RH
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Post by RH on Jul 25, 2006 1:22:43 GMT -5
I met a girl and after dating for a while I discovered that she was married before but is now divorced. I do not know what to do or I should say I feel stuck. I love this women very much. However I am aware that Jesus said that "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives but from the beginning it was not so" and in the verses preceding this it says "therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."Matt 19 vs 6 and 8 I know that God feels marriage is a very important vow and one that is not to be taken lightly. That being said I have struggled very much to tell a women that I love that she is to be held accountable for a mistake she made when she was quite young and therefore we can't be together because I don't want to committ adultry. Am I correct in my understanding or am I way off base....scripture please. Thanks
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2006 1:33:04 GMT -5
rh - that's an awfully hard one. You asked for scripture, but you have already provided it. What church are you in? Most these days are quite liberal towards divorce.
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sm
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Post by sm on Jul 25, 2006 1:50:55 GMT -5
First off, The definition of adultery is... noun: extramarital sex that willfully and maliciously interferes with marriage relations
She is divorced, therefore, there is no marriage, and because there is no marriage, You wouldn't be committing adultery.
Second of all, It really has alot to do with what church you belong too, as to what your beliefs are going to be regarding this matter. a 2x2...The result of a marriage under these circumstances would end up that either you could not take part in meetings until her first husband passed away, OR...if you lived seperate you could take part in meetings, which kind of goes against the whole idea of getting married.
JW's would tell you, remarriage is Ok under these circumstances... The reason for the divorce was that her husband cheated on her, and she was an innocent party, then it would be ok to get married too her.
I agree with Bert in that most Christian churches today are liberal when it comes to divorce.
Myself having personally witnessed a few different examples, a divorced lady in the two by two church is now condemned to being single for the rest of her life, and the loneliness is taking a HUGE toll on her mental state, she is in fact, losing her mind.
a couple that married after at least one, if not both had previously been married, then divorced.. has spent many years living apart so they are able to take part. You could see it in his face every sunday....he missed his wife terribly.
It's not an easy call on your part... I wouldn't tell her if i were you that she's to be held accountable for a mistake she made when she was young, that's not your place to say IMO, and is rather judgemental, weather you intend it to sound that way or not, it does.
I don't believe a Loving God, wants the children he loves to live lonely miserable lives...
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 25, 2006 6:41:28 GMT -5
rh - I feel for you. Please go to this website and read the article by Callison listed at the top regarding divorce & remarriage. Also, order Ralph Woodrow's book "Divorce & Remarriage." listed on that website. These things will help you get peace. Neither article/book are very long, and are extremely insightful. home.earthlink.net/~truth/sec8-4Marriage.html
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Post by Wait on Jul 25, 2006 7:21:52 GMT -5
rh - that's an awfully hard one. You asked for scripture, but you have already provided it. What church are you in? Most these days are quite liberal towards divorce. This has nothing to do with the church you belong to. Either it is OK with God or it is not. Or you could do as Henry did in England and just form a new church that will allow you to do as you wish.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2006 7:41:55 GMT -5
To Wait - I accept your point. But even Jesus was not totally specific on the point of remarriage because he gave the caveat of "fornication."
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Post by jxr on Jul 25, 2006 7:49:05 GMT -5
To Wait - I accept your point. But even Jesus was not totally specific on the point of remarriage because he gave the caveat of "fornication." Is that right? [/i] [11] He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. [12] And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."[/quote]
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2006 8:05:59 GMT -5
Hi jxr - hate to get into cut and past text wars, but what I referred to is the verse where Jesus said "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth...
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Post by jxr on Jul 25, 2006 8:10:03 GMT -5
So are you saying Jesus was not specific, or the record of Jesus' instruction is not accurate?
I would have thought that the record in Mark is pretty unambiguous. Would you think it right to take liberty based on one gospel, where no such liberty is mentioned in another?
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Post by Bert not logged on on Jul 25, 2006 9:07:13 GMT -5
Hi jxr (what does that stand for?) My take on this, such as it is: if some issue or story is referred to twice, and one version includes something the other doesn't, then I would suppose there is less chance that something simply wasn't recorded, rather than something mischieviously added.
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RH
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Post by RH on Jul 25, 2006 10:40:19 GMT -5
It's not an easy call on your part... I wouldn't tell her if i were you that she's to be held accountable for a mistake she made when she was young, that's not your place to say IMO, and is rather judgemental, weather you intend it to sound that way or not, it does.
I don't believe a Loving God, wants the children he loves to live lonely miserable lives...
Hi SM and thanks to all for your responses. I have to agree with you, it makes me sound judgemental and I certainly don't want to sound or even feel that way. I am also of agreement that a Loving God certainly doesn't want His children being miserable. I just want to make the correct decision and so I need to read and try to understand the scriptures better. I guess I feel it doesn't really matter the church you go to, some might be more liberal on this but really that is of no importance. What is important is God and what does He think. Anyways thanks to all who have posted and who will post. Also thanks to whoever posted the link, I will read that as well.
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Post by las logged out on Jul 25, 2006 10:45:02 GMT -5
I met a girl and after dating for a while I discovered that she was married before but is now divorced. I do not know what to do or I should say I feel stuck. I love this women very much. However I am aware that Jesus said that "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives but from the beginning it was not so" and in the verses preceding this it says "therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."Matt 19 vs 6 and 8 I know that God feels marriage is a very important vow and one that is not to be taken lightly. That being said I have struggled very much to tell a women that I love that she is to be held accountable for a mistake she made when she was quite young and therefore we can't be together because I don't want to committ adultry. Am I correct in my understanding or am I way off base....scripture please. Thanks Well it looks like you see more then your boy friend for now
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chip
New Member
Read the Secret Sect book by Doug and Helen Parker
Posts: 12
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Post by chip on Jul 25, 2006 10:47:54 GMT -5
But you need to read the good book too [the secret sect]
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Post by las logged out on Jul 25, 2006 12:22:55 GMT -5
But you need to read the good book too [the secret sect] Chip is learning he is helping out some
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Post by lloydswanson on Jul 25, 2006 12:24:59 GMT -5
Yes chip is a gret help in getting them see the sect they are in
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Post by Remarried on Jul 25, 2006 12:26:34 GMT -5
I met a girl and after dating for a while I discovered that she was married before but is now divorced. I do not know what to do or I should say I feel stuck. The only way to come to terms with this issue is to research different interpretations (pro's & con's) and then pray and recieve God's answer by the peace in your heart. I went through the same agony a few years ago and found these writings. IMO, they are well worth reading. www.users.qwest.net/~zadok1/divorce2.htmlwww.users.qwest.net/~zadok1/divorce.htmHappily Remarried
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Post by bri on Jul 25, 2006 12:33:52 GMT -5
a 2x2...The result of a marriage under these circumstances would end up that either you could not take part in meetings until her first husband passed away, OR...if you lived seperate you could take part in meetings, which kind of goes against the whole idea of getting married. Oddly enough, this isn't entirely true for the 2x2's everywhere. On the west coast this is the tactic they take. In Iowa, there are couples in remarriage situtaions that now have meeting in their home. There are also a number of divorced and remarried couples that go to meeting here and take part in all parts of the fellowship meeting. If you go to Montana, the workers aren't even allowed to take money or stay in a home where they are divorced and remarried. Very controversial!
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dea
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Post by dea on Jul 25, 2006 13:27:11 GMT -5
I had always been taught that once you marry someone you are married in God's eyes until one partner dies, it doesn't matter if you get a divorce by our laws.
As far as the loneliness...
While lack of physical intimatacy can be hard, having good friends can help ease the loneliness. If a person is lonely then there are probably other issues going on.
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Post by Remarried on Jul 25, 2006 13:46:08 GMT -5
I had always been taught that once you marry someone you are married in God's eyes until one partner dies, it doesn't matter if you get a divorce by our laws. I would find out what others have to say before you go with what you've been taught. I was taught the same thing but until I was brought to the place where I had to explore the subject matter more indepth and through prayer, God brought me to peace. If we only go by what we've been taught, how do we know it's really truth?
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sm
Junior Member
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Post by sm on Jul 25, 2006 14:54:52 GMT -5
a 2x2...The result of a marriage under these circumstances would end up that either you could not take part in meetings until her first husband passed away, OR...if you lived seperate you could take part in meetings, which kind of goes against the whole idea of getting married. Oddly enough, this isn't entirely true for the 2x2's everywhere. On the west coast this is the tactic they take. In Iowa, there are couples in remarriage situtaions that now have meeting in their home. There are also a number of divorced and remarried couples that go to meeting here and take part in all parts of the fellowship meeting. If you go to Montana, the workers aren't even allowed to take money or stay in a home where they are divorced and remarried. Very controversial! Even *I'm* shocked at this one, Are you serious? So up here, a man, who loves his wife soo much, that they had to move an entire province apart to stay away from each other , so wouldn't be able to see each other on a regular basis. because they were told that's what you have to do to take part in meeting, While others in his same religion, in different parts of the world, in the same or close to the same circumstances are together, and some with meeting in their home? That makes me sick.
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Post by Sylvestra on Jul 25, 2006 15:06:32 GMT -5
Hi jxr - hate to get into cut and past text wars, but what I referred to is the verse where Jesus said "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth... So I see that you do not yet understand the difference between "putting away" and "divorce". Putting away is separating and NOT divorcing! With a proper bill of divorce, one can remarry with God's blessing. This is the same way that God divorced the house of Israel! Best regards, Edy
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Post by a believer on Jul 25, 2006 15:52:58 GMT -5
Hi jxr - hate to get into cut and past text wars, but what I referred to is the verse where Jesus said "And I say unto you, the Bible is clear that remarriage is ok if the other party committed fornication or adultery. That also means if that poerson gets into another relationship then they have commtted adultery and the other party is free. "Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth..." If putting away means that the person can remarry then putting away must be the same as divorce as one can only remarry if they are divorced by our laws. Divorce means to cut, to sever the relationship. Or else why would God say divorce if he did not mean that the person was free to marry another?
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Post by bri on Jul 25, 2006 19:33:03 GMT -5
Even *I'm* shocked at this one, Are you serious? So up here, a man, who loves his wife soo much, that they had to move an entire province apart to stay away from each other , so wouldn't be able to see each other on a regular basis. because they were told that's what you have to do to take part in meeting, While others in his same religion, in different parts of the world, in the same or close to the same circumstances are together, and some with meeting in their home? That makes me sick. I know... very bizarre. I'm from the West Coast and when I moved out here it's a different set of rules (in more then just this subject).
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Post by Rob O on Jul 25, 2006 19:52:11 GMT -5
Hello rh, I highly recommend this book by David Instone-Brewer. www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Brewer/PPages/DRC/Index.htmThis is the scaled-down version. He has a longer version which includes the research. I am posting here a summary of his book and research. --------------------------------------------------- Changes in Legal LanguageWhen first century Jewish or Graeco-Roman citizens read or heard the words of Jesus and Paul they had in their minds many concepts, legal terms and presuppositions which we do not share. We have to understand their mindset in order to understand the text as they would. This also gives us the best possible chance of understanding what the authors meant to convey by their words, on the assumption that their primary audience were their contemporaries and not 21st century readers. What makes divorce so susceptible to misunderstanding is changes in law and legal terminology. Most people understand the legal terms ‘maintenance payments’ and ‘decree absolute’, but they have forgotten what a ‘co-respondant’ is. This legal term for a third party in a case of adultery was part of everyday language a few decades ago when adultery was still tried in court and when newspapers reported the details of famous trials on the front pages. Perhaps in a few decades the law will change and ‘maintenance payments’ will sound to non-lawyers like something relating to house repairs. Jewish legal divorce terminology changed much more dramatically in the middle of the first century, and this resulted in a complete misunderstanding of Jesus’ teaching as early as the second century. The new ‘Any Cause’ divorceA few decades before Jesus’ ministry a new form of divorce called ‘Any Cause’ was introduced by lawyers of the Hillelite party of Pharisees. They derived it from the phrase in Deuteronomy 24.1 where divorce is allowed for “a cause of indecency”. The term ‘indecency’ (literally ‘nakedness’) was understood by all rabbis to refer to adultery, but the Hillelites said that this still left the term “a cause” (literally ‘a thing’). They said that this word indicated a separate type of divorce which was based on ‘a cause’ which could be any cause from a burnt meal to wrinkly skin. They called this the ‘Any Cause’ divorce and, because it could be based on anything, there was no need to present any proof in court— the man simply had to hand over a divorce certificate and the marriage was over. Other rabbis (such as the rival party of Shammaite Pharisees) said that the phrase ‘a matter of indecency’ did not refer to two types of divorce (adultery and ‘Any Cause’) because the phrase as a whole means ‘nothing else than indecency’. Most of the people, however, preferred the Hillelite interpretation because it provided easy divorces and no embarrassing court appearances. Philo lists ‘Any Cause’ as the only basis for Jewish divorce, and Josephus names it as the type of divorce which he used. By the middle of the first century there is no mention of any other type of divorce in Judaism, and after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, when Jewish law became centralised and much more uniform, it was the only type of divorce available. Four Biblical Grounds for DivorceBefore the ‘Any Cause’ divorce became popular, Judaism had four grounds for divorce based on the Old Testament: adultery (based on Dt.24.1) and neglect of food, clothing or love (based on Ex.21.10f). These latter three grounds were recognised by all factions within Judaism and allowed divorce by women as well as men. They were based on the Mosaic law that a slave-wife could be free of her marriage if her husband neglected her, and the rabbis assumed that if an ex-slave had these rights then so did a neglected free wife or a neglected husband. The rabbis carefully defined how much money the man had to provide the woman for buying food and clothing, and how much work the woman had to do in producing them. The rabbis even laid down how often couples had to take part in physical acts of love which varied according to the occupation of the man — they allowed longer periods of abstinence for traders (who went on business trips) and for scholars (i.e. themselves). In practice they divided these three grounds into two, which we might call emotional support and material support, and Paul was presumably alluding to them (and to Ex.21.10f) when he reminded the Corinthians that they owed their spouses both physical love (1Cor.7.3-5) and material support (1Cor.7.33-34). The rabbis specified different courses of action when these two types of neglect occurred, both of which led eventually to divorce if the erring partner did not change their ways. They did not specify abuse as a ground for divorce because this would be regarded as the most severe form of neglect. These grounds were listed in early Jewish marriage certificates where they formed the basis of marriage vows. Asking Jesus about ‘Any Cause’All these types of divorce fell into disuse a few decades before AD 70 because everyone chose to get divorced with the new and easy-to-use ‘Any Cause’ divorce. Although the concept of the three obligations of marriage continued to be expressed in the language of marriage certificates, the term ‘Any Cause divorce’ disappeared completely because even the lawyers referred to it simply as ‘divorce’. During Jesus’ ministry, the debate about the ‘Any Cause’ divorce was still raging, so they asked him his opinion: “Do you think it is lawful for a man to divorce his wife for ‘Any Cause’” (Mt.19.3). Jesus was more interested in talking about marriage than divorce, so he started by emphasising that marriage should be monogamous and lifelong (vv.4-6) and when they asked why Moses commanded divorce for adultery he said that Moses merely allowed it, and only in cases of stubborn unrepentance (‘hardheartedness’, vv.7-8). Eventually Jesus answered their question about the ‘Any Cause’ divorce by quoting the Shammaite slogan that the phrase ‘a cause of indecency’ means “nothing except indecency”. Jesus was not a Shammaite, because he disagreed with them in many other matters, but he said that their interpretation of the phrase “a cause of indecency” was correct, as would most modern interpreters of the text. Jesus rejected the ‘Any Cause’ divorce as a non-biblical invention, so that anyone who had divorced using this interpretation (which included almost every divorced person in Israel) had an invalid divorce. He emphasised this in a most dramatic way by saying that anyone who had remarried after such a divorce was now committing adultery, because their previous marriage had not yet ended. The abbreviation necessitated by writing this teaching in a Gospel makes it difficult for a 21st century reader to follow. Mark’s version (Mk.10.2-12) does not even include the Hillelite and Shammaite slogans, “for ‘Any Cause’” and “nothing except indecency”. A first century reader would mentally supply these phrases just as a modern reader supplies the phrase “alcoholic beverages” into the question “Is it lawful for a 16 year-old to drink?”. Luke’s version (Lk.16.18) is so dramatically abbreviated that it makes no sense unless we remember that virtually all divorces were for ‘Any Cause’, so that everyone who remarried could be said to be committing adultery. Matthew provided a fuller account because by the time he was writing the debate was already waning and people needed reminding about the issues. But even Matthew’s account is confusing for modern translators almost all of whom thought that Jesus was asked about “divorce for any cause” instead of the specific ‘Any Cause’ divorce. NT Grounds for DivorceWhich grounds for divorce did Jesus accept? He was never asked this question, and he does not tell us, though we know from his answer to the question about the ‘Any Cause’ divorce that he allowed divorce for adultery. In the absence of further evidence, we have to assume that he accepted all four Old Testament grounds for divorce, as did all other Jews. There are many aspects of Jesus’ teaching for which we have no record — e.g. he never affirmed monotheism or condemned rape— because there was no need to record everything which his audience already agreed with. When Jesus did disagree, he was not shy to say so. When he was asked about the ‘Any Cause’ divorce Jesus took the opportunity to point out several matters in which he disagreed with other Jews, including monogamy (all Jews except the Qumran sect allowed polygamy), optional divorce for adultery (which most Jews regarded as compulsory), and optional marriage (which all Jews regarded as compulsory). Fortunately Paul is not as silent as Jesus, because he has to remind his partly-gentile audience about the obligations within marriage, as mentioned above. Way ahead for the ChurchThe problem for the modern church, living in a climate of no-fault divorce, is how to re-introduce the teaching that divorce should only occur when there are specific biblical grounds for it. One way forward may be to re-emphasise the marriage vows of traditional Christian wedding services which retain references to all four biblical grounds for divorce — faithfulness and the three types of neglect. The marriage vows “to love honour and keep” are based on ancient Jewish vows as cited in Ephesians 5.28-29 where Christ “loves… nourishes and cherishes” or, more literally, “loves, feeds and keeps warm” his bride. The Old Testament spoke about marriage as a ‘contract’ and regarded the marriage vows as stipulations in that contract. If one partner broke their marriage vows the other was entitled, as with any business contract, to either declare the contract broken or to forgive a repentant partner. This gives the decision back to the wronged partner. We do not want to regard marriage merely in terms of contractual obligations, but wedding vows could be taught both as the foundations of marriage and as the only valid grounds for divorce. The biblical grounds for divorce would thereby regain their status as a focus for building and maintaining a marriage rather than just the means to its end.
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Post by spiderman on Jul 26, 2006 17:25:06 GMT -5
I had always been taught that once you marry someone you are married in God's eyes until one partner dies, it doesn't matter if you get a divorce by our laws. As far as the loneliness... While lack of physical intimatacy can be hard, having good friends can help ease the loneliness. If a person is lonely then there are probably other issues going on. This post actually makes me sick. Dea I'm sorry and I'm not attacking you, believe me, but you obviously have NO idea what you're talking about. So many people that have never experienced loneliness, physical or otherwise, quite often sound this way. FLIPPANT!. Please tread very lightly with this kind of attitude. Many people that read these sites are suffering deeply and callous attitudes like yours can really make people feel badly. It's not that they're tempted to agree with you, it's just knowing that seemingly intelligent people actually feel and talk the way you just did.
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Jul 26, 2006 17:30:56 GMT -5
I think it's something that should be prayed about on an individual basis. I think God allows for remarriage at time, and other times, he does not. It's something that is between you and God- and therefore, there is no verse, no comment, nothing that we can say to make the choice for you.
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sm
Junior Member
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Post by sm on Jul 26, 2006 17:52:03 GMT -5
I had always been taught that once you marry someone you are married in God's eyes until one partner dies, it doesn't matter if you get a divorce by our laws. As far as the loneliness... While lack of physical intimatacy can be hard, having good friends can help ease the loneliness. If a person is lonely then there are probably other issues going on. This post actually makes me sick. Dea I'm sorry and I'm not attacking you, believe me, but you obviously have NO idea what you're talking about. So many people that have never experienced loneliness, physical or otherwise, quite often sound this way. FLIPPANT!. Please tread very lightly with this kind of attitude. Many people that read these sites are suffering deeply and callous attitudes like yours can really make people feel badly. It's not that they're tempted to agree with you, it's just knowing that seemingly intelligent people actually feel and talk the way you just did. Great post spiderman.
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Post by just me on Jul 26, 2006 17:52:50 GMT -5
As far as the loneliness... While lack of physical intimatacy can be hard, having good friends can help ease the loneliness. If a person is lonely then there are probably other issues going on. This has got to be one of the MOST REDICULOUS things I have seen in a LONG time. It would seem you have NEVER been truly lonely!!!!!!! On the topic at hand: DUDE, you are already condeming this gal for "a mistake SHE made when younger", HOW the heck do you know it was HER mistake? ?? Was the mistake getting married to a jerk who cheated on her, was the mistake getting married before SHE was really ready, was the mistake getting DIVORCED? YOU have ALREADY judged her without all the facts ( as per YOUR post anyway), what gives you the right to judge ANYONE? GOD allowed provisions for divorce, BECAUSE he KNEW we would mess up, HE knew WE would marry too young, HE knew WE would marry the WRONG person. Jesus is also very clear about something else that many of you seem to be forgetting, Jesus DID NOT COME to add to or CHANGE the law. Jesus was simply restating GOD's original plan, NOT saying the divorce is a sin, afterall I CHALLANGE anyone to find a DIRECT command that says divorce is a sin, or even sinful behavior.
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