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Post by chuck on Mar 27, 2023 15:46:53 GMT -5
Is say Exodus 21 timeless?? Exodus 21:7-9 [7]And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. [8]If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. [9]And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. Well, that went right over your head, not surprised though fundamentalist Hebraic scholar... It was a fairly simple question wally.... Is Exodus 21 timeless?.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 27, 2023 18:32:29 GMT -5
And yet here you are, quite happy, and in fact defensive of their lies and shenanigans. That's what had me decieved. And if your sources are better than mine, how is it that I was a party to that information around 1984, some 30 years earlier? Ditto, although a couple of years earlier. I met TM (ex worker) in Canada, who had been shipped out of our country just one step ahead of the law. It was after meeting him at a 'union meeting" that I got told the truth by JB (worker) when I returned back to NZ. JB was not impressed by the behaviour of the overseer(s) at the time, and said he should have faced the full force of the law.
Then there was another suspect, somewhere in the middle of the North Island, who's name I can't remember, but he got shifted.
Then there was an elder with a daughter in the work, who had many rumours floating around about him. Too well connected to be potted it seemed. And another well connected elder, who did get charged and convicted, but only received the proverbial slap with a wet bus ticket.
It seemed to me, that if you were well connected, family in the work, or a rich donor, then the protection squad would be in full force. If on the other hand you were seen to "not have the spirit", because you asked for financial transparency, the riot squad would be called in.
I did not know that JB was not impressed with TM's removal. Also very disgusted was TH. I was told that he was put on a plane to Fiji only one squeak ahead of the law. The senior workers who were the enablers in this prank were WH, WP and WF. WH was the head worker. But look on the bright side. It enabled the church to continue to fly under the radar and its good name was not tarnished.
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Post by Pragmatic on Mar 27, 2023 18:43:09 GMT -5
Ditto, although a couple of years earlier. I met TM (ex worker) in Canada, who had been shipped out of our country just one step ahead of the law. It was after meeting him at a 'union meeting" that I got told the truth by JB (worker) when I returned back to NZ. JB was not impressed by the behaviour of the overseer(s) at the time, and said he should have faced the full force of the law.
Then there was another suspect, somewhere in the middle of the North Island, who's name I can't remember, but he got shifted.
Then there was an elder with a daughter in the work, who had many rumours floating around about him. Too well connected to be potted it seemed. And another well connected elder, who did get charged and convicted, but only received the proverbial slap with a wet bus ticket.
It seemed to me, that if you were well connected, family in the work, or a rich donor, then the protection squad would be in full force. If on the other hand you were seen to "not have the spirit", because you asked for financial transparency, the riot squad would be called in.
I did not know that JB was not impressed with TM's removal. Also very disgusted was TH. I was told that he was put on a plane to Fiji only one squeak ahead of the law. The senior workers who were the enablers in this prank were WH, WP and WF. WH was the head worker. But look on the bright side. It enabled the church to continue to fly under the radar and its good name was not tarnished. Yup, that's what I had confirmed to me too. To be fair, it was a different world and context back then, and these "not very bright men" probably thought they were doing the right thing.
In hindsight, did it prevent the name being tarnished? In my opinion, it only delayed it, until the Internet age.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2023 21:09:24 GMT -5
Who are you Wally? I'm new here but you seem to be fairly notorious so I'm just curious. Don't believe the hype... I'm a professing guy in West WA... Fairly blunt...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2023 21:24:13 GMT -5
Learned that in 2014 on TMB...keep up... And yet here you are, quite happy, and in fact defensive of their lies and shenanigans. That's what had me decieved. And if your sources are better than mine, how is it that I was a party to that information around 1984, some 30 years earlier? Knew Of 2 pedo's in the '70s/'80s so not all that clueless, just didn't know there was cover ups...do now that's all that matters. If you are a rational, adult and have common-sense, knee-jerk responses are rarely correct. And that you'd believe a typed internet letter is always right shows either stupidity or a naivete even worse than mine in the '80s... Don't defend lying or shenanigans, verifying truth never does that, too bad you are not aware of or capable of it...
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Dean Bruer
Mar 27, 2023 21:44:40 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 27, 2023 21:44:40 GMT -5
And yet here you are, quite happy, and in fact defensive of their lies and shenanigans. That's what had me decieved. And if your sources are better than mine, how is it that I was a party to that information around 1984, some 30 years earlier? Knew Of 2 pedo's in the '70s/'80s so not all that clueless, just didn't know there was cover ups...do now that's all that matters. If you are a rational, adult and have common-sense, knee-jerk responses are rarely correct. And that you'd believe a typed internet letter is always right shows either stupidity or a naivete even worse than mine in the '80s... Don't defend lying or shenanigans, verifying truth never does that, too bad you are not aware of or capable of it... Wally, I know you are not a typical 2x2 but if you were, then you deserve Dean Bruer.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2023 22:08:58 GMT -5
Well, that went right over your head, not surprised though fundamentalist Hebraic scholar... It was a fairly simple question wally.... Is Exodus 21 timeless?. That you only see the literal is quite revealing and either shows how far you've fallen or corrupt you are. You do also realize that even today there are folks that follow this in similar systems throughout the world right? You might be familiar with the term dowery? I'm gonna let you walk out into the quicksand on this one, casting pearls on this one won't do any good...Have fun... You think the belly of a fish was literal hell... Hebraic mindset cults will rot your brain...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2023 22:12:37 GMT -5
Knew Of 2 pedo's in the '70s/'80s so not all that clueless, just didn't know there was cover ups...do now that's all that matters. If you are a rational, adult and have common-sense, knee-jerk responses are rarely correct. And that you'd believe a typed internet letter is always right shows either stupidity or a naivete even worse than mine in the '80s... Don't defend lying or shenanigans, verifying truth never does that, too bad you are not aware of or capable of it... Wally, I know you are not a typical 2x2 but if you were, then you deserve Dean Bruer. Wishing a pedo onto anyone? More than a little revealing there curly.
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Post by chuck on Mar 28, 2023 1:03:16 GMT -5
Dean Bruer didn't rise through the ranks to Overseer in a vacuum. Where was the "Guidance of the Holy Spirit" across those decades as Senior Workers made decisions to give Dean Bauer more responsibility? Where was the "discernment" of the Workers in Power who gave Dean Bruer Power? Ever heard of Satan the Father of lies? Wally has it not registered that your idea of the Holy Spirit come from the same place as Deans.........its clear it's not a reliable ideology.......
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Post by chuck on Mar 28, 2023 1:18:27 GMT -5
It was a fairly simple question wally.... Is Exodus 21 timeless?. That you only see the literal is quite revealing and either shows how far you've fallen or corrupt you are. You do also realize that even today there are folks that follow this in similar systems throughout the world right? You might be familiar with the term dowery? I'm gonna let you walk out into the quicksand on this one, casting pearls on this one won't do any good...Have fun... You think the belly of a fish was literal hell... Hebraic mindset cults will rot your brain... So what's timeless to you in that snippet of Exodus 21?.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2023 2:52:58 GMT -5
Ever heard of Satan the Father of lies? Wally has it not registered that your idea of the Holy Spirit come from the same place as Deans.........its clear it's not a reliable ideology....... Everything comes from the bible no one or anything else....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2023 2:53:36 GMT -5
That you only see the literal is quite revealing and either shows how far you've fallen or corrupt you are. You do also realize that even today there are folks that follow this in similar systems throughout the world right? You might be familiar with the term dowery? I'm gonna let you walk out into the quicksand on this one, casting pearls on this one won't do any good...Have fun... You think the belly of a fish was literal hell... Hebraic mindset cults will rot your brain... So what's timeless to you in that snippet of Exodus 21?. Did I stutter?
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Post by chuck on Mar 28, 2023 4:14:22 GMT -5
So what's timeless to you in that snippet of Exodus 21?. Did I stutter? I guess so, you haven't told me what you think is timeless about this.... Exodus 21:7-9 [7]And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. [8]If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. [9]And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.
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Post by chuck on Mar 28, 2023 4:16:23 GMT -5
Wally has it not registered that your idea of the Holy Spirit come from the same place as Deans.........its clear it's not a reliable ideology....... Everything comes from the bible no one or anything else.... I'm sure it does in your mind, but it would depend what lense you read it through, most things you talk about are quite new relative to the age of scripture itself and the ideas they had in the periods relevant.
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Post by chuck on Mar 28, 2023 4:20:01 GMT -5
Wally has it not registered that your idea of the Holy Spirit come from the same place as Deans.........its clear it's not a reliable ideology....... Everything comes from the bible no one or anything else.... I'm sure it does in your mind, but it would depend what lense you read it through, most things you talk about are quite new relative to the age of scripture itself and the ideas they had in the periods relevant.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2023 13:08:08 GMT -5
Everything comes from the bible no one or anything else.... I'm sure it does in your mind, but it would depend what lense you read it through, most things you talk about are quite new relative to the age of scripture itself and the ideas they had in the periods relevant. Everything comes from the bible, no one else or anything else. For the standard Christian today these are not new ideas...
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Post by snow on Mar 28, 2023 13:08:58 GMT -5
I know of one 2x2 pedo in my hometown that paid his victim out $5000 to keep quiet, yet maintains his continued innocence to her family. Go figure. I remember hearing about an elder from that area who used to go to the hot pools with the young people. The girls said he had wandering hands. Surname began with Ba from memory. Was that the same chap. This would have been 1970s or 80s I think most of us 'girls' know of an elder with 'wandering hands' growing up. I remember it happening to me while swimming once. He never did it again, to me. Never even crossed my mind to tell anyone though. Back then it was all just not talked about. I guess it's not changed much in the group to this day.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Mar 28, 2023 13:09:32 GMT -5
Again a thank you to those that have messaged or emailed to me . I have so much love for all of you !
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Post by snow on Mar 28, 2023 13:13:41 GMT -5
Why nobody including my sister screamed blue murder is beyond me. I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case it happened while swimming and I was in a state of shock. I told him to never do that again and he didn't, but when he denied he meant anything by it, just a mistake, I was young enough and naive enough to question myself. Was I just making a big deal about nothing. That's how we were raised. To believe that the elder men in our group would never do what happened in the 'world'.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Mar 28, 2023 13:16:45 GMT -5
Oh my gosh, snow . Sending hugs and love ❤️ to you . I had no idea but I sensed something . I am here 4 U if required .
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Post by snow on Mar 28, 2023 13:17:48 GMT -5
This is complicated. First they do away with married workers because it was an inconvenience. But it remains a calling that is attractive to anyone who doesn't come to terms with his/her sexuality. Celibacy isn't normal. Adding power to the celibate people only increases the risk. What was the inconvenience of marriage?. Children. They had to stay in people's homes so more issues if there are children. I remember married workers that went over seas and it was the only way they could get into some countries. John and Anna Mikletas (sp?) are a couple of workers that were in Greece that I remember. I have also heard of workers that had children that handed them over to one of the friends to raise. If they didn't stay in people's homes it might be more manageable.
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Post by snow on Mar 28, 2023 13:20:39 GMT -5
Oh my gosh, snow . Sending hugs and love ❤️ to you . I had no idea but I sensed something . I am here 4 U if required . It was minimal in comparison what happened to many others. It was a one time happening because I said something and stayed away from him after that. I don't feel like I was traumatized by it but I was truly shocked at the time. Thanks 1chinesewhispers. hugs and love to you too.
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Post by snow on Mar 28, 2023 13:25:22 GMT -5
What we are witnessing is the result of celibacy..... Not necessarily, there are many celibate people who don't engage in sexual promiscuity, and there are married people who have been convicted of CSA. What we are witnessing is perversion. What I don't get is how a Worker could lure underage people to a motel room? Where were the parents? If the first victim had come forth, how many others could have been saved from such abuse?
If any preacher wants to spend some alone time with one of your kids, all kinds of warning lights should start flashing!
Obituary quote; "Dean is fondly remembered from his time in the work by those he met and encouraged....Notes from his companions and others he interacted with along the way remember him for his kind nature, the love he showed them, and being a true “brother” to all.... He was faithful in reaching out to those he knew" Wow! Me thinks there were 2 sides to that coin, he certainly pulled the wool over some trusting eyes. Its just sad, if you can't even trust an Overseer, who can you trust in this crazy world?
From what I have heard they were adults? Anyone that knows different please correct me if I'm wrong. That's one thing wrong with the system. We were raised to believe elders and workers would never do such a thing and their word would be taken over ours because they could do no wrong. I think that has changed now to some degree, but when I was a kid in the 50's and 60's that was the understanding for sure.
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Post by snow on Mar 28, 2023 13:29:37 GMT -5
Yes that's the last I heard. That they only have the laptop. But you're right. If there are names on the laptop then cell phones and computers named would be looked at too. But there is no reason why that phone can't be handed over. Surely the person that handed out the phoned that was wiped knows which worker got it and can go to them and ask them to turn it over. That will happen yet. No way are the authorities going to accept the word of a worker saying the phone was wiped and given to someone else without checking out the matter. Apparently the police can't look at the laptop without a 'victim' in Clackamas county or a warrant. I imagine they will get that so that they can look at what's on the laptop??
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Post by mountain on Mar 28, 2023 13:33:49 GMT -5
That will happen yet. No way are the authorities going to accept the word of a worker saying the phone was wiped and given to someone else without checking out the matter. Apparently the police can't look at the laptop without a 'victim' in Clackamas county or a warrant. I imagine they will get that so that they can look at what's on the laptop?? I don't think they will have too much problem justifying applying for a warrant even without a victim or complainer. The process is about fairness to an accused, civil liberties and to prevent 'speculative' searches where there may be a lack of evidence.
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Post by snow on Mar 28, 2023 13:47:35 GMT -5
I have to wonder if any of his victims tried to come forward in the past only to be dismissed or told to "forgive" and stay quiet. If no victims tried to come forward, that is, imo, just as damning of the 2x2 culture. Senior workers claiming they knew nothing is not a good look, and, imo, not especially believable. This has brought "mangochango" back to mind; I hope she is doing ok. You know, I can't imagine that someone higher up didn't know. What are the odds. Is it really possible that the number of sister workers that were victims never mentioned it to anyone else? That seems rather improbable to me. But I'm sure everything they dismissed was just for the sake of the kingdom and therefore a justifiable oversight... wrong!!
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Post by snow on Mar 28, 2023 13:50:19 GMT -5
How long has everyone known about this? IMO: The workers and their lawyers are going to claim that they just found out and were on the verge of contacting the police themselves before those bitter worldlings did. Most likely, their will be sufficient evidence that they knew for months. Doyle and maybe one or two others will plea to mandatory reporting violation and do a bunch of community service like Jerome F did. Wwaaaah...persecution!!! Pragmatically, there is no way that this remained a secret for decades. The senior workers and powerful influential friends who bankroll the operation have almost certainly known for 30 years plus. But you know, harvest is great and the laborers are few! What's a little molestation compared to the eternal torture with molten sulfur that Jesus is going to mete out? They knew just about right away after his death. One of the letters circulating said that they didn't have his list of conventions and workers attending which ones, so they went onto the laptop to get that information so they could go ahead. They admitted they found the material when they did that. Yet no turn over of laptop to officials until 9 months later? I truly hope there are some consequences for those who kept it hush hush for so long, but likely not.
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Dean Bruer
Mar 28, 2023 14:13:12 GMT -5
via mobile
Dan likes this
Post by verna on Mar 28, 2023 14:13:12 GMT -5
Not necessarily, there are many celibate people who don't engage in sexual promiscuity, and there are married people who have been convicted of CSA. What we are witnessing is perversion. What I don't get is how a Worker could lure underage people to a motel room? Where were the parents? If the first victim had come forth, how many others could have been saved from such abuse?
If any preacher wants to spend some alone time with one of your kids, all kinds of warning lights should start flashing!
Obituary quote; "Dean is fondly remembered from his time in the work by those he met and encouraged....Notes from his companions and others he interacted with along the way remember him for his kind nature, the love he showed them, and being a true “brother” to all.... He was faithful in reaching out to those he knew" Wow! Me thinks there were 2 sides to that coin, he certainly pulled the wool over some trusting eyes. Its just sad, if you can't even trust an Overseer, who can you trust in this crazy world?
From what I have heard they were adults? Anyone that knows different please correct me if I'm wrong. That's one thing wrong with the system. We were raised to believe elders and workers would never do such a thing and their word would be taken over ours because they could do no wrong. I think that has changed now to some degree, but when I was a kid in the 50's and 60's that was the understanding for sure. Snow. I’m confused. Are you saying that your understanding is that DB’s victims were all adults? If so I believe you are mistaken. One letter said this but the original letter clearly said children and adults.
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