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Post by Gene on Feb 9, 2021 17:15:51 GMT -5
I've been immersed in DBT - Dialectical Behavioral Therapy - for the past 6 months or so, and one concept it teaches is regulating ineffective emotions by 'acting opposite to the emotion.' One way that comes to life for me is in consciously shifting my thoughts about someone to loving kindness when my initial reaction to something they've done or said might be anger. Loving kindness can be as simple as putting ourselves in their shoes: If I had done or said what they just did or said, what might be the reason? Maybe I was tired; maybe I'd just gotten some bad news; maybe it stemmed from the way I was raised, or experiences in childhood, or an something that happened to me yesterday. That's how I am trying to put the concept of love to work in my life. That's very powerful. Unrestrained human nature escalates and spirals out of control. A young man Abdul ogles at a young girl in a neighboring village. She slaps his face. He slaps her back. Her brother comes to defend her honour and gives Abdul a hiding to remember. Abdul goes back to his village and tells his family and friends that he was beaten up. The whole village takes up arms and attacks the neighboring village. The two villages ally themselves with other villages and 200 years later the two sides still hate each other. When we love our enemies, the spiral works the opposite way - it de-escalates. A soldier of the Roman occupation commands you to carry his gear for a mile. You pick it up without resentment and carry it for two miles. Two things happen: 1. You've taken the power to yourself, because you're a volunteer now rather than a conscript. You're doing it willingly, not for an enemy but for a fellow human being. 2. There's a good chance the Roman's attitude towards you will change for the better. Excellent points. Personally, I find that when I do act out of loving kindness it brings me much more peace than stewing in my own juices of anger, resentment, impatience, etc. Why do you suppose we don't practice that more than we do?
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Post by fixit on Feb 9, 2021 17:27:42 GMT -5
That's very powerful. Unrestrained human nature escalates and spirals out of control. A young man Abdul ogles at a young girl in a neighboring village. She slaps his face. He slaps her back. Her brother comes to defend her honour and gives Abdul a hiding to remember. Abdul goes back to his village and tells his family and friends that he was beaten up. The whole village takes up arms and attacks the neighboring village. The two villages ally themselves with other villages and 200 years later the two sides still hate each other. When we love our enemies, the spiral works the opposite way - it de-escalates. A soldier of the Roman occupation commands you to carry his gear for a mile. You pick it up without resentment and carry it for two miles. Two things happen: 1. You've taken the power to yourself, because you're a volunteer now rather than a conscript. You're doing it willingly, not for an enemy but for a fellow human being. 2. There's a good chance the Roman's attitude towards you will change for the better. Excellent points. Personally, I find that when I do act out of loving kindness it brings me much more peace than stewing in my own juices of anger, resentment, impatience, etc. Why do you suppose we don't practice that more than we do? Because we're not born that way.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2021 18:04:08 GMT -5
Excellent points. Personally, I find that when I do act out of loving kindness it brings me much more peace than stewing in my own juices of anger, resentment, impatience, etc. Why do you suppose we don't practice that more than we do? Because we're not born that way. If I dig deep enough, I find that fear is the biggest impediment to love. And does it not say that "Perfect love will cast out fear"?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2021 19:01:36 GMT -5
so you are saying that Jesus was saying love at the expense of truth? interesting take and not biblical by any measure at the same time...elder It will take a bit of work to bring the Bible into line with Wally's expectations... Matthew 5:43 “You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. 44 But I say, love your enemies!(but not at the expense of truth). Pray for those who persecute you! 45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. 46 If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. 47 If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. 48 But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect. If you decide to use the gun that you take to meeting, you'll need to decide on the fly whether the enemy you're about to kill is the kind of enemy you should love, or the kind of enemy you should kill because of truth. so you are saying that Jesus was saying love at the expense of truth? interesting take and not biblical by any measure at the same time...elder
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Post by fixit on Feb 9, 2021 19:28:43 GMT -5
It will take a bit of work to bring the Bible into line with Wally's expectations... Matthew 5:43 “You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. 44 But I say, love your enemies!(but not at the expense of truth). Pray for those who persecute you! 45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. 46 If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. 47 If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. 48 But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect. If you decide to use the gun that you take to meeting, you'll need to decide on the fly whether the enemy you're about to kill is the kind of enemy you should love, or the kind of enemy you should kill because of truth. so you are saying that Jesus was saying love at the expense of truth? interesting take and not biblical by any measure at the same time...elder Probably love in spite of truth would describe it better. My question for you Wally: If you were there when Jesus refused to condemn the woman taken in adultery, would you have cast the first stone? John 8:3 As he was speaking, the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in the act of adultery. They put her in front of the crowd. 4 “Teacher,” they said to Jesus, “this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 The law of Moses says to stone her. What do you say?” 6 They were trying to trap him into saying something they could use against him, but Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his finger. 7 They kept demanding an answer, so he stood up again and said, “All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!” 8 Then he stooped down again and wrote in the dust. 9 When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one, beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of the crowd with the woman. 10 Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?” 11 “No, Lord,” she said. And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2021 19:29:47 GMT -5
Yes , love trumps truth , in Jesus teachings . Alvin i'm not sure that is biblical do you have a verse saying "Love trumps truth"? because Love and truth are NOT really mutually exclusive... and that is not what i asked here it is again: "so you are saying that Jesus was saying love at the expense of truth?"
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2021 19:39:48 GMT -5
so you are saying that Jesus was saying love at the expense of truth? interesting take and not biblical by any measure at the same time...elder Probably love in spite of truth would describe it better. that is a different condition and not even close to what i am asking...nice dodge though...
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Post by Gene on Feb 9, 2021 19:55:17 GMT -5
Because we're not born that way. If I dig deep enough, I find that fear is the biggest impediment to love. And does it not say that "Perfect love will cast out fear"? I hadn't made that connection between the statement "Perfect love will cast out fear" and the idea the fear is the biggest impediment to love. It makes sense. To take it a step further, to what degree do you suppose hatred is an expression of fear?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2021 20:23:45 GMT -5
i'm not sure that is biblical do you have a verse saying "Love trumps truth"? because Love and truth are NOT really mutually exclusive... and that is not what i asked here it is again: "so you are saying that Jesus was saying love at the expense of truth?" The many verses of teaching Salvation by grace , are examples of love trumping truth . - a different “ ‘modern “ example might be where the priest in “Les miserable “ lies to Jabert about Jean ValJean stealing his candlesticks Alvin Alvin love at the expense of truth is not really the same as love trumping truth.
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Post by speak on Feb 9, 2021 20:44:49 GMT -5
So Speak puts up an innocuous post referencing what Graham Snow said about love. Something the forum needs more of. Lee immediately links it to politics and references Communism. Bob challenges why, and immediately the context of Love gets overtaken with a spirit of argument. My two cents worth is this: The BLM protest movement had been building for a long time, due to some systemic racism at various levels. It started to come to a head over the Trayvon Martin killing, and then got progessively worse due to a number of incidents, some false reporting of the George Floyd incident, and social media. I was well aware of the takeover by BLM and other protesters in Seattle, and the police inaction, and I know an elderly couple who saw their business go up in flames. I saw the coverage of similar events elsewhere, and politically motivated Mayors telling the police to not intervene. It was shocking. What people fail to see though, and it has happened right throughout history, a protest movement is always born out of an injustice, and until it is rectified, it will smoulder for centuries, and then burst into flames again. Just look at the Middle East and The Balkans for example. If Trump had condemned the wrongs in the first instance, and promised to take affirmative action to avoid repeats, things might have cooled down, but he poured petrol onto the flames, and had to be cajoled into belatedly calling it out, but it was too late. Granted, he was business oriented, more than politically, but surely his advisors would have had some influence, or were they just as bad, or scared of being fired? It would not have taken much IQ to see what sort of leadership was required, but the political IQ was severely lacking from what I can recall. I am reminded of The Beatles singing "All you need is love" well speak did link it to political solutions and that All Nations and All people would become as "one" in some kind of love fest. guess what? the world will become "one" near the end under the beast and the vehicle to get there will be socialism/communism and some kind of combo religion which will probably have an emphasis on "love" at the expense of truth. i don't think it was as innocuous as you think it was. now its perfectly fine to wish for something but its neither realistic or biblical to expect that to happen given what we all know what is coming. What a crock, I didn't link it to anything but to love. Is love so simple that the concept of it you can't understand? You can't have truth if you don't have the love that goes with it they inseparable.
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Post by speak on Feb 9, 2021 20:46:26 GMT -5
◄ Luke 22:31 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat.” What to do about it? Stop being sifted like you were all wheat. Resist communism. I don't get it. What am I missing? Nothing, just some dribble.
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Post by speak on Feb 9, 2021 20:49:11 GMT -5
*** Trump was a very smart business man and political. He KNEW he couldn't TAKE on two powerful communists at once. He wanted to deal/defeat China Communists FIRST, then He would tackle Russia next but China got the best of Trump through theit bought Democrats party. This isn't what I signed up for. It hurts my heart to see how quickly discussion got off topic, considering how nice the original post was. Do you have any thoughts about the OP, the verses and message that was shared? Or perhaps you don't feel as strongly about scripture as you do politics? We are all entitled to our opinions, and of course we value our freedom of choice and freedom of speech, but there is a place to discuss politics and a place to discuss God. Please, I came to this forum to connect with others who love the Word of God, and rejoice in all things that are of the Holy Spirit. An online forum is a brilliant vehicle for this, and has the potential to be a wonderful and abundant source of encouragement and spiritual nourishment. But I see again and again how discussion on any active thread becomes tainted and sour as a result of commentors who can't for the life of them separate church from state. Seeming to wear both badges with such immense pride that they have hopelessly entangled the two, even went as far as to adopt the hot tangled jumbo mess as an identity. **sigh** And here I am, no better than they... But to any of you who share my sentiments, just remember this. If something you read here does not contribute in a positive or constructive manner and invokes negative feelings and thoughts within you, it is likely not worth your time to engage. Highly controversial in nature, a TROLL feeds on negativity, so they say things that provoke. They are fulfilled when they get a big rise out of a lot of people in response to a silly little comment (grenade) that they leave. Nice post crumbsly, don't give up your sanity can go a long way in this insane place
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Post by speak on Feb 9, 2021 20:50:05 GMT -5
*** Fixit only believes what he read on the Internet and fake news, we had first hand experienced for 6 months. NATHAN, just how have you and WALLY "experienced first hand" anything that the rest of us have NOT also experienced?Because they are "special".
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Post by speak on Feb 9, 2021 20:51:26 GMT -5
This isn't what I signed up for. It hurts my heart to see how quickly discussion got off topic, considering how nice the original post was. Do you have any thoughts about the OP, the verses and message that was shared? Or perhaps you don't feel as strongly about scripture as you do politics? We are all entitled to our opinions, and of course we value our freedom of choice and freedom of speech, but there is a place to discuss politics and a place to discuss God. Please, I came to this forum to connect with others who love the Word of God, and rejoice in all things that are of the Holy Spirit. An online forum is a brilliant vehicle for this, and has the potential to be a wonderful and abundant source of encouragement and spiritual nourishment. But I see again and again how discussion on any active thread becomes tainted and sour as a result of commentors who can't for the life of them separate church from state. Seeming to wear both badges with such immense pride that they have hopelessly entangled the two, even went as far as to adopt the hot tangled jumbo mess as an identity. **sigh** And here I am, no better than they... But to any of you who share my sentiments, just remember this. If something you read here does not contribute in a positive or constructive manner and invokes negative feelings and thoughts within you, it is likely not worth your time to engage. Highly controversial in nature, a TROLL feeds on negativity, so they say things that provoke. They are fulfilled when they get a big rise out of a lot of people in response to a silly little comment (grenade) that they leave. Sorry, we go off topics all the time on here. Jesus has taught us to LOVE God, one another, ourselves and others. God and Jesus first, others second and ourselves last. If you practice Charity or Divine Love of God in your life I Cor. 13 then you are BLESSED in deed to God, others and yourself.
Nice words, but is that all there is to it? How about the life that goes with them.
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Post by speak on Feb 9, 2021 20:53:29 GMT -5
if you think about it real hard you will realize he was addressing it towards fixit a down under not anyone else in america. OK. I didn't realize that fixit lived "down under."In paradise
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2021 20:57:50 GMT -5
What would be some examples , if any , of Jesus teachings of truth , at the expense of love ? Alvin there are actually several but this one always pops up in my mind... Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. the down unders and a few others on this board don't like verses like this though because it upsets the apple cart of love... here he pretty much beat's down a number of sinners with the Truth and not in a "love fest" way... the Baptist and Paul were similar some of the time... i say you either teach ALL of the bible or none...sticking to only the happy parts won't necessarily help anyone...
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Post by speak on Feb 9, 2021 20:57:52 GMT -5
I've been immersed in DBT - Dialectical Behavioral Therapy - for the past 6 months or so, and one concept it teaches is regulating ineffective emotions by 'acting opposite to the emotion.' One way that comes to life for me is in consciously shifting my thoughts about someone to loving kindness when my initial reaction to something they've done or said might be anger. Loving kindness can be as simple as putting ourselves in their shoes: If I had done or said what they just did or said, what might be the reason? Maybe I was tired; maybe I'd just gotten some bad news; maybe it stemmed from the way I was raised, or experiences in childhood, or an something that happened to me yesterday. That's how I am trying to put the concept of love to work in my life. That's very powerful. Unrestrained human nature escalates and spirals out of control. A young man Abdul ogles at a young girl in a neighboring village. She slaps his face. He slaps her back. Her brother comes to defend her honour and gives Abdul a hiding to remember. Abdul goes back to his village and tells his family and friends that he was beaten up. The whole village takes up arms and attacks the neighboring village. The two villages ally themselves with other villages and 200 years later the two sides still hate each other. When we love our enemies, the spiral works the opposite way - it de-escalates. A soldier of the Roman occupation commands you to carry his gear for a mile. You pick it up without resentment and carry it for two miles. Two things happen: 1. You've taken the power to yourself, because you're a volunteer now rather than a conscript. You're doing it willingly, not for an enemy but for a fellow human being. 2. There's a good chance the Roman's attitude towards you will change for the better. Love is the key.
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Post by speak on Feb 9, 2021 20:59:14 GMT -5
That's very powerful. Unrestrained human nature escalates and spirals out of control. A young man Abdul ogles at a young girl in a neighboring village. She slaps his face. He slaps her back. Her brother comes to defend her honour and gives Abdul a hiding to remember. Abdul goes back to his village and tells his family and friends that he was beaten up. The whole village takes up arms and attacks the neighboring village. The two villages ally themselves with other villages and 200 years later the two sides still hate each other. When we love our enemies, the spiral works the opposite way - it de-escalates. A soldier of the Roman occupation commands you to carry his gear for a mile. You pick it up without resentment and carry it for two miles. Two things happen: 1. You've taken the power to yourself, because you're a volunteer now rather than a conscript. You're doing it willingly, not for an enemy but for a fellow human being. 2. There's a good chance the Roman's attitude towards you will change for the better. Excellent points. Personally, I find that when I do act out of loving kindness it brings me much more peace than stewing in my own juices of anger, resentment, impatience, etc. Why do you suppose we don't practice that more than we do? Brings joy to the soul.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2021 20:59:27 GMT -5
well speak did link it to political solutions and that All Nations and All people would become as "one" in some kind of love fest. guess what? the world will become "one" near the end under the beast and the vehicle to get there will be socialism/communism and some kind of combo religion which will probably have an emphasis on "love" at the expense of truth. i don't think it was as innocuous as you think it was. now its perfectly fine to wish for something but its neither realistic or biblical to expect that to happen given what we all know what is coming. You can't have truth if you don't have the love that goes with it they inseparable. i made that point earlier you are a day late and a dollar short...
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Post by speak on Feb 9, 2021 21:03:54 GMT -5
It will take a bit of work to bring the Bible into line with Wally's expectations... Matthew 5:43 “You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. 44 But I say, love your enemies!(but not at the expense of truth). Pray for those who persecute you! 45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. 46 If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. 47 If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. 48 But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect. If you decide to use the gun that you take to meeting, you'll need to decide on the fly whether the enemy you're about to kill is the kind of enemy you should love, or the kind of enemy you should kill because of truth. so you are saying that Jesus was saying love at the expense of truth? interesting take and not biblical by any measure at the same time...elder Love and truth go together inseparable. 1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 2 John 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
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Post by speak on Feb 9, 2021 21:10:07 GMT -5
You can't have truth if you don't have the love that goes with it they inseparable. i made that point earlier you are a day late and a dollar short... What a lovely spirit you have, no love or even decency show there and even not with the truth of God. When one shows disrespect/contempt to another it is in direct contradiction to the truth of God.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2021 21:11:29 GMT -5
so you are saying that Jesus was saying love at the expense of truth? interesting take and not biblical by any measure at the same time...elder Love and truth go together inseparable. 1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 2 John 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. like i said just a few second ago i already said the same thing up post you are too late and a dollar short...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2021 21:13:09 GMT -5
i made that point earlier you are a day late and a dollar short... What a lovely spirit you have, no love or even decency show there and even not with the truth of God. When one shows disrespect/contempt to another it is in direct contradiction to the truth of God. uh oh with this post you may be in violation of your own words....elder
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Post by speak on Feb 9, 2021 21:13:17 GMT -5
Love and truth go together inseparable. 1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 2 John 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. like i said just a few second ago i already said the same thing up post you are too late and a dollar short... And you still show contempt. Not of God's love or truth.
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Post by speak on Feb 9, 2021 21:13:47 GMT -5
What a lovely spirit you have, no love or even decency show there and even not with the truth of God. When one shows disrespect/contempt to another it is in direct contradiction to the truth of God. uh oh with this post you may be in violation of your own words....elder More contempt.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2021 21:14:40 GMT -5
uh oh with this post you may be in violation of your own words....elder More contempt. look in the mirror elder...where is the "love"...
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Post by fixit on Feb 9, 2021 21:35:29 GMT -5
That's very powerful. Unrestrained human nature escalates and spirals out of control. A young man Abdul ogles at a young girl in a neighboring village. She slaps his face. He slaps her back. Her brother comes to defend her honour and gives Abdul a hiding to remember. Abdul goes back to his village and tells his family and friends that he was beaten up. The whole village takes up arms and attacks the neighboring village. The two villages ally themselves with other villages and 200 years later the two sides still hate each other. When we love our enemies, the spiral works the opposite way - it de-escalates. A soldier of the Roman occupation commands you to carry his gear for a mile. You pick it up without resentment and carry it for two miles. Two things happen: 1. You've taken the power to yourself, because you're a volunteer now rather than a conscript. You're doing it willingly, not for an enemy but for a fellow human being. 2. There's a good chance the Roman's attitude towards you will change for the better. Love is the key. Love is not something we "show" or "do" so much as what we "are". You could tape apples to a tree, but it would be a stretch to classify it as a fruitful apple tree.
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Post by nathan on Feb 9, 2021 22:00:49 GMT -5
Sorry, we go off topics all the time on here. Jesus has taught us to LOVE God, one another, ourselves and others. God and Jesus first, others second and ourselves last. If you practice Charity or Divine Love of God in your life I Cor. 13 then you are BLESSED in deed to God, others and yourself.
Nice words, but is that all there is to it? How about the life that goes with them. How about you first, elder? I don't see you show it in your life for the last two years. You talks too much about showing love but show so little action, post, and words on here. It's so pathetic really as a 2x2 elder.
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