Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2021 21:09:31 GMT -5
ah the atheistic view of Christ as just a man it won't be long now before you are fully converted. Christ was man and divine to think he didn't know everything about the world and all its trappings is not scriptural or believable. the rich man just showed how evil he was while even in hell that he wanted someone to serve him instead of having any remorse. atheistic humanism didn't come along till WAY later than scripture. as i said before trying to retro-actively applying a modern movement back to 1900+ years ago isn't gonna work for anyone with more than one brain cell. babble on... I agree Christ was a man and was divine. The trouble is your devine is magic, mine is a nature. Yours you need fairy magic and pixie dust, mine doesn't, yours requires burning people who don't agree with you, mine does not. Yours requires religion, mine does not, yours requires selfishness, mine does not, yours requires other people's consent(worker's), mine does not ect ect ect. Treating people properly has been around for ever, long before 2x2ism. Christ never puts 2x2ism above treating people properly in the context of his time on earth. ah i get it your more of a science believer than a bible believer well good luck with that come judgment day. no one was comparing atheistic humanism to 2x2ism so i get it you hate 2x2ism. Christ was never an atheistic humanist..nice try though babble on its quite revealing the longer you bloviate.
|
|
|
Post by Roselyn T on Jan 1, 2021 21:20:49 GMT -5
I agree Christ was a man and was divine. The trouble is your devine is magic, mine is a nature. Yours you need fairy magic and pixie dust, mine doesn't, yours requires burning people who don't agree with you, mine does not. Yours requires religion, mine does not, yours requires selfishness, mine does not, yours requires other people's consent(worker's), mine does not ect ect ect. Treating people properly has been around for ever, long before 2x2ism. Christ never puts 2x2ism above treating people properly in the context of his time on earth. ah i get it your more of a science believer than a bible believer well good luck with that come judgment day. no one was comparing atheistic humanism to 2x2ism so i get it you hate 2x2ism. Christ was never an atheistic humanist..nice try though babble on its quite revealing the longer you bloviate. Showing more of the fruits you are bearing @wally !
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2021 21:26:23 GMT -5
ah i get it your more of a science believer than a bible believer well good luck with that come judgment day. no one was comparing atheistic humanism to 2x2ism so i get it you hate 2x2ism. Christ was never an atheistic humanist..nice try though babble on its quite revealing the longer you bloviate. Showing more of the fruits you are bearing @wally ! longsuffering covers a lot of things...
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Jan 1, 2021 23:00:18 GMT -5
Showing more of the fruits you are bearing @wally ! longsuffering covers a lot of things... I know exactly what you are saying, Wally.... I have been doing it on here longsuffering with people like RT, Curly, Annan, fixit for 20 years! on TMB... It's amazing we are still posting on here, that is a miracle most of them had left or died.
|
|
|
Post by Roselyn T on Jan 1, 2021 23:06:35 GMT -5
longsuffering covers a lot of things... I know exactly what you are saying, Wally.... I have been doing it on here longsuffering with people like RT, Curly, Annan, fixit for 20 years! on TMB... It's amazing we are still posting on here, that is a miracle most of them had left or died.I think you need to look up the meaning of the word "longsuffering" nathan !! The reason you keep posting here is because of your EGO (big noting yourself) which you do all the time !
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Jan 1, 2021 23:46:23 GMT -5
I agree Christ was a man and was divine. The trouble is your devine is magic, mine is a nature. Yours you need fairy magic and pixie dust, mine doesn't, yours requires burning people who don't agree with you, mine does not. Yours requires religion, mine does not, yours requires selfishness, mine does not, yours requires other people's consent(worker's), mine does not ect ect ect. Treating people properly has been around for ever, long before 2x2ism. Christ never puts 2x2ism above treating people properly in the context of his time on earth. ah i get it your more of a science believer than a bible believer well good luck with that come judgment day. no one was comparing atheistic humanism to 2x2ism so i get it you hate 2x2ism. Christ was never an atheistic humanist..nice try though babble on its quite revealing the longer you bloviate. Bible believers burnt Science believers in Hell for suggesting the earth wasn't the centre of the universe. Exclusive believers literally burnt people below them for owning bibles due to fear of misinterpretation. Your attitude smells like smoke, have you been lighting fires with Nathan again wally.....
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2021 0:09:06 GMT -5
first - the only "eternal" reference there is in reference to the devil and false prophet. Second, how can "hell" be cast into the "lake of fire"? I'd suggest that there are so many versions of the afterlife which influenced the bible's writers (and editors, the Church), that what you believe about it is entirely up to you! Which makes the insistence that a loving God plans on torturing most of the flawed humans he created (except "us" of course.... it's for the other people....) for ever a remarkable insight into the mind and heart of anyone who believes such a thing. That's a bit like Nathan's delema of Jesus living inside Lucifer. I had thought he was inside Venus. Or inside the planet.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Jan 2, 2021 0:31:55 GMT -5
I know exactly what you are saying, Wally.... I have been doing it on here longsuffering with people like RT, Curly, Annan, fixit for 20 years! on TMB... It's amazing we are still posting on here, that is a miracle most of them had left or died. I think you need to look up the meaning of the word "longsuffering" nathan !! The reason you keep posting here is because of your EGO (big noting yourself) which you do all the time ! No EGO on my part! Wally, myself and and those like us on here care for your soul and those like you on here.... because AFTER death is too late for you to REPENT and get SAVED. We are suffer long so you and those like you will believe Jesus as your Savior once again.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Jan 2, 2021 0:34:23 GMT -5
That's a bit like Nathan's delema of Jesus living inside Lucifer. I had thought he was inside Venus. Or inside the planet. Chuck is all mixed up, he doesn't KNOW what he is talking and believing most of the time. He is on the left field by himself most of the time. I try NOT to pay too much attention to him to what he believes anymore because is so off the walls.
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Jan 2, 2021 0:36:14 GMT -5
That's a bit like Nathan's delema of Jesus living inside Lucifer. I had thought he was inside Venus. Or inside the planet. Strong's Number - H1966 Hebrew: הילל Transliteration: hêylêl Pronunciation: hay-lale' Definition: From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star: - lucifer. KJV Usage: Lucifer (1x). Occurs: 1 In verses: 1 If Jesus lives inside the morning star....
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2021 0:38:44 GMT -5
ah i get it your more of a science believer than a bible believer well good luck with that come judgment day. no one was comparing atheistic humanism to 2x2ism so i get it you hate 2x2ism. Christ was never an atheistic humanist..nice try though babble on its quite revealing the longer you bloviate. Bible believers burnt Science believers in Hell for suggesting the earth wasn't the centre of the universe. Exclusive believers literally burnt people below them for owning bibles due to fear of misinterpretation. Your attitude smells like smoke, have you been lighting fires with Nathan again wally..... atheistic mao butchered and caused the death of 60-100 million people, we might add stalin with 20-40 million and hitler with 60 million and a few others to that number in the last century alone your new budding atheistic viewpoint isn't that clean itself...nice try though...babble on...
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Jan 2, 2021 0:39:58 GMT -5
I had thought he was inside Venus. Or inside the planet. Chuck is all mixed up, he doesn't KNOW what he is talking and believing most of the time. He is on the left field by himself most of the time. I try NOT to pay too much attention to him to what he believes anymore because is so off the walls.Yes Chuck is mixed up because he has revealed Lucifer the fallen angel was invented long aftwr Christ and Nathan put lines through his points to make them go away.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2021 1:05:50 GMT -5
Bible believers burnt Science believers in Hell for suggesting the earth wasn't the centre of the universe. Exclusive believers literally burnt people below them for owning bibles due to fear of misinterpretation. Your attitude smells like smoke, have you been lighting fires with Nathan again wally..... atheistic mao butchered and caused the death of 60-100 million people, we might add stalin with 20-40 million and hitler with 60 million and a few others to that number in the last century alone your new budding atheistic viewpoint isn't that clean itself...nice try though...babble on... I don't believe Mao ever said he was an atheist. He was raised a Buddhist. He may have been, however. Stalin was an atheist, but he understood that peoples' penchant for religious structure was highly useful. He revived the Russian Orthodox Church. Under Stalin, 22,000 churches became active between 1941 and 1957*. Some atheist indeed! Hitler was far from an atheist.** “Besides that, I believe one thing: there is a Lord God! And this Lord God creates the peoples.” [1] ~Adolf Hitler “We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations; we have stamped it out” [2] ~Adolf Hitler *https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/anti.html **https://www.richarddawkins.net/2014/10/the-atheist-atrocities-fallacy-hitler-stalin-pol-pot/
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2021 1:50:59 GMT -5
atheistic mao butchered and caused the death of 60-100 million people, we might add stalin with 20-40 million and hitler with 60 million and a few others to that number in the last century alone your new budding atheistic viewpoint isn't that clean itself...nice try though...babble on... I don't believe Mao ever said he was an atheist. He was raised a Buddhist. He may have been, however. Stalin was an atheist, but he understood that peoples' penchant for religious structure was highly useful. He revived the Russian Orthodox Church. Under Stalin, 22,000 churches became active between 1941 and 1957*. Some atheist indeed! Hitler was far from an atheist.** “Besides that, I believe one thing: there is a Lord God! And this Lord God creates the peoples.” [1] ~Adolf Hitler “We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations; we have stamped it out” [2] ~Adolf Hitler *https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/anti.html **https://www.richarddawkins.net/2014/10/the-atheist-atrocities-fallacy-hitler-stalin-pol-pot/ buddhism is atheistic in nature buddha even said(i paraphrase)"beliefs in gods are not helpful for enlightenment". regardless of any past affiliations with buddhism sometime during the war and after he took power he setup an atheist government even today china is still about 40-60% "convinced atheist" because of what he setup en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_China. just because stalin promoted religion for his evil benefit doesn't change his status as an atheist killer of 20-40 million people i find there to be a number of equal views that hitler was an atheist, a christian or an occultist but for me one only has to look at what he DID to see it was atheistic in nature and had nothing to do with any religion(no true scotsman may apply here) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler this says he was first favorable towards Christians and critical of atheist but as time went on he distanced himself from Christianity and didn't replace it with any other belief system that anyone is aware of which can only mean he turned atheistic.
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Jan 2, 2021 2:17:03 GMT -5
Bible believers burnt Science believers in Hell for suggesting the earth wasn't the centre of the universe. Exclusive believers literally burnt people below them for owning bibles due to fear of misinterpretation. Your attitude smells like smoke, have you been lighting fires with Nathan again wally..... atheistic mao butchered and caused the death of 60-100 million people, we might add stalin with 20-40 million and hitler with 60 million and a few others to that number in the last century alone your new budding atheistic viewpoint isn't that clean itself...nice try though...babble on... Yes Moa, like self professed Bible believers, didn't believe in God. A proclamation is just that. You can say you believe God but that means you do. The common characteristic is, if your not in unity with me and dont see it my way, we will kill you, if we can get away with it physically we will, or spiritually like 2x2ism.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2021 2:23:55 GMT -5
atheistic mao butchered and caused the death of 60-100 million people, we might add stalin with 20-40 million and hitler with 60 million and a few others to that number in the last century alone your new budding atheistic viewpoint isn't that clean itself...nice try though...babble on... Yes Moa, like self professed Bible believers, didn't believe in God. A proclamation is just that. The common characteristic is, if your not in unity with me and dont see it my way, we will kill you, if we can get away with it physically we will, or spiritually like 2x2ism. so there is a mass movement in the 2x2's to physically kill others who are not in unity with them? i know you hate 2x2ism with a passion but you are just sounding like a complete loonie toon now...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2021 2:43:39 GMT -5
Since I have been accused of straying from sound doctrine It would be a good thing to look at this sound doctrine in a bit of detail. medium.com/@brazenchurch/how-when-the-idea-of-eternal-torment-invaded-church-doctrine-7610e6b70815One bit that was quite fitting to those who love the idea of Hell and looking down into it. The first person to write about “eternal hell” was the Latin (West) North African Tertullian (160–220 A.D.), who is considered the Father of the Latin Church. As most people reason, hell is a place for people you don’t like! Tertullian fantasized that not only the wicked would be in hell but also every philosopher and theologian who ever argued with him! He envisioned a time when he would look down from heaven at those people in hell and laugh with glee! sorry hell and its concept is all over the OT and the NT long before Tertullian mentioned it or was a twinkle in his fathers eyes, but its good for everyone to see where your getting your corrupt view of the bible and Good Sound Christian Doctrine from. hopefully no one falls for it. God is watching.. Can you provide 6 references to “hell” in the Old Testament that would support your claim that “hell and its concept are all over the” Old Testament (where the term “hell” has the meaning which Christians ascribe to it i.e. a place of eternal punishment where the souls of the wicked and unbelievers go after death). Matt10
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Jan 2, 2021 3:03:41 GMT -5
Yes Moa, like self professed Bible believers, didn't believe in God. A proclamation is just that. The common characteristic is, if your not in unity with me and dont see it my way, we will kill you, if we can get away with it physically we will, or spiritually like 2x2ism. so there is a mass movement in the 2x2's to physically kill others who are not in unity with them? i know you hate 2x2ism with a passion but you are just sounding like a complete loonie toon now... Wally im beggining to wonder if you can read properly and keep anything in context. We have just been talking about Bible believers throwing people into Hell (Galileo) or literally burning people, I then said "Bible believers will kill you if they can get away with it", like Jan Hus for example if you're interested. I then quite clearly stated "or spiritually like 2x2ism" And you derive from that, "there is a mass movement in the 2x2's to physically kill others who are not in unity with them" Pray tell how spiritually killing people is mass movement to physically kill people?.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2021 3:19:02 GMT -5
sorry hell and its concept is all over the OT and the NT long before Tertullian mentioned it or was a twinkle in his fathers eyes, but its good for everyone to see where your getting your corrupt view of the bible and Good Sound Christian Doctrine from. hopefully no one falls for it. God is watching.. Can you provide 6 references to “hell” in the Old Testament that would support your claim that “hell and its concept are all over the” Old Testament (where the term “hell” has the meaning which Christians ascribe to it i.e. a place of eternal punishment where the souls of the wicked and unbelievers go after death). Matt10 Psa_116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow. <<<< how can there be pain in the grave? we can go open any grave you want and there is nothing but bones in there and maybe a little hair...how can there be trouble in a grave? or sorrow do bones and hair cry? Pro_23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. <<<< how can you deliver the soul of someone dead from being put in a grave Isa_14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. <<< how can being dead in the grave cause the dead you to be stirred up? how can dead people(kings) in a grave be raised up? Eze_31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth. <<< how can dead person be comforted in the grave, yes a little confusing because who's "comforted" in hell Eze_32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword. <<< how does a dead person speak from the grave? Jon_2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.<<< i have never heard a dead person cry from the grave how can you be afflicted in the grave? all these things are activities last i knew dead people in graves don't do anything but lay there unless of course one believes in zombies...these are clear hints that hell is something else other than just a grave/sheol/gehenna
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2021 3:25:57 GMT -5
so there is a mass movement in the 2x2's to physically kill others who are not in unity with them? i know you hate 2x2ism with a passion but you are just sounding like a complete loonie toon now... Wally im beggining to wonder if you can read properly and keep anything in context. We have just been talking about Bible believers throwing people into Hell (Galileo) or literally burning people, I then said "Bible believers will kill you if they can get away with it", like Jan Hus for example if you're interested. I then quite clearly stated "or spiritually like 2x2ism" And you derive from that, "there is a mass movement in the 2x2's to physically kill others who are not in unity with them" Pray tell how spiritually killing people is mass movement to physically kill people?. i'm beginning to wonder if you know how to write in the English language. i also wonder if you can ever be honest in your postings...you gave two choices "if we can get away with it physically we will, or spiritually like 2x2ism. Physical or spiritual for 2x2ism . i addressed your physical comment nothing more....there was no mention of Galileo in your previous post....
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Jan 2, 2021 4:12:55 GMT -5
Wally im beggining to wonder if you can read properly and keep anything in context. We have just been talking about Bible believers throwing people into Hell (Galileo) or literally burning people, I then said "Bible believers will kill you if they can get away with it", like Jan Hus for example if you're interested. I then quite clearly stated "or spiritually like 2x2ism" And you derive from that, "there is a mass movement in the 2x2's to physically kill others who are not in unity with them" Pray tell how spiritually killing people is mass movement to physically kill people?. i'm beginning to wonder if you know how to write in the English language. i also wonder if you can ever be honest in your postings...you gave two choices "if we can get away with it physically we will, or spiritually like 2x2ism. Physical or spiritual for 2x2ism . i addressed your physical comment nothing more....there was no mention of Galileo in your previous post.... Comma ,,,,,,,,,,or spiritually like 2x2ism. I do believe that is only one choice for 2x2ism. Contex dear wally, Who did the bible believers send to hell for suggesting the earth was not centre of the universe...... Bible believers did actually burn Jan Hus. They could get away with it. You see wally if someone said they sent some dude to hell, I would go and look who ,why, when, they sent him to hell, you read the bible the same way, just parrot some verses spoken by workers literally like a good 2x2 dressed up as 2x2ism performance to stay out of hell and go to heaven with zero awareness of the surrounding context. If you actually took notice of what I wrote you would have worked this out.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2021 10:38:32 GMT -5
Can you provide 6 references to “hell” in the Old Testament that would support your claim that “hell and its concept are all over the” Old Testament (where the term “hell” has the meaning which Christians ascribe to it i.e. a place of eternal punishment where the souls of the wicked and unbelievers go after death). Matt10 Psa_116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow. <<<< how can there be pain in the grave? we can go open any grave you want and there is nothing but bones in there and maybe a little hair...how can there be trouble in a grave? or sorrow do bones and hair cry? Pro_23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. <<<< how can you deliver the soul of someone dead from being put in a grave Isa_14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. <<< how can being dead in the grave cause the dead you to be stirred up? how can dead people(kings) in a grave be raised up? Eze_31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth. <<< how can dead person be comforted in the grave, yes a little confusing because who's "comforted" in hell Eze_32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword. <<< how does a dead person speak from the grave? Jon_2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.<<< i have never heard a dead person cry from the grave how can you be afflicted in the grave? all these things are activities last i knew dead people in graves don't do anything but lay there unless of course one believes in zombies...these are clear hints that hell is something else other than just a grave/sheol/gehenna It appears to me that you are now rolling back from your claim that the [Christian] concept [of hell] is all over the Old Testament and now claiming that the references to hell in the OT are merely hints that hell is something else other than just a grave/sheol. I would suggest that based on what biblical scholars say there is no basis for claiming they are even hints at all. Starting with your references in the Psalms, here is what the eminent biblical scholar Bart Ehrman, Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies, says about the references to hell in Psalms [see source 1 below] “passages in the Book of Psalms that talk about Sheol, or Sheol. It's a word that gets mistranslated into English. Sometimes Sheol is translated by the word hell, and it absolutely is not what people think of as hell.”
“The Bible does talk about this place Sheol, especially in poetry, especially in Psalms. And it's probably not a place that people go to, per se. If you actually look at what the Psalms say about Sheol, they always equate it to the grave or to the pit.” [my emphasis]In relation to your reference to Proverbs here’s what W. Creighton Marlowe, Associate Professor of the Old Testament, writes (see source 2 below] “ That anyone would think [Hebrew word for Sheol] in this verse means "Hell" is utterly amazing and inexplicable.” (my emphasis] And here’s what he says in relation to your reference to Ezekiel 31 v16 “ The [Hebrew word for Sheol] of v. 16 is clearly the same as "the pit," which is the same as "death," which is equated in the context with a hole in the ground ("pit”) or the lower parts of the earth; i.e., the grave or realm of the dead.” (my emphasis] As regards all 31 references to “hell” in the KJV (which includes the others you provided) Marlowe says “ ‘ Hell’ occurs thirty-one times in the current editions of the KJV and nineteen times in the New King James Version (NKJV, 1982).1 It does not occur in modem, major English versions; e.g., in the USA, the New International Version (NN, 1978), New American Standard Version (NASB, 1960), New Revised Standard Version (NRSV, 1989), or New American Bible (NAB, 1970).” (my emphasis] He then goes on to talk about the New KJV which he says “ has eliminated thirteen of the thirty-one times "hell" appears in the KJV” and proves an evaluation of the 18 times it continues to use the word “hell” unlike the other modern versions referred to above. On this matter he concludes: “ None of the nineteen contexts (verses) where [Hebrew word for Sheol] is translated "hell" by the NKJV (eighteen of which have "hell" in the KJV also) is supportive of that translation. In each case the flow of argumentation and/or the poetic parallels proves that the author uses [Hebrew word for Sheol] for the concept of the grave or death.” (my emphasis] It is clear therefore based on those who are qualified to speak on the biblical texts that your understanding of “hell” in the OT is a misunderstanding. But of course the christian fundamentalist cannot afford to accept a different interpretation of hell from the Christian one as to do so risks removing the very thing that people are threatened by and which the Christian God is designed to save them from. Without the threat of hell not only is the need to pay any attention to the Christian God seriously diminished but the need for the Christian God at all is severely diminished. However for those interested in truth (rather than simply having their misplaced beliefs confirmed) these things matter and I would therefore encourage all non fundamentalist believers to read the two sources below. Remember extinguishing your belief in the imaginary place called hell can set you free. Matt10 Source 1 www.npr.org/2020/03/31/824479587/heaven-and-hell-are-not-what-jesus-preached-religion-scholar-says?t=1609573068030Source 2 place.asburyseminary.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.co.uk/&httpsredir=1&article=1194&context=asburyjournal
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Jan 2, 2021 10:51:37 GMT -5
Question: "What is the difference between Sheol, Hades, Hell, the lake of fire, Paradise, and Abraham’s bosom?"
Answer: The different terms used in the Bible for heaven and hell—sheol, hades, gehenna, the lake of fire, paradise, and Abraham’s bosom—are the subject of much debate and can be confusing. The word paradise is used as a synonym for heaven (2 Corinthians 12:3–4; Revelation 2:7). When Jesus was dying on the cross and one of the thieves being crucified with Him asked Him for mercy, Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus knew that His death was imminent and that He would soon be in heaven with His Father. Therefore, Jesus used paradise as a synonym for heaven, and the word has come to be associated with any place of ideal loveliness and delight. Abraham’s bosom is referred to only once in the Bible—in the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19–31). Abraham’s bosom was used in the Talmud as a synonym for heaven. The image in the story is of Lazarus reclining at a table leaning on Abraham’s breast—as John leaned on Jesus’ breast at the Last Supper—at the heavenly banquet. The point of the story is that wicked men will see the righteous in a happy state, while they themselves are in torment, and that a “great gulf” that can never be spanned exists between them (Luke 16:26). Abraham’s bosom is obviously a place of peace, rest, and joy—in other words, paradise. In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means “the place of the dead” or “the place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek equivalent to sheol is hades, which is also a general reference to “the place of the dead.” The Greek word gehenna is used in the New Testament for “hell” and is derived from the Hebrew word hinnom. Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicated that sheol/hades is a temporary place where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection. The souls of the righteous, at death, go directly into the presence of God—the part of sheol called “heaven,” “paradise,” or “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23).The lake of fire, mentioned only in Revelation 19:20 and 20:10, 14-15, is the final hell, the place of eternal punishment for all unrepentant rebels, both angelic and human (Matthew 25:41). It is described as a place of burning sulfur, and those in it experience eternal, unspeakable agony of an unrelenting nature (Luke 16:24; Mark 9:45-46). Those who have rejected Christ and are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol have the lake of fire as their final destination. But those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life should have no fear of this terrible fate. By faith in Christ and His blood shed on the cross for our sins, we are destined to live eternally in the presence of God.
www.gotquestions.org/sheol-hades-hell.html
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2021 11:08:56 GMT -5
Psa_116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow. <<<< how can there be pain in the grave? we can go open any grave you want and there is nothing but bones in there and maybe a little hair...how can there be trouble in a grave? or sorrow do bones and hair cry? Pro_23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. <<<< how can you deliver the soul of someone dead from being put in a grave Isa_14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. <<< how can being dead in the grave cause the dead you to be stirred up? how can dead people(kings) in a grave be raised up? Eze_31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth. <<< how can dead person be comforted in the grave, yes a little confusing because who's "comforted" in hell Eze_32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword. <<< how does a dead person speak from the grave? Jon_2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.<<< i have never heard a dead person cry from the grave how can you be afflicted in the grave? all these things are activities last i knew dead people in graves don't do anything but lay there unless of course one believes in zombies...these are clear hints that hell is something else other than just a grave/sheol/gehenna It appears to me that you are now rolling back from your claim that the [Christian] concept [of hell] is all over the Old Testament and now claiming that the references to hell in the OT are merely hints that hell is something else other than just a grave/sheol. I would suggest that based on what biblical scholars say there is no basis for claiming they are even hints at all. Starting with your references in the Psalms, here is what the eminent biblical scholar Bart Ehrman, Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies, says about the references to hell in Psalms [see source 1 below] “passages in the Book of Psalms that talk about Sheol, or Sheol. It's a word that gets mistranslated into English. Sometimes Sheol is translated by the word hell, and it absolutely is not what people think of as hell.”
“The Bible does talk about this place Sheol, especially in poetry, especially in Psalms. And it's probably not a place that people go to, per se. If you actually look at what the Psalms say about Sheol, they always equate it to the grave or to the pit.” [my emphasis]In relation to your reference to Proverbs here’s what W. Creighton Marlowe, Associate Professor of the Old Testament, writes (see source 2 below] “ That anyone would think [Hebrew word for Sheol] in this verse means "Hell" is utterly amazing and inexplicable.” (my emphasis] And here’s what he says in relation to your reference to Ezekiel 31 v16 “ The [Hebrew word for Sheol] of v. 16 is clearly the same as "the pit," which is the same as "death," which is equated in the context with a hole in the ground ("pit”) or the lower parts of the earth; i.e., the grave or realm of the dead.” (my emphasis] As regards all 31 references to “hell” in the KJV (which includes the others you provided) Marlowe says “ ‘ Hell’ occurs thirty-one times in the current editions of the KJV and nineteen times in the New King James Version (NKJV, 1982).1 It does not occur in modem, major English versions; e.g., in the USA, the New International Version (NN, 1978), New American Standard Version (NASB, 1960), New Revised Standard Version (NRSV, 1989), or New American Bible (NAB, 1970).” (my emphasis] He then goes on to talk about the New KJV which he says “ has eliminated thirteen of the thirty-one times "hell" appears in the KJV” and proves an evaluation of the 18 times it continues to use the word “hell” unlike the other modern versions referred to above. On this matter he concludes: “ None of the nineteen contexts (verses) where [Hebrew word for Sheol] is translated "hell" by the NKJV (eighteen of which have "hell" in the KJV also) is supportive of that translation. In each case the flow of argumentation and/or the poetic parallels proves that the author uses [Hebrew word for Sheol] for the concept of the grave or death.” (my emphasis] It is clear therefore based on those who are qualified to speak on the biblical texts that your understanding of “hell” in the OT is a misunderstanding. But of course the christian fundamentalist cannot afford to accept a different interpretation of hell from the Christian one as to do so risks removing the very thing that people are threatened by and which the Christian God is designed to save them from. Without the threat of hell not only is the need to pay any attention to the Christian God seriously diminished but the need for the Christian God at all is severely diminished. However for those interested in truth (rather than simply having their misplaced beliefs confirmed) these things matter and I would therefore encourage all non fundamentalist believers to read the two sources below. Remember extinguishing your belief in the imaginary place called hell can set you free. Matt10 Source 1 www.npr.org/2020/03/31/824479587/heaven-and-hell-are-not-what-jesus-preached-religion-scholar-says?t=1609573068030Source 2 place.asburyseminary.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.co.uk/&httpsredir=1&article=1194&context=asburyjournalI had two vacuum salesmen visit. The first one showed me the vacuum, went through the specs, did a demonstration, and compared his product to others in terms of efficiency, efficacy, price and total value. The second one didn't even bring the vacuum in. He just gave me the paperwork to sign and said, "if you buy my vacuum, your house will be spotless forever and all your cleaning troubles will be gone. If you don't buy my vacuum, you'll suffer in increasingly filthy and plague-ridden squalor for evermore." I signed the paperwork straightaway, eternally thankful for the second salesman, and bitterly regretting the time I wasted talking to the first.
|
|
|
Post by matisse on Jan 2, 2021 11:19:26 GMT -5
Showing more of the fruits you are bearing @wally ! longsuffering covers a lot of things... Where is the longsuffering?
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Jan 2, 2021 11:38:55 GMT -5
It appears to me that you are now rolling back from your claim that the [Christian] concept [of hell] is all over the Old Testament and now claiming that the references to hell in the OT are merely hints that hell is something else other than just a grave/sheol. I would suggest that based on what biblical scholars say there is no basis for claiming they are even hints at all. Starting with your references in the Psalms, here is what the eminent biblical scholar Bart Ehrman, Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies, says about the references to hell in Psalms [see source 1 below] “passages in the Book of Psalms that talk about Sheol, or Sheol. It's a word that gets mistranslated into English. Sometimes Sheol is translated by the word hell, and it absolutely is not what people think of as hell.”
“The Bible does talk about this place Sheol, especially in poetry, especially in Psalms. And it's probably not a place that people go to, per se. If you actually look at what the Psalms say about Sheol, they always equate it to the grave or to the pit.” [my emphasis]In relation to your reference to Proverbs here’s what W. Creighton Marlowe, Associate Professor of the Old Testament, writes (see source 2 below] “ That anyone would think [Hebrew word for Sheol] in this verse means "Hell" is utterly amazing and inexplicable.” (my emphasis] And here’s what he says in relation to your reference to Ezekiel 31 v16 “ The [Hebrew word for Sheol] of v. 16 is clearly the same as "the pit," which is the same as "death," which is equated in the context with a hole in the ground ("pit”) or the lower parts of the earth; i.e., the grave or realm of the dead.” (my emphasis] As regards all 31 references to “hell” in the KJV (which includes the others you provided) Marlowe says “ ‘ Hell’ occurs thirty-one times in the current editions of the KJV and nineteen times in the New King James Version (NKJV, 1982).1 It does not occur in modem, major English versions; e.g., in the USA, the New International Version (NN, 1978), New American Standard Version (NASB, 1960), New Revised Standard Version (NRSV, 1989), or New American Bible (NAB, 1970).” (my emphasis] He then goes on to talk about the New KJV which he says “ has eliminated thirteen of the thirty-one times "hell" appears in the KJV” and proves an evaluation of the 18 times it continues to use the word “hell” unlike the other modern versions referred to above. On this matter he concludes: “ None of the nineteen contexts (verses) where [Hebrew word for Sheol] is translated "hell" by the NKJV (eighteen of which have "hell" in the KJV also) is supportive of that translation. In each case the flow of argumentation and/or the poetic parallels proves that the author uses [Hebrew word for Sheol] for the concept of the grave or death.” (my emphasis] It is clear therefore based on those who are qualified to speak on the biblical texts that your understanding of “hell” in the OT is a misunderstanding. But of course the christian fundamentalist cannot afford to accept a different interpretation of hell from the Christian one as to do so risks removing the very thing that people are threatened by and which the Christian God is designed to save them from. Without the threat of hell not only is the need to pay any attention to the Christian God seriously diminished but the need for the Christian God at all is severely diminished. However for those interested in truth (rather than simply having their misplaced beliefs confirmed) these things matter and I would therefore encourage all non fundamentalist believers to read the two sources below. Remember extinguishing your belief in the imaginary place called hell can set you free. Matt10 Source 1 www.npr.org/2020/03/31/824479587/heaven-and-hell-are-not-what-jesus-preached-religion-scholar-says?t=1609573068030Source 2 place.asburyseminary.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.co.uk/&httpsredir=1&article=1194&context=asburyjournalI had two vacuum salesmen visit. The first one showed me the vacuum, went through the specs, did a demonstration, and compared his product to others in terms of efficiency, efficacy, price and total value. The second one didn't even bring the vacuum in. He just gave me the paperwork to sign and said, "if you buy my vacuum, your house will be spotless forever and all your cleaning troubles will be gone. If you don't buy my vacuum, you'll suffer in increasingly filthy and plague-ridden squalor for evermore." I signed the paperwork straightaway, eternally thankful for the second salesman, and bitterly regretting the time I wasted talking to the first. Let the readers decide which sale men they want to believe.... Wally/Nathan or Matthew10/Ipse..
|
|
|
Post by openingact34 on Jan 2, 2021 12:37:39 GMT -5
That is a rather pathetic article. It reads a lot like a 12 year old who consults an encyclopedia blurb and then decides they have enough material to write a "research paper". Notice that the author uses as her "expert" a retired psychology professor from Houston Community College. Apparently it was too much bother to find a qualified professor of history or religious studies at an university. Blaming Tertullian for Hell is quite laughable. He was born around 160 AD. The Apocalypse of Peter, which describes Hell in great detail dates from 100-150 AD. So clearly this doctrine was in wide circulation among early Christians, and with good reason! It is what Jesus taught! 21 And I saw also another place over against that one, very squalid; and it was a place of punishment, and they that were punished and the angels that punished them had their raiment dark, according to the air of the place. 22 And some there were there hanging by their tongues; and these were they that blasphemed the way of righteousness, and under them was laid fire flaming and tormenting them. 23 And there was a great lake full of flaming mire, wherein were certain men that turned away from righteousness; and angels, tormentors, were set over them. 24 And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair above that mire which boiled up; and these were they that adorned themselves for adultery. And the men that were joined with them in the defilement of adultery were hanging by their feet, and had their heads hidden in the mire, and said: We believed not that we should come unto this place. 25 And I saw the murderers and them that were consenting to them cast into a strait place full of evil, creeping things, and smitten by those beasts, and so turning themselves about in that torment. And upon them were set worms like clouds of darkness. And the souls of them that were murdered stood and looked upon the torment of those murderers and said: O God, righteous is thy judgement. 26 And hard by that place I saw another strait place wherein the discharge and the stench of them that were in torment ran down, and there was as it were a lake there. And there sat women up to their necks in that liquor, and over against them many children which were born out of due time sat crying: and from them went forth rays of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were they that conceived out of wedlock (?) and caused abortion. 27 And other men and women were being burned up to their middle and cast down in a dark place and scourged by evil spirits, and having their entrails devoured by worms that rested not. And these were they that had persecuted the righteous and delivered them up. 28 And near to them again were women and men gnawing their lips and in torment, and having iron heated in the fire set against their eyes. And these were they that did blaspheme and speak evil of the way of righteousness. 29 And over against these were yet others, men and women, gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths. And these were the false witnesses. 30 And in another place were gravel-stones sharper than swords or any spit, heated with fire, and men and women clad in filthy rags rolled upon them in torment. And these were they that were rich and trusted in their riches, and had no pity upon orphans and widows but neglected the commandments of God. 31 And in another great lake full of foul matter (pus) and blood and boiling mire stood men and women up to their knees And these were they that lent money and demanded usury upon usury. 32 And other men and women being cast down from a great rock (precipice) fell (came) to the bottom, and again were driven by them that were set over them, to go up upon the rock, and thence were cast down to the bottom and had no rest from this torment. And these were they that did defile their bodies behaving as women: and the women that were with them were they that lay with one another as a man with a woman. 33 And beside that rock was a place full of much fire, and there stood men which with their own hands had made images for themselves instead of God, [And beside them other men and women] having rods of fire and smiting one another and never resting from this manner of torment.... 34 And yet others near unto them, men and women, burning and turning themselves about and roasted as in a pan. And these were they that forsook the way of God. Hell is central to Christian doctrine. You don't see street preachers holding up signs talking about love do you? Of course not. God is directing them to threaten people with eternal torture. Similarly, what do the workers preach when they are trying to get people to profess? A bunch of loving nonsense? Of course not. They try to scare and intimidate people with an eternity of unending tormet. Good to see you actually argue the language case they made. And then you use apocalyptic literature which you obviously do not understand what it was written for. I have not researched the Apocalypse of Peter, but I have of Revelation and if you get your head around the Reign of Nero and Domitian Revelation makes perfect sense. So my question would be to you, what is Peter describing, I assume you've looked?. youtu.be/L0-tFahPVIUyoutu.be/sE2oaGa2fJUIm all for personal opinion, but if your going to have one at least show some reasoning why you think the language does show eternal torture and why the author was wrong and why you think the Apocalypse of Peter supports your view on the Authors mistaken understanding of the language. The 12yr old jibe was lame in this light. The meaning is plain. Verse after verse about eternal torture of sinners in gory detail. Not figurative, but literal. Trying to interpret it otherwise is quite absurd. One especially interesting point is the description of the angels. "Angels that punished them had their raiment dark". "Angels, tormentors, were set over them". We see the same description of Jesus and the angels as torturers in the Revelation of John "They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb." Many people are confused and think that the angels are loving protectors. But scripture shows them to be God's even more evil version of the SS death squads in the concentration camps. Their function is to torture human beings for all eternity. Much of what Jesus taught is not on record. But the writings of early Christians like Peter shows an embrace of the eternal torture monster. And for 2000 years, faithful Christians who have had God working in their hearts have embraced the same doctrine of eternal torture. It is incredibly arrogant to arrive more than two millennia late on the scene and declare that all those generations of believers were wrong, and modern-day Chuck has all the answers.
|
|
|
Post by Annan on Jan 2, 2021 13:31:00 GMT -5
Let the readers decide which sale men they want to believe.... Wally/Nathan or Matthew10/Ipse.. Matt10/Ipse...
|
|