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Post by elizabethcoleman on Apr 2, 2023 19:00:51 GMT -5
Elisabeth you post: "The church which claims not to have ministers when they may be charged for hiding CSA, but tries to prove it has ministers when they may be called up for military duty."
I know about workers claiming to be ministers regarding military duty. I could myself source specific instances and details regarding that. I'm not aware of specific instances and details of the church claiming to not have ministers to avoid being charged for hiding CSA. This is of real concern. Kindly post them here Thanks! Jerome Frandle. You'll find the whole thread on this board, called "Jerome Frandle's name on a court document". Quote: The Court: What is this faith Mr. Lessing?Mr. Lessing: You really raise an important point there. There is not specific denomination at all [that] these individuals subscribe to. They believe in Jesus Christ. They believe in what the bible says. There is no denomination. There is no name for these--for the group of people that believe in this form of worship. There is no unified structure. There is no unified chain of command. There, in fact, is nothing. That is why the prosecution cited nothing. They want to show that he had some level of authority or some level of supervisory ability in this “organization” but they can’t even identify the name of the organization that he somehow has authority for.PS - he was the overseer of Michigan. He was jailed after they proved he was indeed a minister/authority in a real organisation, and for failing to report (and concealing) CSA in the group.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 2, 2023 19:02:31 GMT -5
There are more than 42 million survivors of sexual abuse in America. (National Association of Adult Survivors of Child Abuse) 1 in 3 girls are sexually abused before the age of 18. (The Advocacy Center) 1 in 5 boys are sexually abused before the age of 18. (The Advocacy Center) 1 in 5 children are solicited sexually while on the Internet before the age of 18. (National Children’s Alliance: Nationwide Child Abuse Statistics) 30% of sexual abuse is never reported. (Child Sex Abuse Prevention and Protection Center) Nearly 70% of all reported sexual assaults (including assaults on adults) occur to children age 17 and under. (Children’s Advocacy Center) 90% of child sexual abuse victims know the perpetrator in some way. (U.S. Department of Justice)
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Post by chuck on Apr 2, 2023 19:18:49 GMT -5
No, but give me your defenition of predestination?. And I would be curious what made you think that?. Let's go with Merriam-Webster - the doctrine that God in consequence of his foreknowledge of all events infallibly guides those who are destined for salvation You say that Christ died "because of my sin" rather than "for my sin" or the redemption of my sin. Christ died over 2000 years ago and I wasn't alive at that time. So if he died "because" of my sin, it must be predestinated that I would sin in the future. I agree with that definition but I do not believe it eith today's understanding of those words. Jesus the man died 2000 years ago, Christ is like the L O R D, its referring to character traits, not a specific person although a specific person can display whatever those character traits are within the context of any given period, the period you are talking about was 2000 years ago hence Jesus Christ, a man displaying certain character traits as told by various writers in a style that made sense to them. As for today we still crucify the Christ just like people 2000yrs before Jesus. We kill one character to promote another, the Bible in regards to Jesus is asking, is the way you want to live you life Jesus's way, or Caesar's way??.
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Post by internationalstudies on Apr 2, 2023 19:33:58 GMT -5
Elisabeth you post: "The church which claims not to have ministers when they may be charged for hiding CSA, but tries to prove it has ministers when they may be called up for military duty."
I know about workers claiming to be ministers regarding military duty. I could myself source specific instances and details regarding that. I'm not aware of specific instances and This is of real concern. Kindly post them here Thanks! Jerome Frandle. You'll find the whole thread on this board, called "Jerome Frandle's name on a court document". Quote: The Court: What is this faith Mr. Lessing?Mr. Lessing: You really raise an important point there. There is not specific denomination at all [that] these individuals subscribe to. They believe in Jesus Christ. They believe in what the bible says. There is no denomination. There is no name for these--for the group of people that believe in this form of worship. There is no unified structure. There is no unified chain of command. There, in fact, is nothing. That is why the prosecution cited nothing. They want to show that he had some level of authority or some level of supervisory ability in this “organization” but they can’t even identify the name of the organization that he somehow has authority for.PS - he was the overseer of Michigan. He was jailed after they proved he was indeed a minister/authority in a real organisation, and for failing to report (and concealing) CSA in the group. Elisabeth you won't agree with what I post (and I'll be surprised if you don't mock it,) but that doesn't deter me from posting it! There is not specific denomination at all [that] these individuals subscribe to. They believe in Jesus Christ. They believe in what the bible says. There is no denomination. There is no name for these--for the group of people that believe in this form of worship. There is no unified structure. There is no unified chain of command. There, in fact, is nothing. I could see a prosecutor 2000 years ago making a similar statement about the church in the Acts of the Apostles. I am not not 'losing any sleep' about being of a church that is described as Mr Lessing does. Do you acknowledge the following? A) MAY 6, 2019 BY WINGSFORTRUTH2 New Code of Conduct for Workers and Child Safe Policy in South Australia and Northern Territory WINGS applauds the South Australian workers for their recently completed Child Safety programme. WINGS has been advised that Police checks have been completed for all in the SA/NT ministry and all these workers have completed ministry safe training. A SA NT Workers Code of Conduct and a SA NT Child Safe Policy have been shared through all elders in elders meetings and then shared with all who attend the meetings. It appears that this has been well received by all the fellowship members. A clear zero tolerance message has been given by Wayne Dean and Graeme Dalton. B) Code of Conduct “Lo, Children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.” Ps 127.3 “Abstain from all appearance of evil.” 1 Thess 5.22 “Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.” 1 Tim 4.12 Children (Under 18) are a vital part of our fellowship; all Workers are responsible for promoting their safety, protection and well-being. I will: • Adhere to the Child Safe Policy at all times. • Be a positive role model to children. • Set clear boundaries about appropriate behaviour between myself and children and respect a child’s boundaries and personal space. • Listen and respond appropriately to the views and concerns of children. • Be transparent in my actions and whereabouts in relation to contact with children. • The “rule of two” - avoid spending time alone with children, ensuring parents know and support this boundary, and have educated their children about it. • Wear publicly appropriate clothes in common areas during visits with families. • Address inappropriate behaviour towards children. • Follow accepted guidelines relating to physical contact. • Ask for help if I am uncertain about child safety, or this Code of Conduct, or believe I have breached this Code. • Report suspected child abuse and neglect to the authorities as soon as reasonably practicable or legislated. I will not: • Engage in behaviour or communication that causes children to feel uncomfortable, afraid or disempowered. • Use language that is inappropriate, offensive, harassing, abusive, or sexually suggestive or provocative when speaking around children. • Use any computer, mobile phone, video or camera to exploit or harass children. • Allow allegations of abuse to go unreported. • Do things for a child of a personal nature that a child can do for him or herself, such as assisting with toileting. • Hit or physically assault children. This includes refraining from physical punishment or engaging in discipline. • Display favouritism, develop inappropriate or sexual relationships, or indulge in any form of sexual contact with children. • Engage in the grooming of children and/or families. • Rely on my position or my reputation and that of the fellowship to protect me. • Minimise or cover up a suspicion or allegation of abuse. • Investigate a suspicion or allegation of abuse by questioning a child or individuals involved but rather defer the matter to authorities. • Dismiss a child’s concerns or discourage disclosure. • Allow any child to enter a bedroom where I am staying in the company of myself and/or co-worker. Some examples of appropriate and/or acceptable behaviour: • Pats on the shoulder or back and shoulder to shoulder hugs. • Handshakes. • Holding hands while walking with small children. • Sitting beside small children. • Having discussions one on one with older children in publically accessible areas. • Encourage children to respect personal spaces, i.e. knock on doors before entering. Some examples of inappropriate and/or unacceptable behaviour: • Developing intimate or special relationships with children. • Advising children to keep communications or interactions secret. • Holding a small child on the lap except in the presence of an adult member of the family. Lifting or placing a school age or older child on your lap. • Wrestling, tickling, piggy back rides or massaging. • Remarks that relate to sexual attractiveness or development. • Showing physical displays of affection in isolated areas of the premises such as bedrooms, bathrooms, private areas of the home or cars. • Sharing a bedroom with a child. • Inappropriate or lengthy hugs. • Kisses on the mouth. • Touching buttocks, genital areas, chest, knees, thighs or legs. Some examples of environments where additional caution should be used: • Camping environment • Convention grounds • Swimming areas • Physical sporting events • Workers staying with families without a co-worker • I recognise that children have the right to feel safe at all times. • I recognise that child abuse has ongoing impacts and that the first step in healing for survivors starts with telling of their experience. • Should a child disclose abuse to me I will respond with compassion and care. I will not make promises to the child I cannot keep e.g. in relation to a child asking to keep matters confidential. Instead I will advise the child, “I will do everything I can to keep you safe”. • I will do all I can to make the child feel heard and supported. • I will complete mandatory reporting as required. I agree to abide by this Code of Conduct Worker’s Name:............................................................................... Signature:................................................... Date:............................ C) I ask again for specific details of the church claiming to not have ministers to avoid being charged for hiding CSA.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Apr 2, 2023 19:53:54 GMT -5
Jerome Frandle. You'll find the whole thread on this board, called "Jerome Frandle's name on a court document". Quote: The Court: What is this faith Mr. Lessing?Mr. Lessing: You really raise an important point there. There is not specific denomination at all [that] these individuals subscribe to. They believe in Jesus Christ. They believe in what the bible says. There is no denomination. There is no name for these--for the group of people that believe in this form of worship. There is no unified structure. There is no unified chain of command. There, in fact, is nothing. That is why the prosecution cited nothing. They want to show that he had some level of authority or some level of supervisory ability in this “organization” but they can’t even identify the name of the organization that he somehow has authority for.PS - he was the overseer of Michigan. He was jailed after they proved he was indeed a minister/authority in a real organisation, and for failing to report (and concealing) CSA in the group. Elisabeth you won't agree with what I post (and I'll be surprised if you don't mock it,) but that doesn't deter me from posting it! There is not specific denomination at all [that] these individuals subscribe to. They believe in Jesus Christ. They believe in what the bible says. There is no denomination. There is no name for these--for the group of people that believe in this form of worship. There is no unified structure. There is no unified chain of command. There, in fact, is nothing. I could see a prosecutor 2000 years ago making a similar statement about the church in the Acts of the Apostles. I am not not 'losing any sleep' about being of a church that is described as Mr Lessing does. Do you acknowledge the following? A) MAY 6, 2019 BY WINGSFORTRUTH2 New Code of Conduct for Workers and Child Safe Policy in South Australia and Northern Territory WINGS applauds the South Australian workers for their recently completed Child Safety programme. WINGS has been advised that Police checks have been completed for all in the SA/NT ministry and all these workers have completed ministry safe training. A SA NT Workers Code of Conduct and a SA NT Child Safe Policy have been shared through all elders in elders meetings and then shared with all who attend the meetings. It appears that this has been well received by all the fellowship members. A clear zero tolerance message has been given by Wayne Dean and Graeme Dalton. B) Code of Conduct “Lo, Children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.” Ps 127.3 “Abstain from all appearance of evil.” 1 Thess 5.22 “Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.” 1 Tim 4.12 Children (Under 18) are a vital part of our fellowship; all Workers are responsible for promoting their safety, protection and well-being. I will: • Adhere to the Child Safe Policy at all times. • Be a positive role model to children. • Set clear boundaries about appropriate behaviour between myself and children and respect a child’s boundaries and personal space. • Listen and respond appropriately to the views and concerns of children. • Be transparent in my actions and whereabouts in relation to contact with children. • The “rule of two” - avoid spending time alone with children, ensuring parents know and support this boundary, and have educated their children about it. • Wear publicly appropriate clothes in common areas during visits with families. • Address inappropriate behaviour towards children. • Follow accepted guidelines relating to physical contact. • Ask for help if I am uncertain about child safety, or this Code of Conduct, or believe I have breached this Code. • Report suspected child abuse and neglect to the authorities as soon as reasonably practicable or legislated. I will not: • Engage in behaviour or communication that causes children to feel uncomfortable, afraid or disempowered. • Use language that is inappropriate, offensive, harassing, abusive, or sexually suggestive or provocative when speaking around children. • Use any computer, mobile phone, video or camera to exploit or harass children. • Allow allegations of abuse to go unreported. • Do things for a child of a personal nature that a child can do for him or herself, such as assisting with toileting. • Hit or physically assault children. This includes refraining from physical punishment or engaging in discipline. • Display favouritism, develop inappropriate or sexual relationships, or indulge in any form of sexual contact with children. • Engage in the grooming of children and/or families. • Rely on my position or my reputation and that of the fellowship to protect me. • Minimise or cover up a suspicion or allegation of abuse. • Investigate a suspicion or allegation of abuse by questioning a child or individuals involved but rather defer the matter to authorities. • Dismiss a child’s concerns or discourage disclosure. • Allow any child to enter a bedroom where I am staying in the company of myself and/or co-worker. Some examples of appropriate and/or acceptable behaviour: • Pats on the shoulder or back and shoulder to shoulder hugs. • Handshakes. • Holding hands while walking with small children. • Sitting beside small children. • Having discussions one on one with older children in publically accessible areas. • Encourage children to respect personal spaces, i.e. knock on doors before entering. Some examples of inappropriate and/or unacceptable behaviour: • Developing intimate or special relationships with children. • Advising children to keep communications or interactions secret. • Holding a small child on the lap except in the presence of an adult member of the family. Lifting or placing a school age or older child on your lap. • Wrestling, tickling, piggy back rides or massaging. • Remarks that relate to sexual attractiveness or development. • Showing physical displays of affection in isolated areas of the premises such as bedrooms, bathrooms, private areas of the home or cars. • Sharing a bedroom with a child. • Inappropriate or lengthy hugs. • Kisses on the mouth. • Touching buttocks, genital areas, chest, knees, thighs or legs. Some examples of environments where additional caution should be used: • Camping environment • Convention grounds • Swimming areas • Physical sporting events • Workers staying with families without a co-worker • I recognise that children have the right to feel safe at all times. • I recognise that child abuse has ongoing impacts and that the first step in healing for survivors starts with telling of their experience. • Should a child disclose abuse to me I will respond with compassion and care. I will not make promises to the child I cannot keep e.g. in relation to a child asking to keep matters confidential. Instead I will advise the child, “I will do everything I can to keep you safe”. • I will do all I can to make the child feel heard and supported. • I will complete mandatory reporting as required. I agree to abide by this Code of Conduct Worker’s Name:............................................................................... Signature:................................................... Date:............................ C) I ask again for specific details of the church claiming to not have ministers to avoid being charged for hiding CSA.A and B - of course I acknowledge them. Why on earth wouldn't I? But you know this was brought about AFTER the Jerome Frandle episode in the States, and in response to multiple convictions in Australia, and pressure by Exes, and they realised they had to actually take some action because of the pressure being applied? A and B came about because of YEARS of previous denial and obfuscation resulting in much unwanted media attention so they finally were convinced to put some guidelines in place. No moral high ground to be claimed here, my friend. C) the church of which Jerome Frandle was an Overseer. Which part of this eludes you? Some sort of bizarre technicality? Which part of the Jerome Frandle episode are you specifically denying?
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Post by internationalstudies on Apr 2, 2023 20:05:54 GMT -5
Elisabeth Coleman, Excellent! you have acknowledged an Australian code of conduct of the church where it is unambiguously acknowledged that workers are ministers and there is NOTHING to support you allegation of our church claiming to not have ministers to avoid being charged for hiding CSA. I appreciate the opportunity you have given for readers here to know (if they didn't know already) of CSA measures and Code of Conduct that your fellow Australians have implemented! Thank you
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Apr 2, 2023 20:11:49 GMT -5
Elisabeth Coleman, Excellent! you have acknowledged an Australian code of conduct of the church where it is unambiguously acknowledged that workers are ministers and there is NOTHING to support you allegation of our church claiming to not have ministers to avoid being charged for hiding CSA. with appreciation! Ha, you make me laugh. If court transcripts proving the opposite won't convince you, nothing will. I guess it's obvious why you're a member of this church. Carry on.
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Post by internationalstudies on Apr 2, 2023 20:15:12 GMT -5
Elisabeth Coleman, Excellent! you have acknowledged an Australian code of conduct of the church where it is unambiguously acknowledged that workers are ministers and there is NOTHING to support you allegation of our church claiming to not have ministers to avoid being charged for hiding CSA. with appreciation! Ha, you make me laugh. If court transcripts proving the opposite won't convince you, nothing will. I guess it's obvious why you're a member of this church. Carry on. Yes I am a member of the church and very appreciative of what your fellow Australians have implemented in CSA matters.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2023 20:35:36 GMT -5
The allegation against Mark Huddle in and of itself doesn't give much to go on. The fact he has "stepped back" and encouraged it to be shared openly by the other brothers tells me he doesn't have anything to hide. I think it's important to be careful about turning this whole thing into a witch hunt. Anytime correction is needed in any situation, it's important to be careful about how it is done and not go overboard. That doesn't mean you are in any way MINIMIZING the abuse that you DO have knowledge of or ignoring it. From what I can tell, Doyle Smith took good counsel before writing the letters and consulted with a professional counselor before he released the information to the group. And I support that. Victims do not always want things shared with others; would rather keep it confidential. That is their decision and needs to be respected. It depends on how their therapy is going and whether or not they are ready for that step. If that step is taken too soon it can be traumatizing to them. Depending on how their therapy is going, taking that step of disclosure can progress healing and bring a little closure and justice for them. They may help others and if they can help others that can help them. Contrary to what some have said, I do believe there can be HEALING for victims. They will never forget the abuse. But they can heal. And, they can even forgive their abuser. Vinny said another overseer has stepped down. That is simply not accurate. I also got the impression Vinny was the private investigator. I guess he is not. He does seem to be quite emotionally invested in all this. But it's really not helpful to spew such negative things about Doyle Smith like that. Most on here don't know Doyle. Perhaps Vinny does. I don't know. It's concerning and it's sad. But, in all the letters I have knowledge of the workers made it very plain they encouraged anyone to talk to them about it. That's a good thing. If anyone is having a hard time processing this thing, I do hope they get their needs addressed and have a resource. I know numbers aren't all that helpful here but as I've mentioned before there can be healing, I've seen a few I've worked around/with get close to like 80+% of their "life" back.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2023 20:39:17 GMT -5
Latest update verified . Dear WA, N ID, and AK friends and workers, Many of you would be aware that this week some allegations of inappropriate behavior against Mark Huddle have arisen and of course we are all very saddened to hear of this. However, in the interest of a thorough, appropriate response we very much want to make sure that anv and all allegations that come forward are sensitivelv. fullv and properly addressed. As a result of this recent development, Mark has already stepped down from the oversight of the work in WA, N ID and AK so these allegations can be addressed. We feel it is appropriate for Darryl, Wayne and Brian to work together as a team to guide the work there for the time being. If these three brothers need information from previous planning, they will be able to reach out to Mark. They are also welcomed to reach out to any of the surrounding overseers at any time they would consider it advantageous and helpful. We are suggesting this team of brothers guide things there until we are past this initial crisis and it becomes more apparent what should be done in the long term. Darryl is travelling back to Washington as we write, and three of us will be traveling to Washington on Monday to visit with these three brothers and to make any other important visits that may be helpful. The recent events have certainly brought sorrow and concern, but we do know that God has led His people through many tragedies and the kingdom has been strengthened in the end. We hope that all of you will work together with our three brothers as they and we all seek to work together with His leading and grace. As we pass through these difficult times, may we all keep centered on Jesus and not allow ourselves to become centered on any one problem, situation or person. Only with the Lord in the center can any of us do right and find the blessing of God that will more than match any storm that comes our way (Mark 6:36- 41). God's great love for the souls of His people, His servants and the world is what gives us complete hope as we pass through this storm. Sincerely in His care and keeping, Dale S, Jim A, Merlin A, Mike H, Rob N, Scott R, Doyle S SEVEN MEN listed at the bottom of letter. No sister workers. Do they not even recognize that they are so behind the times?!!! That would be at the bottom of my concerns right now...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2023 20:40:33 GMT -5
The allegation against Mark Huddle in and of itself doesn't give much to go on. The fact he has "stepped back" and encouraged it to be shared openly by the other brothers tells me he doesn't have anything to hide. I think it's important to be careful about turning this whole thing into a witch hunt. Anytime correction is needed in any situation, it's important to be careful about how it is done and not go overboard. That doesn't mean you are in any way MINIMIZING the abuse that you DO have knowledge of or ignoring it. From what I can tell, Doyle Smith took good counsel before writing the letters and consulted with a professional counselor before he released the information to the group. And I support that. Victims do not always want things shared with others; would rather keep it confidential. That is their decision and needs to be respected. It depends on how their therapy is going and whether or not they are ready for that step. If that step is taken too soon it can be traumatizing to them. Depending on how their therapy is going, taking that step of disclosure can progress healing and bring a little closure and justice for them. They may help others and if they can help others that can help them. Contrary to what some have said, I do believe there can be HEALING for victims. They will never forget the abuse. But they can heal. And, they can even forgive their abuser. Vinny said another overseer has stepped down. That is simply not accurate. I also got the impression Vinny was the private investigator. I guess he is not. He does seem to be quite emotionally invested in all this. But it's really not helpful to spew such negative things about Doyle Smith like that. Most on here don't know Doyle. Perhaps Vinny does. I don't know. It's concerning and it's sad. But, in all the letters I have knowledge of the workers made it very plain they encouraged anyone to talk to them about it. That's a good thing. If anyone is having a hard time processing this thing, I do hope they get their needs addressed and have a resource.
I think Doyle has said all that he can, he has to be somewhat discreet and not jeopardize the investigation or the confidentiality of the victims, so every intimate detail of what he may know can't be relayed, but the basics have been disclosed.
There's also a danger of throwing every Worker under the bus by interpreting every innocent interaction as some sort of perversion. e.g; Reading a story book (Mark Huddle) is hardly any type of assault.
Paranoia could run rampant and its important to remember that 99% of the Workers aren't complicit in any way, shape, or form of what's come to light. They all seem outraged and saddened by how this reflects on the ministry, and its been inferred that steps are being taken to prevent any such recurrence.
Amen...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2023 20:47:47 GMT -5
I will repeat myself , my CSA STARTED BY BEING HOISTED TO A LAP . No so innocent of a act ! I am certain Doyle is taking counsel from a lawyer .
Didn't mean to insinuate that your situation didn't escalate into something degenerate, just that some innocent inter-reactions could be mistakenly construed as something else.
I was simply implying that if reading to a child was all it was, then a witch hunt is not warranted. I once saw a little boy run across the convention ground calling my sisters name, and when he got to her, she bent over, gave him a hug, and told him she was glad to see him there. My other sister spent some time teaching kids how to play the piano. Neither sister (workers) was cuffed and hauled to jail, but in the current atmosphere, they'd probably be walking on egg shells after committing such atrocities. If a brother Worker walked-up behind you, put his hand on your shoulder and asked how you were doing, would you file a police report?
My point is that some normal behavior could be ridiculously viewed as inappropriate when people are put under a microscope.
Yes, most of that is innocent. Scripture talks about natural affection in a good manner. It also says there will be people without it and not in a complimentary manner.
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Post by chuck on Apr 2, 2023 20:53:22 GMT -5
Latest update verified . Dear WA, N ID, and AK friends and workers, Many of you would be aware that this week some allegations of inappropriate behavior against Mark Huddle have arisen and of course we are all very saddened to hear of this. However, in the interest of a thorough, appropriate response we very much want to make sure that anv and all allegations that come forward are sensitivelv. fullv and properly addressed. As a result of this recent development, Mark has already stepped down from the oversight of the work in WA, N ID and AK so these allegations can be addressed. We feel it is appropriate for Darryl, Wayne and Brian to work together as a team to guide the work there for the time being. If these three brothers need information from previous planning, they will be able to reach out to Mark. They are also welcomed to reach out to any of the surrounding overseers at any time they would consider it advantageous and helpful. We are suggesting this team of brothers guide things there until we are past this initial crisis and it becomes more apparent what should be done in the long term. Darryl is travelling back to Washington as we write, and three of us will be traveling to Washington on Monday to visit with these three brothers and to make any other important visits that may be helpful. The recent events have certainly brought sorrow and concern, but we do know that God has led His people through many tragedies and the kingdom has been strengthened in the end. We hope that all of you will work together with our three brothers as they and we all seek to work together with His leading and grace. As we pass through these difficult times, may we all keep centered on Jesus and not allow ourselves to become centered on any one problem, situation or person. Only with the Lord in the center can any of us do right and find the blessing of God that will more than match any storm that comes our way (Mark 6:36- 41). God's great love for the souls of His people, His servants and the world is what gives us complete hope as we pass through this storm. Sincerely in His care and keeping, Dale S, Jim A, Merlin A, Mike H, Rob N, Scott R, Doyle S SEVEN MEN listed at the bottom of letter. No sister workers. Do they not even recognize that they are so behind the times?!!! They think they are following the Bible, little do they know the writers definitely were not thinking of Men in the 2x2 system thousands of years later. Like I say, sit behind scripture not in front of it, all you do sitting in front of it is misuse it and misunderstand it, that applies to those who think it's a worthless book also but more so to the people who turn it into a weapon.....
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 2, 2023 20:54:55 GMT -5
In all fairness, at this point in time that is an unfounded allegation. Someone said that someone told them about this event. Second hand account? MH is doing the appropriate thing, IMO. In all fairness, names aside, (let’s just be hypothetical here) it worries me when someone downplays the reported situation. A male member of a clergy (any religion) holds an 11 year old girl on his lap to read a book (or any other activity). Puberty is 8-13 in females. Not appropriate. To classify this as “reading a book” is worrisome to me and seems purposefully discounting. Verna, I wasn't downplaying or discounting purposefully, the situation. Having someone sit on your lap at that age like that could be part of grooming behavior. However, the allegation in and of itself would be torn apart in court as it is indeed hearsay. It is not evidence of grooming or abuse. Is it appropriate? No. But we don't know anything else at this point.
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 2, 2023 21:05:48 GMT -5
Ha, you make me laugh. If court transcripts proving the opposite won't convince you, nothing will. I guess it's obvious why you're a member of this church. Carry on. Yes I am a member of the church and very appreciative of what your fellow Australians have implemented in CSA matters. Yet even after this was implemented, there is still a Worker in Qld (that was called out several years ago about inappropriate behaviour with children) still in the Work ! He should NOT be in the Work around children.
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Post by chuck on Apr 2, 2023 21:09:19 GMT -5
Ha, you make me laugh. If court transcripts proving the opposite won't convince you, nothing will. I guess it's obvious why you're a member of this church. Carry on. Yes I am a member of the church and very appreciative of what your fellow Australians have implemented in CSA matters. Its just window dressing, if they were serious they would not have dodged the National Redress Scheme unless they have signed on with my knowledge.......to many its still a taboo topic because it's really not a problem........ They are only sorry because they been caught with their pants down and one can rarely look at it objectively if one is a enabler of the system.
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Post by chuck on Apr 2, 2023 21:12:09 GMT -5
Yes I am a member of the church and very appreciative of what your fellow Australians have implemented in CSA matters. Yet even after this was implemented, there is still a Worker in Qld (that was called out several years ago about inappropriate behaviour with children) still in the Work ! He should NOT be in the Work around children. I know what you say is true. And people are so enamoured by the system they still make irrational decisions with said worker. Blows my mind.
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 2, 2023 21:18:51 GMT -5
Yes I am a member of the church and very appreciative of what your fellow Australians have implemented in CSA matters. Its just window dressing, if they were serious they would not have dodged the National Redress Scheme unless they have signed on with my knowledge.......to many its still a taboo topic because it's really not a problem........ They are only sorry because they been caught with their pants down and one can rarely look at it objectively if one is a enabler of the system. chuck you have summed it up ! It is just "windows dressing" ! Dodging the Redress Scheme speaks for itself. I hope after what has come out in the US that there will be change...but I will be surprised if it does.
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 2, 2023 21:21:15 GMT -5
Yet even after this was implemented, there is still a Worker in Qld (that was called out several years ago about inappropriate behaviour with children) still in the Work ! He should NOT be in the Work around children. I know what you say is true. And people are so enamoured by the system they still make irrational decisions with said worker. Blows my mind. It is wrong. There will only be change if the church is sued by victim survivors.
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Post by themaninthemirror on Apr 2, 2023 21:39:40 GMT -5
I would say in stating outrage over the one scenario (FB group) and joining in on the discussion of the other scenario (private emails) with no comment at all about that being an invasion of privacy...that's hypocrisy IMO. Personally, I don't have a big issue with either. In both of these scenarios the sender should know what they say is not exactly a private off-the-record discussion. But if I was to rank them, an email is definitely considered more private than a loosely guarded FB group with hundreds of members. Outrage? Seriously? Not at all. Just pointing out the inappropriateness and nonsensical nature of posting random comments (with no context) in a public forum about content in a private forum. Let’s not kid ourselves – the only reason Dean Bruer is all over the internet is because of his own sins. "Invasion of Privacy" Are you kidding? The information in Doyle's letter did need to be made public, and Doyle (to his credit) was in the process of doing that. This was not a "private" matter - it already involves a number of victims who asked that the abuse be made public. Doyle's letter was not private correspondence to another person. It was to a wide range of people in whose areas Dean had been, and to people who may have been affected. Like it or not, this would need to include PAST members who also need to be informed what has transpired. And there will likely be more victims of the same abuser. You refer to the release of Doyle's letter as an "invasion of privacy" - WHOSE privacy??? Sorry, but I completely disagree. It is NOT an invasion of privacy to release a letter about a known abuser to all who have been in his areas. It is the usual and appropriate course of action in such cases. "All over the internet" includes the change of information on his memorial tribute page too. Again, appropriate. Is that an invasion of privacy? Word would have gotten to the internet sooner or later, regardless of whether Doyle's letter was reproduced. But with allegations such as this, evidence was needed. Doyle’s letter was hardcore evidence. Call me cynical, but doesn’t this group have a strong track record of lying about the past and covering evidence? Of course evidence was needed. We exes have all learnt that the hard way. We now collect evidence wherever possible, because otherwise we’ll be called liars. Instead, we present the evidence and are called a million other names (like hypocrites, bitter, etc), but whatever, at least we can prove it. As Wally would say, damned if you do, damned if you don’t. But if you really want to talk hypocrisy, let's do it. The church which claims not to be an organisation but actually secretly registers itself all over the place. The church which claims not to be a denomination but is a worldwide specific denomination. The church which claims not to have ministers when they may be charged for hiding CSA, but tries to prove it has ministers when they may be called up for military duty. The church which condemns all other churches for taking public collections while taking huge private donations and hiding them. The church which condemns all other churches for having church buildings while spending millions on its convention grounds. I have a long list. Want me to keep going? Condescending and argumentative? These surely aren't the traits you are trying to display. I'm surprised you find this worthy of debate Elizabeth, but I guess it's a great way to get a good shot or two in.
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Post by internationalstudies on Apr 2, 2023 21:52:42 GMT -5
Its just window dressing, if they were serious they would not have dodged the National Redress Scheme unless they have signed on with my knowledge.......to many its still a taboo topic because it's really not a problem........ They are only sorry because they been caught with their pants down and one can rarely look at it objectively if one is a enabler of the system. chuck you have summed it up ! It is just "windows dressing" ! Dodging the Redress Scheme speaks for itself. I hope after what has come out in the US that there will be change...but I will be surprised if it does. windowdressing! Nothing the church could or would ever do would satisfy or met the standards of a certain posters. But it notes appreciation by people who understand: MAY 6, 2019 BY WINGSFORTRUTH2New Code of Conduct for Workers and Child Safe Policy in South Australia and Northern TerritoryWINGS applauds the South Australian workers for their recently completed Child Safety programme. WINGS has been advised that Police checks have been completed for all in the SA/NT ministry and all these workers have completed ministry safe training. A SA NT Workers Code of Conduct and a SA NT Child Safe Policy have been shared through all elders in elders meetings and then shared with all who attend the meetings. It appears that this has been well received by all the fellowship members. A clear zero tolerance message has been given by Wayne Dean and Graeme Dalton.There have been sad and wrong things happen in the past in our church, honest people acknowledge this has sadly happened in many churches and organisation. We are so appreciate that Codes of Conduct, police checks, Ministry Safe training are now in place. But of course that will mean nothing much to those whose primary motive is to criticise the church they were once part of. No one loses too much sleep over their 'vain jangling'. 🤷♂️😳🤣😋
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 662
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 2, 2023 22:05:36 GMT -5
I can see this thread has devolved into many arguments and debates. I don't think that's very helpful for anyone, including victims.
I think one of the very best ways to prevent CSA is for PARENTS to be knowledgable, aware, vigilant, and teach the kids too. In this day and age one almost cannot be too careful. We need more Mamma Bears in our society at large. Many of the ills in society are directly related to poor parenting. Most organizations that involve kids have put into place safeguards to prevent CSA. And, anyone that gives any kind of service such as the medical field has safeguards and training of what is inappropriate, what is confidential, and what to do if abuse is suspected.
Also important: How to help someone who has been abused (past or current) get the help/therapy they need. Because they ARE going to need it. I would be the last person to ever discount or disbelieve a victim. But, I am not overly emotional about it. I have dealt with it so much. I tend to be solution oriented. Get the person into professional help, if they are willing. Some are not willing, or they are just afraid to face the demons (again). Victims find ways to carry on with life and they can keep their abuse compartmentalized for a long time before they realize they need to get some official therapy withs someone who really knows what they are doing. One of the hardest things a victim does is come forth with the abuse and actually tell someone about it. Some victims NEVER tell anyone. Ever. I have had victims/survivors tell me about their abuse and I am the first or only person they have told. And we're talking someone who may have been abused many years ago.
The harsh reality is a sexual predator can be very sneaky and very believable. And, they can have all the proper training in the world about what is inappropriate or not. They may know they shouldn't do certain things or engage in certain things, but they find a way to do it anyway. Most sex offenders have been sexually abused themselves. Do they ever get better and not become a sex offender anymore? With good therapy, they can and not reoffend. But, they should NOT be around children or have access to children. Period. Background checks are probably a good idea, but will only tell you so much as many sexual predators can operate under the radar for a long time and have no history so speak of.
Another aspect in our current day to consider is the degree of ONLINE GROOMING that predators are using. So, parents need to be very careful about that with their kids.
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Post by Grant on Apr 2, 2023 22:23:18 GMT -5
I can see this thread has devolved into many arguments and debates. I don't think that's very helpful for anyone, including victims. I think one of the very best ways to prevent CSA is for PARENTS to be knowledgable, aware, vigilant, and teach the kids too. In this day and age one almost cannot be too careful. We need more Mamma Bears in our society at large. Many of the ills in society are directly related to poor parenting. Most organizations that involve kids have put into place safeguards to prevent CSA. And, anyone that gives any kind of service such as the medical field has safeguards and training of what is inappropriate, what is confidential, and what to do if abuse is suspected. Also important: How to help someone who has been abused (past or current) get the help/therapy they need. Because they ARE going to need it. I would be the last person to ever discount or disbelieve a victim. But, I am not overly emotional about it. I have dealt with it so much. I tend to be solution oriented. Get the person into professional help, if they are willing. Some are not willing, or they are just afraid to face the demons (again). Victims find ways to carry on with life and they can keep their abuse compartmentalized for a long time before they realize they need to get some official therapy withs someone who really knows what they are doing. One of the hardest things a victim does is come forth with the abuse and actually tell someone about it. Some victims NEVER tell anyone. Ever. I have had victims/survivors tell me about their abuse and I am the first or only person they have told. And we're talking someone who may have been abused many years ago. The harsh reality is a sexual predator can be very sneaky and very believable. And, they can have all the proper training in the world about what is inappropriate or not. They may know they shouldn't do certain things or engage in certain things, but they find a way to do it anyway. Most sex offenders have been sexually abused themselves. Do they ever get better and not become a sex offender anymore? With good therapy, they can and not reoffend. But, they should NOT be around children or have access to children. Period. Background checks are probably a good idea, but will only tell you so much as many sexual predators can operate under the radar for a long time and have no history so speak of. Another aspect in our current day to consider is the degree of ONLINE GROOMING that predators are using. So, parents need to be very careful about that with their kids. Thanks for your post. Many sex offenders have been abused themselves but please make it clear that most people who have been abused do NOT go on to offend. With online material I think the criteria of sex offenders may widen.
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 2, 2023 22:24:24 GMT -5
chuck you have summed it up ! It is just "windows dressing" ! Dodging the Redress Scheme speaks for itself. I hope after what has come out in the US that there will be change...but I will be surprised if it does. windowdressing! Nothing the church could or would ever do would satisfy or met the standards of a certain posters. But it notes appreciation by people who understand: MAY 6, 2019 BY WINGSFORTRUTH2New Code of Conduct for Workers and Child Safe Policy in South Australia and Northern TerritoryWINGS applauds the South Australian workers for their recently completed Child Safety programme. WINGS has been advised that Police checks have been completed for all in the SA/NT ministry and all these workers have completed ministry safe training. A SA NT Workers Code of Conduct and a SA NT Child Safe Policy have been shared through all elders in elders meetings and then shared with all who attend the meetings. It appears that this has been well received by all the fellowship members. A clear zero tolerance message has been given by Wayne Dean and Graeme Dalton.There have been sad and wrong things happen in the past in our church, honest people acknowledge this has sadly happened in many churches and organisation. We are so appreciate that Codes of Conduct, police checks, Ministry Safe training are now in place. But of course that will mean nothing much to those whose primary motive is to criticise the church they were once part of. No one loses too much sleep over their 'vain jangling'. 🤷♂️😳🤣😋 So internationalstudies, do you think it's okay for a Worker who has a very well known past to still be in the Work around children ? As for "vain jangling" I will assume you really are not aware of what some people, on here have done or who they have taken their concerns about this issue to ? By the way do you live in Australia?
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Post by verna on Apr 2, 2023 22:30:51 GMT -5
SEVEN MEN listed at the bottom of letter. No sister workers. Do they not even recognize that they are so behind the times?!!! That would be at the bottom of my concerns right now... You fail to see the implications. Not surprised.
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Post by verna on Apr 2, 2023 22:39:28 GMT -5
In all fairness, names aside, (let’s just be hypothetical here) it worries me when someone downplays the reported situation. A male member of a clergy (any religion) holds an 11 year old girl on his lap to read a book (or any other activity). Puberty is 8-13 in females. Not appropriate. To classify this as “reading a book” is worrisome to me and seems purposefully discounting. Verna, I wasn't downplaying or discounting purposefully, the situation. Having someone sit on your lap at that age like that could be part of grooming behavior. However, the allegation in and of itself would be torn apart in court as it is indeed hearsay. It is not evidence of grooming or abuse. Is it appropriate? No. But we don't know anything else at this point. I was referring to Dan referring to this as “reading a book”.
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Post by chuck on Apr 2, 2023 23:38:35 GMT -5
I know what you say is true. And people are so enamoured by the system they still make irrational decisions with said worker. Blows my mind. It is wrong. There will only be change if the church is sued by victim survivors. Many are still in denial.
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Post by fixit on Apr 2, 2023 23:41:31 GMT -5
There have been sad and wrong things happen in the past in our church, honest people acknowledge this has sadly happened in many churches and organisation. We are so appreciate that Codes of Conduct, police checks, Ministry Safe training are now in place. But of course that will mean nothing much to those whose primary motive is to criticise the church they were once part of. No one loses too much sleep over their 'vain jangling'. 🤷♂️😳🤣😋 Are the friends (the world over) going to be informed that Codes of Conduct, police checks, Ministry Safe training are now in place?
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