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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2022 21:58:23 GMT -5
*endeavoring Nope, only talking to you and lowering the bar to do so.... * endeavouring on this side of the globe but won't hold it against you using endeavoring. You were engaging in conversation with Bob when you used the bootcamp slang , not with me. But it appears you forget. I stand corrected.... |
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 18, 2022 23:41:15 GMT -5
If you're endeavouring to engage in intelligent conversation with Bob, I suggest you think beyond using some unknown 1980's boot camp slang to make a point. *endeavoring Nope, only talking to you and lowering the bar to do so.... way .......DOWN .................. LOW |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 18, 2022 23:43:56 GMT -5
*endeavoring Nope, only talking to you and lowering the bar to do so.... way .......DOWN .................. LOWFortunately Wally by no means represents the people of the church he goes to. |
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Post by intelchips on Jun 22, 2022 12:12:36 GMT -5
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Post by mountain on Jun 22, 2022 16:49:22 GMT -5
By that logic, anyone that built a wheelbarrow could still push it if he removed the wheel, so long as he was the one that built it. Poor analogy.. I disagree. It's a lot worse than poor! |
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Post by intelchips on Jul 22, 2022 18:04:24 GMT -5
From wiki we find "In terms of number of adherents, nontrinitarian denominations comprise a small minority of modern Christians. The largest nontrinitarian Christian denominations are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Oneness Pentecostals, Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, La Luz del Mundo, and the Iglesia ni Cristo. There are a number of other smaller groups, including Christadelphians, Church of the Blessed Hope, Christian Scientists, Dawn Bible Students, Living Church of God, Assemblies of Yahweh, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Christians, Unitarian Universalist Christians, The Way International, The Church of God International, the United Church of God, Church of God General Conference, Restored Church of God, and Church of God of the Faith of Abraham." Wonder why the 2x2 failed to make it?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Aug 15, 2022 1:28:39 GMT -5
It's interesting that Irvine's church took several years before they started holding Sunday morning meetings in a home.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 12, 2022 14:43:41 GMT -5
This topic keeps coming up so I could not resist a crack at the question.
The answer, of course, is around 70 AD, when the gospel of Mark was written.
At that time the apostles were spreading the Gospel, 2x2, and with no hint of Trinitarianism for another 300 years.
Some argue that 1 John 5:7-8 is an indication of the Trinity, but these verses were not inserted into the Bible until 400 AD, at the very earliest. The verses do not appear in the oldest manuscripts.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 12, 2022 14:45:49 GMT -5
It's interesting that Irvine's church took several years before they started holding Sunday morning meetings in a home. Because they grew out of Faith Mission meetings which were held mainly for members of various denominations and never held in competition with established Sunday church services. However, some attendees of Faith Mission meetings preferred mission meetings over their Sunday congregations and voila, new denomination. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2022 19:47:11 GMT -5
Because they grew out of Faith Mission meetings which were held mainly for members of various denominations and never held in competition with established Sunday church services. However, some attendees of Faith Mission meetings preferred mission meetings over their Sunday congregations and voila, new denomination. Hi What Hat, I notice a certain poster trots out your name in an attempt to verify a theory that the friends church continued in an unbroken chain from the shores of Galilee. Including reference to Waldensians etc I would like to hear from you. To read your thoughts today. Our understanding can evolve and I'm interested in knowing, do you still perceive it that way today. ( Hope I've got the right person.) Cheers. Whathat did not post saying that, his post showed it hopping through time from denomination to denomination...its not unbroken. |
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Post by nathan on Oct 13, 2022 9:09:02 GMT -5
This topic keeps coming up so I could not resist a crack at the question. The answer, of course, is around 70 AD, when the gospel of Mark was written. At that time the apostles were spreading the Gospel, 2x2, and with no hint of Trinitarianism for another 300 years. Some argue that 1 John 5:7-8 is an indication of the Trinity, but these verses were not inserted into the Bible until 400 AD, at the very earliest. The verses do not appear in the oldest manuscripts. T hanks, Whathat...
The concept or the theme of Trinity/Triune God has been taught from Genesis to Revelation.
John the apostle just confirmed about the concept and teaching of the Triune God= God Father, the Lord God Christ our Savior, and the Holy Spirit our Teacher, Comforter, and Guide in the gospel of John, the epistles of John I, II, III and the book of Revelation.
The apostles in the Second century coined the word "Trinity/Triune God" to describe the Godhead= Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit and the RCC in the 4th century accepted as one of their main doctrines, the Deity of Christ and Jesus is God the Christ/Son NOT God the Father. They are 3 separate Divine Beings but ONE Godhead= Father, Christ and Holy Spirit.
professing.proboards.com/thread/31498/which-2x2s-anti-trinity-believers?page=2
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Post by What Hat on Oct 14, 2022 10:53:54 GMT -5
Because they grew out of Faith Mission meetings which were held mainly for members of various denominations and never held in competition with established Sunday church services. However, some attendees of Faith Mission meetings preferred mission meetings over their Sunday congregations and voila, new denomination. Hi What Hat, I notice a certain poster trots out your name in an attempt to verify a theory that the friends church continued in an unbroken chain from the shores of Galilee. Including reference to Waldensians etc I would like to hear from you. To read your thoughts today. Our understanding can evolve and I'm interested in knowing, do you still perceive it that way today. ( Hope I've got the right person.) Cheers. I don't think I've ever argued for a form of apostolic succession. Some workers don't like this term, but clearly it is what they argued for when stating "this goes back to Galilee". Although they coyly don't elaborate greatly on what 'this' is. I suppose the objection is that 'workers' aren't exactly 'apostles' like Paul or Silas, but then when did apostles become workers? The Catholics would have the strongest claim to apostolic succession but there are gaps in the historical record. All I ever argued for is a succession of ideas - that the doctrine of the f&w isn't novel, did not spring forth whole cloth from the mind of William Irvine, and that the core ideas have existed throughout history. I do reject the idea that the work of the Holy Spirit requires intervention through a worker, and the idea that a 'divine anointing' from one generation of workers to the next is required in order to spread the Gospel. So that was in the past. Along the way, I've become more of a universalist Christian. I liked a lot of the doctrine on the Tentmaker web site, but tbh have not looked in some years. After we left the friends we did participate in some home church activity for a number of years. Still friends with these various folks, but the meetings themselves dissolved due to, to put it politely, an inability to co-ordinate schedules. Once COVID is more in remission, I will be looking for an active, conventional church community once again, but tbh, I really like lazy Sundays at this point in my life. I have no great anxiety on how my life will be judged given my universalist leanings, but I do miss worship practice. |
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Post by snow on Oct 14, 2022 14:04:32 GMT -5
Hi What Hat, I notice a certain poster trots out your name in an attempt to verify a theory that the friends church continued in an unbroken chain from the shores of Galilee. Including reference to Waldensians etc I would like to hear from you. To read your thoughts today. Our understanding can evolve and I'm interested in knowing, do you still perceive it that way today. ( Hope I've got the right person.) Cheers. I don't think I've ever argued for a form of apostolic succession. Some workers don't like this term, but clearly it is what they argued for when stating "this goes back to Galilee". Although they coyly don't elaborate greatly on what 'this' is. I suppose the objection is that 'workers' aren't exactly 'apostles' like Paul or Silas, but then when did apostles become workers? The Catholics would have the strongest claim to apostolic succession but there are gaps in the historical record. All I ever argued for is a succession of ideas - that the doctrine of the f&w isn't novel, did not spring forth whole cloth from the mind of William Irvine, and that the core ideas have existed throughout history. I do reject the idea that the work of the Holy Spirit requires intervention through a worker, and the idea that a 'divine anointing' from one generation of workers to the next is required in order to spread the Gospel. So that was in the past. Along the way, I've become more of a universalist Christian. I liked a lot of the doctrine on the Tentmaker web site, but tbh have not looked in some years. After we left the friends we did participate in some home church activity for a number of years. Still friends with these various folks, but the meetings themselves dissolved due to, to put it politely, an inability to co-ordinate schedules. Once COVID is more in remission, I will be looking for an active, conventional church community once again, but tbh, I really like lazy Sundays at this point in my life. I have no great anxiety on how my life will be judged given my universalist leanings, but I do miss worship practice. It's just one more example of Nathan being dishonest. He claims that you said it's an unbroken line from the sea of Galilee to the current workers. Not just an idea but actual groups throughout the years that were workers. He claims the organization that Irvine came out of were workers but he can't give a list of names before Irvine formed the 2x2's. I don't deny that there have been groups off and on throughout history that tried to mimic the early apostles more closely than the RCC, but there is no unbroken line from the beginning as the workers claimed many times. |
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Post by guest8 on Oct 14, 2022 14:36:46 GMT -5
I don't think I've ever argued for a form of apostolic succession. Some workers don't like this term, but clearly it is what they argued for when stating "this goes back to Galilee". Although they coyly don't elaborate greatly on what 'this' is. I suppose the objection is that 'workers' aren't exactly 'apostles' like Paul or Silas, but then when did apostles become workers? The Catholics would have the strongest claim to apostolic succession but there are gaps in the historical record. All I ever argued for is a succession of ideas - that the doctrine of the f&w isn't novel, did not spring forth whole cloth from the mind of William Irvine, and that the core ideas have existed throughout history. I do reject the idea that the work of the Holy Spirit requires intervention through a worker, and the idea that a 'divine anointing' from one generation of workers to the next is required in order to spread the Gospel. So that was in the past. Along the way, I've become more of a universalist Christian. I liked a lot of the doctrine on the Tentmaker web site, but tbh have not looked in some years. After we left the friends we did participate in some home church activity for a number of years. Still friends with these various folks, but the meetings themselves dissolved due to, to put it politely, an inability to co-ordinate schedules. Once COVID is more in remission, I will be looking for an active, conventional church community once again, but tbh, I really like lazy Sundays at this point in my life. I have no great anxiety on how my life will be judged given my universalist leanings, but I do miss worship practice. It's just one more example of Nathan being dishonest. He claims that you said it's an unbroken line from the sea of Galilee to the current workers. Not just an idea but actual groups throughout the years that were workers. He claims the organization that Irvine came out of were workers but he can't give a list of names before Irvine formed the 2x2's. I don't deny that there have been groups off and on throughout history that tried to mimic the early apostles more closely than the RCC, but there is no unbroken line from the beginning as the workers claimed many times. Exactly Snow. Thats why I wanted What Hat to clarify it. |
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Post by nathan on Oct 15, 2022 0:39:47 GMT -5
The Vaudois apostles claimed they are unbroken apostolic succession just like the RCC has done the same, because they came from the same cloth of Jesus Christ New Testament Church. The Vaudois continue to uphold Christ Jesus New Testament ministry and fellowship teachings for 1800 years. Read Rev. chapters 11-12 the True Church of Christ through the centuries.The Pilgrim Church by E.H. Broadbent Page 81-101 Who are the Vaudois and Where did they come from? The Vaudois (A.D. 68-1800) are, in fact, "Descended" from those refugees from ITALY who after Paul (A.D. 68) apostle had there "Preached" the Gospel, abandoned their beautiful country and FLED, like the Woman mentioned in the Book of (Revelation, Chapter 12), to these Wild mountains (Swiss Alps), where they have to, this day, handed down the Gospel from "father to son," in the SAME purity and simplicity as it was preached by Paul apostle.
The Brethren in the valleys NEVER lost the knowledge and consciousness of their "Origin" and "Unbroken" history there. In the Alpine Valleys of Piedmont (Italy) there had been, for centuries, congregations of believers calling themselves brethren, who came widely known as "Waldenses or Vaudois," though they did NOT, themselves, accept the name. They trace their "Origin" in those parts, back to Apostolic times. Like many of the so-called Cathar, Paulican, and other churches, these were NOT "Reformed" NEVER having degenerated from the New Testament patterns, as had the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox and some others, but having ALWAYS maintained, in varying degree, the Apostolic tradition. From the time of the Emperor Constantine (3rd century) there HAD continued to be a "Succession" of those who preached the Gospel and founded churches, uninfluenced by the relations between Church and State existing at the time. This accounts for the large bodies of Christians, well established in the Scriptures, and free from idolatry and the other evils prevailing in the dominant professing Church, to be found in the Taurus Mountains and Alpine valleys. These latter, in the quiet seclusion of their mountains, had remained unaffected by the development of the Roman Catholic Church. The "Vaudois" considered the Scriptures, both for doctrine and church order, to be binding of their time, and NOT rendered obsolete by change of circumstances. It was SAID of them that their whole manner of thought and Action was an endeavor to "HOLD FAST" the character of Original Christianity.
When, from the 14th century onward, the valleys were invaded and the people had to negotiate with surrounding rulers, they always emphasized this to the Prince of Savoy, who had the longest dealings with them, they could "ALWAYS" assert without fear of contradiction the uniformity of their faith, from Father to Son through time immemorial, even the Very AGE of the Apostles.
To Francis I of France they said, in 1544: "This confession is that which we have received from our ancestors, even from Hand to Hand, according as their predecessors in ALL time and EVERY Age have Taught and delivered. Let your Highness consider, that this Religion, in which we live, is NOT merely our religion of the present day, or a religion discovered for the FIRST time only a few years ago, as our enemies Falsely pretend, but it is religion of our fathers and of our grandfathers, yea, of our forefathers and of our predecessors still more remote. It is the religion of the Saints and of the Martyrs, of the Confessors and of the Apostles."
When they came into contact with the Reformers in the 16th century, they said, "Our ancestors have often recounted us that we have EXISTED from the time of the Apostles. In all matters nevertheless we agree with you, and thinking as you think, from the Very days of the apostles themselves, we have ever been consistent respecting the faith." ~~ The RCC in Rome by the 3rd century they departed from Christ New Testament teachings and the bishop/elder leadership in Rome taken over the 2-3rd century apostolic ministry, they add pagans ceremonials, rituals to the church to draw more converts. Read Rev. chapters 17-18.www.ccel.org/b/bevan/friends/friends.htm, The Three Friends of God in the 14th Century. The short account given in the following pages of Three of the "Friends of God" of the 14th century, is but a small fragment of a history which would form itself a voluminous library, the history of the "Brethren" of the Middle Ages known to us "Many names", but in England chiefly as the Lollards or Boni Homines.... In the 14th history of the "Friends of God" who stood in immediate connection with "Vaudois and Waldensian", the Brethren wrote: They said that about the year (A.D. 320) after Christ, the Church in Rome!! had fallen into worldliness, and was "Corrupted" through evil teaching. For the Roman emperor Constantine, instead of persecuting the Christians, had begun to honor them, and to give them "Worldly" Power and riches, and the "Bishops" became lords and princes, and the things of God were judged by worldly judges, and NOT by the Word of the Lord.
And, because their fathers had "Held Fast" to the Ancient teachings of the apostles of the Lord, they had been KILLED. Many of them had FLED to the mountains in Italy, and Switzerland (Alps mountains), France and some to other countries. God had kept them as the apple of His eye, and they could "NEVER" be destroyed though they had to suffer hardship, persecution, death, from generation to generation. So, as time went on, they were found in many races, and in many lands, and wherever they went, they brought the Word of God, as they "Believed" the apostles taught it.
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 15, 2022 1:44:09 GMT -5
It's just one more example of Nathan being dishonest. He claims that you said it's an unbroken line from the sea of Galilee to the current workers. Not just an idea but actual groups throughout the years that were workers. He claims the organization that Irvine came out of were workers but he can't give a list of names before Irvine formed the 2x2's. I don't deny that there have been groups off and on throughout history that tried to mimic the early apostles more closely than the RCC, but there is no unbroken line from the beginning as the workers claimed many times. Exactly Snow. Thats why I wanted What Hat to clarify it. Thank you for clearing that up guest8 and What Hat, I called nathan out about this recently on the main board. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 15, 2022 1:45:49 GMT -5
The Vaudois apostles claimed they are unbroken apostolic succession just like the RCC has done the same, because they came from the same cloth of Jesus Christ New Testament Church. The Vaudois continue to uphold Christ Jesus New Testament ministry and fellowship teachings for 1800 years. Read Rev. chapters 11-12 the True Church of Christ through the centuries.The Pilgrim Church by E.H. Broadbent Page 81-101 Who are the Vaudois and Where did they come from? The Vaudois (A.D. 68-1800) are, in fact, "Descended" from those refugees from ITALY who after Paul (A.D. 68) apostle had there "Preached" the Gospel, abandoned their beautiful country and FLED, like the Woman mentioned in the Book of (Revelation, Chapter 12), to these Wild mountains (Swiss Alps), where they have to, this day, handed down the Gospel from "father to son," in the SAME purity and simplicity as it was preached by Paul apostle.
The Brethren in the valleys NEVER lost the knowledge and consciousness of their "Origin" and "Unbroken" history there. In the Alpine Valleys of Piedmont (Italy) there had been, for centuries, congregations of believers calling themselves brethren, who came widely known as "Waldenses or Vaudois," though they did NOT, themselves, accept the name. They trace their "Origin" in those parts, back to Apostolic times. Like many of the so-called Cathar, Paulican, and other churches, these were NOT "Reformed" NEVER having degenerated from the New Testament patterns, as had the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox and some others, but having ALWAYS maintained, in varying degree, the Apostolic tradition. From the time of the Emperor Constantine (3rd century) there HAD continued to be a "Succession" of those who preached the Gospel and founded churches, uninfluenced by the relations between Church and State existing at the time. This accounts for the large bodies of Christians, well established in the Scriptures, and free from idolatry and the other evils prevailing in the dominant professing Church, to be found in the Taurus Mountains and Alpine valleys. These latter, in the quiet seclusion of their mountains, had remained unaffected by the development of the Roman Catholic Church. The "Vaudois" considered the Scriptures, both for doctrine and church order, to be binding of their time, and NOT rendered obsolete by change of circumstances. It was SAID of them that their whole manner of thought and Action was an endeavor to "HOLD FAST" the character of Original Christianity.
When, from the 14th century onward, the valleys were invaded and the people had to negotiate with surrounding rulers, they always emphasized this to the Prince of Savoy, who had the longest dealings with them, they could "ALWAYS" assert without fear of contradiction the uniformity of their faith, from Father to Son through time immemorial, even the Very AGE of the Apostles.
To Francis I of France they said, in 1544: "This confession is that which we have received from our ancestors, even from Hand to Hand, according as their predecessors in ALL time and EVERY Age have Taught and delivered. Let your Highness consider, that this Religion, in which we live, is NOT merely our religion of the present day, or a religion discovered for the FIRST time only a few years ago, as our enemies Falsely pretend, but it is religion of our fathers and of our grandfathers, yea, of our forefathers and of our predecessors still more remote. It is the religion of the Saints and of the Martyrs, of the Confessors and of the Apostles."
When they came into contact with the Reformers in the 16th century, they said, "Our ancestors have often recounted us that we have EXISTED from the time of the Apostles. In all matters nevertheless we agree with you, and thinking as you think, from the Very days of the apostles themselves, we have ever been consistent respecting the faith." ~~ The RCC in Rome by the 3rd century they departed from Christ New Testament teachings and the bishop/elder leadership in Rome taken over the 2-3rd century apostolic ministry, they add pagans ceremonials, rituals to the church to draw more converts. Read Rev. chapters 17-18.www.ccel.org/b/bevan/friends/friends.htm, The Three Friends of God in the 14th Century. The short account given in the following pages of Three of the "Friends of God" of the 14th century, is but a small fragment of a history which would form itself a voluminous library, the history of the "Brethren" of the Middle Ages known to us "Many names", but in England chiefly as the Lollards or Boni Homines.... In the 14th history of the "Friends of God" who stood in immediate connection with "Vaudois and Waldensian", the Brethren wrote: They said that about the year (A.D. 320) after Christ, the Church in Rome!! had fallen into worldliness, and was "Corrupted" through evil teaching. For the Roman emperor Constantine, instead of persecuting the Christians, had begun to honor them, and to give them "Worldly" Power and riches, and the "Bishops" became lords and princes, and the things of God were judged by worldly judges, and NOT by the Word of the Lord.
And, because their fathers had "Held Fast" to the Ancient teachings of the apostles of the Lord, they had been KILLED. Many of them had FLED to the mountains in Italy, and Switzerland (Alps mountains), France and some to other countries. God had kept them as the apple of His eye, and they could "NEVER" be destroyed though they had to suffer hardship, persecution, death, from generation to generation. So, as time went on, they were found in many races, and in many lands, and wherever they went, they brought the Word of God, as they "Believed" the apostles taught it. So you twisted what What Hat actually said nathan! Do you ever learn? |
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Post by nathan on Oct 15, 2022 8:57:04 GMT -5
Exactly Snow. Thats why I wanted What Hat to clarify it. Thank you for clearing that up guest8 and What Hat , I called nathan out about this recently on the main board. # 2) Hi Nathan, While staying in our home a few days in November, 2005, George Gittins, a senior Manitoba worker told us the following story. One year in the early 1970s George was in charge of facilities at the Calloway, Nebraska convention. At about 3:00 a.m. one night during the convention the wind got up and George decided to get out of bed and make sure the big meeting tent was properly tied down to withstand the gale. After he had secured the tent and was about to head back to bed he happened to notice someone walking down the road in the dark. As the figure approached, George recognized the person to be Robert Darling, one of the visiting workers. (The first known workers' list indicates Rob Darling he went into the ministry in 1905.) George decided to start whistling as he did not want to scare the poor man. When they connected, George asked Robert if everything was okay, to which he replied in the affirmative. Robert told him that often when he can't sleep at night he gets up and goes for a walk. George said to him "I bet you are missing a good cup of tea. I was recently sent some good Red Rose tea from Canada, so let's go over to the cook house and I'll make you a good cup of tea." Robert readily agreed. So between 3:00 and 4:00 a.m. during the middle of convention the two men sat in the cook house drinking tea made the proper way (start with fresh water, don't boil it too long, heat the pot first etc.). During the course of their impromptu visit, Robert talked about the early days. George told Robert that he did not have any concerns about the beginnings of our faith back in Ireland, but wondered if he would tell him about it. Without hesitation, Robert proceeded to do so. He told George that William Irvine heard the gospel through his sister who was working as a domestic helper for a family who had moved to Ireland from the Alps region of Germany/Switzerland/France= The Waldenses some years earlier because of religious persecution. (There may have been other families who had moved to Ireland as well and were in fellowship with the family for whom William Irvine's sister worked.) In any event, this family told William's sister about their faith and the true ministry, and apparently she attended fellowship meetings in their home. After making her choice she got in touch with her brother, William, who was preaching for the Faith Mission in Ireland. He came and met these folks and after hearing the gospel from them, also made his choice and was baptized. William then left the Faith Mission and went out into the ministry as the first modern day worker. (George also told us that he had heard George Walker say that we owed a lot to William Irvine because he was the first worker in modern times to sell everything and go out on faith to preach the gospel.) The following day George went to see Garret Hughes who was also at the convention and told him what Robert Darling had shared with him the night before. Garret's comment was words to the effect that Robert would know because he was there. I suggested to George that this story should really be told because it seemed to add an important piece to the puzzle that had many folks here in North America and other places confused and bitter about the origins of our faith. George's comment was, "Yes, I agree it should be told. You can tell this story to whomever you wish." I asked George about the family/s that Robert mentioned. What happened to them? Robert apparently told George that a number of their descendants had gone into the work and at the time of him telling the story, there were still a number in the ministry--I believe, in North America. Robert also told George that the family/s in question did not want their name/s spread around and being given public credit/notoriety for the revival of the faith at the turn of the century. (Why, George was not sure. Perhaps they did not want the undue attention.) So George did not pursue finding out their name/s and, I presume, at the time the names were incidental to Robert's very interesting story. Robert did tell George, however, that he knew the family concerned and had been in their home. In a later discussion George said that it was certainly scriptural for William Irvine and his sister to profess and be baptized through an elder. He referred to Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts. George also told us that some years ago when he and Calvin Casselman (now deceased) were together in BC, Cornelius Jaenen, the author of "The Apostles' Doctrine and Fellowship", had come to visit them (Cornelius had professed through Calvin). George used the occasion to tell Cornelius what Robert Darling had told him about the early days. Cornelius' response was that he was not surprised because Robert's story was consistent with things he had heard over the years and come across in his research. Raymond G. Reed, December, 2005 The author of the Seldom gate book |
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Post by intelchips on Oct 15, 2022 10:08:18 GMT -5
Thank you for clearing that up guest8 and What Hat , I called nathan out about this recently on the main board. # 2) Hi Nathan, While staying in our home a few days in November, 2005, George Gittins, a senior Manitoba worker told us the following story. One year in the early 1970s George was in charge of facilities at the Calloway, Nebraska convention. At about 3:00 a.m. one night during the convention the wind got up and George decided to get out of bed and make sure the big meeting tent was properly tied down to withstand the gale. After he had secured the tent and was about to head back to bed he happened to notice someone walking down the road in the dark. As the figure approached, George recognized the person to be Robert Darling, one of the visiting workers. (The first known workers' list indicates Rob Darling he went into the ministry in 1905.) George decided to start whistling as he did not want to scare the poor man. When they connected, George asked Robert if everything was okay, to which he replied in the affirmative. Robert told him that often when he can't sleep at night he gets up and goes for a walk. George said to him "I bet you are missing a good cup of tea. I was recently sent some good Red Rose tea from Canada, so let's go over to the cook house and I'll make you a good cup of tea." Robert readily agreed. So between 3:00 and 4:00 a.m. during the middle of convention the two men sat in the cook house drinking tea made the proper way (start with fresh water, don't boil it too long, heat the pot first etc.). During the course of their impromptu visit, Robert talked about the early days. George told Robert that he did not have any concerns about the beginnings of our faith back in Ireland, but wondered if he would tell him about it. Without hesitation, Robert proceeded to do so. He told George that William Irvine heard the gospel through his sister who was working as a domestic helper for a family who had moved to Ireland from the Alps region of Germany/Switzerland/France= The Waldenses some years earlier because of religious persecution. (There may have been other families who had moved to Ireland as well and were in fellowship with the family for whom William Irvine's sister worked.) In any event, this family told William's sister about their faith and the true ministry, and apparently she attended fellowship meetings in their home. After making her choice she got in touch with her brother, William, who was preaching for the Faith Mission in Ireland. He came and met these folks and after hearing the gospel from them, also made his choice and was baptized. William then left the Faith Mission and went out into the ministry as the first modern day worker. (George also told us that he had heard George Walker say that we owed a lot to William Irvine because he was the first worker in modern times to sell everything and go out on faith to preach the gospel.) The following day George went to see Garret Hughes who was also at the convention and told him what Robert Darling had shared with him the night before. Garret's comment was words to the effect that Robert would know because he was there. I suggested to George that this story should really be told because it seemed to add an important piece to the puzzle that had many folks here in North America and other places confused and bitter about the origins of our faith. George's comment was, "Yes, I agree it should be told. You can tell this story to whomever you wish." I asked George about the family/s that Robert mentioned. What happened to them? Robert apparently told George that a number of their descendants had gone into the work and at the time of him telling the story, there were still a number in the ministry--I believe, in North America. Robert also told George that the family/s in question did not want their name/s spread around and being given public credit/notoriety for the revival of the faith at the turn of the century. (Why, George was not sure. Perhaps they did not want the undue attention.) So George did not pursue finding out their name/s and, I presume, at the time the names were incidental to Robert's very interesting story. Robert did tell George, however, that he knew the family concerned and had been in their home. In a later discussion George said that it was certainly scriptural for William Irvine and his sister to profess and be baptized through an elder. He referred to Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts. George also told us that some years ago when he and Calvin Casselman (now deceased) were together in BC, Cornelius Jaenen, the author of "The Apostles' Doctrine and Fellowship", had come to visit them (Cornelius had professed through Calvin). George used the occasion to tell Cornelius what Robert Darling had told him about the early days. Cornelius' response was that he was not surprised because Robert's story was consistent with things he had heard over the years and come across in his research. Raymond G. Reed, December, 2005 The author of the Seldom gate book Using the lack of evidence as proffer to affirm is rarely effective. Yes, in special cases it is a valid method of proving history but not very often. And then to counterbalance your Hyperbolic tale you must invent a few more facts. So go ahead and tell us someone in the stories link mentioned the Waldense besides yourself. Let me help you. You might add to your story by saying, in my opinion this sounds very much like the Waldense. See Nathan that would be acceptable. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 15, 2022 21:27:41 GMT -5
The Vaudois apostles claimed they are unbroken apostolic succession just like the RCC has done the same, because they came from the same cloth of Jesus Christ New Testament Church. The Vaudois continue to uphold Christ Jesus New Testament ministry and fellowship teachings for 1800 years. Read Rev. chapters 11-12 the True Church of Christ through the centuries.The Pilgrim Church by E.H. Broadbent Page 81-101 Who are the Vaudois and Where did they come from? The Vaudois (A.D. 68-1800) are, in fact, "Descended" from those refugees from ITALY who after Paul (A.D. 68) apostle had there "Preached" the Gospel, abandoned their beautiful country and FLED, like the Woman mentioned in the Book of (Revelation, Chapter 12), to these Wild mountains (Swiss Alps), where they have to, this day, handed down the Gospel from "father to son," in the SAME purity and simplicity as it was preached by Paul apostle.
The Brethren in the valleys NEVER lost the knowledge and consciousness of their "Origin" and "Unbroken" history there. In the Alpine Valleys of Piedmont (Italy) there had been, for centuries, congregations of believers calling themselves brethren, who came widely known as "Waldenses or Vaudois," though they did NOT, themselves, accept the name. They trace their "Origin" in those parts, back to Apostolic times. Like many of the so-called Cathar, Paulican, and other churches, these were NOT "Reformed" NEVER having degenerated from the New Testament patterns, as had the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox and some others, but having ALWAYS maintained, in varying degree, the Apostolic tradition. From the time of the Emperor Constantine (3rd century) there HAD continued to be a "Succession" of those who preached the Gospel and founded churches, uninfluenced by the relations between Church and State existing at the time. This accounts for the large bodies of Christians, well established in the Scriptures, and free from idolatry and the other evils prevailing in the dominant professing Church, to be found in the Taurus Mountains and Alpine valleys. These latter, in the quiet seclusion of their mountains, had remained unaffected by the development of the Roman Catholic Church. The "Vaudois" considered the Scriptures, both for doctrine and church order, to be binding of their time, and NOT rendered obsolete by change of circumstances. It was SAID of them that their whole manner of thought and Action was an endeavor to "HOLD FAST" the character of Original Christianity.
When, from the 14th century onward, the valleys were invaded and the people had to negotiate with surrounding rulers, they always emphasized this to the Prince of Savoy, who had the longest dealings with them, they could "ALWAYS" assert without fear of contradiction the uniformity of their faith, from Father to Son through time immemorial, even the Very AGE of the Apostles.
To Francis I of France they said, in 1544: "This confession is that which we have received from our ancestors, even from Hand to Hand, according as their predecessors in ALL time and EVERY Age have Taught and delivered. Let your Highness consider, that this Religion, in which we live, is NOT merely our religion of the present day, or a religion discovered for the FIRST time only a few years ago, as our enemies Falsely pretend, but it is religion of our fathers and of our grandfathers, yea, of our forefathers and of our predecessors still more remote. It is the religion of the Saints and of the Martyrs, of the Confessors and of the Apostles."
When they came into contact with the Reformers in the 16th century, they said, "Our ancestors have often recounted us that we have EXISTED from the time of the Apostles. In all matters nevertheless we agree with you, and thinking as you think, from the Very days of the apostles themselves, we have ever been consistent respecting the faith." ~~ The RCC in Rome by the 3rd century they departed from Christ New Testament teachings and the bishop/elder leadership in Rome taken over the 2-3rd century apostolic ministry, they add pagans ceremonials, rituals to the church to draw more converts. Read Rev. chapters 17-18.www.ccel.org/b/bevan/friends/friends.htm, The Three Friends of God in the 14th Century. The short account given in the following pages of Three of the "Friends of God" of the 14th century, is but a small fragment of a history which would form itself a voluminous library, the history of the "Brethren" of the Middle Ages known to us "Many names", but in England chiefly as the Lollards or Boni Homines.... In the 14th history of the "Friends of God" who stood in immediate connection with "Vaudois and Waldensian", the Brethren wrote: They said that about the year (A.D. 320) after Christ, the Church in Rome!! had fallen into worldliness, and was "Corrupted" through evil teaching. For the Roman emperor Constantine, instead of persecuting the Christians, had begun to honor them, and to give them "Worldly" Power and riches, and the "Bishops" became lords and princes, and the things of God were judged by worldly judges, and NOT by the Word of the Lord.
And, because their fathers had "Held Fast" to the Ancient teachings of the apostles of the Lord, they had been KILLED. Many of them had FLED to the mountains in Italy, and Switzerland (Alps mountains), France and some to other countries. God had kept them as the apple of His eye, and they could "NEVER" be destroyed though they had to suffer hardship, persecution, death, from generation to generation. So, as time went on, they were found in many races, and in many lands, and wherever they went, they brought the Word of God, as they "Believed" the apostles taught it. Gaslighting again. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 15, 2022 21:29:30 GMT -5
Don't ever trust him to quote ANYONE correctly. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 16, 2022 3:36:38 GMT -5
Don't ever trust him to quote ANYONE correctly. Exactly BobWilliston ! |
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Post by intelchips on Oct 16, 2022 7:34:19 GMT -5
The Vaudois apostles claimed they are unbroken apostolic succession just like the RCC has done the same, because they came from the same cloth of Jesus Christ New Testament Church. The Vaudois continue to uphold Christ Jesus New Testament ministry and fellowship teachings for 1800 years. Read Rev. chapters 11-12 the True Church of Christ through the centuries.The Pilgrim Church by E.H. Broadbent Page 81-101 Who are the Vaudois and Where did they come from? The Vaudois (A.D. 68-1800) are, in fact, "Descended" from those refugees from ITALY who after Paul (A.D. 68) apostle had there "Preached" the Gospel, abandoned their beautiful country and FLED, like the Woman mentioned in the Book of (Revelation, Chapter 12), to these Wild mountains (Swiss Alps), where they have to, this day, handed down the Gospel from "father to son," in the SAME purity and simplicity as it was preached by Paul apostle.
The Brethren in the valleys NEVER lost the knowledge and consciousness of their "Origin" and "Unbroken" history there. In the Alpine Valleys of Piedmont (Italy) there had been, for centuries, congregations of believers calling themselves brethren, who came widely known as "Waldenses or Vaudois," though they did NOT, themselves, accept the name. They trace their "Origin" in those parts, back to Apostolic times. Like many of the so-called Cathar, Paulican, and other churches, these were NOT "Reformed" NEVER having degenerated from the New Testament patterns, as had the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox and some others, but having ALWAYS maintained, in varying degree, the Apostolic tradition. From the time of the Emperor Constantine (3rd century) there HAD continued to be a "Succession" of those who preached the Gospel and founded churches, uninfluenced by the relations between Church and State existing at the time. This accounts for the large bodies of Christians, well established in the Scriptures, and free from idolatry and the other evils prevailing in the dominant professing Church, to be found in the Taurus Mountains and Alpine valleys. These latter, in the quiet seclusion of their mountains, had remained unaffected by the development of the Roman Catholic Church. The "Vaudois" considered the Scriptures, both for doctrine and church order, to be binding of their time, and NOT rendered obsolete by change of circumstances. It was SAID of them that their whole manner of thought and Action was an endeavor to "HOLD FAST" the character of Original Christianity.
When, from the 14th century onward, the valleys were invaded and the people had to negotiate with surrounding rulers, they always emphasized this to the Prince of Savoy, who had the longest dealings with them, they could "ALWAYS" assert without fear of contradiction the uniformity of their faith, from Father to Son through time immemorial, even the Very AGE of the Apostles.
To Francis I of France they said, in 1544: "This confession is that which we have received from our ancestors, even from Hand to Hand, according as their predecessors in ALL time and EVERY Age have Taught and delivered. Let your Highness consider, that this Religion, in which we live, is NOT merely our religion of the present day, or a religion discovered for the FIRST time only a few years ago, as our enemies Falsely pretend, but it is religion of our fathers and of our grandfathers, yea, of our forefathers and of our predecessors still more remote. It is the religion of the Saints and of the Martyrs, of the Confessors and of the Apostles."
When they came into contact with the Reformers in the 16th century, they said, "Our ancestors have often recounted us that we have EXISTED from the time of the Apostles. In all matters nevertheless we agree with you, and thinking as you think, from the Very days of the apostles themselves, we have ever been consistent respecting the faith." ~~ The RCC in Rome by the 3rd century they departed from Christ New Testament teachings and the bishop/elder leadership in Rome taken over the 2-3rd century apostolic ministry, they add pagans ceremonials, rituals to the church to draw more converts. Read Rev. chapters 17-18.www.ccel.org/b/bevan/friends/friends.htm, The Three Friends of God in the 14th Century. The short account given in the following pages of Three of the "Friends of God" of the 14th century, is but a small fragment of a history which would form itself a voluminous library, the history of the "Brethren" of the Middle Ages known to us "Many names", but in England chiefly as the Lollards or Boni Homines.... In the 14th history of the "Friends of God" who stood in immediate connection with "Vaudois and Waldensian", the Brethren wrote: They said that about the year (A.D. 320) after Christ, the Church in Rome!! had fallen into worldliness, and was "Corrupted" through evil teaching. For the Roman emperor Constantine, instead of persecuting the Christians, had begun to honor them, and to give them "Worldly" Power and riches, and the "Bishops" became lords and princes, and the things of God were judged by worldly judges, and NOT by the Word of the Lord.
And, because their fathers had "Held Fast" to the Ancient teachings of the apostles of the Lord, they had been KILLED. Many of them had FLED to the mountains in Italy, and Switzerland (Alps mountains), France and some to other countries. God had kept them as the apple of His eye, and they could "NEVER" be destroyed though they had to suffer hardship, persecution, death, from generation to generation. So, as time went on, they were found in many races, and in many lands, and wherever they went, they brought the Word of God, as they "Believed" the apostles taught it. Gaslighting again. "apostles claimed" |
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Post by snow on Oct 16, 2022 12:14:56 GMT -5
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Post by Grant on Oct 16, 2022 13:38:38 GMT -5
Excellent, it would be good for Nathan to read. |
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Post by snow on Oct 16, 2022 14:59:19 GMT -5
Excellent, it would be good for Nathan to read. He's had the opportunity as I posted several times over the years when he started up on the unbroken line theme. We have agreed to disagree on the subject. He doesn't believe what the link says because it doesn't meet his beliefs I suppose. |
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Post by nathan on Oct 17, 2022 0:26:56 GMT -5
Excellent, it would be good for Nathan to read. Here is the Vaudois/Waldenses historians by their own people NOT from the RCC point of views. Was Peter Waldo, a Frenchman in 1170 A.D. the Vaudois/ Waldenses Founder? The answer is "NO".Peter Allix: Some remarks upon the Eccesiastic History of the Ancient Church of Piedmont pp. 176-182. The Waldenses had stiffly opposed the abuses of the Roman Church, and they held their doctrine from father to son, ever SINCE the year A.D. 120, as they had heard and received it from their elders and ancestors. These believers of the valleys could "NOT" be so called from Peter Waldo of Lyons, France because he did "NOT" flourish at the soonest till the year 1170, according to Roger Hovenden, whereas the people of the valleys of Lucerne and Angrogne had the name of Wallenses from the beginning of the 12th century. I have already made it appear, that they separated themselves from the Church in Rome long before, and that the name Wallenses or Vaudois, was given to them from the place of their abode, which the habitants called les Vaux de Lucerne et Angrogne, that is to say, the Valley of Lucerne Angrogne, from which came the Latin name Valenses, which was afterwards changed to Valdenses, when the design was laid to make men believe Peter (Waldo) Valdo was their founder.
It has often been said that a man Peter Waldo, who lived in Lyons, France about the year 1170, was really the founder of this "sect that was everywhere spoken against." But, history proves that such could "NOT" be the case, as tradition of the Vaudois existence from the days of the apostles can be traced back, they are not only spoken of as having been known for a long while back, but as being numerous all over Western Europe. For instance, in 1150 the Vaudoios were heard in Cologne, 1177 at Frankfurt, Nuremberg, and other Germans towns; large meetings were held by them at Metz in 1180; in Spain they were persecuted, in 1192 by Alfonso or Aragon, who mentions in his edict against them that he follows the example of his forefathers in forbidding their preaching. In 1170 they were forbidden to preach at Lyons, France by the Pope Lucius III, who edict against them. They abounded at this time in Piedmont, and in Dauphine; all over the Southern of France, at Naples in Sicily, and Southern Italy---in the Netherlands, Flanders, and Brabant --- in Northern France and in England. Who was Peter Waldo?
In 1160 A.D. Peter Waldo of Lyons, France, a successful merchant and banker, was aroused to see his need of salvation by the sudden death of one of the guests at a feast he had given. A Vaudois theologian directed Peter Waldo to the Lord's words in (Matthew 19:21) "If thou be Perfect, go and "sell" that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shall have treasure in Heaven, and come and follow me." Peter Waldo, therefore, made over his lands, property to his wife, SOLD the remainder, and distributed it among the poor. They Believe in Apostolic succession through the laying on of the hand of such had it on those really called to receive this grace. They taught that the Church of Rome had lost this when Pope Sylvester accepted the union of Church and State, but it remained among them. Antiquity of Waldenses: Raynonard, a notable linguist who examined certain Waldensian writings, was convinced of their antiquity. For instance, with regard to the "Noble Lesson," he wrote that "the date of the year 1100 A.D., which we read in the poem, deserves entire confidence." This is three-quarters of a century earlier that the Ministry article's date for the Waldensians. 18) It appears, however, that he was not entirely convinced, since six years later, in 1886, his booklet Who are the Waldenses? compared the influence of the Waldenses with the river Nile that owes its origin to a source still clouded in darkness. He noted that some writers trace the origin of the Waldensian church to the first persecutions of the Christians by the Romans, others to the time of Vigilantius or of Claudius, bishop of Turin, while still others see the Waldensian church first appearing in the twelfth century. And then he stated plainly that the only thing that can be clearly proved is that the origin of the Waldenses is very closely related to the study of the Scriptures. 19) In 1922 the Waldensian school was transferred from Florence to Rome with Emilio's son Ernesto Comba as professor of the theological faculty. Ernesto also wrote a book about the history of the Waldenses: Storia dei Valdesi, published in the Waldensian town of Torre Pellice in 1923. A Dutch copy was published in 1927. In the first chapter we are assured that at least as early as the fourth century there were flourishing churches in the Piedmont valleys. The chapter also indicated that we can accept Monastier's conviction that the Waldensian church is the connecting link between the ancient Christian churches and the later evangelical churches. 25) Allix also held "that Peter Waldo was not the founder of the churches of the valleys, which were in being long before him." He pointed out clearly and decidedly, "Wherefore, that I may once for all clear this matter, I say, first, that it is absolutely false, that these churches were ever founded by Peter Waldo." 28) Another source remarks: "Peter Waldus or Waldo, who was but a follower of the Waldenses, first became known after the persecution of Lyon, France in the year 1181," while "shortly afterwards the history of the Waldenses is confined mainly to the valleys of Piedmont in Switzerland." Waldo and his followers were at first also called "Leonists" (from "Lyon, France") and when persecuted they "fled into Piedmont, incorporating themselves with the Vaudois." Hi, Enuf and Fixit 12/2/2020 Can both of you answer these questions for me. You and Fixit on here believe Peter Waldo was the Founder of the Waldense in 1170. How could Peter Waldo be the founder of the Vaudois/Waldenses when they had two confession of Faith articles written in 1120 and 1150 before he was born and written in 1150 at the age of 10.
Peter Waldo, Valdo, Valdes, or Waldes, also Pierre Vaudès or de Vaux, was a leader of the Waldensians, a Christian spiritual movement of the Middle Ages. Wikipedia Born: 1140, Lyon, France Died: 1218 Nationality: French Peter Waldo was born in Lyon, France 1140. So, did he traveled back in time 1120 and he wrote the confession of Faith article in 1120 and wrote the second Confession of Faith in 1150 when he was 10 years old then he became the founder of the Waldenses in 1170. Does this make sense to you, Enuf? A History of the Christian Church by William Jones first edition 1812 Chapter 5--section 3.
A view of doctrinal sentiments and religious practices of the Waldenses, collected from their own writings. Their historian, John Paul Perrin, in his "Histoitre des Vaudois," published at Geneva in 1619, has furnished us with two of their "Confessions of Faith," of which the following are faithful translations. Sir Samuel Morland has fixed the date of the first of them in the Year 1120 A.D. [Morland's History of the Churches of Peidmont, Page. 30] The Confession of Faith of the Waldenses (A.D.1120)1. We believe and firmly maintain all that is contained in the twelve articles of the symbol, commonly called the Apostles' Creed, and we regard as heretical whatever is inconsistent with the said twelve articles. 2. We believe that there is One Godhead, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
3. We acknowledge for sacred canonical scriptures the books of the Holy Bible. 4. The books above mentioned teach us---that that there is ONE GOD, almighty, unbounded in the wisdom, in infinite in goodness, and who, in his goodness, has made all things. For he created Adam after his own image and likeness. But through the enmity of the devil, and his own disobedience, Adam fell, sin entered into the world, and we became transgressors in and by Adam. 6. That at the time appointed of the Father, Christ was born a time when iniquity everywhere abounded, to make it manifest that it was not for the sake of any good in ourselves, for all were sinners, but that He, who is true, might display his grace and mercy toward us. 7. That Christ is our life, and truth, and peace, and righteousness---our shepherd and advocate, our sacrifice and priest, who died for the salvation of all who should believe, and rose again for justification. 8. And we also firmly believe, that there in NO other mediator, or advocate with God the Father, but Jesus Christ. And as to the Virgin Mary, she was holy, humble, and full of grace; and this we also believe concerning all others Saints, namely, that they are waiting in heaven for the resurrection of their bodies at the Day of Judgment. 9. We also believe, that after this life, there are but two places---One for those who are Saved, and other for the Damned, which [two] we call paradise and hell, wholly denying Purgatory of Antichrist, invented in opposition to the truth. 10. Moreover, we have ever regarded all the inventions of men (in the affairs of religion) as an unspeakable abomination before God; such as the festivals days, and vigils of Saints, and what is called holy-water, the abstaining from flesh on certain days, and such like things, but above all, the Masses. 11. We hold in abhorrence all human inventions, as proceeding from Antichrist, which produce distress [alluding probably to the voluntary penances and mortification imposed by the Catholics on themselves] and are prejudicial to the liberty of the mind. 12. We consider the Sacraments as signs of holy things, or as the visible emblems of invisible blessings. We regard it as proper and even necessary that believers use these symbols or visible forms when it can be done. Notwithstanding which, we maintain that believers may be saved without these signs, when they have neither place nor opportunity of observing them. 13. We acknowledge No sacraments (as of divine appointment) but Baptism and the Lord's supper.
14. We honor the secular powers, with subjection, obedience, promptitude, and payment. [Perrin's Hist. des Vaudois. Ch.12] Masses are impious; and it is madness to say masses for the dead. Purgatory is the invention of men, for they who believe go into eternal life, they who believe not, into eternal damnation. The invoking and worshiping of dead saints is idolatry. The Church of Rome is the lady of Babylon. The pope has not the primacy over ALL the churches of Christ; neither hath he the power of both swords. That is the church of Christ, which hears the pure doctrine of Christ, and observes the ordinances instituted by him, in whatsoever place it exists. Another Waldensians confession of Faith (A.D.1150)
1. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son and the image of the Father---that in Him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells, and that by him alone we know the Father. He is our Mediator and advocate; nor is there any other name given under heaven by which we can be saved. In His name alone we call upon the Father, using no other prayers than those contained in the Holy Scriptures, or such as are in substance agreeable thereunto. 2. We believe in the Holy Spirit as the Comforter, proceeding from the Father, and from the Son; by whose inspiration we are taught to pray; being by Him renewed in the spirit of our minds; who creates us anew unto good works, and from whom we receive the knowledge of the TRUTH. 3. We believe that there is ONE holy church, comprising the whole assembly of the elect and faithful, that have EXISTED from the beginning of the world, or that shall be to the end thereof. Of this church the Lord is the Head! It is governed by his word and guided by the Holy Spirit. In the church it behooves all Christians to have fellowship. For her He [Christ] prays incessantly, and his prayer for it is most acceptable to God, without which indeed there could be NO salvation.
4. We hold that the ministers of the church ought to be Unblameable both in Life and Doctrine; and if found otherwise, that they ought to be deposed from their office, and others substituted in their stead; and that no person ought to presume to take that honor unto himself but he who is called of God as Aaron---that the duties of such are to feed the flock of God, not for filthy lucre's sake, or as having dominion over God's heritage, but as being examples to the flock, in word, in conversation, in charity, in faith, and in chastity. 5. We acknowledge, that kings, princes, and governors, are the appointed and established ministers of God, whom we are bound to obey [in all lawful and civil concerns]. For they bear the sword for the defense of the innocent, and the punishment of evildoers, for which reason we are bound to honor and pay them tribute. From this power and authority, no man can exempt himself, as is manifest from the example of the Lord Jesus Christ, who voluntarily paid tribute, not taking upon himself any jurisdiction of temporal power. 6. We believe that in the ordinance of baptism the water is the visible and external sign, which represents to us that which, by virtue of God's invisible operations, is within us---namely, the renovation of our minds, and the mortification of our members through [the faith of] Jesus Christ. And by this ordinance we are received into the holy congregation of God's people, previously professing and declaring our faith and change of life. 7. We hold that the Lord's supper is a commemoration of, and thanksgiving for, the benefits which we have received by his sufferings and death---and that it is to be received in faith and love---examining ourselves, that so we may eat of that bread and drink of that cup, as it is written in the Holy Scriptures.
Waldensians Apology (1508) In the year 1508, about ten years before Luther began the Reformation, and during the reign of Ladislaus, king of Hungary and Bohemia, a dreadful persecution broke out against that class of his subjects, who held the principles of the Waldenses. The latter, to justify themselves from several charges erroneously imputed to them by their adversaries, drew up an apology addressed to the king, which was still extant in the time Perrin their historian. 1. It was said of them, by their Adversaries, that a man might leave his wife when he pleased. On which they reply, that "matrimony is a bond which nothing but death can dissolve, EXCEPT the crime of fornication, as saith the Lord Jesus Christ" and also the apostle Paul wrote, "Let NOT the wife depart from her husband, nor the husband put away his wife." 2. A second Calumny regards a community of goods and wives--to which they reply, "that marriage was of old ordained by God in Paradise; that it was designed as an antidote against Adultery, and it is recorded by the apostle, when speaking this subject," Let every man have his own wife, and every woman her own husband." Also that "the husband must ought to love his wife as Christ loveth the church," and that such as are married ought to live holily together with their children in the fear of God. That as for goods, every one has possessed his own at all times in all places--they NEVER having had any such inter-community among them, as tended in the smallest degree to derogate from that lawful propriety which every one has by right to his own estate. 3. Another scandalous charge was, that they Worshiped their Barbs or Pastors. The grossness of this calumny, indeed, sufficiently refuted itself. At one time they represented as setting aside the necessity of the pastoral office altogether, and making its peculiar duties common to every member--at others they are charged with holding their pastors in such estimation, they paid Divine honors. The Waldenses refer, on this subject, to their own writings, in which they have shown that God alone is the Object of worship, and that they NEVER intended to give to any creature. And that to their pastors, regarding them as those by whom they have heard the word of reconciliation, they consider themselves as bound to conscience and duty to treat them with Kindness, and to Esteem them in Love for their work's sake. 5. Another charge against them is, that they compelled their Pastors to follow some trade. Their answer to this is surely a very satisfactory one. " We do not think it necessary, say they, that our Pastors should work for bread. They might be better qualified to instruct us if we could maintain them without their own labor; but our poverty has no remedy. [Perrin's Hist. des Vaudois b. ch. 4 and User de Christ. Eccle. succ.et statu. 1243] The Catholic writers frequently reproach them with making little or no account of the Pastoral office--affirming that they made the duty of preaching the gospel common to every member of the church both MALE and FEMALE. Commenius, who published a Synopsis of the disciples of the Church of Bohemia, shows that "a stated Ministry was always considered as matter of great importance among the Waldensians Churches." Waldenses Had Women Preachers!!
The Waldenses still went further in shocking old-time customs and claimed the RIGHT to Preach for "WOMEN" as well as for MEN. The Waldenses Preachers/Pastors or Barbes, were first condemned by the Pope because they were private people and laymen, NOT learned clergy. Women Preachers were NOT uncommon and they played a considerable role in Piedmont as the 14th century. Waldensians' activity was NOT limited to the Alps-maritime region. John Bale in his catalogue mentioned some Waldensians who had begun to teach in England in (1164). Then in the summer of (1199), the bishop of Metz informed Rome that Waldensians were holding secret meetings in his diocese in which MEN and WOMEN Preached, using a French translation of the Bible. The Vaudois, therefore, are not schematics, but continued inheritors of the Church founded by the Apostles. Very few of them were married (in the ministry); and their perpetual missions, their poverty, their missionary tours, their life always spent amidst warfare and dangers, make it easy to understand the reason of their Celibacy. Pope Innocent III declared that secret home assemblies, unlicensed preaching, and disobedience to the command of bishops were NOT to be tolerated. By 1270, the Waldensian Preachers were gathering out disciples in various German states, Austria, Bohemia, Moravia, Hungary, and Poland. The danger for the Catholic Church was that the Bible text conveyed to the general population, by Waldeneses preachers Untrained in theology, appeared to contradict MANY of the doctrines and practices of the Catholic Church, whose clergy was NOT always highly respected. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 17, 2022 1:47:37 GMT -5
Excellent, it would be good for Nathan to read. Here is the Vaudois/Waldenses historians by their own people NOT from the RCC point of views. Was Peter Waldo, a Frenchman in 1170 A.D. the Vaudois/ Waldenses Founder? The answer is "NO".Peter Allix: Some remarks upon the Eccesiastic History of the Ancient Church of Piedmont pp. 176-182. The Waldenses had stiffly opposed the abuses of the Roman Church, and they held their doctrine from father to son, ever SINCE the year A.D. 120, as they had heard and received it from their elders and ancestors. These believers of the valleys could "NOT" be so called from Peter Waldo of Lyons, France because he did "NOT" flourish at the soonest till the year 1170, according to Roger Hovenden, whereas the people of the valleys of Lucerne and Angrogne had the name of Wallenses from the beginning of the 12th century. I have already made it appear, that they separated themselves from the Church in Rome long before, and that the name Wallenses or Vaudois, was given to them from the place of their abode, which the habitants called les Vaux de Lucerne et Angrogne, that is to say, the Valley of Lucerne Angrogne, from which came the Latin name Valenses, which was afterwards changed to Valdenses, when the design was laid to make men believe Peter (Waldo) Valdo was their founder.
It has often been said that a man Peter Waldo, who lived in Lyons, France about the year 1170, was really the founder of this "sect that was everywhere spoken against." But, history proves that such could "NOT" be the case, as tradition of the Vaudois existence from the days of the apostles can be traced back, they are not only spoken of as having been known for a long while back, but as being numerous all over Western Europe. For instance, in 1150 the Vaudoios were heard in Cologne, 1177 at Frankfurt, Nuremberg, and other Germans towns; large meetings were held by them at Metz in 1180; in Spain they were persecuted, in 1192 by Alfonso or Aragon, who mentions in his edict against them that he follows the example of his forefathers in forbidding their preaching. In 1170 they were forbidden to preach at Lyons, France by the Pope Lucius III, who edict against them. They abounded at this time in Piedmont, and in Dauphine; all over the Southern of France, at Naples in Sicily, and Southern Italy---in the Netherlands, Flanders, and Brabant --- in Northern France and in England. Who was Peter Waldo?
In 1160 A.D. Peter Waldo of Lyons, France, a successful merchant and banker, was aroused to see his need of salvation by the sudden death of one of the guests at a feast he had given. A Vaudois theologian directed Peter Waldo to the Lord's words in (Matthew 19:21) "If thou be Perfect, go and "sell" that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shall have treasure in Heaven, and come and follow me." Peter Waldo, therefore, made over his lands, property to his wife, SOLD the remainder, and distributed it among the poor. They Believe in Apostolic succession through the laying on of the hand of such had it on those really called to receive this grace. They taught that the Church of Rome had lost this when Pope Sylvester accepted the union of Church and State, but it remained among them. Antiquity of Waldenses: Raynonard, a notable linguist who examined certain Waldensian writings, was convinced of their antiquity. For instance, with regard to the "Noble Lesson," he wrote that "the date of the year 1100 A.D., which we read in the poem, deserves entire confidence." This is three-quarters of a century earlier that the Ministry article's date for the Waldensians. 18) It appears, however, that he was not entirely convinced, since six years later, in 1886, his booklet Who are the Waldenses? compared the influence of the Waldenses with the river Nile that owes its origin to a source still clouded in darkness. He noted that some writers trace the origin of the Waldensian church to the first persecutions of the Christians by the Romans, others to the time of Vigilantius or of Claudius, bishop of Turin, while still others see the Waldensian church first appearing in the twelfth century. And then he stated plainly that the only thing that can be clearly proved is that the origin of the Waldenses is very closely related to the study of the Scriptures. 19) In 1922 the Waldensian school was transferred from Florence to Rome with Emilio's son Ernesto Comba as professor of the theological faculty. Ernesto also wrote a book about the history of the Waldenses: Storia dei Valdesi, published in the Waldensian town of Torre Pellice in 1923. A Dutch copy was published in 1927. In the first chapter we are assured that at least as early as the fourth century there were flourishing churches in the Piedmont valleys. The chapter also indicated that we can accept Monastier's conviction that the Waldensian church is the connecting link between the ancient Christian churches and the later evangelical churches. 25) Allix also held "that Peter Waldo was not the founder of the churches of the valleys, which were in being long before him." He pointed out clearly and decidedly, "Wherefore, that I may once for all clear this matter, I say, first, that it is absolutely false, that these churches were ever founded by Peter Waldo." 28) Another source remarks: "Peter Waldus or Waldo, who was but a follower of the Waldenses, first became known after the persecution of Lyon, France in the year 1181," while "shortly afterwards the history of the Waldenses is confined mainly to the valleys of Piedmont in Switzerland." Waldo and his followers were at first also called "Leonists" (from "Lyon, France") and when persecuted they "fled into Piedmont, incorporating themselves with the Vaudois." Hi, Enuf and Fixit 12/2/2020 Can both of you answer these questions for me. You and Fixit on here believe Peter Waldo was the Founder of the Waldense in 1170. How could Peter Waldo be the founder of the Vaudois/Waldenses when they had two confession of Faith articles written in 1120 and 1150 before he was born and written in 1150 at the age of 10.
Peter Waldo, Valdo, Valdes, or Waldes, also Pierre Vaudès or de Vaux, was a leader of the Waldensians, a Christian spiritual movement of the Middle Ages. Wikipedia Born: 1140, Lyon, France Died: 1218 Nationality: French Peter Waldo was born in Lyon, France 1140. So, did he traveled back in time 1120 and he wrote the confession of Faith article in 1120 and wrote the second Confession of Faith in 1150 when he was 10 years old then he became the founder of the Waldenses in 1170. Does this make sense to you, Enuf? A History of the Christian Church by William Jones first edition 1812 Chapter 5--section 3.
A view of doctrinal sentiments and religious practices of the Waldenses, collected from their own writings. Their historian, John Paul Perrin, in his "Histoitre des Vaudois," published at Geneva in 1619, has furnished us with two of their "Confessions of Faith," of which the following are faithful translations. Sir Samuel Morland has fixed the date of the first of them in the Year 1120 A.D. [Morland's History of the Churches of Peidmont, Page. 30] The Confession of Faith of the Waldenses (A.D.1120)1. We believe and firmly maintain all that is contained in the twelve articles of the symbol, commonly called the Apostles' Creed, and we regard as heretical whatever is inconsistent with the said twelve articles. 2. We believe that there is One Godhead, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
3. We acknowledge for sacred canonical scriptures the books of the Holy Bible. 4. The books above mentioned teach us---that that there is ONE GOD, almighty, unbounded in the wisdom, in infinite in goodness, and who, in his goodness, has made all things. For he created Adam after his own image and likeness. But through the enmity of the devil, and his own disobedience, Adam fell, sin entered into the world, and we became transgressors in and by Adam. 6. That at the time appointed of the Father, Christ was born a time when iniquity everywhere abounded, to make it manifest that it was not for the sake of any good in ourselves, for all were sinners, but that He, who is true, might display his grace and mercy toward us. 7. That Christ is our life, and truth, and peace, and righteousness---our shepherd and advocate, our sacrifice and priest, who died for the salvation of all who should believe, and rose again for justification. 8. And we also firmly believe, that there in NO other mediator, or advocate with God the Father, but Jesus Christ. And as to the Virgin Mary, she was holy, humble, and full of grace; and this we also believe concerning all others Saints, namely, that they are waiting in heaven for the resurrection of their bodies at the Day of Judgment. 9. We also believe, that after this life, there are but two places---One for those who are Saved, and other for the Damned, which [two] we call paradise and hell, wholly denying Purgatory of Antichrist, invented in opposition to the truth. 10. Moreover, we have ever regarded all the inventions of men (in the affairs of religion) as an unspeakable abomination before God; such as the festivals days, and vigils of Saints, and what is called holy-water, the abstaining from flesh on certain days, and such like things, but above all, the Masses. 11. We hold in abhorrence all human inventions, as proceeding from Antichrist, which produce distress [alluding probably to the voluntary penances and mortification imposed by the Catholics on themselves] and are prejudicial to the liberty of the mind. 12. We consider the Sacraments as signs of holy things, or as the visible emblems of invisible blessings. We regard it as proper and even necessary that believers use these symbols or visible forms when it can be done. Notwithstanding which, we maintain that believers may be saved without these signs, when they have neither place nor opportunity of observing them. 13. We acknowledge No sacraments (as of divine appointment) but Baptism and the Lord's supper.
14. We honor the secular powers, with subjection, obedience, promptitude, and payment. [Perrin's Hist. des Vaudois. Ch.12] Masses are impious; and it is madness to say masses for the dead. Purgatory is the invention of men, for they who believe go into eternal life, they who believe not, into eternal damnation. The invoking and worshiping of dead saints is idolatry. The Church of Rome is the lady of Babylon. The pope has not the primacy over ALL the churches of Christ; neither hath he the power of both swords. That is the church of Christ, which hears the pure doctrine of Christ, and observes the ordinances instituted by him, in whatsoever place it exists. Another Waldensians confession of Faith (A.D.1150)
1. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son and the image of the Father---that in Him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells, and that by him alone we know the Father. He is our Mediator and advocate; nor is there any other name given under heaven by which we can be saved. In His name alone we call upon the Father, using no other prayers than those contained in the Holy Scriptures, or such as are in substance agreeable thereunto. 2. We believe in the Holy Spirit as the Comforter, proceeding from the Father, and from the Son; by whose inspiration we are taught to pray; being by Him renewed in the spirit of our minds; who creates us anew unto good works, and from whom we receive the knowledge of the TRUTH. 3. We believe that there is ONE holy church, comprising the whole assembly of the elect and faithful, that have EXISTED from the beginning of the world, or that shall be to the end thereof. Of this church the Lord is the Head! It is governed by his word and guided by the Holy Spirit. In the church it behooves all Christians to have fellowship. For her He [Christ] prays incessantly, and his prayer for it is most acceptable to God, without which indeed there could be NO salvation.
4. We hold that the ministers of the church ought to be Unblameable both in Life and Doctrine; and if found otherwise, that they ought to be deposed from their office, and others substituted in their stead; and that no person ought to presume to take that honor unto himself but he who is called of God as Aaron---that the duties of such are to feed the flock of God, not for filthy lucre's sake, or as having dominion over God's heritage, but as being examples to the flock, in word, in conversation, in charity, in faith, and in chastity. 5. We acknowledge, that kings, princes, and governors, are the appointed and established ministers of God, whom we are bound to obey [in all lawful and civil concerns]. For they bear the sword for the defense of the innocent, and the punishment of evildoers, for which reason we are bound to honor and pay them tribute. From this power and authority, no man can exempt himself, as is manifest from the example of the Lord Jesus Christ, who voluntarily paid tribute, not taking upon himself any jurisdiction of temporal power. 6. We believe that in the ordinance of baptism the water is the visible and external sign, which represents to us that which, by virtue of God's invisible operations, is within us---namely, the renovation of our minds, and the mortification of our members through [the faith of] Jesus Christ. And by this ordinance we are received into the holy congregation of God's people, previously professing and declaring our faith and change of life. 7. We hold that the Lord's supper is a commemoration of, and thanksgiving for, the benefits which we have received by his sufferings and death---and that it is to be received in faith and love---examining ourselves, that so we may eat of that bread and drink of that cup, as it is written in the Holy Scriptures.
Waldensians Apology (1508) In the year 1508, about ten years before Luther began the Reformation, and during the reign of Ladislaus, king of Hungary and Bohemia, a dreadful persecution broke out against that class of his subjects, who held the principles of the Waldenses. The latter, to justify themselves from several charges erroneously imputed to them by their adversaries, drew up an apology addressed to the king, which was still extant in the time Perrin their historian. 1. It was said of them, by their Adversaries, that a man might leave his wife when he pleased. On which they reply, that "matrimony is a bond which nothing but death can dissolve, EXCEPT the crime of fornication, as saith the Lord Jesus Christ" and also the apostle Paul wrote, "Let NOT the wife depart from her husband, nor the husband put away his wife." 2. A second Calumny regards a community of goods and wives--to which they reply, "that marriage was of old ordained by God in Paradise; that it was designed as an antidote against Adultery, and it is recorded by the apostle, when speaking this subject," Let every man have his own wife, and every woman her own husband." Also that "the husband must ought to love his wife as Christ loveth the church," and that such as are married ought to live holily together with their children in the fear of God. That as for goods, every one has possessed his own at all times in all places--they NEVER having had any such inter-community among them, as tended in the smallest degree to derogate from that lawful propriety which every one has by right to his own estate. 3. Another scandalous charge was, that they Worshiped their Barbs or Pastors. The grossness of this calumny, indeed, sufficiently refuted itself. At one time they represented as setting aside the necessity of the pastoral office altogether, and making its peculiar duties common to every member--at others they are charged with holding their pastors in such estimation, they paid Divine honors. The Waldenses refer, on this subject, to their own writings, in which they have shown that God alone is the Object of worship, and that they NEVER intended to give to any creature. And that to their pastors, regarding them as those by whom they have heard the word of reconciliation, they consider themselves as bound to conscience and duty to treat them with Kindness, and to Esteem them in Love for their work's sake. 5. Another charge against them is, that they compelled their Pastors to follow some trade. Their answer to this is surely a very satisfactory one. " We do not think it necessary, say they, that our Pastors should work for bread. They might be better qualified to instruct us if we could maintain them without their own labor; but our poverty has no remedy. [Perrin's Hist. des Vaudois b. ch. 4 and User de Christ. Eccle. succ.et statu. 1243] The Catholic writers frequently reproach them with making little or no account of the Pastoral office--affirming that they made the duty of preaching the gospel common to every member of the church both MALE and FEMALE. Commenius, who published a Synopsis of the disciples of the Church of Bohemia, shows that "a stated Ministry was always considered as matter of great importance among the Waldensians Churches." Waldenses Had Women Preachers!!
The Waldenses still went further in shocking old-time customs and claimed the RIGHT to Preach for "WOMEN" as well as for MEN. The Waldenses Preachers/Pastors or Barbes, were first condemned by the Pope because they were private people and laymen, NOT learned clergy. Women Preachers were NOT uncommon and they played a considerable role in Piedmont as the 14th century. Waldensians' activity was NOT limited to the Alps-maritime region. John Bale in his catalogue mentioned some Waldensians who had begun to teach in England in (1164). Then in the summer of (1199), the bishop of Metz informed Rome that Waldensians were holding secret meetings in his diocese in which MEN and WOMEN Preached, using a French translation of the Bible. The Vaudois, therefore, are not schematics, but continued inheritors of the Church founded by the Apostles. Very few of them were married (in the ministry); and their perpetual missions, their poverty, their missionary tours, their life always spent amidst warfare and dangers, make it easy to understand the reason of their Celibacy. Pope Innocent III declared that secret home assemblies, unlicensed preaching, and disobedience to the command of bishops were NOT to be tolerated. By 1270, the Waldensian Preachers were gathering out disciples in various German states, Austria, Bohemia, Moravia, Hungary, and Poland. The danger for the Catholic Church was that the Bible text conveyed to the general population, by Waldeneses preachers Untrained in theology, appeared to contradict MANY of the doctrines and practices of the Catholic Church, whose clergy was NOT always highly respected.🤣🤣 But of course you are correct nathan! |
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