Excellent, it would be good for Nathan to read.
Here is the Vaudois/Waldenses historians by their own people NOT from the RCC point of views.
Was Peter Waldo, a Frenchman in 1170 A.D. the Vaudois/ Waldenses Founder? The answer is "NO".Peter Allix: Some remarks upon the Eccesiastic History of the Ancient Church of Piedmont pp. 176-182.
The Waldenses had stiffly opposed the abuses of the Roman Church, and they held their doctrine from father to son, ever SINCE the year A.D. 120, as they had heard and received it from their elders and ancestors.
These believers of the valleys could "NOT" be so called from Peter Waldo of Lyons, France because he did "NOT" flourish at the soonest till the year 1170, according to Roger Hovenden, whereas the people of the valleys of Lucerne and Angrogne had the name of Wallenses from the beginning of the 12th century.
I have already made it appear, that they separated themselves from the Church in Rome long before, and that the name Wallenses or Vaudois, was given to them from the place of their abode, which the habitants called les Vaux de Lucerne et Angrogne, that is to say, the Valley of Lucerne Angrogne, from which came the Latin name Valenses,
which was afterwards changed to Valdenses, when the design was laid to make men believe Peter (Waldo) Valdo was their founder.
It has often been said that a man
Peter Waldo, who lived in Lyons, France about the year 1170, was really the founder of this "sect that was everywhere spoken against."
But, history proves that such could "NOT" be the case, as tradition of the Vaudois existence from the days of the apostles can be traced back, they are not only spoken of as having been known for a long while back, but as being numerous all over Western Europe.
For instance, in 1150 the Vaudoios were heard in Cologne, 1177 at Frankfurt, Nuremberg, and other Germans towns; large meetings were held by them at Metz in 1180; in Spain they were persecuted, in 1192 by Alfonso or Aragon, who mentions in his edict against them that he follows the example of his forefathers in forbidding their preaching. In 1170 they were forbidden to preach at Lyons, France by the Pope Lucius III, who edict against them. They abounded at this time in Piedmont, and in Dauphine; all over the Southern of France, at Naples in Sicily, and Southern Italy---in the Netherlands, Flanders, and Brabant --- in Northern France and in England.
Who was Peter Waldo?
In 1160 A.D. Peter Waldo of Lyons, France, a successful merchant and banker, was aroused to see his need of salvation by the sudden death of one of the guests at a feast he had given.
A Vaudois theologian directed Peter Waldo to the Lord's words in (Matthew 19:21) "If thou be Perfect, go and "sell" that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shall have treasure in Heaven, and come and follow me." Peter Waldo, therefore, made over his lands, property to his wife, SOLD the remainder, and distributed it among the poor.
They Believe in Apostolic succession through the laying on of the hand of such had it on those really called to receive this grace. They taught that the Church of Rome had lost this when Pope Sylvester accepted the union of Church and State, but it remained among them.
Antiquity of Waldenses:
Raynonard, a notable linguist who examined certain Waldensian writings, was convinced of their antiquity. For instance, with regard to the "Noble Lesson," he wrote that "the date of the year 1100 A.D., which we read in the poem, deserves entire confidence." This is three-quarters of a century earlier that the Ministry article's date for the Waldensians.
18) It appears, however, that he was not entirely convinced, since six years later, in 1886, his booklet Who are the Waldenses? compared the influence of the Waldenses with the river Nile that owes its origin to a source still clouded in darkness. He noted that some writers trace the origin of the Waldensian church to the first persecutions of the Christians by the Romans, others to the time of Vigilantius or of Claudius, bishop of Turin, while still others see the Waldensian church first appearing in the twelfth century. And then he stated plainly that the only thing that can be clearly proved is that the origin of the Waldenses is very closely related to the study of the Scriptures.
19) In 1922 the Waldensian school was transferred from Florence to Rome with Emilio's son Ernesto Comba as professor of the theological faculty. Ernesto also wrote a book about the history of the Waldenses: Storia dei Valdesi, published in the Waldensian town of Torre Pellice in 1923. A Dutch copy was published in 1927. In the first chapter we are assured that at least as early as the fourth century there were flourishing churches in the Piedmont valleys. The chapter also indicated that we can accept Monastier's conviction that the Waldensian church is the connecting link between the ancient Christian churches and the later evangelical churches.
25) Allix also held "that Peter Waldo was not the founder of the churches of the valleys, which were in being long before him." He pointed out clearly and decidedly, "Wherefore, that I may once for all clear this matter, I say, first, that it is absolutely false, that these churches were ever founded by Peter Waldo."
28) Another source remarks: "Peter Waldus or Waldo, who was but a follower of the Waldenses, first became known after the persecution of Lyon, France in the year 1181," while "shortly afterwards the history of the Waldenses is confined mainly to the valleys of Piedmont in Switzerland." Waldo and his followers were at first also called "Leonists" (from "Lyon, France") and when persecuted they "fled into Piedmont, incorporating themselves with the Vaudois."
Hi, Enuf and Fixit
12/2/2020
Can both of you answer these questions for me. You and Fixit on here believe Peter Waldo was the Founder of the Waldense in 1170.
How could Peter Waldo be the founder of the Vaudois/Waldenses when they had two confession of Faith articles written in 1120 and 1150 before he was born and written in 1150 at the age of 10.
Peter Waldo, Valdo, Valdes, or Waldes, also Pierre Vaudès or de Vaux, was a leader of the Waldensians, a Christian spiritual movement of the Middle Ages. Wikipedia
Born: 1140, Lyon, France
Died: 1218
Nationality: French
Peter Waldo was born in Lyon, France 1140. So, did he traveled back in time 1120 and he wrote the confession of Faith article in 1120 and wrote the second Confession of Faith in 1150 when he was 10 years old then he became the founder of the Waldenses in 1170. Does this make sense to you, Enuf?
A History of the Christian Church by William Jones first edition 1812 Chapter 5--section 3.
A view of doctrinal sentiments and religious practices of the Waldenses, collected from their own writings. Their historian, John Paul Perrin, in his "Histoitre des Vaudois," published at Geneva in 1619, has furnished us with two of their "Confessions of Faith," of which the following are faithful translations. Sir Samuel Morland has fixed the date of the first of them in the Year 1120 A.D. [Morland's History of the Churches of Peidmont, Page. 30]
The Confession of Faith of the Waldenses (A.D.1120)1. We believe and firmly maintain all that is contained in the twelve articles of the symbol, commonly called the Apostles' Creed, and we regard as heretical whatever is inconsistent with the said twelve articles.
2. We believe that there is One Godhead, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
3. We acknowledge for sacred canonical scriptures the books of the Holy Bible.
4. The books above mentioned teach us---that that there is ONE GOD, almighty, unbounded in the wisdom, in infinite in goodness, and who, in his goodness, has made all things. For he created Adam after his own image and likeness. But through the enmity of the devil, and his own disobedience, Adam fell, sin entered into the world, and we became transgressors in and by Adam.
6. That at the time appointed of the Father, Christ was born a time when iniquity everywhere abounded, to make it manifest that it was not for the sake of any good in ourselves, for all were sinners, but that He, who is true, might display his grace and mercy toward us.
7. That Christ is our life, and truth, and peace, and righteousness---our shepherd and advocate, our sacrifice and priest, who died for the salvation of all who should believe, and rose again for justification.
8. And we also firmly believe, that there in NO other mediator, or advocate with God the Father, but Jesus Christ. And as to the Virgin Mary, she was holy, humble, and full of grace; and this we also believe concerning all others Saints, namely, that they are waiting in heaven for the resurrection of their bodies at the Day of Judgment.
9. We also believe, that after this life, there are but two places---One for those who are Saved, and other for the Damned, which [two] we call paradise and hell, wholly denying Purgatory of Antichrist, invented in opposition to the truth.
10. Moreover, we have ever regarded all the inventions of men (in the affairs of religion) as an unspeakable abomination before God; such as the festivals days, and vigils of Saints, and what is called holy-water, the abstaining from flesh on certain days, and such like things, but above all, the Masses.
11. We hold in abhorrence all human inventions, as proceeding from Antichrist, which produce distress [alluding probably to the voluntary penances and mortification imposed by the Catholics on themselves] and are prejudicial to the liberty of the mind.
12. We consider the Sacraments as signs of holy things, or as the visible emblems of invisible blessings. We regard it as proper and even necessary that believers use these symbols or visible forms when it can be done. Notwithstanding which, we maintain that believers may be saved without these signs, when they have neither place nor opportunity of observing them.
13. We acknowledge No sacraments (as of divine appointment) but Baptism and the Lord's supper.
14. We honor the secular powers, with subjection, obedience, promptitude, and payment. [Perrin's Hist. des Vaudois. Ch.12] Masses are impious; and it is madness to say masses for the dead. Purgatory is the invention of men, for they who believe go into eternal life, they who believe not, into eternal damnation. The invoking and worshiping of dead saints is idolatry.
The Church of Rome is the lady of Babylon. The pope has not the primacy over ALL the churches of Christ; neither hath he the power of both swords. That is the church of Christ, which hears the pure doctrine of Christ, and observes the ordinances instituted by him, in whatsoever place it exists.
Another Waldensians confession of Faith (A.D.1150)
1. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son and the image of the Father---that in Him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells, and that by him alone we know the Father. He is our Mediator and advocate; nor is there any other name given under heaven by which we can be saved. In His name alone we call upon the Father, using no other prayers than those contained in the Holy Scriptures, or such as are in substance agreeable thereunto.
2. We believe in the Holy Spirit as the Comforter, proceeding from the Father, and from the Son; by whose inspiration we are taught to pray; being by Him renewed in the spirit of our minds; who creates us anew unto good works, and from whom we receive the knowledge of the TRUTH.
3. We believe that there is ONE holy church, comprising the whole assembly of the elect and faithful, that have EXISTED from the beginning of the world, or that shall be to the end thereof. Of this church the Lord is the Head! It is governed by his word and guided by the Holy Spirit. In the church it behooves all Christians to have fellowship.
For her He [Christ] prays incessantly, and his prayer for it is most acceptable to God, without which indeed there could be NO salvation.
4. We hold that the ministers of the church ought to be Unblameable both in Life and Doctrine; and if found otherwise, that they ought to be deposed from their office, and others substituted in their stead; and that no person ought to presume to take that honor unto himself but he who is called of God as Aaron---that the duties of such are to feed the flock of God, not for filthy lucre's sake, or as having dominion over God's heritage, but as being examples to the flock, in word, in conversation, in charity, in faith, and in chastity.
5. We acknowledge, that kings, princes, and governors, are the appointed and established ministers of God, whom we are bound to obey [in all lawful and civil concerns]. For they bear the sword for the defense of the innocent, and the punishment of evildoers, for which reason we are bound to honor and pay them tribute. From this power and authority, no man can exempt himself, as is manifest from the example of the Lord Jesus Christ, who voluntarily paid tribute, not taking upon himself any jurisdiction of temporal power.
6. We believe that in the ordinance of baptism the water is the visible and external sign, which represents to us that which, by virtue of God's invisible operations, is within us---namely, the renovation of our minds, and the mortification of our members through [the faith of] Jesus Christ. And by this ordinance we are received into the holy congregation of God's people, previously professing and declaring our faith and change of life.
7. We hold that the Lord's supper is a commemoration of, and thanksgiving for, the benefits which we have received by his sufferings and death---and that it is to be received in faith and love---examining ourselves, that so we may eat of that bread and drink of that cup, as it is written in the Holy Scriptures.
Waldensians Apology (1508)
In the year 1508, about ten years before Luther began the Reformation, and during the reign of Ladislaus, king of Hungary and Bohemia, a dreadful persecution broke out against that class of his subjects, who held the principles of the Waldenses. The latter, to justify themselves from several charges erroneously imputed to them by their adversaries, drew up an apology addressed to the king, which was still extant in the time Perrin their historian.
1. It was said of them, by their Adversaries, that a man might leave his wife when he pleased. On which they reply, that "matrimony is a bond which nothing but death can dissolve, EXCEPT the crime of fornication, as saith the Lord Jesus Christ" and also the apostle Paul wrote, "Let NOT the wife depart from her husband, nor the husband put away his wife."
2. A second Calumny regards a community of goods and wives--to which they reply, "that marriage was of old ordained by God in Paradise; that it was designed as an antidote against Adultery, and it is recorded by the apostle, when speaking this subject," Let every man have his own wife, and every woman her own husband." Also that "the husband must ought to love his wife as Christ loveth the church," and that such as are married ought to live holily together with their children in the fear of God. That as for goods, every one has possessed his own at all times in all places--they NEVER having had any such inter-community among them, as tended in the smallest degree to derogate from that lawful propriety which every one has by right to his own estate.
3. Another scandalous charge was, that they Worshiped their Barbs or Pastors. The grossness of this calumny, indeed, sufficiently refuted itself. At one time they represented as setting aside the necessity of the pastoral office altogether, and making its peculiar duties common to every member--at others they are charged with holding their pastors in such estimation, they paid Divine honors.
The Waldenses refer, on this subject, to their own writings, in which they have shown that God alone is the Object of worship, and that they NEVER intended to give to any creature. And that to their pastors, regarding them as those by whom they have heard the word of reconciliation, they consider themselves as bound to conscience and duty to treat them with Kindness, and to Esteem them in Love for their work's sake.
5. Another charge against them is, that they compelled their Pastors to follow some trade. Their answer to this is surely a very satisfactory one.
" We do not think it necessary, say they, that our Pastors should work for bread. They might be better qualified to instruct us if we could maintain them without their own labor; but our poverty has no remedy. [Perrin's Hist. des Vaudois b. ch. 4 and User de Christ. Eccle. succ.et statu. 1243]
The Catholic writers frequently reproach them with making little or no account of the Pastoral office--affirming that they made the duty of preaching the gospel common to every member of the church both MALE and FEMALE. Commenius, who published a Synopsis of the disciples of the Church of Bohemia, shows that "a stated Ministry was always considered as matter of great importance among the Waldensians Churches."
Waldenses Had Women Preachers!!
The Waldenses still went further in shocking old-time customs and claimed the RIGHT to Preach for "WOMEN" as well as for MEN. The Waldenses Preachers/Pastors or Barbes, were first condemned by the Pope because they were private people and laymen, NOT learned clergy. Women Preachers were NOT uncommon and they played a considerable role in Piedmont as the 14th century.
Waldensians' activity was NOT limited to the Alps-maritime region. John Bale in his catalogue mentioned some Waldensians who had begun to teach in England in (1164). Then in the summer of (1199), the bishop of Metz informed Rome that Waldensians were holding secret meetings in his diocese in which MEN and WOMEN Preached, using a French translation of the Bible.
The Vaudois, therefore, are not schematics, but continued inheritors of the Church founded by the Apostles. Very few of them were married (in the ministry); and their perpetual missions, their poverty, their missionary tours, their life always spent amidst warfare and dangers, make it easy to understand the reason of their Celibacy.
Pope Innocent III declared that secret home assemblies, unlicensed preaching, and disobedience to the command of bishops were NOT to be tolerated. By 1270, the Waldensian Preachers were gathering out disciples in various German states, Austria, Bohemia, Moravia, Hungary, and Poland. The danger for the Catholic Church was that the Bible text conveyed to the general population, by
Waldeneses preachers Untrained in theology, appeared to contradict MANY of the doctrines and practices of the Catholic Church, whose clergy was NOT always highly respected.
good time for retirement, eh.
