|
Post by nathan on Dec 3, 2020 17:46:30 GMT -5
*** I gave you the time line and many names and titles of the Serpent is KNOWN through the centuries... The great Dragon/ Draco come from the star system, Lucifer, Satan and the devil... Same guy with many different names and titles through the centuries. I have a long list of Lucifer names. Sure you have, but you have to blatantly ignore history to make the jump. That is ignorant. ** No jump! If you know your Bible you can read and see Satan has been call by many names through the centuries. Satan has been around for millions, billions of yrs or longer.
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Dec 3, 2020 18:06:58 GMT -5
Sure you have, but you have to blatantly ignore history to make the jump. That is ignorant. ** No jump! If you know your Bible you can read and see Satan has been call by many names through the centuries. Satan has been around for millions, billions of yrs or longer. Lucifer/Satan myth never existed until the 5th century Nathan. The original context is a "Man", not a "Angel" but a Man, most likely Nebuchadnezzar, has fallen from Heaven. And we read in Daniel 4:22 that Nebuchadnezzar's greatness reached Heaven. Obviously not literal. So no connection at all with Satan or angels falling literally from Heaven, it smashes you idea about a literal heaven in venus, it's all made up by religion and youve swallowed it.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Dec 3, 2020 18:27:41 GMT -5
** No jump! If you know your Bible you can read and see Satan has been call by many names through the centuries. Satan has been around for millions, billions of yrs or longer. Lucifer/Satan myth never existed until the 5th century Nathan. The original context is a "Man", not a "Angel" but a Man, most likely Nebuchadnezzar, has fallen from Heaven. And we read in Daniel 4:22 that Nebuchadnezzar's greatness reached Heaven. Obviously not literal. So no connection at all with Satan or angels falling literally from Heaven, it smashes you idea about a literal heaven in venus, it's all made up by religion and youve swallowed it. *** You are crazy! Satan existed in the garden of Eden 6000 yrs ago. Satan existed in the days of Job. Satan existed in the days of Jesus. How can you say Satan didn't exist until 5th century? In Hebrews chapter 1 it tells us Christ CREATED all of the angels in heaven. The angels were created long before he created Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden on earth. Jesus, all of the angels are from heaven/Venus. Jesus said I came down from heaven. Jesus said in John 14 I go back to heaven to prepare a place for you, where I am there you will be with me also.
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Dec 3, 2020 18:52:05 GMT -5
Lucifer/Satan myth never existed until the 5th century Nathan. The original context is a "Man", not a "Angel" but a Man, most likely Nebuchadnezzar, has fallen from Heaven. And we read in Daniel 4:22 that Nebuchadnezzar's greatness reached Heaven. Obviously not literal. So no connection at all with Satan or angels falling literally from Heaven, it smashes you idea about a literal heaven in venus, it's all made up by religion and youve swallowed it. *** You are crazy! Satan existed in the garden of Eden 6000 yrs ago. Satan existed in the days of Job. Satan existed in the days of Jesus. How can you say Satan didn't exist until 5th century? In Hebrews chapter 1 it tells us Christ CREATED all of the angels in heaven. The angels were created long before he created Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden on earth. Jesus, all of the angels are from heaven/Venus. Jesus said I came down from heaven. Jesus said in John 14 I go back to heaven to prepare a place for you, where I am there you will be with me also. You are misunderstanding me. The Satan is Lucifer myth appeared long after Christ. Arguably the 5th century. Thats it. Satan like God are not existent "things", never were, never will be. So to boldy claim Satan existed in the garden in a physical sense is blatant ignorance of Hebrew, culture, concepts and language. You have to do mental gymnastics to make the leap just like you are with Satan/Lucifer. The fall of Lucifer was in reference to a "Man", Not a "Angel", it is not a arguable point. I have also just shown that Heaven in the context of this discussion is not a literal place. A "Man" went there, and then "Man" fell from there, not a "Angel". It is a present reality not a place somewhere else like the physical Venus. Stop being ignorant of the Hebrew mindset of the day. Satan is true but does not exist like religion would have you believe. The nature of Satan is on full display when one has the selfish ambition to go to magical heaven when they die and no one will get in their way or stop them. That is Satan.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Dec 3, 2020 19:16:13 GMT -5
*** You are crazy! Satan existed in the garden of Eden 6000 yrs ago. Satan existed in the days of Job. Satan existed in the days of Jesus. How can you say Satan didn't exist until 5th century? In Hebrews chapter 1 it tells us Christ CREATED all of the angels in heaven. The angels were created long before he created Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden on earth. Jesus, all of the angels are from heaven/Venus. Jesus said I came down from heaven. Jesus said in John 14 I go back to heaven to prepare a place for you, where I am there you will be with me also. You are misunderstanding me. The Satan is Lucifer myth appeared long after Christ. Arguably the 5th century. Thats it. Satan like God are not existent "things", never were, never will be. So to boldy claim Satan existed in the garden in a physical sense is blatant ignorance of Hebrew, culture, concepts and language. You have to do mental gymnastics to make the leap just like you are with Satan/Lucifer. The fall of Lucifer was in reference to a "Man", Not a "Angel", it is not a arguable point. I have also just shown that Heaven in the context of this discussion is not a literal place. A "Man" went there, and then "Man" fell from there, not a "Angel". It is a present reality not a place somewhere else like the physical Venus. Stop being ignorant of the Hebrew mindset of the day. Satan is true but does not exist like religion would have you believe. The nature of Satan is on full display when one has the selfish ambition to go to magical heaven when they die and no one will get in their way or stop them. That is Satan. ** Your thinking and belief are contradicting to the Scriptures about Satan. Jesus and the apostles warn us about Satan's spirit roaming around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour/their souls. Christ/God is a Spirit. In the Old Testament Christ/Spirit took on human form/body and as an Angel of God/ Messenger from God the Father. Satan/Lucifer is a spirit and he too can shape shifting into an angel of light, a man or any animal/Serpent or Dragon.
|
|
|
Post by intelchips on Dec 3, 2020 19:37:46 GMT -5
Why is it many on this forum fail to acknowledge that the early tribes of Jews had many Gods and no concept of a Devil? A few of us have offered facts to acknowledge this system of belief. As stated before there was no Devil until the Jews came home from exile. It is only shortly before the exile that some Jewish priests stated to think about a single God but had not yet spread the idea. This can be demonstrated by one of the most important differences between Jewish monotheism and Zoroastrian monotheism is that Jews recognize the one God as the source of both good and evil, light and darkness, while Zoroastrians, during all the phases of their long theological history, think of God only as the source of Good, with Evil as a separate principle. There is a famous passage in Second Isaiah, composed during or after the Exile, which is sometimes cited as a Jewish rebuke to the Zoroastrian idea of a dualistic God: "I am YHVH, unrivalled: I form the light and create the dark. I make good fortune and create calamity, it is I, YHVH, who do all this." (Isaiah 45:7) This passage, which is a major source for Jewish speculation on the source of good and evil in the world, denies the Zoroastrian idea of a God who is the source only of "good" and favorable things. What exile? The Persian exile
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Dec 3, 2020 19:45:03 GMT -5
You are misunderstanding me. The Satan is Lucifer myth appeared long after Christ. Arguably the 5th century. Thats it. Satan like God are not existent "things", never were, never will be. So to boldy claim Satan existed in the garden in a physical sense is blatant ignorance of Hebrew, culture, concepts and language. You have to do mental gymnastics to make the leap just like you are with Satan/Lucifer. The fall of Lucifer was in reference to a "Man", Not a "Angel", it is not a arguable point. I have also just shown that Heaven in the context of this discussion is not a literal place. A "Man" went there, and then "Man" fell from there, not a "Angel". It is a present reality not a place somewhere else like the physical Venus. Stop being ignorant of the Hebrew mindset of the day. Satan is true but does not exist like religion would have you believe. The nature of Satan is on full display when one has the selfish ambition to go to magical heaven when they die and no one will get in their way or stop them. That is Satan. ** Your thinking and belief are contradicting to the Scriptures about Satan. Jesus and the apostles warn us about Satan's spirit roaming around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour/their souls. Christ/God is a Spirit. In the Old Testament Christ/Spirit took on human form/body and as an Angel of God/ Messenger from God the Father. Satan/Lucifer is a spirit and he too can shape shifting into an angel of light, a man or any animal/Serpent or Dragon. Im not contradicting anything Nathan, its talking about a "Man", you are blatantly ignoring this and insert Angel in your mind instead. Who's contradicting?. "Man" not "Angel" "Man" went to Heaven and then fell from Heaven. The rich man in Hell still wanted Lazarus to serve him who was in Heaven. Hell and Heaven were in the same room. Not Venus and in the bowels of the earth. Then you go into a whole lot of religious drivel with a whole lot of God Jesus Spirit Bible talk with zero foundation to it outside of 2x2ism and mainly Roman Catholicism. Basically religion. Man not Angel!. Stop ignoring Importamt things that affect a understanding of a whole miriad of other things. If Lucifer is Just a normal Man like you and me it wrecks your whole idea of Satan. I can see you now going lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala with your fingers in your ears. Man not Angel. Man not Angel. Very important. Man not Angel. Man!. Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: “Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?” - Isaiah 14:16-17 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah14:16-17&version=NIV
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Dec 3, 2020 20:32:09 GMT -5
** Your thinking and belief are contradicting to the Scriptures about Satan. Jesus and the apostles warn us about Satan's spirit roaming around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour/their souls. Christ/God is a Spirit. In the Old Testament Christ/Spirit took on human form/body and as an Angel of God/ Messenger from God the Father. Satan/Lucifer is a spirit and he too can shape shifting into an angel of light, a man or any animal/Serpent or Dragon. Im not contradicting anything Nathan, its talking about a "Man", you are blatantly ignoring this and insert Angel in your mind instead. Who's contradicting?. "Man" not "Angel" "Man" went to Heaven and then fell from Heaven. The rich man in Hell still wanted Lazarus to serve him who was in Heaven. Hell and Heaven were in the same room. Not Venus and in the bowels of the earth. Then you go into a whole lot of religious drivel with a whole lot of God Jesus Spirit Bible talk with zero foundation to it outside of 2x2ism and mainly Roman Catholicism. Basically religion. Man not Angel!. Stop ignoring Importamt things that affect a understanding of a whole miriad of other things. If Lucifer is Just a normal Man like you and me it wrecks your whole idea of Satan. I can see you now going lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala with your fingers in your ears. Man not Angel. Man not Angel. Very important. Man not Angel. Man!. Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: “Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?” - Isaiah 14:16-17 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah14:16-17&version=NIVlike said you got things all screwed up! Just like with Satan/Lucifer is a man just like me and you. Satan/Lucifer is one of the highest angels of God in heaven. He is ONE kingdom above you and me the humans kingdom. God, Christ and Holy Spirit is ONE kingdom ABOVE Satan and all of the angels in heaven.
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Dec 3, 2020 20:42:33 GMT -5
There is no connection between Satan and Lucifer. Isiah is talking about a mortal Man, most likely Nebuchadnezzar therefore indirectly referred to as the morning star. Lucifer is a title attributed to a man, that's it, Lucifer was inserted into scriptures in the 5th century, it was never used for Satan in any scriptures ever. No duel meaning at all. There is nothing scriptural at all linking Satan, morning star, Lucifer, Angel and falling. Religion made it up. Do you have an opinion why this is so hard to understand for many of the members? We often hear that God wrote the Bible and you need his spirt to understand it. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17) 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. But here within the Bible one finds it is written that God only inspired the writing. But here again the Bible would try to have us understand because the Bible is “inspired” by God, it would take God’s holy spirit to understand it. Without it, the words would be considered “foolishness”. Scholars who have studied the Bible for all their lives and you can not get a consensus among them what the scriptures are about. Each have their opinion, and it is hard for them to find a unified understanding. This is what I call Coppering your bet. More on this later have to leave the keyboard to get get the transportation worked on. Edit: Now let see if I remember what I was thinking prior to running out to get the Van worked on. The Bible was written, assembled, copied and translated by humans. That explains the flaws, the contradictions and the theological disagreements in its pages. Once a person comes to term with this and that is understood, it is possible to find out which parts of the Bible were not in the earliest Greek manuscripts, which are the bad translations, and what one book says in comparison with another. How often do members of this forum do that? Or is it easier and more comfortable to just fall back on the old adage that unless you have the spirit of God you will never understand the Bible? How often in a day do people reading the Bible use etymology to aid their understanding? Okay, Chuck I think I've preached long enough. Honestly I found it hard, almost impossible to understand because it wrecked my whole idea about everything, it wrecked many many years of my life and what I thought I was working towards. A person that has been working towards a Goal for say 40 years, is all of a sudden told it does not exist...... natural reaction is denial. The psychological effect is huge. For some they just cannot handle it, for some it's to late to change, particularly the older we get, some don't want to change because they're comfortable regardless of facts. If you were a 70 year old and this was all lumped on you what would you do. What would be the consequences if you changed, family?, friends?, traditions?, professions? ect ect. Some are honest enough to face the music, while most would just ride it out hoping to win lotto(Heaven). As for the Bible. I think we need to understand the Hebrew people before the greek manuscripts. Greeks are westerners like us. We think differently. A example, what do the greek manuscripts tell us about turning the other cheek or carrying the pack a extra mile?, and what did it mean to the relevant people?. Greek Manuscripts and translation are limited in passing on original meaning. I agree with the problems you have pointed out with Inspired by God, need God's spirit to understand, scholars ect. I just look at it quite simply now. Inspired is something that needs life. God is a divine(supremely good) nature. What was going on when they wrote it. What was it that made the world better in that time. Do not apply any magic. And the bits I have looked at properly make sense. Plenty I do not know and will never understand. Examples. Was Deutoronmy 21 and the captive woman making the world better than it previously was?. Absolutely. Therefore its the inspired word of God. It's something that needed life as it was driving man in the right direction. It was inspired by something supremely good, divine. It was transcendent. The inspired word of God. Another angle, Judgemnt was a pruning term. Fire was Purifying. Quite practical, no magic involved, very relevant to ones nature. If you do have the Character of Christ (others before self) it will prune or purify away the stuff that is fruitless. That's it. Something that makes the world a better place, inspired by the word of God. Add magic and you have a dude on a throne in the sky judging people and throwing those who dont follow certain rituals into some ocean of fire, and the guys promoting the magic have the power.
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Dec 3, 2020 20:55:39 GMT -5
Im not contradicting anything Nathan, its talking about a "Man", you are blatantly ignoring this and insert Angel in your mind instead. Who's contradicting?. "Man" not "Angel" "Man" went to Heaven and then fell from Heaven. The rich man in Hell still wanted Lazarus to serve him who was in Heaven. Hell and Heaven were in the same room. Not Venus and in the bowels of the earth. Then you go into a whole lot of religious drivel with a whole lot of God Jesus Spirit Bible talk with zero foundation to it outside of 2x2ism and mainly Roman Catholicism. Basically religion. Man not Angel!. Stop ignoring Importamt things that affect a understanding of a whole miriad of other things. If Lucifer is Just a normal Man like you and me it wrecks your whole idea of Satan. I can see you now going lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala with your fingers in your ears. Man not Angel. Man not Angel. Very important. Man not Angel. Man!. Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: “Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?” - Isaiah 14:16-17 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah14:16-17&version=NIVlike said you got things all screwed up! Just like with Satan/Lucifer is a man just like me and you. Satan/Lucifer is one of the highest angels of God in heaven. He is ONE kingdom above you and me the humans kingdom. God, Christ and Holy Spirit is ONE kingdom ABOVE Satan and all of the angels in heaven. And yet Isaiah was not talking about a "Angel". He was talking about a "Man" Ignoring this fact does not make it go away Nathan. Dishing up a abundance of word salad doesn't make it go away either. I didn't say Satan/Lucifer was a thing, you did. I said Lucifer was a Man, not a Angel. Satan does not exist. He is a Character. No where is there or do I make a connection between Satan and Lucifer because it is simply not there. Show me were Isiah say's the King/Man is Satan a fallen angel?. Show me in the original text not some translated version...... Particularly "Lucifer" in the original text.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Dec 3, 2020 21:25:43 GMT -5
like said you got things all screwed up! Just like with Satan/Lucifer is a man just like me and you. Satan/Lucifer is one of the highest angels of God in heaven. He is ONE kingdom above you and me the humans kingdom. God, Christ and Holy Spirit is ONE kingdom ABOVE Satan and all of the angels in heaven. And yet Isaiah was not talking about a "Angel". He was talking about a "Man" Ignoring this fact does not make it go away Nathan. Dishing up a abundance of word salad doesn't make it go away either. I didn't say Satan/Lucifer was a thing, you did. I said Lucifer was a Man, not a Angel. Satan does not exist. He is a Character. No where is there or do I make a connection between Satan and Lucifer because it is simply not there. Show me were Isiah say's the King/Man is Satan a fallen angel?. Show me in the original text not some translated version...... Particularly "Lucifer" in the original text. ** Well, I will let the readers decide who is the screw up on Satan is a man and NOT an angel. Satan and Lucifer are NOT the same character. You believe Satan is the humans/us. I have told you guys and gals for 10 years that God the Father, Christ/God, the Holy Spirit and Satan and all of the angels of God came from the Interior planet of Venus! The morning Star. Rev. 22:16
Rev. 12:1-9 After the war in heaven/Venus between God Vs. Lucifer/Satan, God cast Satan and 1/3 fallen angels to earth as their home/prison until the judgment day! Lucifer[1] is the name of various mythological and religious figures associated with the planet Venus. Due to the unique movements and discontinuous appearances of Venus in the sky, mythology surrounding these figures often involved a fall from the heavens to earth or the underworld. Interpretations of a similar term in the Hebrew Bible, translated in the King James Version as the proper name "Lucifer", led to a Christian tradition of applying the name Lucifer, and its associated stories of a fall from heaven, to Satan, but modern scholarship generally translates the term in the relevant Bible passage (Isaiah 14:12) as "morning star" or "shining one" rather than as a proper name, "Lucifer".[2] As a name for the Devil, the more common meaning in English, "Lucifer" is the rendering of the Hebrew word הֵילֵל (transliteration: hêylêl; pronunciation: hay-lale)[3] in Isaiah (Isaiah 14:12) given in the King James Version of the Bible. The translators of this version took the word from the Latin Vulgate,[4] which translated הֵילֵל by the Latin word lucifer (uncapitalized),[5][6] meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing".[7] As a name for the planet in its morning aspect, "Lucifer" (Light-Bringer) is a proper name and is capitalized in English. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer
|
|
shushy
Royal Member
Warning
50%
Posts: 8,009
|
Post by shushy on Dec 3, 2020 21:32:31 GMT -5
I predict anyone not believing there is a devil/satan will soon change their minds after the disclosure
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Dec 3, 2020 21:49:24 GMT -5
I predict anyone not believing there is a devil/satan will soon change their minds after the disclosure Are you going to disclose to us that you are wearing an ankle bracelet?
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Dec 4, 2020 2:06:29 GMT -5
And yet Isaiah was not talking about a "Angel". He was talking about a "Man" Ignoring this fact does not make it go away Nathan. Dishing up a abundance of word salad doesn't make it go away either. I didn't say Satan/Lucifer was a thing, you did. I said Lucifer was a Man, not a Angel. Satan does not exist. He is a Character. No where is there or do I make a connection between Satan and Lucifer because it is simply not there. Show me were Isiah say's the King/Man is Satan a fallen angel?. Show me in the original text not some translated version...... Particularly "Lucifer" in the original text. ** Well, I will let the readers decide who is the screw up on Satan is a man and NOT an angel. Satan and Lucifer are NOT the same character. You believe Satan is the humans/us. I have told you guys and gals for 10 years that God the Father, Christ/God, the Holy Spirit and Satan and all of the angels of God came from the Interior planet of Venus! The morning Star. Rev. 22:16
Rev. 12:1-9 After the war in heaven/Venus between God Vs. Lucifer/Satan, God cast Satan and 1/3 fallen angels to earth as their home/prison until the judgment day! Lucifer[1] is the name of various mythological and religious figures associated with the planet Venus. Due to the unique movements and discontinuous appearances of Venus in the sky, mythology surrounding these figures often involved a fall from the heavens to earth or the underworld. Interpretations of a similar term in the Hebrew Bible, translated in the King James Version as the proper name "Lucifer", led to a Christian tradition of applying the name Lucifer, and its associated stories of a fall from heaven, to Satan, but modern scholarship generally translates the term in the relevant Bible passage (Isaiah 14:12) as "morning star" or "shining one" rather than as a proper name, "Lucifer".[2] As a name for the Devil, the more common meaning in English, "Lucifer" is the rendering of the Hebrew word הֵילֵל (transliteration: hêylêl; pronunciation: hay-lale)[3] in Isaiah (Isaiah 14:12) given in the King James Version of the Bible. The translators of this version took the word from the Latin Vulgate,[4] which translated הֵילֵל by the Latin word lucifer (uncapitalized),[5][6] meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing".[7] As a name for the planet in its morning aspect, "Lucifer" (Light-Bringer) is a proper name and is capitalized in English. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LuciferI said, Isiah was talking about a mortal man titled "Lucifer" in translations, this mortal man was a King, most likely Nebuchadnezzar. Isiah was not talking about a Angel. He is talking about a Man, not a Angel who thinks he is Great(In Heaven or up high or above others) Understand what I am saying and stop rebutting what I am not saying. Isiah makes no connection to the King(Lucifer) a man, and Satan as a fallen angel. It is simply not there. You continually ignore this point and continually say its Satan a fallen Angel. The timing of Revelation 12 is pointed out in v10. The time of the cross not before. So it does not support a event In Isiah that never actually happened anyway before Adam. 2 points you blatantly ignore and never address. Man, not Angel, not Satan.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Dec 4, 2020 2:19:50 GMT -5
** Well, I will let the readers decide who is the screw up on Satan is a man and NOT an angel. Satan and Lucifer are NOT the same character. You believe Satan is the humans/us. I have told you guys and gals for 10 years that God the Father, Christ/God, the Holy Spirit and Satan and all of the angels of God came from the Interior planet of Venus! The morning Star. Rev. 22:16
Rev. 12:1-9 After the war in heaven/Venus between God Vs. Lucifer/Satan, God cast Satan and 1/3 fallen angels to earth as their home/prison until the judgment day! Lucifer[1] is the name of various mythological and religious figures associated with the planet Venus. Due to the unique movements and discontinuous appearances of Venus in the sky, mythology surrounding these figures often involved a fall from the heavens to earth or the underworld. Interpretations of a similar term in the Hebrew Bible, translated in the King James Version as the proper name "Lucifer", led to a Christian tradition of applying the name Lucifer, and its associated stories of a fall from heaven, to Satan, but modern scholarship generally translates the term in the relevant Bible passage (Isaiah 14:12) as "morning star" or "shining one" rather than as a proper name, "Lucifer".[2] As a name for the Devil, the more common meaning in English, "Lucifer" is the rendering of the Hebrew word הֵילֵל (transliteration: hêylêl; pronunciation: hay-lale)[3] in Isaiah (Isaiah 14:12) given in the King James Version of the Bible. The translators of this version took the word from the Latin Vulgate,[4] which translated הֵילֵל by the Latin word lucifer (uncapitalized),[5][6] meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing".[7] As a name for the planet in its morning aspect, "Lucifer" (Light-Bringer) is a proper name and is capitalized in English. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer I said, Isiah was talking about a mortal man titled "Lucifer" in translations, this mortal man was a King, most likely Nebuchadnezzar. Isiah was not talking about a Angel. He is talking about a Man, not a Angel who thinks he is Great(In Heaven or up high or above others) Understand what I am saying and stop rebutting what I am not saying. Isiah makes no connection to the King(Lucifer) a man, and Satan as a fallen angel. It is simply not there. You continually ignore this point and continually say its Satan a fallen Angel. The timing of Revelation 12 is pointed out in v10. The time of the cross not before. So it does not support a event In Isiah that never actually happened anyway before Adam. 2 points you blatantly ignore and never address. Man, not Angel, not Satan. That is your own opinion and that is humanly understanding!
The common understanding of the narrative found in Isaiah 14 is reflected in the book Beyond Star Wars by William F. Dankenbring where he states: "A much fuller account of the story [of the assumed fall of Satan] is provided by the prophet Isaiah. Notice what the prophet was inspired to record: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit" (Isaiah 14:12-15, KJV). "Here the prophet Isaiah describes what happened aeons ago! Here the first massive STAR WAR is briefly narrated. An archangel by the name of Lucifer, which means 'Day star,' or 'Shining star of the dawn,' rebelled against the Almighty God. He attempted to ascend to heaven, to exalt his own throne or seat of authority above the other angels, called 'stars of God.' He attempted to ascend above the clouds (clouds are in the earth's atmosphere), to rise up and conquer space -- to remove God from His Throne -- to become 'like the Most High.' But his abortive attempt failed. He was cast back down to earth in a massive struggle" (William F. Dankenbring, Beyond Star Wars, Triumph Publishing Co., 1978, pp. 289-290). "Here, the thoughts of Lucifer's mind are revealed. He had a secret agenda! He coveted God's throne! He became bitter, angry, jealous; he desired it all! He began resenting God's position! He told himself he was more beautiful, more gifted, more talented, more deserving than God! Who knows how many thousands, or even millions of years passed as Lucifer wheedled, whined, argued, reasoned, talked, and sought to influence the minds of all the angels under him? hope-of-israel.org/luciferinisaiah14.html
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Dec 4, 2020 2:54:57 GMT -5
I said, Isiah was talking about a mortal man titled "Lucifer" in translations, this mortal man was a King, most likely Nebuchadnezzar. Isiah was not talking about a Angel. He is talking about a Man, not a Angel who thinks he is Great(In Heaven or up high or above others) Understand what I am saying and stop rebutting what I am not saying. Isiah makes no connection to the King(Lucifer) a man, and Satan as a fallen angel. It is simply not there. You continually ignore this point and continually say its Satan a fallen Angel. The timing of Revelation 12 is pointed out in v10. The time of the cross not before. So it does not support a event In Isiah that never actually happened anyway before Adam. 2 points you blatantly ignore and never address. Man, not Angel, not Satan. That is your own opinion and that is humanly understanding!
The common understanding of the narrative found in Isaiah 14 is reflected in the book Beyond Star Wars by William F. Dankenbring where he states: "A much fuller account of the story [of the assumed fall of Satan] is provided by the prophet Isaiah. Notice what the prophet was inspired to record: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit" (Isaiah 14:12-15, KJV). "Here the prophet Isaiah describes what happened aeons ago! Here the first massive STAR WAR is briefly narrated. An archangel by the name of Lucifer, which means 'Day star,' or 'Shining star of the dawn,' rebelled against the Almighty God. He attempted to ascend to heaven, to exalt his own throne or seat of authority above the other angels, called 'stars of God.' He attempted to ascend above the clouds (clouds are in the earth's atmosphere), to rise up and conquer space -- to remove God from His Throne -- to become 'like the Most High.' But his abortive attempt failed. He was cast back down to earth in a massive struggle" (William F. Dankenbring, Beyond Star Wars, Triumph Publishing Co., 1978, pp. 289-290). "Here, the thoughts of Lucifer's mind are revealed. He had a secret agenda! He coveted God's throne! He became bitter, angry, jealous; he desired it all! He began resenting God's position! He told himself he was more beautiful, more gifted, more talented, more deserving than God! Who knows how many thousands, or even millions of years passed as Lucifer wheedled, whined, argued, reasoned, talked, and sought to influence the minds of all the angels under him? hope-of-israel.org/luciferinisaiah14.htmlIt is not my opinion. The King being Nebuchadnezzar is a opinion, Lucifer is a Angel is Satan is a opinion. You convieniently left out the next 2 verses. Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: “Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?” - Isaiah 14:16-17 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah14:16-17&version=NIVMan not Angel, Man not Satan. Daniel 4:22 [22]It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth. Nothing physically literal about it.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Dec 4, 2020 3:02:11 GMT -5
That is your own opinion and that is humanly understanding!
The common understanding of the narrative found in Isaiah 14 is reflected in the book Beyond Star Wars by William F. Dankenbring where he states: "A much fuller account of the story [of the assumed fall of Satan] is provided by the prophet Isaiah. Notice what the prophet was inspired to record: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit" (Isaiah 14:12-15, KJV). "Here the prophet Isaiah describes what happened aeons ago! Here the first massive STAR WAR is briefly narrated. An archangel by the name of Lucifer, which means 'Day star,' or 'Shining star of the dawn,' rebelled against the Almighty God. He attempted to ascend to heaven, to exalt his own throne or seat of authority above the other angels, called 'stars of God.' He attempted to ascend above the clouds (clouds are in the earth's atmosphere), to rise up and conquer space -- to remove God from His Throne -- to become 'like the Most High.' But his abortive attempt failed. He was cast back down to earth in a massive struggle" (William F. Dankenbring, Beyond Star Wars, Triumph Publishing Co., 1978, pp. 289-290). "Here, the thoughts of Lucifer's mind are revealed. He had a secret agenda! He coveted God's throne! He became bitter, angry, jealous; he desired it all! He began resenting God's position! He told himself he was more beautiful, more gifted, more talented, more deserving than God! Who knows how many thousands, or even millions of years passed as Lucifer wheedled, whined, argued, reasoned, talked, and sought to influence the minds of all the angels under him? hope-of-israel.org/luciferinisaiah14.html It is not my opinion. The King being Nebuchadnezzar is a opinion, Lucifer is a Angel is Satan is a opinion. You convieniently left out the next 2 verses. Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: “Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?” - Isaiah 14:16-17 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah14:16-17&version=NIVMan not Angel, Man not Satan. Daniel 4:22 [22]It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth. Nothing physically literal about it. Well, you hang on to your understanding and see who will agree with your interpretation and I will hang on to mine and others similar understanding Lucifer is Satan fallen from heaven/Venus planet! Not a human king on earth.
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Dec 4, 2020 3:13:46 GMT -5
It is not my opinion. The King being Nebuchadnezzar is a opinion, Lucifer is a Angel is Satan is a opinion. You convieniently left out the next 2 verses. Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: “Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?” - Isaiah 14:16-17 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah14:16-17&version=NIVMan not Angel, Man not Satan. Daniel 4:22 [22]It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth. Nothing physically literal about it. Well, you hang on to your understanding and see who will agree with your interpretation and I will hang on to mine and others similar understanding Lucifer is Satan fallen from heaven/Venus planet! Not a human king on earth.
I'm not here for a popularity contest Nathan. Nowhere does it suggest Lucifer Is Satan a fallen angel. You could say Nebuchadnezzar showed the Character of Satan. But the rest it just not there. One can't have a opinion or a understanding of something that's not there. I can have a opinion on the suggestion twice that Nebuchadnezzar went up to Heaven. An my opinion is only the ignorant take it literally.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Dec 4, 2020 10:56:39 GMT -5
Well, you hang on to your understanding and see who will agree with your interpretation and I will hang on to mine and others similar understanding Lucifer is Satan fallen from heaven/Venus planet! Not a human king on earth.
I'm not here for a popularity contest Nathan. Nowhere does it suggest Lucifer Is Satan a fallen angel. You could say Nebuchadnezzar showed the Character of Satan. But the rest it just not there. One can't have a opinion or a understanding of something that's not there. I can have a opinion on the suggestion twice that Nebuchadnezzar went up to Heaven. An my opinion is only the ignorant take it literally. Jesus said in John 3:14 NO man has entered heaven, but he that came DOWN from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven...... No man had entered heaven before Jesus paid the ransom priced on Calvary! Therefore, Nebuch could NOT have went up or in heaven in the Old Testament.
All believers and unbelievers souls go to Hades/inner earth after death. The believers souls stay there until Jesus had paid the ransom price for their sins, then after that their souls ascended/enter heavenly realm to be with God and Christ Luke 16.
Lucifer was cast out from heaven and down to earth after the fallen angels lost the WAR in heaven. Rev. 12:1-7.
The angels of God have names... Michael, Gabriel, Valiant, Donn Thor, Lucifer... I have a long list names of many angels of God.
|
|
|
Post by intelchips on Dec 4, 2020 11:17:28 GMT -5
I'm not here for a popularity contest Nathan. Nowhere does it suggest Lucifer Is Satan a fallen angel. You could say Nebuchadnezzar showed the Character of Satan. But the rest it just not there. One can't have a opinion or a understanding of something that's not there. I can have a opinion on the suggestion twice that Nebuchadnezzar went up to Heaven. An my opinion is only the ignorant take it literally. Jesus said in John 3:14 NO man has entered heaven, but he that came DOWN from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven...... No man had entered heaven before Jesus paid the ransom priced on Calvary! Therefore, Nebuch could NOT have went up or in heaven in the Old Testament.
All believers and unbelievers souls go to Hades/inner earth after death. The believers souls stay there until Jesus had paid the ransom price for their sins, then after that their souls ascended/enter heavenly realm to be with God and Christ Luke 16.
Lucifer was cast out from heaven and down to earth after the fallen angels lost the WAR in heaven. Rev. 12:1-7.
The angels of God have names... Michael, Gabriel, Valiant, Donn Thor, Lucifer... I have a long list names of many angels of God.
Sheol is found in the Bible sixty-five times. It is translated “the pit” three times, “the grave” thirty-one times, and “hell” thirty-one times. Hades is used eleven times, being rendered “hell” ten times and “grave” once. Adding to the confusion is that two other words are also translated hell in the New Testament. These are Tartarus, which is found once and Gehenna, which is used twelve times. Pick the one that makes you feel safe!
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Dec 4, 2020 11:25:17 GMT -5
Jesus said in John 3:14 NO man has entered heaven, but he that came DOWN from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven...... No man had entered heaven before Jesus paid the ransom priced on Calvary! Therefore, Nebuch could NOT have went up or in heaven in the Old Testament.
All believers and unbelievers souls go to Hades/inner earth after death. The believers souls stay there until Jesus had paid the ransom price for their sins, then after that their souls ascended/enter heavenly realm to be with God and Christ Luke 16.
Lucifer was cast out from heaven and down to earth after the fallen angels lost the WAR in heaven. Rev. 12:1-7.
The angels of God have names... Michael, Gabriel, Valiant, Donn Thor, Lucifer... I have a long list names of many angels of God.
Sheol is found in the Bible sixty-five times. It is translated “the pit” three times, “the grave” thirty-one times, and “hell” thirty-one times. Hades is used eleven times, being rendered “hell” ten times and “grave” once. Adding to the confusion is that two other words are also translated hell in the New Testament. These are Tartarus, which is found once and Gehenna, which is used twelve times. Pick the one that makes you feel safe! 1) After death our human flesh bodies go to the grave and it return to dust but the unbelievers souls go to Hades but the believers souls go to heaven to be with God and Christ.
2) The unbelievers souls stay in Hades until it will be taken up in heaven to be judged and sentenced the Second Death to be cast in the Lake of fire/Gehenna after judgment day. The believers spared from the Second Death and live with God and Christ forever.
|
|
|
Post by intelchips on Dec 4, 2020 11:43:27 GMT -5
Sheol is found in the Bible sixty-five times. It is translated “the pit” three times, “the grave” thirty-one times, and “hell” thirty-one times. Hades is used eleven times, being rendered “hell” ten times and “grave” once. Adding to the confusion is that two other words are also translated hell in the New Testament. These are Tartarus, which is found once and Gehenna, which is used twelve times. Pick the one that makes you feel safe! 1) After death our human flesh bodies go to the grave and it return to dust but the unbelievers souls go to Hades but the believers souls go to heaven to be with God and Christ.
2) The unbelievers souls stay in Hades until it will be taken up in heaven to be judged and sentenced the Second Death to be cast in the Lake of fire/Gehenna after judgment day. The believers spared from the Second Death and live with God and Christ forever.I'm making plan to come save you in the spring. Eldon Tenniswood, willie Jamerson and I are coming to the Northwest area and I think we might just be able to rehabilitate you. Here's hoping the laborer's will be worth their wages.
|
|
|
Post by jetmech on Dec 4, 2020 12:11:08 GMT -5
** Your thinking and belief are contradicting to the Scriptures about Satan. Jesus and the apostles warn us about Satan's spirit roaming around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour/their souls. Christ/God is a Spirit. In the Old Testament Christ/Spirit took on human form/body and as an Angel of God/ Messenger from God the Father. Satan/Lucifer is a spirit and he too can shape shifting into an angel of light, a man or any animal/Serpent or Dragon. Im not contradicting anything Nathan, its talking about a "Man", you are blatantly ignoring this and insert Angel in your mind instead. Who's contradicting?. "Man" not "Angel" "Man" went to Heaven and then fell from Heaven. The rich man in Hell still wanted Lazarus to serve him who was in Heaven. Hell and Heaven were in the same room. Not Venus and in the bowels of the earth. Then you go into a whole lot of religious drivel with a whole lot of God Jesus Spirit Bible talk with zero foundation to it outside of 2x2ism and mainly Roman Catholicism. Basically religion. Man not Angel!. Stop ignoring Importamt things that affect a understanding of a whole miriad of other things. If Lucifer is Just a normal Man like you and me it wrecks your whole idea of Satan. I can see you now going lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala with your fingers in your ears. Man not Angel. Man not Angel. Very important. Man not Angel. Man!. Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: “Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?” - Isaiah 14:16-17 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah14:16-17&version=NIVChuck I'm glad to see you believe in the Bible. I'm glad you believe the prophet Isaiah. From your discussion with Nathan, it seems to me that you don't believe in GOD ... at least you don't believe in GOD in the same context mentioned in the Bible. Is this true? -Since you quote Isaiah 14:16-17 I perceive you clearly believe the great prophet Isaiah. I'm just not sure where you are with the context of GOD and the son of GOD from the biblical standpoint and views expressed biblically. Of course your biblical belief system is none of my business whatsoever; but, I find your posted rhetoric in this discussion with Nathan very interesting and am just attempting to fully understand your views. Nathan's statements about Satan's existence going back millions, possibly billions of years,Seems biblically accurate to me; but, I'm not well versed nor clear about the details of Satan as this was not discussed very often in the meetings while I was a child.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Dec 4, 2020 12:25:46 GMT -5
1) After death our human flesh bodies go to the grave and it return to dust but the unbelievers souls go to Hades. However, the believers souls go to heaven to be with God and Christ.
2) The unbelievers souls stay in Hades until it will be taken up in heaven to be judged and sentenced the Second Death to be cast in the Lake of fire/Gehenna after judgment day. The believers spared from the Second Death and live with God and Christ forever. I'm making plan to come save you in the spring. Eldon Tenniswood, willie Jamerson and I are coming to the Northwest area and I think we might just be able to rehabilitate you. Here's hoping the laborer's will be worth their wages. You smoking too much Weeds, my friend! Stay off the weeds so you can think clearly. Eldon T. And Willie J. Died many years ago! They are in heaven and can't be with you in the spring.
|
|
|
Post by intelchips on Dec 4, 2020 12:43:48 GMT -5
I'm making plan to come save you in the spring. Eldon Tenniswood, willie Jamerson and I are coming to the Northwest area and I think we might just be able to rehabilitate you. Here's hoping the laborer's will be worth their wages. You smoking too much Weeds, my friends! Stay off the weeds so you can think clearly. Eldon T. And Willie J. Died many years ago! They are in heaven and can't be with you in the spring. They have a ticket from Venus to earth and they assure me they are willing to help me with you.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Dec 4, 2020 12:50:47 GMT -5
You smoking too much Weeds, my friends! Stay off the weeds so you can think clearly. Eldon T. And Willie J. Died many years ago! They are in heaven and can't be with you in the spring. They have a ticket from Venus to earth and they assure me they are willing to help me with you. *** Ok, I will wait for you and them to come to Portland in the spring and I will take you 3 to the best Vietnamese Rest. Dinner and if you 3 don't show up, then I know you are lying.
|
|
shushy
Royal Member
Warning
50%
Posts: 8,009
|
Post by shushy on Dec 4, 2020 17:24:47 GMT -5
Chuck I work in pictures. Lucifer was son of the morning. The most adorned and beautiful angel that led all the angels to worship around the throne. He got lifted up in pride and rebellion, became jealous of the worship given to the father. He convinced one third of the angels to rebel against god. Consequently lucifer and one third of the angels were thrown out of heaven cast down to earth. Their form was changed. Lucifer became satan, the devil. Prince of the power of the air. Dwells in the spiritual heaven around us. Principalities, powers,spirits of wickeness in high places all are part of the kingdom of darkness warring against the kingdom of light. Shushy this is quite interesting. Could you please give me some Bible references to what you've said here so I can research this some more? Thanks It is fascinating and it is true Also very powerful Heb4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. I hope this helps you I work in pictures. Lucifer was son of the morning. (12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!--The word for Lucifer is, literally, the shining one, the planet Venus, the morning star, the son of the dawn, as the symbol of the Babylonian power, which was so closely identified with astrolatry. "Lucifer" etymologically gives the same meaning, and is used by Latin poets (Tibull. i., 10, 62) for Venus, as an equivalent for the phosphoros of the Greeks. The use of the word, however, in mediaeval Latin as a name of Satan, whose fall was supposed to be shadowed forth in this and the following verse, makes its selection here singularly unfortunate. Few English readers realise the fact that it is the king of Babylon, and not the devil, who is addressed as Lucifer. While this has been the history of the Latin word, its Greek and English equivalents have risen to a higher place, and the "morning star" has become a name of the Christ (Revelation 22:16). Ezekial 28 King of Tyre known as satan Fall of Lucifer v 11-19 The most adorned and beautiful angel that led all the angels to worship around the throne."bright morning star" verse 17, “Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor.” verse 17, “you were perfect in all your ways until iniquity was found in thee” He got lifted up in pride and rebellion, became jealous of the worship given to the father. Isaiah 14:12-15 of the Torah and the Bible refers to Lucifer as a "bright morning star" whose rebellion against God caused his fall: You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit." Ezekiel 28 verse 17, “Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor.” He convinced one third of the angels to rebel against god.“"How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn!” Heb12:22 verse 17, “Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor.” Another version “But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, Consequently lucifer and one third of the angels were thrown out of heaven cast down to earth. Revelations 12:7“ You have been cast down to the earth” 7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. Their form was changed. Genesis 3:14, NIV: "So the LORD God said to the serpent, 'Because you have done this, 'Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life." Lucifer became satan, the devil.7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. Prince of the power of the air.Ephesians 2:2 in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. Dwells in the spiritual heaven around us. Job 1:6) But the Bible foretold that there would be a “war in heaven” that would result in Satan’s being expelled from heaven and “cast out into the earth.”. Ephesians 2:1-3 “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others,” Principalities, powers,spirits of wickeness in high places all are part of the kingdom of darkness warring against the kingdom of light.Eph 6:12 2For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Revelations 22:16 16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
|
|
shushy
Royal Member
Warning
50%
Posts: 8,009
|
Post by shushy on Dec 4, 2020 17:25:41 GMT -5
I predict anyone not believing there is a devil/satan will soon change their minds after the disclosure Are you going to disclose to us that you are wearing an ankle bracelet? If I have it is invisible and connected to heaven
|
|