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Post by nathan on Dec 13, 2021 22:24:28 GMT -5
** I studied LDS and the Mormons 2x2 Vs. 2x2 workers are like nights and days. LDS and the Mormons 2x2 Vs. Jesus 2x2 ministry in Matthew 10 and Luke 10 are like nights and days. Try it again. I didn't say they were the same in all ways. The question was just about a specific practice. We have not got past: A.) What practice of the 2x2 can not be found in another sect?
You said the practice of "going two preachers at a time" was unique to the 2x2.
I then gave you multiple examples where the practice of "going two preachers at time" is not unique to the 2x2. Going Jesus 2x2 Itinerant ministry more than just going in pairs. The preachers had to leave all of their possession behind and go by Faith, living in their converts homes, No Monthly Salary, and so on... You know how it works.
Did the Mormons, LDS... leave all of their possession behind, staying in the homes of their members, and do they do this for life like the workers?
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Post by xna on Dec 13, 2021 22:36:31 GMT -5
I didn't say they were the same in all ways. The question was just about a specific practice. We have not got past: A.) What practice of the 2x2 can not be found in another sect?
You said the practice of "going two preachers at a time" was unique to the 2x2.
I then gave you multiple examples where the practice of "going two preachers at time" is not unique to the 2x2. Going Jesus 2x2 Itinerant ministry more than just going in pairs. The preachers had to leave all of their possession behind and go by Faith, living in their converts homes, No Monthly Salary, and so on... You know how it works.
Did the Mormons, LDS... leave all of their possession behind, staying in the homes of their members, and do they do this for life like the workers?
We are still on A.) You are now moving on to B.) A.) What practice of the 2x2 can not be found in another sect? B.) Are there other sects which have the same collection of 2x2 practices? C.) How does the 2x2 practices vary from place to place, & country to country?
These questions don't directly follow the thread subject, so if you want to explore these please start a new thread and I will jump in with my $0.02. Remember, I haven't been to a church or opened a bible in 30 years. I am working from memory, so it should be easy for you to win.
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Post by nathan on Dec 13, 2021 22:52:13 GMT -5
Going Jesus 2x2 Itinerant ministry more than just going in pairs. The preachers had to leave all of their possession behind and go by Faith, living in their converts homes, No Monthly Salary, and so on... You know how it works.
Did the Mormons, LDS... leave all of their possession behind, staying in the homes of their members, and do they do this for life like the workers?
We are still on A.) You are now moving on to B.) A.) What practice of the 2x2 can not be found in another sect? B.) Are there other sects which have the same collection of 2x2 practices? C.) How does the 2x2 practices vary from place to place, & country to country?
These questions don't directly follow the thread subject, so if you want to explore these please start a new thread and I will jump in with my $0.02. Remember, I haven't been to a church or opened a bible in 30 years. I am working from memory, so it should be easy for you to win. I already told you I don't KNOW B and C..... I don't keep track of others sects do or don't do anymore. I live only in the Westcoast of USA. I don't live in any other states or country of 2x2s.
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Post by Grant on Dec 13, 2021 22:56:50 GMT -5
I didn't say they were the same in all ways. The question was just about a specific practice. We have not got past: A.) What practice of the 2x2 can not be found in another sect?
You said the practice of "going two preachers at a time" was unique to the 2x2.
I then gave you multiple examples where the practice of "going two preachers at time" is not unique to the 2x2. Going Jesus 2x2 Itinerant ministry more than just going in pairs. The preachers had to leave all of their possession behind and go by Faith, living in their converts homes, No Monthly Salary, and so on... You know how it works.
Did the Mormons, LDS... leave all of their possession behind, staying in the homes of their members, and do they do this for life like the workers?
The Mormons leave all for 3 years. Like Jesus. Matthew 10 was when they went to the Jews and when Jesus left them he told the. To take purse etc in Luke 22. So Matthew 10 was for 3 and a half years. Missionaries go to places where there are no converts to stay with. Nor did Jesus or the apostles when they went to new areas.
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Post by nathan on Dec 13, 2021 23:10:08 GMT -5
Going Jesus 2x2 Itinerant ministry more than just going in pairs. The preachers had to leave all of their possession behind and go by Faith, living in their converts homes, No Monthly Salary, and so on... You know how it works.
Did the Mormons, LDS... leave all of their possession behind, staying in the homes of their members, and do they do this for life like the workers?
The Mormons leave all for 3 years. Like Jesus. Matthew 10 was when they went to the Jews and when Jesus left them he told the. To take purse etc in Luke 22. So Matthew 10 was for 3 and a half years. The Mormons don't SELL ALL of their possession and going in Faith for 2 years, the last I heard.... NOTHING like Jesus, Enuf. You are strecting it too far!
It's their duty, a requirement for the young Mormons to serve TWO years.
You took Matthew 10 and Luke 22 out of context and misinterpreted... Matthew 10 instruction was only for a few weeks! short mission for preaching the goodnews to the Jews and children of Israel in Judea, Jerusalem and to Jews scattered around the world after 70 A.D. but after Jesus had gone back to heaven Most of them continued to their last breath except Judas Iscariot who hanged himself....
Others came along like Paul, Barnabas, Silas, John Mark, Luke, Timothy, Titus and many others continued Christ's GREAT Commission in Matthew 28 to Jews and Gentiles alike for the NEXT 2000 years so far..... to the time of His 2nd coming!
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Post by mountain on Dec 14, 2021 3:50:15 GMT -5
Well the verses I quoted from Exodus show the clear instruction and importance of households and homes where the Passover was to be held. Then we read this event was to become a memorial through the generations and forever. Continuing practice up to the time of the disciples show that it continued in homes. The ceremony was started by God who stated the place it was to be held. The Jews kept this practice. Jesus instigated the new covenant continuation of the emblems in a man's house.
There is no instruction or sanction to allow the Passover to be taken out of homes. Why change it except for church control purposes. The Jews still practice passover where the main event is a Seder which occurs on the 15th day of the Hebrew month of Nisan and lasts for seven days. I have never been to one but I read: The customs include telling the story, discussing the story, drinking four cups of wine, eating matza, partaking of symbolic foods placed on the Passover Seder plate, and reclining in celebration of freedom.
This sounds nothing like the 2x2 taking of the emblems. From the youtube link I posted prior to this post, I see some home churches do have a supper or dinner each Sunday to remind them of the last supper. youtu.be/eubArgoMo-M ----------------
I see the oldest surviving christian church which has been found is the Dura-Europos church which was a normal domestic house converted for worship some time between 233 and 256AD. I suspect there may be older churches which have not been found, or are now completely gone.
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Millions meet in home churches today. I get the idea that the 2x2 think it is only them. Many existing denominations today started out in a home church, then later built special purpose buildings. I understand why you and others like the home church idea. From the youtube link I posted prior that fellow does a good job explaining why he thinks a home church is best. youtu.be/2DPAPXzJitk
Where I think we disagree is: I see a home church as just a tradition - not a commandment.
You misunderstand me. Jesus made it clear, 'where two or three are gathered in my name, there will I be in their midst (paraphrased)' It is the purpose rather than the place for general worship. However, God DID command the Passover to be partaken in homes.
Using the logic of "There is no instruction or sanction to allow the Passover to be taken out of homes. Why change it except for church control purposes."You could also say "There is no instruction or sanction to allow the preachers to go by car. Why change it just because it's more convenient. Going by car is not biblical ." ie using Amish like logic. They couldn't go by car in bible times because there were no cars, just like they could not meet in a church building until they first built churches. This is a false comparison. God DID command the passover be partaken in homes. He commanded nothing about modes of transport. Jesus clearly continued the practice of having the Passover in a man's house and his followers did likewise after his ascension.
It seems to me the main point Jesus was making wasn't about the outward traditions like the place, or the size of a home or kind of building. That would miss the main point which was his ideas. ]For general worship I agree with you, however the Passover, which originally accompanied a meal, was always in a house/home. Once you start to tinker with commandments etc., you get away from the faith that was once delivered to the Saints. [/font] [/b] [/font][/font]
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Post by mountain on Dec 14, 2021 3:59:16 GMT -5
Exodus 12 12 And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying, 2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. 3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: 6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. 7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. 8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. 9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. 10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire. 11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's passover. 12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord. 13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt. 14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.The door posts and lintels stuff is a red herring. They were only necessary once, as can be drawn from the above. The Passover was to be in the households (homes) of the Children of Israel and was to be kept as a memorial down through the generations FOR EVER. Jesus was God's Passover lamb. He kept the memorial in a man's house. As often as the Passover was partaken it was to be a memorial to his life and sacrifice. I have yet to see any authority allowing the Passover to be removed from a believer's house/home. If the household was too small, they were to join with a neighbour either at his or their house. If you find any instruction or authority from the Bible to remove the Passover feast from a believer's house please cite it for me. According to the above, the instructions were that the memorial was to be kept forever and will continue to do so in Heaven. In the meantime it appears that the correct place is in the home/house. Likely it was in tents (homes) while the Children of Israel were in the desert. There is NO WHERE in the bible that says the Blood on the doorposts and lintel was just a one time thing. You shouldn't add to the bible God doesn't like that... Wallington, can't you use your head even once? Go read over the foregoing. What was the purpose of the blood on the two door posts and lintels. Here's your answer. 13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
There was a reason for it. A one off reason. Think, think, think! Put the knife and gun away. Refrain form knee jerk criticism. A similar thing will happen in the future where angels of God will mark the foreheads of true believers and when the angels of wrath 'passover' true believers are spared. I think you need a long course with Virgs?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2021 4:18:06 GMT -5
There is NO WHERE in the bible that says the Blood on the doorposts and lintel was just a one time thing. You shouldn't add to the bible God doesn't like that... Wallington, can't you use your head even once? Go read over the foregoing. What was the purpose of the blood on the two door posts and lintels. Here's your answer. 13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
There was a reason for it. A one off reason. Think, think, think! Put the knife and gun away. Refrain form knee jerk criticism. A similar thing will happen in the future where angels of God will mark the foreheads of true believers and when the angels of wrath 'passover' true believers are spared. I think you need a long course with Virgs? You lack scripture for your lame theory...back to bible school for you....
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Post by mountain on Dec 14, 2021 4:38:25 GMT -5
Wallington, can't you use your head even once? Go read over the foregoing. What was the purpose of the blood on the two door posts and lintels. Here's your answer. 13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
There was a reason for it. A one off reason. Think, think, think! Put the knife and gun away. Refrain form knee jerk criticism. A similar thing will happen in the future where angels of God will mark the foreheads of true believers and when the angels of wrath 'passover' true believers are spared. I think you need a long course with Virgs? You lack scripture for your lame theory...back to bible school for you.... Good try Wally. Nice attempt at a side step. If I ask you to explain what you mean, I will get no response. However, the general reader will understand my post.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2021 4:47:33 GMT -5
You lack scripture for your lame theory...back to bible school for you.... Good try Wally. Nice attempt at a side step. If I ask you to explain what you mean, I will get no response. However, the general reader will understand my post. You lack a valid scriptural source for your lame theory everyone can see that except you...not even a good try man of many faces...
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Post by mountain on Dec 14, 2021 8:12:56 GMT -5
Good try Wally. Nice attempt at a side step. If I ask you to explain what you mean, I will get no response. However, the general reader will understand my post. You lack a valid scriptural source for your lame theory everyone can see that except you...not even a good try man of many faces... I just gave you an excellent scriptural source and you are too blind to see it. The daubing of doors and lintels was a one of thing for a one off purpose. Do you think the Children of Israel were splatting the sacrificial lambs of their tent flaps in the desert before cooking and eating them? Best give up now before the curiosity of others is attracted to examine things more!
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Post by intelchips on Dec 14, 2021 8:42:14 GMT -5
You lack scripture for your lame theory...back to bible school for you.... Good try Wally. Nice attempt at a side step. If I ask you to explain what you mean, I will get no response. However, the general reader will understand my post. What was the purpose of the blood on the two door posts and lintels? The Angel of Death read the DNA and checked against the data base of people related to Moses.
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Post by mountain on Dec 14, 2021 11:55:55 GMT -5
Good try Wally. Nice attempt at a side step. If I ask you to explain what you mean, I will get no response. However, the general reader will understand my post. What was the purpose of the blood on the two door posts and lintels? The Angel of Death read the DNA and checked against the data base of people related to Moses. Beyond the explanation given in scripture I can only speculate. The sacrificial blood of the lamb protected the Children of Israel from the Angel of death. 13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
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Post by intelchips on Dec 14, 2021 12:11:20 GMT -5
What was the purpose of the blood on the two door posts and lintels? The Angel of Death read the DNA and checked against the data base of people related to Moses. Beyond the explanation given in scripture I can only speculate. The sacrificial blood of the lamb protected the Children of Israel from the Angel of death. 13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.Didn't we say the same thing using different words?
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Post by mountain on Dec 14, 2021 13:57:35 GMT -5
That one is lost on me, Ints. Sorry.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2021 14:25:19 GMT -5
You lack a valid scriptural source for your lame theory everyone can see that except you...not even a good try man of many faces... I just gave you an excellent scriptural source and you are too blind to see it. The daubing of doors and lintels was a one of thing for a one off purpose. Do you think the Children of Israel were splatting the sacrificial lambs of their tent flaps in the desert before cooking and eating them? Best give up now before the curiosity of others is attracted to examine things more! Your verse does not say that the blood ritual was a one off thing nor was suspended nice try though. Like I said earlier when they were in the desert it remains a mystery as to how they did it. Keep up funny man...
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Post by mountain on Dec 14, 2021 15:06:06 GMT -5
I just gave you an excellent scriptural source and you are too blind to see it. The daubing of doors and lintels was a one of thing for a one off purpose. Do you think the Children of Israel were splatting the sacrificial lambs of their tent flaps in the desert before cooking and eating them? Best give up now before the curiosity of others is attracted to examine things more! Your verse does not say that the blood ritual was a one off thing nor was suspended nice try though. Like I said earlier when they were in the desert it remains a mystery as to how they did it. Keep up funny man... I am at a loss regarding your logic. Why was the blood of the lamb daubed on the doors and lintels? What was the purpose of it? How often did the Death Angel 'pass over?' What would be the point of daubing the doors and lintels with blood otherwise? I have pointed out twice the relevant scripture but you still can't see it. Had the Children of Israel to leave a knife at the doorway for a one off specific purpose, you would have got that. Or a gun? Well maybe not?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2021 18:27:30 GMT -5
Your verse does not say that the blood ritual was a one off thing nor was suspended nice try though. Like I said earlier when they were in the desert it remains a mystery as to how they did it. Keep up funny man... I am at a loss regarding your logic. Why was the blood of the lamb daubed on the doors and lintels? What was the purpose of it? How often did the Death Angel 'pass over?' What would be the point of daubing the doors and lintels with blood otherwise? I have pointed out twice the relevant scripture but you still can't see it. Had the Children of Israel to leave a knife at the doorway for a one off specific purpose, you would have got that. Or a gun? Well maybe not? They were told to celebrate it every year no where in that instruction does it say "except for the blood ritual" this isn't rocket science...
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Post by chuck on Dec 14, 2021 22:10:25 GMT -5
I didn't say they were the same in all ways. The question was just about a specific practice. We have not got past: A.) What practice of the 2x2 can not be found in another sect?
You said the practice of "going two preachers at a time" was unique to the 2x2.
I then gave you multiple examples where the practice of "going two preachers at time" is not unique to the 2x2. Going Jesus 2x2 Itinerant ministry more than just going in pairs. The preachers had to leave all of their possession behind and go by Faith, living in their converts homes, No Monthly Salary, and so on... You know how it works.
Did the Mormons, LDS... leave all of their possession behind, staying in the homes of their members, and do they do this for life like the workers?
The 12 disciples did not do this....some still owned homes, had wives, had jobs. So Jesus "itinerant ministry" did not have to leave all behind.....
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Post by chuck on Dec 14, 2021 22:11:38 GMT -5
The Mormons leave all for 3 years. Like Jesus. Matthew 10 was when they went to the Jews and when Jesus left them he told the. To take purse etc in Luke 22. So Matthew 10 was for 3 and a half years. The Mormons don't SELL ALL of their possession and going in Faith for 2 years, the last I heard.... NOTHING like Jesus, Enuf. You are strecting it too far!
It's their duty, a requirement for the young Mormons to serve TWO years.
You took Matthew 10 and Luke 22 out of context and misinterpreted... Matthew 10 instruction was only for a few weeks! short mission for preaching the goodnews to the Jews and children of Israel in Judea, Jerusalem and to Jews scattered around the world after 70 A.D. but after Jesus had gone back to heaven Most of them continued to their last breath except Judas Iscariot who hanged himself....
Others came along like Paul, Barnabas, Silas, John Mark, Luke, Timothy, Titus and many others continued Christ's GREAT Commission in Matthew 28 to Jews and Gentiles alike for the NEXT 2000 years so far..... to the time of His 2nd coming! The disciples didn't sell all their possessions. Stop making stuff up.
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Post by chuck on Dec 14, 2021 22:28:11 GMT -5
FYI: Google maps says it takes 7 days to make the journey by foot. I don't get how it could take 40 years. The Lord led them by pillar of fire at night and pillar of a cloud by day if I remember right so they did NOT take a direct route so the lord led them all over the desert. The forty years thing was to purge the hebrews of people that errored in the golden calf worship. 40 means something........just like wilderness means something......and it's not literal like you are suggesting.....
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Post by chuck on Dec 14, 2021 22:33:12 GMT -5
They left Egypt roughly around 1440BC and arrived in the promise land in roughly 1400BC if they were not in the desert where were they for those Forty years Hebraic scholar? This should be a funny/weird explanation folks... FYI: Google maps says it takes 7 days to make the journey by foot. I don't get how it could take 40 years.It didn't, if it actually did happen at all but that's beside the point, 40 is referenced to lots in scripture and its not just coincidence. It will actually mean something that is foreign to us....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2021 22:37:04 GMT -5
The Lord led them by pillar of fire at night and pillar of a cloud by day if I remember right so they did NOT take a direct route so the lord led them all over the desert. The forty years thing was to purge the hebrews of people that errored in the golden calf worship. 40 means something........just like wilderness means something......and it's not literal like you are suggesting..... Yeah right(sarcasm)everything is a verb...chuckite...
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Post by chuck on Dec 15, 2021 0:48:29 GMT -5
40 means something........just like wilderness means something......and it's not literal like you are suggesting..... Yeah right(sarcasm)everything is a verb...chuckite... How many times is the number "forty" mentioned in the bible wally?,
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2021 0:59:40 GMT -5
Yeah right(sarcasm)everything is a verb...chuckite... How many times is the number "forty" mentioned in the bible wally?, The Bible has verses that are literal, metaphor and both. Discernment with the Holy Spirits help will tell you which is which.
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Post by Roselyn T on Dec 15, 2021 1:13:52 GMT -5
How many times is the number "forty" mentioned in the bible wally?, The Bible has verses that are literal, metaphor and both. Discernment with the Holy Spirits help will tell you which is which. Would that be the Holy Spirit that you believe tells you to take a gun to Sunday meeting @wally ? The same one that has revealed something different to the Workers?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2021 1:18:17 GMT -5
The Bible has verses that are literal, metaphor and both. Discernment with the Holy Spirits help will tell you which is which. Would that be the Holy Spirit that you believe tells you to take a gun to Sunday meeting @wally ? The same one that has revealed something different to the Workers? Is there more than one?
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Post by Roselyn T on Dec 15, 2021 1:21:32 GMT -5
Would that be the Holy Spirit that you believe tells you to take a gun to Sunday meeting @wally ? The same one that has revealed something different to the Workers? Is there more than one? Well according to you there must be @wally ! Or does it tell different people different things...
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