not meant to be so. It might help to explain where I am coming from. I worked for a prosecutors office (retired now) for many years on sexual assault/abuse cases. I was involved with investigating for the prosecution. Therefore I worked with cops, detectives, court system, etc. We were always open minded about possible suspects. But that goes both directions. People need to also be open minded about who it NOT a suspect. You need to weed out viable suspects from those for whom there is simply no reason to suspect: there is NOTHING pointing at them. I ask you to not get hung up it either and be open minded about things. . There are verifiable facts and there are "circumstances" that can point you in a definite line, true. You are making it sound as if every single worker on the planet is a suspect. How do you plan to narrow it down to a definite line, keeping in mind a definite "line" still may not hold up in court. A "line" is not evidence. Is a "line a "lead"? I am not saying this to dissuade you from your investigation, but where I am coming from is that in the prosecutor's view you need evidence and something that can be proven in court.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 3, 2023 15:47:32 GMT -5
As to what I highlighted, mtn: Surely there is a better example for comparison. A dancehall full of revelers is quite different than an international fellowship of believers who do not all meet together at the same time. Yes, do keep an open mind. Good luck with your investigation. I have no doubt a better example could have been chosen, however I suspect that most would have grasped sufficient details from the analogy. Perhaps I should have said an international fellowship which has considerable interaction amongst the hierarchy, nowadays linked even more closely with mobile phones and the internet, and which practices intimate and unnatural domestic relationships? The fact these type of cases are surfacing in a number of countries within the fellowship hierarchy leaves a lot of scope for impropriety. Also the past history of moving offending workers to other countries, reportedly in a bid to escape the clutches of the law, adds further potential and speculation. It does seem that by your persistence you are keen to take this matter to a higher level than the by product that I intended. I retired from investigations a long time ago and learned the value of keeping an open mind. It helps to avoid being caught out by being led up the wrong path. Even this board has shown the extent of suspicion, justified or otherwise. Well, in order to go after the world wide fellowship, you need to interview all the friends. Granted, a stabbing on the dance floor is much more finite. You need to keep an open mind about weeding out suspects that are not even close to being suspects so you don't get caught up in being led down a wrong path.
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Post by mountain on Apr 3, 2023 16:12:07 GMT -5
By the very nature of the case in question with its potential for international involvement, how do you include some workers in suspicion and exclude others, until facts and circumstances dictate otherwise. I am assuming that you understand the need to keep an open mind during investigations, until facts and circumstances point you in a definite line. Take a dance hall full of revellers. If someone gets stabbed on the dance floor, everyone is a potential suspect until enquiries point in the direction of a suspect. Again I ask that people do not get hung up on this. It is an investigative position. There is so much that we don't know as yet about the Bruer case, and we can only hope and pray that it is much more limited in its scope than has been initially portrayed, but the unknown elements in the case extend suspicions across the ministerial sphere. Mtn: I hope you don't take my questions and postings personally. It's not meant to be so. It might help to explain where I am coming from. I worked for a prosecutors office (retired now) for many years on sexual assault/abuse cases. I was involved with investigating for the prosecution. Therefore I worked with cops, detectives, court system, etc. We were always open minded about possible suspects. But that goes both directions. People need to also be open minded about who it NOT a suspect. You need to weed out viable suspects from those for whom there is simply no reason to suspect: there is NOTHING pointing at them. I ask you to not get hung up it either and be open minded about things. . There are verifiable facts and there are "circumstances" that can point you in a definite line, true. You are making it sound as if every single worker on the planet is a suspect. How do you plan to narrow it down to a definite line, keeping in mind a definite "line" still may not hold up in court. A "line" is not evidence? Is a "line a "lead? I am not saying this to dissuade you from your investigation, but where I am coming from is that in the prosecutor's view you need evidence and something that can be proven in court. Peggy, we should be singing off the same hymn sheet and probably are, just separated by differences in perspectives. If you re-read my posts you will see that a mind must remain open until facts and circumstances point you in a definite direction. This is what you are alluding to and which I have been saying previously. Until the circumstances of an investigation unfolds, an open mind is a wise one and helps prevent potential suspects slipping through the net. When a crime is notified to the police, during the initial stages of an investigation where suspects are not identified, the lieges (ie the general public or everyone who may have some connection with the matter) are liable to suspicion. When the Bruer case was disclosed but a few days ago, due to the international travelling, contacts, etc., a lot of speculation and perhaps indications, suggested Bruer's activities may have taken place not only across various States but over a number of countries, over a period of many years. At this stage no one knows exactly what is involved or who or where, and I described it like a potential can of worms which could lead almost anywhere. That is/was the potential only a few days ago. It might be different now, but I really don't know. As other workers may be involved from other States or countries, who have not yet been identified, this surely demands an open mind and places the whole ministry under suspicion until relevant facts and circumstances dictate otherwise. This is what I have been trying to explain but also asked people not to get too hung up about it. It is purely an investigative outlook, though a wise one. I notice you point out the prosecutor's view of the need for evidence. I appreciate this fully, couldn't agree more, but remember, a prosecutor (in the UK) is usually delivered the product of an investigation, rather than going through the investigative process of evidence gathering/interviewing suspects, etc., themselves. The police investigate and gather the evidence and when a sufficiency of evidence is gathered a case report is sent to the prosecutor. The police often start with a blank canvas and have to gather the materials which paint the picture. Many aspects of an investigation may not be referred to in a police report. It is many years since I was involved in investigations. I had 30 years experience investigating all manner of crimes including a wide variety of sexual offences.
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Post by mountain on Apr 3, 2023 16:33:11 GMT -5
I have no doubt a better example could have been chosen, however I suspect that most would have grasped sufficient details from the analogy. Perhaps I should have said an international fellowship which has considerable interaction amongst the hierarchy, nowadays linked even more closely with mobile phones and the internet, and which practices intimate and unnatural domestic relationships? The fact these type of cases are surfacing in a number of countries within the fellowship hierarchy leaves a lot of scope for impropriety. Also the past history of moving offending workers to other countries, reportedly in a bid to escape the clutches of the law, adds further potential and speculation. It does seem that by your persistence you are keen to take this matter to a higher level than the by product that I intended. I retired from investigations a long time ago and learned the value of keeping an open mind. It helps to avoid being caught out by being led up the wrong path. Even this board has shown the extent of suspicion, justified or otherwise. Well, in order to go after the world wide fellowship, you need to interview all the friends. Granted, a stabbing on the dance floor is much more finite. You need to keep an open mind about weeding out suspects that are not even close to being suspects so you don't get caught up in being led down a wrong path. Yet again your imagination defies an understanding of the reality of matters. Potentially every worker and friend has the potential to be interviewed by the police IF during the course of an investigation their name comes up as having a possible connection with a matter which has come to light. At present we don't know the extent of any allegations or evidence which may come to light through the examination of Bruer's laptop or interviewing witnesses. This may be a very extensive enquiry or it may be far more limited than first disclosed. Who said anything about going after the world wide fellowship? This is a classic example of reading things into something that someone has said that is not there nor intended! Until we know what has happened, the various locii and who any complaints are made against, the authorities don't know what direction their investigations will be going. Surely you accept the potential of this particular case to have related matters having occurred across the globe, until such is shown otherwise? With this in mind we do not at this time know of any complaints, who any suspects are, and potential witnesses and places concerned. These things will determine the course and nature of investigations. I suspect this case is going to be far less extensive than first portrayed.
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Post by mrdobalina on Apr 3, 2023 17:06:08 GMT -5
Is this going to be a worldwide investigation, or limited to US?
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 3, 2023 17:12:35 GMT -5
Mtn. You are in the UK? Ok. In the US investigating continues until a case goes to court. It doesn’t stop after the cops bring it to a prosecutor. Anyway, it is your imagination which is large here as you indicated every worker everywhere is a suspect. I disagree.
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Post by snow on Apr 3, 2023 17:15:58 GMT -5
Are the friends (the world over) going to be informed that Codes of Conduct, police checks, Ministry Safe training are now in place? I personally don't think that any of those programs guarantee sufficient change. I don't know what those 'codes of conduct' are? The police can't even keep our streets safe let alone an obscure ministry, and 'Ministry Safe' may increase awareness, but I doubt it would dissuade a pervert in disguise.
The Truth is unique in that the Workers eat, sleep, and live with the congregation, so typical 'codes of conduct' would be difficult to implement and regulate. But just as a male gynecologist should never examine a patient without a nurse present, I guess a single Worker can never be alone with an underage child. That's kinda impersonal and sad, but probably a necessary safety rule to protect both.
I wish DB didn't die, he should really be here to answer for all the havoc he caused. Too bad someone didn't finger the fox in the chicken coop earlier. This approach solves nothing. Sex predators seem to rely on it.
These programs will only work for those that aren't predators. That's a given. That's why I feel it's so important that all of the friends are given the tools to know how to spot predators. This doesn't completely give safety, but it does enhance it. It's not just up to the workers and elders to keep children safe, for obvious reasons. Also, the friends need to let go of the belief that the workers can do no harm. When I was growing up in the group that is really what was believed and kids knew that's what their parents believed. The friends need to have access to the same training workers and elders take and they need to change their belief that just because they're a worker or an elder, they won't harm you. That's why transparency is so important. Keeping these things hush hush doesn't arm the friends with knowledge and only knowledge can help lower the possibility of CSA/SA.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 3, 2023 17:23:16 GMT -5
If you are a human with a conscience and think something is happening you should act with due diligence . If you are a mandated reporter you know exactly what your job is ! Not every worker is a suspect however not taking the training and abiding by it , isn’t working . If you suspect and keep your mouth shut for the sake of THE TRUTH YOU ARE COMPLICIT STRAIGHT UP . But Doyle’s letters and other letters from workers are not lining up . They need to get their 💩 in a group . WTH would a 12 year old need to sit on a worker’s lap . Again that is how is mine started . So just being cautious about whose knee your child sits on . MH has stepped back . Not down . Many workers have viewed porn . A part of THE ALBERTA PROBLEM SHOWED SOME WERE VIEWING PORN BACK IN 1996 . More so with the technology that is available . You can’t have a tv with basis cable that has no porn , however a iPad , tablets , laptop is A OK ! Where you can get way more deviant content . However I firmly believe these worker’s are in cahoots with each others . The fact that they state they didn’t know about what was on his laptop doesn’t ring true . If Doyle saw porn , he shouldn’t make the calls as to if the victims are over 18 or so . There are many sex trafficked under the legal age . You can be 14 and look 18 . He should have checked this out further . At this point I have no trust in Doyle S or a few others . This problem is that they don’t feel accountable . They are circling the wagons . CYA is a tactic . Where is the funding that was spoken about for the VICTIMS !! Oh we will worry about that later , RIGHT ? NFL .
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 3, 2023 17:27:28 GMT -5
Is this going to be a worldwide investigation, or limited to US? Who can say? Mtn. Seems to think all workers everywhere are suspect. I disagree with that statement.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 3, 2023 17:33:01 GMT -5
Mtn. You are in the UK? Ok. In the US investigating continues until a case goes to court. It doesn’t stop after the cops bring it to a prosecutor. Anyway, it is your imagination which is large here as you indicated every worker everywhere is a suspect. I disagree. As in Canada as well . I would love more than anything to Yell Their Names From A Rooftop ! I simply cannot . In my circle we speak their names but I can’t speak their names legally . But yes everything is investigated before court/charges come .
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 3, 2023 17:39:27 GMT -5
Mtn. You are in the UK? Ok. In the US investigating continues until a case goes to court. It doesn’t stop after the cops bring it to a prosecutor. Anyway, it is your imagination which is large here as you indicated every worker everywhere is a suspect. I disagree. As in Canada as well . I would love more than anything to Yell Their Names From A Rooftop ! I simply cannot . In my circle we speak their names but I can’t speak their names legally . But yes everything is investigated before court/charges come . Right. The cops bring what they have gathered, but it’s up to the prosecutor whether or not they will be tried in court. That’s for criminal cases. For civil it’s different. Some victims do not get anywhere in criminal court, so they go to civil court. Investigation continues up until the court date and even during the trial as there are times new evidence is brought forward.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 3, 2023 17:42:07 GMT -5
Mtn. You are in the UK? Ok. In the US investigating continues until a case goes to court. It doesn’t stop after the cops bring it to a prosecutor. Anyway, it is your imagination which is large here as you indicated every worker everywhere is a suspect. I disagree. As in Canada as well . I would love more than anything to Yell Their Names From A Rooftop ! I simply cannot . In my circle we speak their names but I can’t speak their names legally . But yes everything is investigated before court/charges come . I would love more than anything not to be having this conversation; the whole subject matter is ugly.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 3, 2023 17:44:22 GMT -5
Is this going to be a worldwide investigation, or limited to US? Who can say? Mtn. Seems to think all workers everywhere are suspect. I disagree with that statement. I can again repeat that I did my due diligence and reported it immediately upon receiving it into my email . So they are looking .They don’t have to tell me anything they receive as in others filing on case id number . It is on CPIC which is Canada wide . However the information about incidents is kept closed till there is enough evidence . I was also a mandated reporter prompted by what transpired with me . I had a duty to protect those who may not be able to protect themselves because of TRUST . We were absolutely told to trust the worker’s as children . It was verbally beaten into our heads on a constant basis ! That we were to revere the worker’s and follow their instructions . Which opened the door for predatory behavior . I don’t like seeing this either or having to relive events . Tears people apart . Some may heal from it yes . However from 2-13 years of age I was a victim . I ended up being a victim again in 2016 and 2018 and 2021 . There are other incidents I didn’t report . In hindsight I should have and I probably would not have been raped in that instance . So unfortunately my trauma just keeps piling up and follows me . As happens to other victims as well .
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Post by snow on Apr 3, 2023 17:48:38 GMT -5
Mtn. You are in the UK? Ok. In the US investigating continues until a case goes to court. It doesn’t stop after the cops bring it to a prosecutor. Anyway, it is your imagination which is large here as you indicated every worker everywhere is a suspect. I disagree. I think what I'm understanding Mountain to say is that, here we are again with yet another incidence of CSA/SA by a worker. This worker had over 400 glowing comments on his memorial page. This worker was never in a million years suspected to be a predator by the friends. So if he now has been implicated and survivors of his actions have come forward, the logical question is, who can be trusted anymore? It will take a long time before complacency settles in for this group and imo that's good and bad. Bad because they feel so betrayed and good because it will make it harder for it to happen to others in the future. I think that this time it's reached a very large number of the friends vs only a few in an isolated area. Because he traveled so extensively, he has people from all over the world that trusted him implicitly and now they find out what he was. It's going to be a long time before people have the same level of trust for the upper echelons of power, if ever. While I hope that some level of trust can be reached again, I hope it's never at the level that allows for predators to have better access to future victims. Trust can come again, but only if some things change. I recognize that the workers might not like those changes and I imagine the friends might not like them either, but if they continue to stay in the friends homes that have children, they open those children up to the possibility. Protecting them is far more important than the 'good feeling' that might be there for the workers that stay and the families that house them. It's got to be obvious now that even with the training and codes of conduct, that predators don't listen to them. So everyone suffers when the few do offend. But children need to be safe, bottom line.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Apr 3, 2023 17:51:20 GMT -5
Obviously for legal reasons one cannot name someone against whom there is not a recorded conviction. But I have heard the same. I also understand that the State of Queensland in Australia has refused to sign up to childsafe code of conduct. Aren't you the same person bleating over breach of privacy regarding the Dean Bruer exposure? Why are you wanting this person publicly named? Not at all Elizabeth, in fact it was you bleating about privacy when I made a tongue in cheek comment about your buddy's speculation and idle speak on Facebook. Stop creating a false narrative. I find it odd that you and Rosyln after all this choose to conceal the identity of someone accused. It is the exact same with Mark Huddle, he is only accused. Why are you hiding it? Blizzre. Go about naming people publically with no first hand knowledge or evidence? No, I don't do that. Those within the group who DO have this knowledge have that responsibility. Why aren't you holding them responsible?
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 3, 2023 17:55:57 GMT -5
Every minute we sit here discussing letters and who knows and bleating and being self righteous of what is going on . ANOTHER CHILD IS BEING RAPED ! Focus on that . What can you do ? Check out laws from where ever you live . If we remain quiet it continues !
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Post by mountain on Apr 3, 2023 18:19:21 GMT -5
Mtn. You are in the UK? Ok. In the US investigating continues until a case goes to court. It doesn’t stop after the cops bring it to a prosecutor. Anyway, it is your imagination which is large here as you indicated every worker everywhere is a suspect. I disagree. Same over here with investigations. Furthermore, you seem to be lacking in understanding about conducting an investigation. I think your position is akin to coming in somewhere after an investigation has established core facts and circumstances. If I am investigating a case which may potentially include multiple accused, witnesses and crimes spread over a wide area, within a certain community and I have only been given sparse details of a case along with potentially widespread similar matters within a large community, but initially do not have much to go on, other than the potential for multiple accused, it is only common sense that you keep an open mind with regards to the possible involvement of anyone who could later be incrimination. Currently the whole system is suspect and that view can easily be drawn from the interactions on this board. You may disagree with my statement about every worker being under suspicion but I used the term as a generalisation and yet again you insist on raising the bar above what was intended. Imagine a scenario. At convention a young girl is molested in a male workers' tent. She does not know who her attacker was, nor can she adequately describe him other than to say it was a male. The tent is shared by ten workers. The matter is reported and all the information we have is that a young girl was sexually molested in a workers' tent after having been sent there by a sister worker to deliver clean linen. A solitary male is within the tent who sexually assaults her. This is all we know at the start of the investigation. The girl is taken to a safe place for medical examination and interview, etc. Now that the matter has been reported to the police, there is the danger that the culprit may abscond. At this stage of the enquiry ALL ten workers who use the tent are suspects, until facts and circumstances show otherwise, gradually narrowing the the focus down to the male concerned. It is a process of elimination. If there is the possibility that a worker may be involved untowardly in a matter under investigation, then that worker must be a suspect until cleared by facts and circumstances. The possible international reaches of the Bruer case can be applied on a much more extensive level.
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 662
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 3, 2023 18:33:33 GMT -5
Mtn. You are in the UK? Ok. In the US investigating continues until a case goes to court. It doesn’t stop after the cops bring it to a prosecutor. Anyway, it is your imagination which is large here as you indicated every worker everywhere is a suspect. I disagree. I think what I'm understanding Mountain to say is that, here we are again with yet another incidence of CSA/SA by a worker. This worker had over 400 glowing comments on his memorial page. This worker was never in a million years suspected to be a predator by the friends. So if he now has been implicated and survivors of his actions have come forward, the logical question is, who can be trusted anymore? It will take a long time before complacency settles in for this group and imo that's good and bad. Bad because they feel so betrayed and good because it will make it harder for it to happen to others in the future. I think that this time it's reached a very large number of the friends vs only a few in an isolated area. Because he traveled so extensively, he has people from all over the world that trusted him implicitly and now they find out what he was. It's going to be a long time before people have the same level of trust for the upper echelons of power, if ever. While I hope that some level of trust can be reached again, I hope it's never at the level that allows for predators to have better access to future victims. Trust can come again, but only if some things change. I recognize that the workers might not like those changes and I imagine the friends might not like them either, but if they continue to stay in the friends homes that have children, they open those children up to the possibility. Protecting them is far more important than the 'good feeling' that might be there for the workers that stay and the families that house them. It's got to be obvious now that even with the training and codes of conduct, that predators don't listen to them. So everyone suffers when the few do offend. But children need to be safe, bottom line. Very well said, snow.
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 662
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 3, 2023 18:35:36 GMT -5
Every minute we sit here discussing letters and who knows and bleating and being self righteous of what is going on . ANOTHER CHILD IS BEING RAPED ! Focus on that . What can you do ? Check out laws from where ever you live . If we remain quiet it continues ! Just for the record, I don’t bleat.
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Post by mountain on Apr 3, 2023 18:46:00 GMT -5
Mtn. You are in the UK? Ok. In the US investigating continues until a case goes to court. It doesn’t stop after the cops bring it to a prosecutor. Anyway, it is your imagination which is large here as you indicated every worker everywhere is a suspect. I disagree. I think what I'm understanding Mountain to say is that, here we are again with yet another incidence of CSA/SA by a worker. This worker had over 400 glowing comments on his memorial page. This worker was never in a million years suspected to be a predator by the friends. So if he now has been implicated and survivors of his actions have come forward, the logical question is, who can be trusted anymore? It will take a long time before complacency settles in for this group and imo that's good and bad. Bad because they feel so betrayed and good because it will make it harder for it to happen to others in the future. I think that this time it's reached a very large number of the friends vs only a few in an isolated area. Because he traveled so extensively, he has people from all over the world that trusted him implicitly and now they find out what he was. It's going to be a long time before people have the same level of trust for the upper echelons of power, if ever. While I hope that some level of trust can be reached again, I hope it's never at the level that allows for predators to have better access to future victims. Trust can come again, but only if some things change. I recognize that the workers might not like those changes and I imagine the friends might not like them either, but if they continue to stay in the friends homes that have children, they open those children up to the possibility. Protecting them is far more important than the 'good feeling' that might be there for the workers that stay and the families that house them. It's got to be obvious now that even with the training and codes of conduct, that predators don't listen to them. So everyone suffers when the few do offend. But children need to be safe, bottom line. Sorry Snow but you are mistaken about my position. I am making comments from training and 30 years experience in the field of criminal investigations. It is not about trust or here we go again. It is about a professional approach using standard investigative procedures in order to arrive at the truth of the matter, taking care not to overlook important lines of enquiry. Regarding the risk from CSA etc, yes education and awareness can be a big help in combatting this but it is nowhere adequate enough if a young girl is faced with a fearsome brute of a man (nice, plausible, kindly guys can turn out this way). What is needed are procedures that limit opportunities for temptation to take root. I have gone over some of these before.
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 662
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 3, 2023 18:51:04 GMT -5
Mtn. You are in the UK? Ok. In the US investigating continues until a case goes to court. It doesn’t stop after the cops bring it to a prosecutor. Anyway, it is your imagination which is large here as you indicated every worker everywhere is a suspect. I disagree. Same over here with investigations. Furthermore, you seem to be lacking in understanding about conducting an investigation. I think your position is akin to coming in somewhere after an investigation has established core facts and circumstances. If I am investigating a case which may potentially include multiple accused, witnesses and crimes spread over a wide area, within a certain community and I have only been given sparse details of a case along with potentially widespread similar matters within a large community, but initially do not have much to go on, other than the potential for multiple accused, it is only common sense that you keep an open mind with regards to the possible involvement of anyone who could later be incrimination. Currently the whole system is suspect and that view can easily be drawn from the interactions on this board. You may disagree with my statement about every worker being under suspicion but I used the term as a generalisation and yet again you insist on raising the bar above what was intended. Imagine a scenario. At convention a young girl is molested in a male workers' tent. She does not know who her attacker was, nor can she adequately describe him other than to say it was a male. The tent is shared by ten workers. The matter is reported and all the information we have is that a young girl was sexually molested in a workers' tent after having been sent there by a sister worker to deliver clean linen. A solitary male is within the tent who sexually assaults her. This is all we know at the start of the investigation. The girl is taken to a safe place for medical examination and interview, etc. Now that the matter has been reported to the police, there is the danger that the culprit may abscond. At this stage of the enquiry ALL ten workers who use the tent are suspects, until facts and circumstances show otherwise, gradually narrowing the the focus down to the male concerned. It is a process of elimination. If there is the possibility that a worker may be involved untowardly in a matter under investigation, then that worker must be a suspect until cleared by facts and circumstances. The possible international reaches of the Bruer case can be applied on a much more extensive level. I see you don't like to be called out on inaccurate statements, which is what I did. It's really not wise to make generalizations with regards to this ugly subject matter.
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