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Post by elizabethcoleman on Mar 31, 2023 16:52:45 GMT -5
Latest letter from Doyle S. Tap to enlarge. As usual the internet is full of mis-information and speculation. Thank you Doyle for the transparency. For those who are speaking idle words and yet like to present themselves as religious, refer to Matthew 12:36. To summarise: - Dean passed away, his computer was accessed to get the list but his laptop wasn't "inspected" at that point. - Within 3 months of his death, 2 adult women came forward to say they had either an adult / adult relationship or an adult/minor abuse in the past, but the survivors are now adult (it isn't clear). - As a result of this revelation they looked at his computer and found Dean had looked at porn but nothing minor related, again, this was immoral but not illegal. - As more survivors came forward who were all adults there was no requirement to report abuse of a deceased abuser and it is up to the survivor to make that decision. I guess someone will find a big fault with this approach, but having known two abuse survivors (neither were minors), I completely see the point about it being sensitive to their needs - particularly when the abuser is dead. We have already had Mr Landless give one of his famous extended and detailed analysis of the situation on the Facebook group. I am looking forward to his 15 point analysis of this letter. Maybe Mr Landless should refer to Matthew 12:36 when he is spending his evening writing his next facebook post Your mention of an another person's comments in another (private) forum is completely strange and inappropriate. They cannot be perused here, and people choose their own forums in which to participate, so go back to facebook where you are identifiable and respond to him there in context. Or perhaps it has gotten to hot for you. And stop idly flinging scripture about.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Mar 31, 2023 17:01:18 GMT -5
Latest letter from Doyle S. Tap to enlarge. If this latest communication from Doyle fails to assure readers of the integrity and transparency with which he is handling this awful business. Then I don't think anything would/will.🤷♂️ There has been numerous incorrect statements and baseless speculation presented by a small clique of determined posters on this forum. It appears their primary motive is 'to have crack' at the church/fellowship they have come to despise, rather than have a primary concern for victims? I'm not expecting them to retract or apologise for their incorrect statements and baseless speculation/ 'alternative facts' that they have been seeking to influence readers of this forum with over the past week. Welcome to the Wild West world of the internet! Where without some discernment and checking, you'll get taken for a ride! We're all after some discernment and checking, I assure you. With some discernment and checking, the members of the fellowship mightn't have endure having to be taken for a ride by morallly bankrupt spiritual leaders. I think readers of the internet are intelligent enough to figure things out for themselves. In the context of the 2x2 fellowship, it's usually the only place they have access to true / historical information about the group.
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Post by SharonArnold on Mar 31, 2023 17:12:27 GMT -5
Holy cow.
I am an infrequent reader of these boards, and an even more infrequent poster these days, even though these (and similar) boards and many of the people who have posted here have been an important part of my journey in past years.
It is with a sense of disbelief and incredulity that I read all of this. To me, the fallibility of the workers has been well established since the 1970’s with the sexual misconduct in the 2X2 ministry at that time. There has been much since. And here we are, 50 years later, and the same kind of thing is happening, albeit apparently enabled by technological advances.
I never knew Dean Bruer, but I have known many who have posted reactions to him, both positive and negative. It seems apparent he was quite personable, with an engaging manner of speaking, and that he meant a lot to many people through the years.
I like many of the letters from the overseers, apparently embracing accountability and transparency. If there is substance to this, I can only respect it, and wish everyone continued growth and all the best moving forward.
But I am reminded of a spirit within this ministry, exemplified by what was once referred to as the Schultz doctrine “Whether the decision is right or wrong, the right thing for all of us is to respect it because of those who have made the judgement.” (http://www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_later/shultz.php), and I am wary. Very wary.
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Post by mountain on Mar 31, 2023 17:15:02 GMT -5
Latest letter from Doyle S. Tap to enlarge. Dobs, Thanks for posting this. Whatever credence we put on Doyle's latest letter, it certainly suggests the extent of impropriety is considerably less than originally portrayed, which is to be welcomed. This is not to diminish the seriousness with which we must view the cases which have come to light.
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Post by mountain on Mar 31, 2023 17:26:41 GMT -5
Latest letter from Doyle S. Tap to enlarge. If this latest communication from Doyle fails to assure readers of the integrity and transparency with which he is handling this awful business. Then I don't think anything would/will.🤷♂️ There has been numerous incorrect statements and baseless speculation presented by a small clique of determined posters on this forum. It appears their primary motive is 'to have crack' at the church/fellowship they have come to despise, rather than have a primary concern for victims? I'm not expecting them to retract or apologise for their incorrect statements and baseless speculation/ 'alternative facts' that they have been seeking to influence readers of this forum with over the past week. Welcome to the Wild West world of the internet! Where without some discernment and checking, you'll get taken for a ride! In fairness we should accept Doyle's latest letter at face value. It would be very stupid of him to try and water things down or seek to reduce the extent and severity of Bruer's perceived behaviour, without there being factual support. As far as baseless speculation and alternative facts are concerned, I can assure you these go with the territory in cases of this nature and basically have little to do with the internet as such, though it does serve as a medium of exacerbation. Do not ignore the fact the past behaviour of the church in these matters has shamefully and deservedly instigated much of the criticism and untoward speculation it has attracted. Now let's move on with clear heads hoping that justice will be served on any living perpetrators and that victims will get the necessary help and support where needed. Goodness knows, the sect needs to fully embrace this outlook not only in a sincere way, but to also help it to move on and survive, whilst strictly following protective measures they should have implemented many years ago. I for one am not after blood. I am for doing what is right.
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Post by snow on Mar 31, 2023 17:57:28 GMT -5
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Post by mountain on Mar 31, 2023 18:05:04 GMT -5
Well Snow, the article certainly supports the chicken came first theory. So we have two choices............either chickens were created, or we have to throw another 50 billion years at it? Well Wally has tried to tell us?
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Post by snow on Mar 31, 2023 18:14:23 GMT -5
I hope what the workers are deciding to do GOING FORWARD is enough to really open peoples' eyes and make needed change.
In addition to requiring mandated reporter and Ministry Safe training for workers, I believe elders and their wives should be required to receive adequate training in how recognize abuse and what steps to take if they have a valid suspicion. In fact, the Friends should be educated about the issue, not just those in authority. Why do I suggest that? Because, I know there have been cases in which an abused minor has gone to an older relative, for example, or their parents with allegations of abuse or inappropriate behaviors-rather than to a worker. Any adult needs to know what to do if a minor comes to them with their concerns. Or even if an adult comes to you with a concern about worker behavior. Because, as with many many groups it's the regular people and often the young people who know what's really going on.
If something gets reported and an agency starts investigating, it really catches peoples' attention. Studies have shown that just asking about abuse is sometimes enough to start changing behaviors.
Part of the problem, as I have been able to discern, is the workers have traditionally sort of isolated themselves from the world and from much that goes on from day to day in the Fellowship. So, the formation of healthy boundaries with others is not allowed to progress very well. Many workers were born and raised in the truth and are a few generations in. So, they were brought up mostly around friends and workers and then once they are in the work, they spend the bulk of their time around friend and workers. I understand they want to separate from the world and all, but is that a good way to test your faith and develop healthy boundaries, not to mention evangelize?
However, an interesting dichotomy has been in play for a long time: The workers are sort of indebted to the friends for food, clothing, shelter. And, the friends look up to the workers for spiritual matters. Some even think that is where their salvation comes through, although I think that mindset is changing. Also, workers and friends are very cautious about how they say things because they don't want to offend anyone. Well, that can be bad because messages that need to be very clear and direct don't come across effectively.
With sexual abuse allegations, it will be one person's word against another's. Unless you have witnesses, (not likely) or hard evidence (forensics, like from a rape kit). So, abusers do often get away with it. The victim thinks no one will believe them; they will believe the abuser. And there's no hard evidence. Many people are dumbfounded in what to do if someone comes to them with allegations of abuse. But that is what mandated reporter knowledge can teach. To REPORT abuse of a minor you do not need hard evidence. As Doyle pointed out in the letter, with an adult, reporting is optional. With a minor, it is NOT. Simply not optional. It's a crime. If one has knowledge of a crime, or is witness to a crime, but does not report it, they can get into trouble. Training about how to spot abusers would be helpful. There are things that pass under the radar because predators are very good at what they do. But if the workers and elders could have training in spotting the 'red flags' better, that would be a good thing. Maybe that is already done in some of their training? If not it could be a separate helpful tool for them. I agree that it's far easier to convict an abuser if it's reported immediately. The rape kit doesn't lie. However, I also know how many do not ever report it due to fear, shame and other very traumatic responses to the assault. I never reported mine and as I got older and realized just how probable it was that the person continued on doing the same thing because I never had the courage to stop it, I have had many regrets. One thing Doyle doesn't address is Dean's phone. He says nothing was altered on the computer, but I have heard the phone was wiped. Did I miss something about him explaining why the phone was wiped if indeed it was?
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Post by snow on Mar 31, 2023 18:14:58 GMT -5
Well Snow, the article certainly supports the chicken came first theory. So we have two choices............either chickens were created, or we have to throw another 50 billion years at it? Well Wally has tried to tell us? lol there ya go!
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 662
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Post by peggysullivan on Mar 31, 2023 18:38:03 GMT -5
Training about how to spot abusers would be helpful. There are things that pass under the radar because predators are very good at what they do. But if the workers and elders could have training in spotting the 'red flags' better, that would be a good thing. Maybe that is already done in some of their training? If not it could be a separate helpful tool for them. I agree that it's far easier to convict an abuser if it's reported immediately. The rape kit doesn't lie. However, I also know how many do not ever report it due to fear, shame and other very traumatic responses to the assault. I never reported mine and as I got older and realized just how probable it was that the person continued on doing the same thing because I never had the courage to stop it, I have had many regrets. One thing Doyle doesn't address is Dean's phone. He says nothing was altered on the computer, but I have heard the phone was wiped. Did I miss something about him explaining why the phone was wiped if indeed it was? Thx snow. Oh, yes, predators can be friendly, charming, polite, entertaining, easy to engage, but sneaky, all sorts of things, huh? I know, I know. Sex offenders can be extremely well behaved. It's how they develop trust. And with trust they can get close to their victims. Then, take a step further and if they also have some sort of authority, it gets worse. I really do believe that many professing girls, (and boys) are quite naive and they just don't realize how someone can be a predator who seems perfectly "nice". I think many professing parents have been naive as well. There are things I regret not doing too snow. BUT, we can help others if they ever come to us needing guidance. We are older and wiser perhaps. If we had it to do over we might do it differently, but who knows. Time and experiences change us. If Dean's phone was truly 'wiped' (that could just be speculation or a rumor that got started) there was a reason for it. You don't just wipe a phone for no reason unless there is something to be ashamed of.
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Post by deepdeep on Mar 31, 2023 18:50:23 GMT -5
One thing Doyle doesn't address is Dean's phone. He says nothing was altered on the computer, but I have heard the phone was wiped. Did I miss something about him explaining why the phone was wiped if indeed it was? Having given and having received "hand-me-down" phones....factory reset is like task #1. That being said...supposedly anything is recoverable? so it probably doesn't matter? Unless it was done specifically to attempt to hide something, in which case it's conspiracy time! If the attempt were made to specifically hide something...you have to destroy it. The argument that it was done to conceal would go something like this: Doyle knew there might be incriminating evidence on the phone and was not savvy enough to realize that merely wiping it in a factory reset would not ultimately conceal past data. Definitely possible I suppose...
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Post by snow on Mar 31, 2023 19:03:34 GMT -5
One thing Doyle doesn't address is Dean's phone. He says nothing was altered on the computer, but I have heard the phone was wiped. Did I miss something about him explaining why the phone was wiped if indeed it was? Having given and having received "hand-me-down" phones....factory reset is like task #1. That being said...supposedly anything is recoverable? so it probably doesn't matter? Unless it was done specifically to attempt to hide something, in which case it's conspiracy time! If the attempt were made to specifically hide something...you have to destroy it. The argument that it was done to conceal would go something like this: Doyle knew there might be incriminating evidence on the phone and was not savvy enough to realize that merely wiping it in a factory reset would not ultimately conceal past data. Definitely possible I suppose...Exactly, a phone set to factory will not destroy what was on the phone. It is retrievable. It could have been done quite innocently knowing the timeline of when they found information that triggered red flags for them on the computer. It was September apparently before they accessed the computer for lists and even then it wasn't until after the adult victim came forward that they looked more thoroughly at the computer and found the searches the night he died. So if they just took the phone after his death and reused it by giving it to another worker, then it would have been a normal thing to set it back to factory settings. Time will tell when investigations continue.
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Dean Bruer
Mar 31, 2023 19:26:09 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 31, 2023 19:26:09 GMT -5
I don't see any point in quoting your favourite book of mythology. It is full of immorality and anyone wanting to lead a decent life would have binned it long ago. This conversation would not be occurring if Bruer and the like had kept their pants on and been leading a decent life. I quoted it for the religiously minded. I am sure your pathway to morality is some form of ever changing guideline of whatever you "feel". Who knows, maybe tomorrow you will be identifying as a three headed, triple gendered goat. Alternatively, you could avoid making assumptions based on nothing but a few words. Silly troll. I don't take anyone seriously who believes in virgin birth. That includes you.
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Post by snow on Mar 31, 2023 19:28:42 GMT -5
I have read the latest letter from Doyle over again and I do have one question. When the first victim came to him why wouldn't he go to the authorities to have it investigated? I know he says because they were adults and it's not mandatory to report it, but didn't he even think that it might be much more extensive than the 2 women that had come forward? It could have been reported without giving the names of the victims by just handing over the lap top when he found the porn and the phone just in case of further names that might be there. It might not have been mandatory because the 2 were adults, but from an investigative pov it should have been understood that it was important to involve the law in case there were others that just hadn't been brave enough to come forward. Also, a letter could have gone out to the friends at that point saying if anyone had inappropriate interactions with Dean because of information that has come to light, then at least the friends would know they weren't the only ones if that was the case and feel more safe reporting it. No names of the already known victims needed to be mentioned just an acknowledgement that this disturbing information had come to light. I totally understand the need to protect the victims. The point is both could have been done. Start an investigation earlier on, letters to the friends encouraging any more victims to come forward, and protecting the names of already known victims.
I also recognize that hindsight is 20/20 so I hope that this will make the workers in the future recognize what needs to be done immediately so an investigation for more victims can be started.
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irish
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Post by irish on Mar 31, 2023 20:08:14 GMT -5
Well Snow, the article certainly supports the chicken came first theory. So we have two choices............either chickens were created, or we have to throw another 50 billion years at it? Well Wally has tried to tell us? The chicken obviously came first. A mindless universe couldn’t come up with the law of reproduction on its own. The clearly is a mind and a designer behind the scenes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2023 20:50:34 GMT -5
Cell phone wipe.
Even back in the early '90s there were programs available that can do military level wipes of computers and such. Some of them were 100% free to download and use. Back in the AOL days. I A$$ume that there are even better ones now.
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 662
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Post by peggysullivan on Mar 31, 2023 20:54:55 GMT -5
I have read the latest letter from Doyle over again and I do have one question. When the first victim came to him why wouldn't he go to the authorities to have it investigated? I know he says because they were adults and it's not mandatory to report it, but didn't he even think that it might be much more extensive than the 2 women that had come forward? It could have been reported without giving the names of the victims by just handing over the lap top when he found the porn and the phone just in case of further names that might be there. It might not have been mandatory because the 2 were adults, but from an investigative pov it should have been understood that it was important to involve the law in case there were others that just hadn't been brave enough to come forward. Also, a letter could have gone out to the friends at that point saying if anyone had inappropriate interactions with Dean because of information that has come to light, then at least the friends would know they weren't the only ones if that was the case and feel more safe reporting it. No names of the already known victims needed to be mentioned just an acknowledgement that this disturbing information had come to light. I totally understand the need to protect the victims. The point is both could have been done. Start an investigation earlier on, letters to the friends encouraging any more victims to come forward, and protecting the names of already known victims. I also recognize that hindsight is 20/20 so I hope that this will make the workers in the future recognize what needs to be done immediately so an investigation for more victims can be started. Well, snow, you bring up some good questions. Could it be, just maybe, the workers and friends, no matter how nice they are have some sort of "illusion" there are two systems of justice? One for the elite and connected and one for the regular folks. Being Dean was an overseer, who had just died, those two things may have caused the lag. Also, it could just be he simply had no idea what to do! We'll likely never know all these things because of the secretive nature of it. But I do know there are many in the faith including some workers who do not in any way like all the secrets. There is a very hard lesson for folks to learn here. Keeping secrets will eventually catch up to people, even after they die.
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Post by Vinny T. on Mar 31, 2023 21:05:59 GMT -5
Info that is known thus far: * Victims across 11 states * 51 people being investigated * Another Overseer has stepped down hmmmm odd timing isn't it? * They knew of 2 victims of Dean Bruer since LAST SEPTEMBER yet they did NOT come forward til now. * They know of at least 3 children he molested/raped * There are many videos from the laptop from they are of is unknown I will give case numbers when I have them. But the case numbers won't come out til people are charged then names will be made public once people are charged. The wording of Doyle's last letter is deceptive but very incriminating if you break down the sentence structure and syntax. His positive and transparent spin is complete bullsh-. If the church was actually transparent they would have came forward in September of last year when they found out. Coming forward AFTER you meet with a private detective in a Shari's for 3.5 hours theeeen coming forward is in no way being transparent. These disgusting people hid it until they couldn't hide it. Then ONLY came forward when they had no choice. I personally have spoken to someone who is high up and not involved with the investigation but found out for me. This is Federal because perpetrators and money crossed state lines and involved multiple minors and there has been an ongoing effort to hid this and cover it up by moving guilty parties instead of involving the authorities. It's been going on for decades. This is going to blow the lid off of this vile and filthy people finally. It's about time.
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Post by verna on Mar 31, 2023 21:14:10 GMT -5
Training about how to spot abusers would be helpful. There are things that pass under the radar because predators are very good at what they do. But if the workers and elders could have training in spotting the 'red flags' better, that would be a good thing. Maybe that is already done in some of their training? If not it could be a separate helpful tool for them. I agree that it's far easier to convict an abuser if it's reported immediately. The rape kit doesn't lie. However, I also know how many do not ever report it due to fear, shame and other very traumatic responses to the assault. I never reported mine and as I got older and realized just how probable it was that the person continued on doing the same thing because I never had the courage to stop it, I have had many regrets. One thing Doyle doesn't address is Dean's phone. He says nothing was altered on the computer, but I have heard the phone was wiped. Did I miss something about him explaining why the phone was wiped if indeed it was? Thx snow. Oh, yes, predators can be friendly, charming, polite, entertaining, easy to engage, but sneaky, all sorts of things, huh? I know, I know. Sex offenders can be extremely well behaved. It's how they develop trust. And with trust they can get close to their victims. Then, take a step further and if they also have some sort of authority, it gets worse. I really do believe that many professing girls, (and boys) are quite naive and they just don't realize how someone can be a predator who seems perfectly "nice". I think many professing parents have been naive as well. There are things I regret not doing too snow. BUT, we can help others if they ever come to us needing guidance. We are older and wiser perhaps. If we had it to do over we might do it differently, but who knows. Time and experiences change us. If Dean's phone was truly 'wiped' (that could just be speculation or a rumor that got started) there was a reason for it. You don't just wipe a phone for no reason unless there is something to be ashamed of. My understanding was simply that it was wiped to give it to another worker to use. That sounded reasonable to me.
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Post by internationalstudies on Mar 31, 2023 21:19:31 GMT -5
If this latest communication from Doyle fails to assure readers of the integrity and transparency with which he is handling this awful business. Then I don't think anything would/will.🤷♂️ There has been numerous incorrect statements and baseless speculation presented by a small clique of determined posters on this forum. It appears their primary motive is 'to have crack' at the church/fellowship they have come to despise, rather than have a primary concern for victims? I'm not expecting them to retract or apologise for their incorrect statements and baseless speculation/ 'alternative facts' that they have been seeking to influence readers of this forum with over the past week. Welcome to the Wild West world of the internet! Where without some discernment and checking, you'll get taken for a ride! We're all after some discernment and checking, I assure you. With some discernment and checking, the members of the fellowship mightn't have endure having to be taken for a ride by morallly bankrupt spiritual leaders. I think readers of the internet are intelligent enough to figure things out for themselves. In the context of the 2x2 fellowship, it's usually the only place they have access to true / historical information about the group. Was the post a little 'too close to home' for your comfort?
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 662
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Post by peggysullivan on Mar 31, 2023 21:30:35 GMT -5
So an update about my dialogue with my dear Aunt. She called me again today to discuss the matter and to read to me the letter she received from the workers in WA state. She is most grateful to be informed. She thinks people should know the truth and secrets are not healthy. We talked about boundaries and how healthy boundaries are learned. I put forth that we don't really learn how to set healthy boundaries with others by isolating ourselves or spending all our time with just a certain type of people. Now, I know the Bible teaches to be IN the world but not OF the world. So, how on earth does one get the right balance? It is not by isolating ourselves in just hanging out with the people that only share our same faith. She agreed with me. She is also a mandated reporter by the way, so she gets it.
She was blown away that this overseer was using all that money for hotel stays alone. I told her that I think by and large most of the workers don't do that type of things. But now that that has come up, maybe it needs to get looked at better and there needs to be more accountability. No one questions the overseer, right? She said she didn't think people ever questioned the overseer. I asked her why not? She said she always thought that would be out of place and a wrong thing to do because the Bible says we are supposed to submit to those in authority over you for the gospels sake. But I told her just because you ask someone a question does not mean you are in anyway rebelling. She always said that she just has never had any reason to ask workers questions about what they do with the money. And when she has given money she has just trusted they would use it only for good to further the gospel. Well, this whole thing is bringing to light so many things, not just the sexual abuse but the financial abuse.
I asked her, have you ever thought about how many want to keep things "in the Kingdom" and not use outside help, even if that is the very thing they need? She told me, "It's very PRIDEFUL to not admit you need outside help. It's just pure pride." Well, there is this attitude of keeping everything in the Kingdom because "we're better than the world", "we're superior". This is so not Christ-like. I just pointed out to her that in the eyes of God we are all SOULS....whether it's the junkie on the street with a needle in their arm or the hooker on a street corner or a worker on the platform at convention! SHE AGREED with me whole heartedly! Things aren't always what they seem to be.
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Post by internationalstudies on Mar 31, 2023 21:33:21 GMT -5
Info that is known thus far: * Victims across 11 states * 51 people being investigated * Another Overseer has stepped down hmmmm odd timing isn't it? * They knew of 2 victims of Dean Bruer since LAST SEPTEMBER yet they did NOT come forward til now. * They know of at least 3 children he molested/raped * There are many videos from the laptop from they are of is unknown I will give case numbers when I have them. But the case numbers won't come out til people are charged then names will be made public once people are charged. The wording of Doyle's last letter is deceptive but very incriminating if you break down the sentence structure and syntax. His positive and transparent spin is complete bullsh-. If the church was actually transparent they would have came forward in September of last year when they found out. Coming forward AFTER you meet with a private detective in a Shari's for 3.5 hours theeeen coming forward is in no way being transparent. These disgusting people hid it until they couldn't hide it. Then ONLY came forward when they had no choice. I personally have spoken to someone who is high up and not involved with the investigation but found out for me. This is Federal because perpetrators and money crossed state lines and involved multiple minors and there has been an ongoing effort to hid this and cover it up by moving guilty parties instead of involving the authorities. It's been going on for decades. This is going to blow the lid off of this vile and filthy people finally. It's about time. Excuse me, But your emotive language and statements in this post raises questions in my mind as to the veracity and accuracy of statements you make? 🤷♂️ It diminishes initial confidence I had after upon reading your first post on this forum. 🤷♂️ I invite you, when in the course of time you can, to prove that every single statement you have made above is true and factual! I will then apologise, thank you and withdraw this statement . God bless you Sir.
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 662
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Post by peggysullivan on Mar 31, 2023 21:35:21 GMT -5
So an update about my dialogue with my dear Aunt. She called me again today to discuss the matter and to read to me the letter she received from the workers in WA state. She is most grateful to be informed. She thinks people should know the truth and secrets are not healthy. We talked about boundaries and how healthy boundaries are learned. I put forth that we don't really learn how to set healthy boundaries with others by isolating ourselves or spending all our time with just a certain type of people. Now, I know the Bible teaches to be IN the world but not OF the world. So, how on earth does one get the right balance? It is not by isolating ourselves in just hanging out with the people that only share our same faith. She agreed with me. She is also a mandated reporter by the way, so she gets it.
She was blown away that this overseer was using all that money for hotel stays alone. I told her that I think by and large most of the workers don't do that type of things. But now that that has come up, maybe it needs to get looked at better and there needs to be more accountability. No one questions the overseer, right? She said she didn't think people ever questioned the overseer. I asked her why not? She said she always thought that would be out of place and a wrong thing to do because the Bible says we are supposed to submit to those in authority over you for the gospels sake. But I told her just because you ask someone a question does not mean you are in anyway rebelling. She always said that she just has never had any reason to ask workers questions about what they do with the money. And when she has given money she has just trusted they would use it only for good to further the gospel. Well, this whole thing is bringing to light so many things, not just the sexual abuse but the financial abuse.
I asked her, have you ever thought about how many want to keep things "in the Kingdom" and not use outside help, even if that is the very thing they need? She told me, "It's very PRIDEFUL to not admit you need outside help. It's just pure pride." Well, there is this attitude of keeping everything in the Kingdom because "we're better than the world", "we're superior". This is so not Christ-like. I just pointed out to her that in the eyes of God we are all SOULS....whether it's the junkie on the street with a needle in their arm or the hooker on a street corner or a worker on the platform at convention! SHE AGREED with me whole heartedly! Things aren't always what they seem to be.
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 662
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Post by peggysullivan on Mar 31, 2023 21:42:08 GMT -5
Thx snow. Oh, yes, predators can be friendly, charming, polite, entertaining, easy to engage, but sneaky, all sorts of things, huh? I know, I know. Sex offenders can be extremely well behaved. It's how they develop trust. And with trust they can get close to their victims. Then, take a step further and if they also have some sort of authority, it gets worse. I really do believe that many professing girls, (and boys) are quite naive and they just don't realize how someone can be a predator who seems perfectly "nice". I think many professing parents have been naive as well. There are things I regret not doing too snow. BUT, we can help others if they ever come to us needing guidance. We are older and wiser perhaps. If we had it to do over we might do it differently, but who knows. Time and experiences change us. If Dean's phone was truly 'wiped' (that could just be speculation or a rumor that got started) there was a reason for it. You don't just wipe a phone for no reason unless there is something to be ashamed of. My understanding was simply that it was wooed to give it to another worker to use. That sounded reasonable to me. Good point verna.
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 662
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Post by peggysullivan on Mar 31, 2023 21:47:57 GMT -5
Info that is known thus far: * Victims across 11 states * 51 people being investigated * Another Overseer has stepped down hmmmm odd timing isn't it? * They knew of 2 victims of Dean Bruer since LAST SEPTEMBER yet they did NOT come forward til now. * They know of at least 3 children he molested/raped * There are many videos from the laptop from they are of is unknown I will give case numbers when I have them. But the case numbers won't come out til people are charged then names will be made public once people are charged. The wording of Doyle's last letter is deceptive but very incriminating if you break down the sentence structure and syntax. His positive and transparent spin is complete bullsh-. If the church was actually transparent they would have came forward in September of last year when they found out. Coming forward AFTER you meet with a private detective in a Shari's for 3.5 hours theeeen coming forward is in no way being transparent. These disgusting people hid it until they couldn't hide it. Then ONLY came forward when they had no choice. I personally have spoken to someone who is high up and not involved with the investigation but found out for me. This is Federal because perpetrators and money crossed state lines and involved multiple minors and there has been an ongoing effort to hid this and cover it up by moving guilty parties instead of involving the authorities. It's been going on for decades. This is going to blow the lid off of this vile and filthy people finally. It's about time. Thanks for the recap, vinny. Just for clarification: I thought you WERE that private investigator involved? Correct me if I misread that somewhere. Also, which overseer has stepped down? Thanks.
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Post by deepdeep on Mar 31, 2023 21:51:06 GMT -5
Cell phone wipe. Even back in the early '90s there were programs available that can do military level wipes of computers and such. Some of them were 100% free to download and use. Back in the AOL days. I A$$ume that there are even better ones now. So...was it "wiped" in the sense you are describing? or factory reset?
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Post by themaninthemirror on Mar 31, 2023 22:15:18 GMT -5
As usual the internet is full of mis-information and speculation. Thank you Doyle for the transparency. For those who are speaking idle words and yet like to present themselves as religious, refer to Matthew 12:36. To summarise: - Dean passed away, his computer was accessed to get the list but his laptop wasn't "inspected" at that point. - Within 3 months of his death, 2 adult women came forward to say they had either an adult / adult relationship or an adult/minor abuse in the past, but the survivors are now adult (it isn't clear). - As a result of this revelation they looked at his computer and found Dean had looked at porn but nothing minor related, again, this was immoral but not illegal. - As more survivors came forward who were all adults there was no requirement to report abuse of a deceased abuser and it is up to the survivor to make that decision. I guess someone will find a big fault with this approach, but having known two abuse survivors (neither were minors), I completely see the point about it being sensitive to their needs - particularly when the abuser is dead. We have already had Mr Landless give one of his famous extended and detailed analysis of the situation on the Facebook group. I am looking forward to his 15 point analysis of this letter. Maybe Mr Landless should refer to Matthew 12:36 when he is spending his evening writing his next facebook post Your mention of an another person's comments in another (private) forum is completely strange and inappropriate. They cannot be perused here, and people choose their own forums in which to participate, so go back to facebook where you are identifiable and respond to him there in context. Or perhaps it has gotten to hot for you. And stop idly flinging scripture about. Please don't be so condescending. The comments were made to a group of 700 people hardly a private setting. You don't seem to have any problem with people commenting on what a 2x2 or a worker says in private, but when it is a detailed analysis on baseless assumptions and speculation you don't think it should be called out? I wonder why the significant bias. The flinging of scripture is related directly to those arrogant enough to post a detailed analysis based on nothing more than speculation. I can mention it, respond to it and talk about it wherever I deem appropriate!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2023 22:25:38 GMT -5
Cell phone wipe. Even back in the early '90s there were programs available that can do military level wipes of computers and such. Some of them were 100% free to download and use. Back in the AOL days. I A$$ume that there are even better ones now. So...was it "wiped" in the sense you are describing? or factory reset? unknown, but folks should know that bit of info...
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