|
|
Post by xna on Jun 17, 2022 9:01:41 GMT -5
You have a large collection of superstitions. Yes, that is what many of you atheists and unbelievers believe that is your choice. Just saying... |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2022 9:30:50 GMT -5
Yes, that is what many of you atheists and unbelievers believe that is your choice. Just saying... We've been over this before, yes it is a choice... |
|
|
|
Post by xna on Jun 17, 2022 9:37:08 GMT -5
Belief is not a choice under your willful control. We've been over this before, yes it is a choice...
Yes we have.
Test it for yourself.
Choose to believe - belief is NOT A Choice.
Did it work? Could you change your belief by making a choice.
I think not. :-)
Belief is an output, not an input. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2022 9:49:33 GMT -5
We've been over this before, yes it is a choice...
Yes we have.
Test it for yourself.
Choose to believe - belief is NOT A Choice.
Did it work? Could you change your belief by making a choice.
I think not. :-)
Belief is an output, not an input. You evaluate what you know or think you know and then make a choice then there is also going with ones gut feelings.... |
|
|
|
Post by xna on Jun 17, 2022 10:10:24 GMT -5
Yes we have.
Test it for yourself.
Choose to believe - belief is NOT A Choice.
Did it work? Could you change your belief by making a choice.
I think not. :-)
Belief is an output, not an input. You evaluate what you know or think you know and then make a choice....
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2022 10:17:08 GMT -5
You evaluate what you know or think you know and then make a choice....
The verse you quote is asking Thomas to make a choice to believe its not saying you already believe.... |
|
|
|
Post by verna on Jun 17, 2022 10:25:17 GMT -5
Oh I am aware and I was definitely hearty. But thankfully I see more clearly now. You are speaking about the head strong nature of goats and the docile nature of the sheep (incidentally your goat tendencies do not go unnoticed). It’s clearer if you just say it as it is, as we, for the most part, do not inhabit an agrarian society. Personally I adore animals and take exception to you throwing some into a lake of fire based on their unborn natures. Hey - does that sound familiar? Same old story. But here I go wasting my energy again. The guard dog guards the sheep (and the goats) from the wolf, but in the end it's the shepherd that eats them.  Very good point. |
|
|
|
Post by xna on Jun 17, 2022 10:42:09 GMT -5
You evaluate what you know or think you know, and this is forms your belief.Belief follow consideration. If you have not considered a thing, then you have not yet formed any belief. Many verses in the bible have belief out of order, others like John 20:27 have belief it in the natural order. John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.
The verse you quote is asking Thomas to make a choice to believe its not saying you already believe....
A belief not based on evidence is a credulous belief, or a superstition. People who believe things easily without having to be convinced are credulous.
A bible example of this is Hebrews: 11-1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
This is bad advice to form a world view. Belief without evidence makes you credulous and you can't separate reality from superstitions. It makes you subject to things like conspiracy theories, because you do not exercised critical thinking skills.
Having group of credulous and superstitious people is however useful for religion and used car salesmen.
What was the purpose of all the miracles in the NT, if but for first to provide evidence so that they would afterwards believe?
|
|
|
|
Post by nathan02 on Jun 17, 2022 11:26:15 GMT -5
The verse you quote is asking Thomas to make a choice to believe its not saying you already believe....
A belief not based on evidence is a credulous belief, or a superstition. People who believe things easily without having to be convinced are credulous.
A bible example of this is Hebrews: 11-1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
This is bad advice to form a world view. Belief without evidence makes you credulous and you can't separate reality from superstitions. It makes you subject to things like conspiracy theories, because you do not exercised critical thinking skills.
Having group of credulous and superstitious people is however useful for religion and used car salesmen.
What was the purpose of all the miracles in the NT, if not to first provide evidence, so that they would afterwards believe?
** Like I told those of us believers have seen and known the evidences, proof the existence of God for ourselves. You ex-2×2 atheists had known and experience of the Holy Spirit yourself for years but now you have become doubters and unbelievers. Sorry to see Satan has clouded and blinded your spiritual understanding. |
|
|
|
Post by verna on Jun 17, 2022 11:49:40 GMT -5
Belief here came after the examination of evidence. What formed the belief was the evidence. It was not an appeal to believe without evidence.
A belief not based on evidence is a credulous belief, or a superstition. People who believe things easily without having to be convinced are credulous.
A bible example of this is Hebrews: 11-1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
This is bad advice to form a world view. Belief without evidence makes you credulous and you can't separate reality from superstitions. It makes you subject to things like conspiracy theories, because you do not exercised critical thinking skills.
Having group of credulous and superstitious people is however useful for religion and used car salesmen.
What was the purpose of all the miracles in the NT, if not to first provide evidence, so that they would afterwards believe?
** Like I told those of us believers have seen and known the evidences, proof the existence of God for ourselves. You ex-2×2 atheists had known and experience of the Holy Spirit yourself for years but now you have become doubters and unbelievers. Sorry to see Satan has clouded and blinded your spiritual understanding. Nathan what you don’t seem to grasp is that your way did not work for us!!!! The evidence was not there!!! And this is very sad because we (or I more specifically) gave our all and loved it so dearly! This is a heartfelt message. I do not wish to crush your soul and I really wish you would not crush mine. To this day my heart is broken but it was empty for me. |
|
|
|
Post by xna on Jun 17, 2022 11:50:25 GMT -5
** Like I told those of us believers have seen and known the evidences, proof the existence of God for ourselves.
There is a famous saying about this... ”In God we trust. All others must bring data.” - Edward Deming
You ex-2×2 atheists had known and experience of the Holy Spirit yourself for years but now you have become doubters and unbelievers.
There is a famous saying about this..."give us a child till he’s 7 and we’ll have him for life." - St Ignatius
Sorry to see Satan has clouded and blinded your spiritual understanding.
You only imagine Satan. The idea of satan comes only from mythologies.
As they say there is no "there - there". If there was something there, then you could go check and answer the question about the Trinity.
Since no one knows the answer to the imaginary question, then opinions are all you have to argue about.
Good and Evil are real. They arise from the acts of men, not demons.
Reducing evil acts and reducing the suffering of others is a more noble use of time and treasure than arguing about the Trinity.
JMT |
|
|
|
Post by nathan02 on Jun 17, 2022 12:48:39 GMT -5
** Like I told those of us believers have seen and known the evidences, proof the existence of God for ourselves.
There is a famous saying about this... ”In God we trust. All others must bring data.” - Edward Deming
You ex-2×2 atheists had known and experience of the Holy Spirit yourself for years but now you have become doubters and unbelievers.
There is a famous saying about this..."give us a child till he’s 7 and we’ll have him for life." - St Ignatius
Sorry to see Satan has clouded and blinded your spiritual understanding.
You only imagine Satan. The idea of satan comes only from mythologies.
As they say there is no "there - there". If there was something there, then you could go check and answer the question about the Trinity.
Since no one knows the answer to the imaginary question, then opinions are all you have to argue about.
Good and Evil are real. They arise from the acts of men, not demons.
Reducing evil acts and reducing the suffering of others is a more noble use of time and treasure than arguing about the Trinity.
JMT** Well, good luck to you with your belief and understanding. To understand the Godhead/Trinity help the believers to KNOW the Godhead= Father the Father the Most High God, Christ our God Savior/Redeemer who died for our sins, and the Holy Sspirit our teacher/ Comforter whom we serve and worship. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2022 12:53:29 GMT -5
The verse you quote is asking Thomas to make a choice to believe its not saying you already believe....
A belief not based on evidence is a credulous belief, or a superstition. People who believe things easily without having to be convinced are credulous.
A bible example of this is Hebrews: 11-1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
This is bad advice to form a world view. Belief without evidence makes you credulous and you can't separate reality from superstitions. It makes you subject to things like conspiracy theories, because you do not exercised critical thinking skills.
Having group of credulous and superstitious people is however useful for religion and used car salesmen.
What was the purpose of all the miracles in the NT, if but for first to provide evidence so that they would afterwards believe?
That doesn't change that belief is a choice whether there is evidence for it or not. Belief is not defined by evidence. People can look right at the sun and believe it revolves around the earth others look and believe the earth revolves around the sun. |
|
|
|
Post by xna on Jun 17, 2022 12:59:08 GMT -5
** Well, good luck to you with your belief and understanding. To understand the Godhead/Trinity help the believers to KNOW the Godhead= Father the Father the Most High God, Christ our God Savior/Redeemer who died for our sins, and the Holy Sspirit our teacher/ Comforter whom we serve and worship.
The Trinity question has been argued about continually for the last 1,700 years
Trinity concept was finalized at the First Council of Nicaea in 325 CE after years of debate. |
|
|
|
Post by nathan02 on Jun 17, 2022 13:19:09 GMT -5
** Well, good luck to you with your belief and understanding. To understand the Godhead/Trinity help the believers to KNOW the Godhead= Father the Father the Most High God, Christ our God Savior/Redeemer who died for our sins, and the Holy Sspirit our teacher/ Comforter whom we serve and worship.
The Trinity question has been argued about continually for the last 1,700 years
Trinity concept was finalized at the First Council of Nicaea in 325 CE after years of debate. ** Many Christian do not have the same level understanding on the Trinity; Triune God and the God head. Most believe Jesus is the Son of God that is good enough for them so be it. To understand the Trinity, Triune God, the Godhead and Jesus is Christ God the Son is a progress revelation. |
|
|
|
Post by xna on Jun 17, 2022 13:25:14 GMT -5
That doesn't change that belief is a choice whether there is evidence for it or not. Belief is not defined by evidence. People can look right at the sun and believe it revolves around the earth others look and believe the earth revolves around the sun.
If one has a belief that the sun revolves around the earth and another has a belief that the earth revolves around the sun, they both can't be true at the same time. The one who can show good evidence is the one you should believe, that is if your aim is to know what is most true. For example there is no good reason to believe Joshua 10:13, so for that reason I don't believe it.Joshua 10:13 So the sun stood still and the moon stopped until the nation took vengeance upon its enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? “So the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.”
Some do believe a thing is true for bad reasons. (misinformed, bad information, false assumptions, jump to conclusions, mislead, confused, deceived, etc)Some people believe a thing is true for no reasons. (willful ignorance, disinterest, never examined) |
|
|
|
Post by nathan02 on Jun 17, 2022 13:55:22 GMT -5
That doesn't change that belief is a choice whether there is evidence for it or not. Belief is not defined by evidence. People can look right at the sun and believe it revolves around the earth others look and believe the earth revolves around the sun.
If one has a belief that the sun revolves around the earth and another has a belief that the earth revolves around the sun, they both can't be true at the same time. The one who can show good evidence is the one you should believe, that is if your aim is to know what is most true. For example there is no good reason to believe Joshua 10:13, so for that reason I don't believe it.Joshua 10:13 So the sun stood still and the moon stopped until the nation took vengeance upon its enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? “So the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.”
Some do believe a thing is true for bad reasons. (misinformed, bad information, false assumptions, jump to conclusions, mislead, confused, deceived, etc)Some people believe a thing is true for no reasons. (willful ignorance, disinterest, never examined)** The Sun stood still happened with God nothing is impossible.... With God all things are possible. God commanded the Sun to stand still so the Israelites have enough light to kill their enemies. just like Jesus/God commanded and control the storm and wind to cease. Even the dieases/sickness to disappear; walking on water. Command the fish to obey his words to gather certain spot for the disciples to catch with their nets. Feeding 3000 and 5000 people with a few loaves of bread and fish and they had baskets left over. Nothing is too difficult for God the Father and Christ/God to perform or do. |
|
|
|
Post by intelchips on Jun 17, 2022 14:09:00 GMT -5
True, not all beliefs are defined by evidence, but I argue one's beliefs should be base on good reasons. Our aim should be that all of our beliefs should be the ones that are most true, that way what we believe fits reality. A belief based on good reasons is backed up by evidence. A good reason fits with objective reality. A good reason can be show to be demonstratively true.
If one has a belief that the sun revolves around the earth and another has a belief that the earth revolves around the sun, they both can't be true at the same time. The one who can show good evidence is the one you should believe, that is if your aim is to know what is most true. For example there is no good reason to believe Joshua 10:13, so for that reason I don't believe it.Joshua 10:13 So the sun stood still and the moon stopped until the nation took vengeance upon its enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? “So the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.”
Some do believe a thing is true for bad reasons. (misinformed, bad information, false assumptions, jump to conclusions, mislead, confused, deceived, etc)Some people believe a thing is true for no reasons. (willful ignorance, disinterest, never examined) ** The Sun stood still happened with God nothing is impossible.... With God all things are possible. God commanded the Sun to stand still so the Israelites have enough light to kill their enemies. just like Jesus/God commanded and control the storm and wind to cease. Even the dieases/sickness to disappear; walking on water. Command the fish to obey his words to gather certain spot for the disciples to catch with their nets. Feeding 3000 and 5000 people with a few loaves of bread and fish and they had baskets left over. Nothing is too difficult for God the Father and Christ/God to perform or do. Long ago it was believed that the world was a huge egg that was balanced on a turtles neck. Now, you may say how ridiculous that is. But back then it was a ‘fact’ for the general public till Aristotle made a breakthrough in science by terming all of that as false. |
|
|
|
Post by nathan02 on Jun 17, 2022 14:26:21 GMT -5
** The Sun stood still happened with God nothing is impossible.... With God all things are possible. God commanded the Sun to stand still so the Israelites have enough light to kill their enemies. just like Jesus/God commanded and control the storm and wind to cease. Even the dieases/sickness to disappear; walking on water. Command the fish to obey his words to gather certain spot for the disciples to catch with their nets. Feeding 3000 and 5000 people with a few loaves of bread and fish and they had baskets left over. Nothing is too difficult for God the Father and Christ/God to perform or do. Long ago it was believed that the world was a huge egg that was balanced on a turtles neck. Now, you may say how ridiculous that is. But back then it was a ‘fact’ for the general public till Aristotle made a breakthrough in science by terming all of that as false. ** So, what is your point to my post? |
|
|
|
Post by intelchips on Jun 17, 2022 15:19:49 GMT -5
Long ago it was believed that the world was a huge egg that was balanced on a turtles neck. Now, you may say how ridiculous that is. But back then it was a ‘fact’ for the general public till Aristotle made a breakthrough in science by terming all of that as false. ** So, what is your point to my post? That in this day in age it is ridiculous |
|
|
|
Post by nathan02 on Jun 17, 2022 15:29:57 GMT -5
** So, what is your point to my post? That in this day in age it is ridiculous *** Yes, according to humans reasonings! It's very ridiculous. We are just like the little ants, which try to figure out how did God part the Red Sea so over 1 millions Israelites walked on dry sea bed to cross to the other side. |
|
|
|
Post by intelchips on Jun 17, 2022 15:32:16 GMT -5
That in this day in age it is ridiculous *** Yes, according to humans reasonings! It's very ridiculous. We are just like the little ants, which try to figure out how did God part the Red Sea so over 1 millions Israelites walked on dry sea bed to cross to the other side. Has no one ever suggested that if over a million people crossed into a land they would leave some evidence for thousands of years later to be found? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2022 15:39:31 GMT -5
*** Yes, according to humans reasonings! It's very ridiculous. We are just like the little ants, which try to figure out how did God part the Red Sea so over 1 millions Israelites walked on dry sea bed to cross to the other side. Has no one ever suggested that if over a million people crossed into a land they would leave some evidence for thousands of years later to be found? Some evidence was found but taken and put away or restricted access by both Saudi Arabia and Egypt. |
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 17, 2022 15:39:56 GMT -5
Has anyone ever suggested that there would be fossil traces of animals such as polar bears, wolverines, kangaroos and kea as they made their way to and from the "ark"?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2022 15:44:35 GMT -5
Has anyone ever suggested that there would be fossil traces of animals such as polar bears, wolverines, kangaroos and kea as they made their way to and from the "ark"? Who said they had to die along the way or going back? I calculated this before and the kangaroo's would have taken roughly 2.5 years one way to get there and they live for 9+ years on average more than enough time to make the journey... |
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 17, 2022 15:51:09 GMT -5
Has anyone suggested that if the sun and the moon had really stood still then we would not be having this forum?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2022 15:54:36 GMT -5
Has anyone suggested that if the sun and the moon had really stood still then we would not be having this forum? If God can create a universe he can certainly stop the earth from rotating and make everything work out. |
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Jun 17, 2022 16:03:52 GMT -5
Belief is not a choice under your willful control. We've been over this before, yes it is a choice... Can you make yourself believe something when evidence points otherwise? Ignore cognitive dissonance? Ignore facts, weigh up the cost, is belief a choice, or result of life experiences, information, family upbringing and any number of things? How much crime is a choice and how much has it become integrated into one's being due to childhood experiences and programming. Some is choice, some is not by choice. Our circumstances can affect choice. Just brain storming. There is no black and white answer. I think both are true. I would think for the spiritual, the supernatural, enlightenment / revelation is not a choice. |
|
