magpies39plus
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WHY? Does quoting relevant scripture send the 2x2;s into sometimes a nasty response??
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Post by magpies39plus on Jan 19, 2021 1:58:28 GMT -5
As we all know from the BIBLE that most of Jesus Apostles and DIsciples were married. As shown clearly in 1Corinthians CH 9 V 5/6.Paul wrote in the scriptures,so we must adhere to that,don't we? "Haven'I the right to follow the example of the other Apostles and the Lord's Brothers,and Peter,by taking a christian WIFE with me on my travels?Or are Barnabas and I the only ones who have to work for a living?? This is scripture!!! Please explain why the 2x2s founder William Irvine chose a directive from Rome to demand celibacy? the way if someone chosed to live a celibate life as a vegiterian choses their way of life,that is OK. Since Bettica Medica's death there has been no married 2x2 preachers. Celibacy by choice is different to adhering to the demand,isn't it.? Why did the 2x2 doctrine founder choose a directive from ROME to base his ministry on? Just study the history first,before you go off on a usual tangent. Magpie....PS you support a celibate ministry,so you should know why they are!! Magpie
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 2:08:26 GMT -5
We have found that married Clergy are on the same level as yourself. You understand them, they understand you. A much better situation, much easier to communicate.
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Post by Dan on Jan 19, 2021 2:40:10 GMT -5
As we all know from the BIBLE that most of Jesus Apostles and DIsciples were married. As shown clearly in 1Corinthians CH 9 V 5/6.Paul wrote in the scriptures,so we must adhere to that,don't we? "Haven'I the right to follow the example of the other Apostles and the Lord's Brothers,and Peter,by taking a christian WIFE with me on my travels?Or are Barnabas and I the only ones who have to work for a living?? This is scripture!!! Please explain why the 2x2s founder William Irvine chose a directive from Rome to demand celibacy? the way if someone chosed to live a celibate life as a vegiterian choses their way of life,that is OK. Since Bettica Medica's death there has been no married 2x2 preachers. Celibacy by choice is different to adhering to the demand,isn't it.? Why did the 2x2 doctrine founder choose a directive from ROME to base his ministry on? Just study the history first,before you go off on a usual tangent. Magpie....PS you support a celibate ministry,so you should know why they are!! Magpie
Its practical.. Imagine a married itinerant preacher dragging a wife or husband around with them. And with marriage comes kids. How can one be efficient and dedicated when bogged down with family, kids in school etc? Can a worker go from town to town, field to field, and home to home lugging a wife/husband and children with them?
If a preacher was assigned to one place and built a church, marriage wouldn't matter. But when one adheres to the same way Jesus sent his apostles out, being single and celibate if efficient, while a spouse is an inconvenient expense and cumbersome.
The friends can feed and house a pair of Workers, but imagine a pair of married Workers, their spouses, and 5 kids each? Not many homes could accommodate 14 guest. The ultimate example was Christ, he was single and celibate with no fleshly distractions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 2:59:36 GMT -5
Not a problem in main stream Churches. No need to be itinerant, not very practical. Much better if they become community members for a couple of years. They get to know the people better, and establish good relationships. They can move on and they do.
Why did the 2x2's change their policy, there were many married couples in the early days.
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Post by Dan on Jan 19, 2021 3:12:27 GMT -5
Not a problem in main stream Churches. No need to be itinerant, not very practical. Much better if they become community members for a couple of years. They get to know the people better, and establish good relationships. They can move on and they do. Why did the 2x2's change their policy, there were many married couples in the early days.
I believe there are still a couple of married Workers in the states, but the man & wife are both in the Work, travel separately, and are celibate. I guess they married first, but then both decided to go into the work?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 3:40:11 GMT -5
Ridiculous.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 11:18:24 GMT -5
As we all know from the BIBLE that most of Jesus Apostles and DIsciples were married. As shown clearly in 1Corinthians CH 9 V 5/6.Paul wrote in the scriptures,so we must adhere to that,don't we? "Haven'I the right to follow the example of the other Apostles and the Lord's Brothers,and Peter,by taking a christian WIFE with me on my travels?Or are Barnabas and I the only ones who have to work for a living?? This is scripture!!! Please explain why the 2x2s founder William Irvine chose a directive from Rome to demand celibacy? the way if someone chosed to live a celibate life as a vegiterian choses their way of life,that is OK. Since Bettica Medica's death there has been no married 2x2 preachers. Celibacy by choice is different to adhering to the demand,isn't it.? Why did the 2x2 doctrine founder choose a directive from ROME to base his ministry on? Just study the history first,before you go off on a usual tangent. Magpie....PS you support a celibate ministry,so you should know why they are!! Magpie
Its practical.. Imagine a married itinerant preacher dragging a wife or husband around with them. And with marriage comes kids. How can one be efficient and dedicated when bogged down with family, kids in school etc? Can a worker go from town to town, field to field, and home to home lugging a wife/husband and children with them?
If a preacher was assigned to one place and built a church, marriage wouldn't matter. But when one adheres to the same way Jesus sent his apostles out, being single and celibate if efficient, while a spouse is an inconvenient expense and cumbersome.
The friends can feed and house a pair of Workers, but imagine a pair of married Workers, their spouses, and 5 kids each? Not many homes could accommodate 14 guest. The ultimate example was Christ, he was single and celibate with no fleshly distractions.
AMEN...
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Post by nathan on Jan 19, 2021 15:45:41 GMT -5
Its practical.. Imagine a married itinerant preacher dragging a wife or husband around with them. And with marriage comes kids. How can one be efficient and dedicated when bogged down with family, kids in school etc? Can a worker go from town to town, field to field, and home to home lugging a wife/husband and children with them?
If a preacher was assigned to one place and built a church, marriage wouldn't matter. But when one adheres to the same way Jesus sent his apostles out, being single and celibate if efficient, while a spouse is an inconvenient expense and cumbersome.
The friends can feed and house a pair of Workers, but imagine a pair of married Workers, their spouses, and 5 kids each? Not many homes could accommodate 14 guest. The ultimate example was Christ, he was single and celibate with no fleshly distractions.
AMEN... *** I have talked the children of the married workers in the work, he said life wasn't easy to move around from place to places. They depend on the friends hospitality for rent and foods. He had to work when he was a teenager to buy things for himself. After his sister moved from home she stopped professing, her life wasn't easy either like was like living in the fish bowl. My older companion was a cousin to him so we stayed in his home a few times. No, I wouldn't want to be married in the work, with children NOT very practical life for them. Put a lot of burden on the friends. It was much easier for unmarried workers to move around from places to places and have different companions each years and learn things from different ones. When the workers are married they stucked to one companion pretty for the rest of their life. They are useful and it had been done in their calling but NOT a very practical for Jesus 2x2 itinerant New Testament ministry. It would be best for married workers to leave the ministry and have their own family and to raise their children. Some maaries workers had owned the convention grounds, they have Sunday morning meetings, and others have open homes for workers come and stay. They too can be very useful in their new places by supporting the ministry and be of help to anyone they come in contact with.
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magpies39plus
Senior Member
WHY? Does quoting relevant scripture send the 2x2;s into sometimes a nasty response??
Posts: 573
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Post by magpies39plus on Jan 19, 2021 16:05:47 GMT -5
No planes trains and automobiles when PAUL said that he, and Barney were the only two unmarried was there? Anyway why in the Western World does the old Middle East Law,Religious,cultural tradition have to be followed "the witness of two"? Magpie
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Post by nathan on Jan 19, 2021 16:17:45 GMT -5
No planes trains and automobiles when PAUL said that he, and Barney were the only two unmarried was there? Anyway why in the Western World does the old Middle East Law,Religious,cultural tradition have to be followed "the witness of two"? Magpie Paul and Barnabas were NOT the only ones unmarried. It seems their co-workers were NOT married either such as Timothy, Dumas, John Mark, Luke, Sostheneus, Apollo, many others AND most IMPORTANT person of them all JESUS wasn't single/unmarried preacher himself. Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, Silas, Luke, John Mark, and those like them were following Jesus as an married preacher example and NOT to copy Peter example as married preacher.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 16:22:54 GMT -5
*** I have talked the children of the married workers in the work, he said life wasn't easy to move around from place to places. They depend on the friends hospitality for rent and foods. He had to work when he was a teenager to buy things for himself. After his sister moved from home she stopped professing, her life wasn't easy either like was like living in the fish bowl. My older companion was a cousin to him so we stayed in his home a few times. No, I wouldn't want to be married in the work, with children NOT very practical life for them. Put a lot of burden on the friends. It was much easier for unmarried workers to move around from places to places and have different companions each years and learn things from different ones. When the workers are married they stucked to one companion pretty for the rest of their life. They are useful and it had been done in their calling but NOT a very practical for Jesus 2x2 itinerant New Testament ministry. It would be best for married workers to leave the ministry and have their own family and to raise their children. Some maaries workers had owned the convention grounds, they have Sunday morning meetings, and others have open homes for workers come and stay. They too can be very useful in their new places by supporting the ministry and be of help to anyone they come in contact with. None of the reasons given make any sense. Most Churches have married Clergy who stay in the same community for awhile. They get to know their congregation better, and provide much needed Pastoral care. A very important function of the Church, badly neglected by the 2x2's. "When the workers are married they stucked to one companion pretty for the rest of their life." I have been with the same partner for 60 years, would not have it any other way. Can understand not wanting to be stuck with Wally or Nathan for too long.
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Post by nathan on Jan 19, 2021 16:29:39 GMT -5
As we all know from the BIBLE that most of Jesus Apostles and DIsciples were married. As shown clearly in 1Corinthians CH 9 V 5/6.Paul wrote in the scriptures,so we must adhere to that,don't we? "Haven'I the right to follow the example of the other Apostles and the Lord's Brothers,and Peter,by taking a christian WIFE with me on my travels?Or are Barnabas and I the only ones who have to work for a living?? This is scripture!!! Please explain why the 2x2s founder William Irvine chose a directive from Rome to demand celibacy? the way if someone chosed to live a celibate life as a vegiterian choses their way of life,that is OK. Since Bettica Medica's death there has been no married 2x2 preachers. Celibacy by choice is different to adhering to the demand,isn't it.? Why did the 2x2 doctrine founder choose a directive from ROME to base his ministry on? Just study the history first,before you go off on a usual tangent. Magpie....PS you support a celibate ministry,so you should know why they are!! MagpieCelibacy has certainly got a lot of workers in trouble with lust, perversion, romantic affairs, pedophilia, etc ** Yes, some got in trouble but NOT all. Paul said it is better to get married than burn with passion and cause trouble for the workers who keep true to their unmarried life as the pattern of Jesus laid down. God offered a way out get married if any worker can't control his or her sexual urges or passion and Leave the ministry to those who can control their sexual urges to fulfill God's for their lives in the ministry as preacher of the gospel and pastors to the churches.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 16:38:34 GMT -5
Celibacy has certainly got a lot of workers in trouble with lust, perversion, romantic affairs, pedophilia, etc ** Yes, some got in trouble but NOT all. Paul said it is better to get married than burn with passion and cause trouble for the workers who keep true to their unmarried life as the pattern of Jesus laid down. God offered a way out get married if any worker can't control his or her sexual urges or passion and Leave the ministry to those who can control their sexual urges to fulfill God's for their lives in the ministry as preacher of the gospel and pastors to the churches. I guarantee they still masturbate. Whether you do it yourself, or you get a helping hand, the end result is still the same. Celibacy is just a joke, introduced by the RCC Church. Absolutely unnatural.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jan 19, 2021 16:39:18 GMT -5
Celibacy has certainly got a lot of workers in trouble with lust, perversion, romantic affairs, pedophilia, etc ** Yes, some got in trouble but NOT all. Paul said it is better to get married than burn with passion and cause trouble for the workers who keep true to their unmarried life as the pattern of Jesus laid down. God offered a way out get married if any worker can't control his or her sexual urges or passion and Leave the ministry to those who can control their sexual urges to fulfill God's for their lives in the ministry as preacher of the gospel and pastors to the churches. Is that why you left?
We don't know for certain that Jesus wasn't married. Wasn't marriage a pre-requisite for the title, "Rabbi"? Just because it doesn't say he was, it doesn't mean he wasn't. We have to be open-minded on this, at least, and not try and re-write history because to say he wasn't married suits the church ideology.
I understand the practicalities of a celibate and nomadic ministry, and I understand the same of a married pastoral type ministry. Neither should be mutually exclusive, in my opinion.
In the passage you quoted from Corinthians 7:9, I don't see where someone who it was suggested should marry, should also leave the ministry. I think you added that bit, because it suits.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jan 19, 2021 16:39:50 GMT -5
** Yes, some got in trouble but NOT all. Paul said it is better to get married than burn with passion and cause trouble for the workers who keep true to their unmarried life as the pattern of Jesus laid down. God offered a way out get married if any worker can't control his or her sexual urges or passion and Leave the ministry to those who can control their sexual urges to fulfill God's for their lives in the ministry as preacher of the gospel and pastors to the churches. I guarantee they still masturbate. Whether you do it yourself, or you get a helping hand, the end result is still the same. Celibacy is just a joke, introduced by the RCC Church. Absolutely unnatural. Hand maidens?
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Post by nathan on Jan 19, 2021 16:42:01 GMT -5
*** I have talked the children of the married workers in the work, he said life wasn't easy to move around from place to places. They depend on the friends hospitality for rent and foods. He had to work when he was a teenager to buy things for himself. After his sister moved from home she stopped professing, her life wasn't easy either like was like living in the fish bowl. My older companion was a cousin to him so we stayed in his home a few times. No, I wouldn't want to be married in the work, with children NOT very practical life for them. Put a lot of burden on the friends. It was much easier for unmarried workers to move around from places to places and have different companions each years and learn things from different ones. When the workers are married they stucked to one companion pretty for the rest of their life. They are useful and it had been done in their calling but NOT a very practical for Jesus 2x2 itinerant New Testament ministry. It would be best for married workers to leave the ministry and have their own family and to raise their children. Some maaries workers had owned the convention grounds, they have Sunday morning meetings, and others have open homes for workers come and stay. They too can be very useful in their new places by supporting the ministry and be of help to anyone they come in contact with. None of the reasons given make any sense. Most Churches have married Clergy who stay in the same community for awhile. They get to know their congregation better, and provide much needed Pastoral care. A very important function of the Church, badly neglected by the 2x2's. "When the workers are married they stucked to one companion pretty for the rest of their life." I have been with the same partner for 60 years, would not have it any other way. Can understand not wanting to be stuck with Wally or Nathan for too long. ** God the Father and Christ will for the workers to be with MANY co-workers as possible! Learn from each co-workers as you can, take the best example from each one and don't copy or pass it on their bad mistakes. I had learned a lot from many workers I had been with I took the good I see in them and apply it in my own life and ministry. The bad examples I saw in some workers I didn't want to repeat it myself.
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Post by nathan on Jan 19, 2021 16:46:16 GMT -5
** Yes, some got in trouble but NOT all. Paul said it is better to get married than burn with passion and cause trouble for the workers who keep true to their unmarried life as the pattern of Jesus laid down. God offered a way out get married if any worker can't control his or her sexual urges or passion and Leave the ministry to those who can control their sexual urges to fulfill God's for their lives in the ministry as preacher of the gospel and pastors to the churches. I guarantee they still masturbate. Whether you do it yourself, or you get a helping hand, the end result is still the same. Celibacy is just a joke, introduced by the RCC Church. Absolutely unnatural. ** Have you ever heard of wet dreams God has his ways to release the sexual tensions and urges... If the worker feels his sexual urges are getting out of control quit the work and get married, there is no shame in that! It's much better to have sex with married professing women or having affairs in the ministry and cause much harm to people and the ministry and damage your reputation for life.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 16:51:56 GMT -5
Yes I know of some Workers who used to visit professing Woman, when their Husbands were at work. They used to get more than a cup of tea.
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Post by nathan on Jan 19, 2021 17:11:26 GMT -5
Yes I know of some Workers who used to visit professing Woman, when their Husbands were at work. They used to get more than a cup of tea. ** Those are the workers need to settle down, get jobs and have their own wives to bang instead mooching from the professing men wives.
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Post by openingact34 on Jan 19, 2021 17:12:16 GMT -5
Yes I know of some Workers who used to visit professing Woman, when their Husbands were at work. They used to get more than a cup of tea. "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life." Matt 19:29 You're right....some workers have proved Jesus' words to be true
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Post by nathan on Jan 19, 2021 17:23:33 GMT -5
Yes I know of some Workers who used to visit professing Woman, when their Husbands were at work. They used to get more than a cup of tea. "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life." Matt 19:29 You're right....some workers have proved Jesus' words to be true haha... Jesus wasn't TALKING about banging 100 professing wives but plenty of foods to eat, clothes to wear, and money to spend, 100s homes to stay over night BUT not to bang their wives. that is what you call WICKED servants they will be FRIED in the lake of fire for Eternity! That is their rewards for banging other men wives.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jan 19, 2021 17:29:14 GMT -5
Maybe they misheard and thought they were Bonkubines
On a serious note, I recall as a teenager being made aware of some "unauthorised vists" being made by some male workers to wives. And knowing the reputation of one or two of the wives, they would not have been above reproach in that regard either. The sad thing is that it was apparently brushed over, or because the couple were financial contributors of note, nothing was done.
Nathan MaCarthy to his credit, and I didn't have any time for him generally, mandated that both workers had to visit, as a check and balance on this sort of behaviour.
It is sad, but it is also not unexpected, as it is primal human nature, and having married workers would make no difference, apart from posing a logistical challenge. Jerry Falwell Jr notwithstanding!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 17:35:30 GMT -5
** Yes, some got in trouble but NOT all. Paul said it is better to get married than burn with passion and cause trouble for the workers who keep true to their unmarried life as the pattern of Jesus laid down. God offered a way out get married if any worker can't control his or her sexual urges or passion and Leave the ministry to those who can control their sexual urges to fulfill God's for their lives in the ministry as preacher of the gospel and pastors to the churches. Is that why you left?
We don't know for certain that Jesus wasn't married. Wasn't marriage a pre-requisite for the title, "Rabbi"? Just because it doesn't say he was, it doesn't mean he wasn't. We have to be open-minded on this, at least, and not try and re-write history because to say he wasn't married suits the church ideology.
I understand the practicalities of a celibate and nomadic ministry, and I understand the same of a married pastoral type ministry. Neither should be mutually exclusive, in my opinion.
In the passage you quoted from Corinthians 7:9, I don't see where someone who it was suggested should marry, should also leave the ministry. I think you added that bit, because it suits.
the single most important Being in the Universe got married but no mention of it in the entire NT? i smell a fish AKA a cunningly devised fable... and why would God make sure mary was a virgin so he could be born uncorrupted then turn around and have him engage in carnal acts like sex with a human wife? i smell a fish AKA a cunningly devised fable...
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Post by nathan on Jan 19, 2021 17:37:30 GMT -5
** Yes, some got in trouble but NOT all. Paul said it is better to get married than burn with passion and cause trouble for the workers who keep true to their unmarried life as the pattern of Jesus laid down. God offered a way out get married if any worker can't control his or her sexual urges or passion and Leave the ministry to those who can control their sexual urges to fulfill God's for their lives in the ministry as preacher of the gospel and pastors to the churches. Is that why you left?
We don't know for certain that Jesus wasn't married. Wasn't marriage a pre-requisite for the title, "Rabbi"? Just because it doesn't say he was, it doesn't mean he wasn't. We have to be open-minded on this, at least, and not try and re-write history because to say he wasn't married suits the church ideology.
I understand the practicalities of a celibate and nomadic ministry, and I understand the same of a married pastoral type ministry. Neither should be mutually exclusive, in my opinion.
In the passage you quoted from Corinthians 7:9, I don't see where someone who it was suggested should marry, should also leave the ministry. I think you added that bit, because it suits.
*** You need to read your Bible more often... Read Matthew 19 Jesus explained why he and his apostles choose to be unmarried it was for the shake of the kingdom of God. You have not been a worker so you don't understand what Jesus and Paul wrote. You are reading from the saint/followers point of view and understanding, Prag.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 17:41:01 GMT -5
** Yes, some got in trouble but NOT all. Paul said it is better to get married than burn with passion and cause trouble for the workers who keep true to their unmarried life as the pattern of Jesus laid down. God offered a way out get married if any worker can't control his or her sexual urges or passion and Leave the ministry to those who can control their sexual urges to fulfill God's for their lives in the ministry as preacher of the gospel and pastors to the churches. I guarantee they still masturbate. Whether you do it yourself, or you get a helping hand, the end result is still the same. Celibacy is just a joke, introduced by the RCC Church. Absolutely unnatural. you should re-phrase that to SOME...i'v been quite single and quite celibate for 21 years now and have not done the deed during that time...it can be done if you get your mind right and have even a smidgen of self-control...
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Post by nathan on Jan 19, 2021 17:41:26 GMT -5
Is that why you left?
We don't know for certain that Jesus wasn't married. Wasn't marriage a pre-requisite for the title, "Rabbi"? Just because it doesn't say he was, it doesn't mean he wasn't. We have to be open-minded on this, at least, and not try and re-write history because to say he wasn't married suits the church ideology.
I understand the practicalities of a celibate and nomadic ministry, and I understand the same of a married pastoral type ministry. Neither should be mutually exclusive, in my opinion.
In the passage you quoted from Corinthians 7:9, I don't see where someone who it was suggested should marry, should also leave the ministry. I think you added that bit, because it suits.
the single most important Being in the Universe got married but no mention of it in the entire NT? i smell a fish AKA a cunningly devised fable... and why would God make sure mary was a virgin so he could be born uncorrupted then turn around and have him engage in carnal acts like sex with a human wife? i smell a fish AKA a cunningly devised fable... *** Amen, Wally... Prag needs to read Matthew 19 when they asked about marriage, divorce and not getting married, about going the ministry and many of the benefits for LEAVING ALL of these things, wives or future wife, family, father and mother behind.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jan 19, 2021 17:42:46 GMT -5
Is that why you left?
We don't know for certain that Jesus wasn't married. Wasn't marriage a pre-requisite for the title, "Rabbi"? Just because it doesn't say he was, it doesn't mean he wasn't. We have to be open-minded on this, at least, and not try and re-write history because to say he wasn't married suits the church ideology.
I understand the practicalities of a celibate and nomadic ministry, and I understand the same of a married pastoral type ministry. Neither should be mutually exclusive, in my opinion.
In the passage you quoted from Corinthians 7:9, I don't see where someone who it was suggested should marry, should also leave the ministry. I think you added that bit, because it suits.
*** You need to read your Bible more often... Read Matthew 19 Jesus explained why he and his apostles choose to be unmarried it was for the shake of the kingdom of God. You have not been a worker so you don't understand what Jesus and Paul wrote. You are reading from the saint/followers point of view and understanding, Prag. I am open minded and whether Jesus was married or not would make no difference to me.
I think Matthew 19 does not do as you suggest, and it is drawing a very long bow to suggest that it does.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 17:43:03 GMT -5
We have found that married Clergy are on the same level as yourself. You understand them, they understand you. A much better situation, much easier to communicate. Clergy on the same level as members seems like reason enough the workers would be reluctant. An older ex-worker (that many here will know well) and I were discussing this, and he summed it up by quoting Genesis "It is not good for man to be alone". I know he's seen plenty of immorality in the "truth" in his decades in the ministry because of this made-up rule (that isn't of course a rule, wink wink).
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