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Post by chuck on Mar 30, 2023 22:47:55 GMT -5
"Our purpose as Christians and as messengers sent with the gospel, is to manifest our belief by our life and behavior among all people." This is a transaction. You are guilty, I did something so you are not guilty, now you behave in a certain way for me or your still guilty.....Telling people this is not spreading the gospel and it most definitely is not the philosophy of those people in the 1st century. Well, that would be your slant, which isn't much... I wouldn't think you could be objective enough to look at it any other way than what you been told to believe.
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Post by hydropillar on Mar 30, 2023 22:50:11 GMT -5
clear as mud !!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2023 22:53:57 GMT -5
Oh ok. I’ve been reading too many letters. I’m getting confused. This is the statement that got me “One part of the armor of God is to have our feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace”. Tell me, what century are people living in that they talk like this”? Is there any interest is having people understand or is the intent to bamboozle? No problem, I should have made it obvious were I was quoting from. Verna what is interesting is peoples eagerness to speak in King James English but yet almost every other part of their life is grounded in the 21st century. What needs to happen is people need to translate the earliest copies of scripture into 21st century words, the trouble is I think that would make what is know as Christianity today irrelevant. King James translated for his purposes, and people today ignorantly follow King Jame's reason for translating it with absolutely no idea about the original people who these concepts originated from... Another thing to note is people speaking one way in Meetings Missions and Conventions and the when mixing with the general public drop their 15th century lingo are described in their own bibles as wearing a mask!....... The 40+ that helped translate were experts in several languages including Hebrew and cultures and were 400 years closer to the source than anyone you are following today.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2023 22:54:41 GMT -5
Well, that would be your slant, which isn't much... I wouldn't think you could be objective enough to look at it any other way than what you been told to believe. Said Mr. subjective...
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Post by chuck on Mar 30, 2023 23:01:54 GMT -5
No problem, I should have made it obvious were I was quoting from. Verna what is interesting is peoples eagerness to speak in King James English but yet almost every other part of their life is grounded in the 21st century. What needs to happen is people need to translate the earliest copies of scripture into 21st century words, the trouble is I think that would make what is know as Christianity today irrelevant. King James translated for his purposes, and people today ignorantly follow King Jame's reason for translating it with absolutely no idea about the original people who these concepts originated from... Another thing to note is people speaking one way in Meetings Missions and Conventions and the when mixing with the general public drop their 15th century lingo are described in their own bibles as wearing a mask!....... The 40+ that helped translate were experts in several languages including Hebrew and cultures and were 400 years closer to the source than anyone you are following today. It's clear to me why you don't understand therefore reject evolution.
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Post by chuck on Mar 30, 2023 23:04:52 GMT -5
I wouldn't think you could be objective enough to look at it any other way than what you been told to believe. Said Mr. subjective... I'll hand it to you wally, you make the most ironic statements. You tend to forget I have moved on from your ideology. It's a word you would recognise but don't yet understand it. Repent!
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Post by hydropillar on Mar 30, 2023 23:08:44 GMT -5
I am saddened by the events that have unfolded.....being a born and raised 2x2 mayby fallen away and lost my place..... in all the years of workers being in our home i never seen anything remotly close to this...however i had a strict mother momma bear that most if all would not dare to cross i asked my sisters and they never experienced anything like this...and they had the same experience as me, so im certain this kind of behavior is not the norm but it does happen...the only thing negative i have to say about the workers is sweeping stuff like this under the rug...im not worried god is in charge... why he allows this is beyond my feebile mind....i wouldnt know where to look for a better church to have a relationship with god !! Satan is at work and things wont get better until jesus returns!!
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Dean Bruer
Mar 30, 2023 23:43:22 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by chuck on Mar 30, 2023 23:43:22 GMT -5
I am saddened by the events that have unfolded.....being a born and raised 2x2 mayby fallen away and lost my place..... in all the years of workers being in our home i never seen anything remotly close to this...however i had a strict mother momma bear that most if all would not dare to cross i asked my sisters and they never experienced anything like this...and they had the same experience as me, so im certain this kind of behavior is not the norm but it does happen...the only thing negative i have to say about the workers is sweeping stuff like this under the rug...im not worried god is in charge... why he allows this is beyond my feebile mind....i wouldnt know where to look for a better church to have a relationship with god !! Satan is at work and things wont get better until jesus returns!! The enemy of good goes away when the Christ character returns everyday, there hasn't been a day go by were it hasn't happened I would imagine.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2023 23:55:02 GMT -5
The 40+ that helped translate were experts in several languages including Hebrew and cultures and were 400 years closer to the source than anyone you are following today. It's clear to me why you don't understand therefore reject evolution. What does that have to do with the price of eggs?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2023 23:57:41 GMT -5
I'll hand it to you wally, you make the most ironic statements. You tend to forget I have moved on from your ideology. It's a word you would recognise but don't yet understand it. Repent! Being subjective crosses all areas of thought, don't have to be a Hebraic Scholar or Christian to participate in that...Luke 16...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2023 23:59:18 GMT -5
I am saddened by the events that have unfolded.....being a born and raised 2x2 mayby fallen away and lost my place..... in all the years of workers being in our home i never seen anything remotly close to this...however i had a strict mother momma bear that most if all would not dare to cross i asked my sisters and they never experienced anything like this...and they had the same experience as me, so im certain this kind of behavior is not the norm but it does happen...the only thing negative i have to say about the workers is sweeping stuff like this under the rug...im not worried god is in charge... why he allows this is beyond my feebile mind....i wouldnt know where to look for a better church to have a relationship with god !! Satan is at work and things wont get better until jesus returns!! Very Correct...
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
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Post by peggysullivan on Mar 31, 2023 0:12:15 GMT -5
I am saddened by the events that have unfolded.....being a born and raised 2x2 mayby fallen away and lost my place..... in all the years of workers being in our home i never seen anything remotly close to this...however i had a strict mother momma bear that most if all would not dare to cross i asked my sisters and they never experienced anything like this...and they had the same experience as me, so im certain this kind of behavior is not the norm but it does happen...the only thing negative i have to say about the workers is sweeping stuff like this under the rug...im not worried god is in charge... why he allows this is beyond my feebile mind....i wouldnt know where to look for a better church to have a relationship with god !! Satan is at work and things wont get better until jesus returns!! The older I get the more I can appreciate how my parents, especially my dad protected me. I think everyone was afraid of him. And, they knew what the boundaries were. I think how an abusers get "access" to victims is a key factor here. Also, how the parents are in teaching kids the dangers and about healthy boundaries. Here, you have a system that reveres the workers so much and kids are indoctrinated from a very young age to do that as well and to never question a worker. Well, first of all, I don't think most of the workers want to be elevated like that. But, there are some that may. But, it does seem to happen. I think communication is highly important. The workers need to communicate better just where salvation is really from; not through the workers; solely through Christ. A lot of the problem also is the friends who basically cut themselves off from the world and are naive; and they also don't know how to handle these problems when they come up. They don't want to put a "black mark" on the fellowship, so they don't go to the authorities. That has had tragic consequences. If CSA was reported to the authorities, the authorities would do something because it's their job and they are required to. If ministers understood what it means to be a mandated reporter and reported things properly, something would get done. Mandated reporters MUST report if they suspect abuse. They do not need hard proof. They only need to have a valid suspicion and report in good faith.
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Post by chuck on Mar 31, 2023 0:18:47 GMT -5
It's clear to me why you don't understand therefore reject evolution. What does that have to do with the price of eggs? If you understood the theory of evolution you would know.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2023 0:22:47 GMT -5
What does that have to do with the price of eggs? If you understood the theory of evolution you would know. That sounds similar to "if you don't know I'm not gonna tell you" womany stuff... Adaptation is real evilution not so much...if you have a current verifiable video of a dog turning into a cat would be more than happy to look at it...Mr. subjective...
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Post by chuck on Mar 31, 2023 0:24:48 GMT -5
If you understood the theory of evolution you would know. That sounds similar to "if you don't know I'm not gonna tell you" womany stuff... Adaptation is real evilution not so much...if you have a current verifiable video of a dog turning into a cat would be more than happy to look at it...Mr. subjective... I rest my case.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2023 0:27:49 GMT -5
That sounds similar to "if you don't know I'm not gonna tell you" womany stuff... Adaptation is real evilution not so much...if you have a current verifiable video of a dog turning into a cat would be more than happy to look at it...Mr. subjective... I rest my case. That would be in your own figment of your imagination. Given the seriousness of the thread start a different one where our p!55!ng war can continue...
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Post by chuck on Mar 31, 2023 0:32:20 GMT -5
That would be in your own figment of your imagination. Given the seriousness of the thread start a different one where our p!55!ng war can continue... I couldn't be bothered, Im sure it has been explained to you before yet you still make childish statements about video evidence of a dog turning into a cat ect. This part is quite relevant because ideologically you are no different to Dean.....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2023 0:54:00 GMT -5
That would be in your own figment of your imagination. Given the seriousness of the thread start a different one where our p!55!ng war can continue... I couldn't be bothered, Im sure it has been explained to you before yet you still make childish statements about video evidence of a dog turning into a cat ect. This part is quite relevant because ideologically you are no different to Dean..... Projecting your own proclivities on to others is your delusion and problem and shows the weakness of your own "ideology".
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Post by mountain on Mar 31, 2023 2:55:14 GMT -5
It's clear to me why you don't understand therefore reject evolution. What does that have to do with the price of eggs? Well maybe you or Chuck can answer that age old question.......''what came first, the chicken or the egg?' Price was obviously a much later development!
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Post by Pragmatic on Mar 31, 2023 4:28:06 GMT -5
Not sure that I understand your point, sorry Chuck. Can you elaborate? Yep no problem. "Our purpose as Christians and as messengers sent with the gospel, is to manifest our belief by our life and behavior among all people." Would it be fair to say Lyle's belief is "Jesus died to pay for his/our sin's"? My question is how do you manifest that belief?, well we know how Lyle manifests that belief, he goes around telling people that Jesus died to pay for their sins and in return they must behave a certain way to manifest their beliefs, part of that behaviour involves practising rituals and keeping traditions. This is a transaction. Jesus did x, so we must do y in order to receive x. If you know anything about Yom Kippur you know this transaction theory was not something that Jesus would have taught or told people to spread as good news. It's the antithesis of Yom Kippur and the Jewish philosophy. The reason I say it was also not the philosophy of 1st century people is it seems the wording in the original greek could be translated "Jesus died because of our sins", and to add to that in the first 1000 years of Christianity was the payment theory core to Christianity?. The Christ character most definitely dies because of our sins, Jesus dying to pay for our sins was popularised by Anselm according to Marcus Borg. I haven't found anything yet to counter his argument. I know fundementlists at this point would just quote "The Bible" or "the bible says" but if your presupposition is incorrect quoting the bible is worthless. marcusjborg.org/posts-by-marcus/lent-and-the-cross/Jesus died because of peoples sins. The Christ character cannot be buried, it rises again. This was told in various ways by various authors in their own particular way. To me it's a pity the wrong parts have been literalised through ignorance of the relevant cultures and their methods of passing things on and also their superstition because they didn't have the luxury knowing what we have learnt in the last 2000+ years. Hope this makes it clearer??. Thanks for taking the time Chuck. I can see where you’re coming from now.
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Dean Bruer
Mar 31, 2023 10:20:46 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by verna on Mar 31, 2023 10:20:46 GMT -5
Hydropillar could I ask that you use the quote option so that we know what comment you are referring to? Thanks.
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Post by mrdobalina on Mar 31, 2023 12:51:30 GMT -5
Latest letter from Doyle S. Tap to enlarge. Attachments:
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Post by jennyfromtheblock on Mar 31, 2023 14:04:28 GMT -5
Latest letter from Doyle S. Tap to enlarge. Doyle seems really upset with the internet. LOL. I guess now he knows how it works. Thanks for sharing, the clarification is good.
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Post by themaninthemirror on Mar 31, 2023 14:09:13 GMT -5
Latest letter from Doyle S. Tap to enlarge. As usual the internet is full of mis-information and speculation. Thank you Doyle for the transparency. For those who are speaking idle words and yet like to present themselves as religious, refer to Matthew 12:36. To summarise: - Dean passed away, his computer was accessed to get the list but his laptop wasn't "inspected" at that point. - Within 3 months of his death, 2 adult women came forward to say they had either an adult / adult relationship or an adult/minor abuse in the past, but the survivors are now adult (it isn't clear). - As a result of this revelation they looked at his computer and found Dean had looked at porn but nothing minor related, again, this was immoral but not illegal. - As more survivors came forward who were all adults there was no requirement to report abuse of a deceased abuser and it is up to the survivor to make that decision. I guess someone will find a big fault with this approach, but having known two abuse survivors (neither were minors), I completely see the point about it being sensitive to their needs - particularly when the abuser is dead. We have already had Mr Landless give one of his famous extended and detailed analysis of the situation on the Facebook group. I am looking forward to his 15 point analysis of this letter. Maybe Mr Landless should refer to Matthew 12:36 when he is spending his evening writing his next facebook post
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 31, 2023 14:20:04 GMT -5
Latest letter from Doyle S. Tap to enlarge. As usual the internet is full of mis-information and speculation. Thank you Doyle for the transparency. For those who are speaking idle words and yet like to present themselves as religious, refer to Matthew 12:36. To summarise: - Dean passed away, his computer was accessed to get the list but his laptop wasn't "inspected" at that point. - Within 3 months of his death, 2 adult women came forward to say they had either an adult / adult relationship or an adult/minor abuse in the past, but the survivors are now adult (it isn't clear). - As a result of this revelation they looked at his computer and found Dean had looked at porn but nothing minor related, again, this was immoral but not illegal. - As more survivors came forward who were all adults there was no requirement to report abuse of a deceased abuser and it is up to the survivor to make that decision. I guess someone will find a big fault with this approach, but having known two abuse survivors (neither were minors), I completely see the point about it being sensitive to their needs - particularly when the abuser is dead. We have already had Mr Landless give one of his famous extended and detailed analysis of the situation on the Facebook group. I am looking forward to his 15 point analysis of this letter. Maybe Mr Landless should refer to Matthew 12:36 when he is spending his evening writing his next facebook post I don't see any point in quoting your favourite book of mythology. It is full of immorality and anyone wanting to lead a decent life would have binned it long ago. This conversation would not be occurring if Bruer and the like had kept their pants on and been leading a decent life.
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Post by internationalstudies on Mar 31, 2023 14:39:19 GMT -5
Latest letter from Doyle S. Tap to enlarge. If this latest communication from Doyle fails to assure readers of the integrity and transparency with which he is handling this awful business. Then I don't think anything would/will.🤷♂️ There has been numerous incorrect statements and baseless speculation presented by a small clique of determined posters on this forum. It appears their primary motive is 'to have crack' at the church/fellowship they have come to despise, rather than have a primary concern for victims? I'm not expecting them to retract or apologise for their incorrect statements and baseless speculation/ 'alternative facts' that they have been seeking to influence readers of this forum with over the past week. Welcome to the Wild West world of the internet! Where without some discernment and checking, you'll get taken for a ride!
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Post by themaninthemirror on Mar 31, 2023 14:39:36 GMT -5
As usual the internet is full of mis-information and speculation. Thank you Doyle for the transparency. For those who are speaking idle words and yet like to present themselves as religious, refer to Matthew 12:36. To summarise: - Dean passed away, his computer was accessed to get the list but his laptop wasn't "inspected" at that point. - Within 3 months of his death, 2 adult women came forward to say they had either an adult / adult relationship or an adult/minor abuse in the past, but the survivors are now adult (it isn't clear). - As a result of this revelation they looked at his computer and found Dean had looked at porn but nothing minor related, again, this was immoral but not illegal. - As more survivors came forward who were all adults there was no requirement to report abuse of a deceased abuser and it is up to the survivor to make that decision. I guess someone will find a big fault with this approach, but having known two abuse survivors (neither were minors), I completely see the point about it being sensitive to their needs - particularly when the abuser is dead. We have already had Mr Landless give one of his famous extended and detailed analysis of the situation on the Facebook group. I am looking forward to his 15 point analysis of this letter. Maybe Mr Landless should refer to Matthew 12:36 when he is spending his evening writing his next facebook post I don't see any point in quoting your favourite book of mythology. It is full of immorality and anyone wanting to lead a decent life would have binned it long ago. This conversation would not be occurring if Bruer and the like had kept their pants on and been leading a decent life. I quoted it for the religiously minded. I am sure your pathway to morality is some form of ever changing guideline of whatever you "feel". Who knows, maybe tomorrow you will be identifying as a three headed, triple gendered goat. Alternatively, you could avoid making assumptions based on nothing but a few words. Silly troll.
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
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Post by peggysullivan on Mar 31, 2023 15:46:50 GMT -5
I hope what the workers are deciding to do GOING FORWARD is enough to really open peoples' eyes and make needed change.
In addition to requiring mandated reporter and Ministry Safe training for workers, I believe elders and their wives should be required to receive adequate training in how recognize abuse and what steps to take if they have a valid suspicion. In fact, the Friends should be educated about the issue, not just those in authority. Why do I suggest that? Because, I know there have been cases in which an abused minor has gone to an older relative, for example, or their parents with allegations of abuse or inappropriate behaviors-rather than to a worker. Any adult needs to know what to do if a minor comes to them with their concerns. Or even if an adult comes to you with a concern about worker behavior. Because, as with many many groups it's the regular people and often the young people who know what's really going on.
If something gets reported and an agency starts investigating, it really catches peoples' attention. Studies have shown that just asking about abuse is sometimes enough to start changing behaviors.
Part of the problem, as I have been able to discern, is the workers have traditionally sort of isolated themselves from the world and from much that goes on from day to day in the Fellowship. So, the formation of healthy boundaries with others is not allowed to progress very well. Many workers were born and raised in the truth and are a few generations in. So, they were brought up mostly around friends and workers and then once they are in the work, they spend the bulk of their time around friend and workers. I understand they want to separate from the world and all, but is that a good way to test your faith and develop healthy boundaries, not to mention evangelize?
However, an interesting dichotomy has been in play for a long time: The workers are sort of indebted to the friends for food, clothing, shelter. And, the friends look up to the workers for spiritual matters. Some even think that is where their salvation comes through, although I think that mindset is changing. Also, workers and friends are very cautious about how they say things because they don't want to offend anyone. Well, that can be bad because messages that need to be very clear and direct don't come across effectively.
With sexual abuse allegations, it will be one person's word against another's. Unless you have witnesses, (not likely) or hard evidence (forensics, like from a rape kit). So, abusers do often get away with it. The victim thinks no one will believe them; they will believe the abuser. And there's no hard evidence. Many people are dumbfounded in what to do if someone comes to them with allegations of abuse. But that is what mandated reporter knowledge can teach. To REPORT abuse of a minor you do not need hard evidence. As Doyle pointed out in the letter, with an adult, reporting is optional. With a minor, it is NOT. Simply not optional. It's a crime. If one has knowledge of a crime, or is witness to a crime, but does not report it, they can get into trouble.
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