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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 8, 2020 16:37:43 GMT -5
This question was put before some Mormons a couple of days ago and it triggered quite an interesting discussion. According to Warren Jeffs, fossils are the remains of creatures left over from other planets when God was making the earth. Eighth grade science lesson in his FLDS parochial school in Colorado City, AZ. Might be something for Nathan to inquire into.
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Post by ForeverFree on Aug 8, 2020 17:13:02 GMT -5
This question was put before some Mormons a couple of days ago and it triggered quite an interesting discussion. What was the Mormon response/explanation?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Aug 9, 2020 2:39:18 GMT -5
This question was put before some Mormons a couple of days ago and it triggered quite an interesting discussion. What was the Mormon response/explanation? There is a few fossils that post on here.
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Post by speak on Aug 9, 2020 4:02:25 GMT -5
What was the Mormon response/explanation? There is a few fossils that post on here. Thought this was very interesting today. Genomic Study Reveals New Zealand's Tuatara Is Like No Other Animal on The Planet CARLY CASSELLA7 AUGUST 2020 In the evolutionary tree of life, the lizard-like tuatara from New Zealand is on a branch all to itself. In the time of the dinosaurs, this extraordinary animal had lots of relatives all around the world, and yet now, there's nothing else like it on Earth. According to new sequencing of the tuatara's entire genome - one of the largest on record and 50 percent larger than the human genome - it appears this strange creature is neither lizard, bird, nor mammal. Rather, it's some strange amalgamation of all three. According to the authors of the new study, the animal's genomic architecture is unlike anything previously reported. "The tuatara genome contained about 4 percent jumping genes that are common in reptiles, about 10 percent common in monotremes (platypus and echidna) and less than 1 percent common in placental mammals such as humans," says biologist David Adelson from the University of Adelaide, Australia. "This was a highly unusual observation and indicated that the tuatara genome is an odd combination of both mammalian and reptilian [including bird] components." Scientists already knew the tuatara (Sphenodon punctatus) was something else, but this new research suggests it's even more unique than we suspected. Found solely in New Zealand, the tuatara - which does greatly resemble a lizard to the untrained eye - is considered a taonga, or 'special treasure' for the local Māori. And for good reason. These nocturnal creatures can live for a century, withstand super cold temperatures, hold their breath for as long as an hour, and see light out of a third 'parietal eye' on their heads. Today, the species' closest relatives are snakes and lizards, but to call them relatives is a bit like calling a kangaroo a relative of humans. Their common ancestor actually goes back some 250 million years. Throughout that huge amount of time, tuatara have remained the sole members of the archaic reptilian order known as Rhynchocephalia. "This species represents an important link to the now-extinct stem reptiles from which dinosaurs, modern reptiles, birds and mammals evolved, and is thus important for our understanding of amniote evolution," the research team writes in their paper. The tuatara retains features of the ancient and long-extinct animals from which all these groups evolved from. The researchers that sequenced its genome note this species is the slowest-evolving reptile yet analysed, more so than any other lizard or snake. As such, tuatara are a direct line back to our origins, but their continued existence on our planet is not a sure bet. While their numbers are doing okay now, as tuatara are protected on all 35 islands they are found on in New Zealand, a rapidly changing climate could spell their eventual doom. The sex of future tuatara depends heavily on the temperature surrounding the eggs, and global warming could lead to too many males being born, sending the reproductive cycle into an imbalance. The authors of the new study say tuatara "remain imperilled owing to their highly restricted distribution, threats imposed by disease and changes in sex ratios induced by climate change that could markedly affect their survival." Knowing more about the species is crucial for its continued survival. But this genomics research is important for other reasons, too. The research was done in partnership with the Ngātiwai, the Māori iwi (tribe) who hold kaitiakitanga (guardianship) over the tuatara populations; this sort of collaboration is not always considered in conservation research. "This partnership - which, to our knowledge, is unique among the genome projects undertaken to date - had a strong practical focus on developing resources and information that will improve our understanding of the tuatara and aid in future conservation efforts," the authors write. "It is hoped that this work will form an exemplar for future genome initiatives that aspire to meet access and benefit-sharing obligations to Indigenous communities." Sharing knowledge is important, as is sharing credit. The Ngātiwai Trust Board is listed amongst the authors of the paper. The study was published in Nature.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Aug 9, 2020 4:10:12 GMT -5
Thanks for that you old fossil. I have only seen them in the Invergiggle Museum? I held one or it held me. It sat on my forearm which was really interesting. I have never seen them in the wild yet they were quite common until wild cats, mustelids and dogs got down on them.
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Post by Pragmatic on Aug 9, 2020 5:00:15 GMT -5
Thanks Speak....they sure are interesting characters, and they feel real cold if they touch your skin.
Zealandia in Wellington are also doing good conservation work with them.
Up in Wilpena Pound north of Adelaide by about six hours drive, way up high in the outback, you can pour water on some rocks and see the outline of fossilised shellfish. Similarly here in NZ inland from Patea near Rotorangi, the same thing. In the days of Gondwanaland, there sure were some upheavals.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Aug 9, 2020 13:22:02 GMT -5
Thanks Speak....they sure are interesting characters, and they feel real cold if they touch your skin. Zealandia in Wellington are also doing good conservation work with them. Up in Wilpena Pound north of Adelaide by about six hours drive, way up high in the outback, you can pour water on some rocks and see the outline of fossilised shellfish. Similarly here in NZ inland from Patea near Rotorsngi, the same thing. In the days of Gondwanaland, there sure were some upheavals. The Mudstones of that area are quite interesting. I have never explored as far south as Roto o rangi but further north around the Matemateongas and across to Uruti is very interesting country. Big bush, nasty gullies, and the odd fossil. Have you ever seen the Ammonites at Kawhia? Perhaps they looked back one last time and that is the result.
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Post by Lee on Aug 10, 2020 21:05:30 GMT -5
So how do they form, chemically, chronologically?
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 10, 2020 22:36:07 GMT -5
So how do they form, chemically, chronologically? That sounds like a 3 or 4 credit hour course, Lee. But then, "Yes" may just be a sufficient answer.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Aug 10, 2020 22:54:39 GMT -5
So how do they form, chemically, chronologically? That sounds like a 3 or 4 credit hour course, Lee. But then, "Yes" may just be a sufficient answer. The question is not the right question to find the answer.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Aug 12, 2020 2:16:07 GMT -5
Gratu, can you explain to TMB why there are no Penguin, Tuatara or Kangaroo fossils found in the Northern Hemisphere?
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Post by ForeverFree on Aug 12, 2020 2:47:38 GMT -5
“What was the Mormon response/explanation? “ I did expect someone from among 2x2s and or ex2x2s to ask that kind of question – it is the standard 2x2 question many 2x2s have asked when they are asked a question that they don't want to answer for obvious reasons. If one asks a 2x2 what grace is, often a 2x2 will answer sometthing like, “what do you think it is?” And then if one gives a reply to their question, the 2x2 is likely to argue the complete opposite because it is such a great diversion tactic to use when a 2x2 does not want to answersuch a 'hard' question as, “How do fossils form?” In fact the responses so far on this thread are ALL diversionary tactics. So to answer the quoted sentence, many Mormnons detailed how fossils form – the processes are well understood, I think, by grad 6 students in public schools. This was how you started the thread: This question was put before some Mormons a couple of days ago and it triggered quite an interesting discussion.You asked them a question, I asked what their response to the question was. So why would you " expect someone from among 2x2s and or ex2x2s to ask that kind of question"? The majority, if not all of those on TMB are 2x2s and/or ex-2x2s, so who did you really expect to ask the question?
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Post by Pragmatic on Aug 12, 2020 3:18:29 GMT -5
Depends on what sort of fossils you're talking. Bones is probably front of mind, and this is when an animal dies in a watery environment and is buried in mud and silt. Soft tissues quickly decompose leaving the hard bones or shells behind. Over time sediment builds over the top and hardens into rock.
I have been in the Outback of Australia many hours from the nearest sea, and in the mountain tablelands and poured water onto rocks to view the fossilised shellfish and crustaceans.
The upheaval that caused this to happen is in Aboriginal history from tens of thousands of years ago, but many fundamentalist religious folk refuse to believe it.
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Post by speak on Aug 12, 2020 4:02:52 GMT -5
And just why would 2x2s and former 2x2s evade such a question as “How do fossils form? I think the reason is because even uneducated 2x2s and former 2x2s know very well that if their pet dog or cat drowned in a lake and sank to the bottom, it would rot away and/or be consumed by predators (bones included) long before it had a chance to be covered with sediment enough to preserve it in the form of a fossil. What many grade 6 students in public schools seem to fail to notice is that every fossil producing process taught at public schools avoids the obvious catastrophic mass coverage of submerged dead animals that explains how those dead animals are sealed away from all scavengers long enough to become fossilized. Many Mormons demonstrated that they do not believe in evolution based upon such simplistic scientific facts as how fossils are formed. I'm outa here - cause many Mormons who even resemble 2x2s are far more interesting to discuss such things with. Who cares?
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Post by Pragmatic on Aug 12, 2020 4:08:13 GMT -5
Finally, someone on TMB answered the thread's original question. Congratulations Pragmatic. What is noticeably missing from your post is just WHAT “The upheaval that caused this to happen" was. An obviously “Aboriginal history “ does not leave that out, nor do many other ancient histories of native peoples. That is why there are massive flood stories in many of those histories, including “Aboriginal history.” What do I know, now that ONE on here has taken up a logical reply to the thread's title question, maybe the usual 2x2 type of non-answer will disappear from this thread and such discussion might then begin to resemble the discussion the opening question triggered with some Mormons? So just before I go back to discussions with Mormons, let me say in response to Pragmatic's post, there doesn't need to be bones – that obviously was in reference to dead dog or cat – fossilized leaves demonstrate that those leaves were sealed away from predators long enough to fossilize leaving behind imprint of the veins of those leaves. And if Pragmatic thinks sediment collects in sufficient quantities to compress the dead leaf and turn it to stone by massive pressure all that shows is that Pragmatic assumes “tens of thousands of years “ for the existence of Aborigines in Australia. A global flood could easily fit the Biblical explanation of a mere 6000 (about) whole history of the existence of the universe, including the flood story within Aboriginal history. See ya again sometime – maybe sooner if this board gets onto good discussions on this thread. In Wilpena, it may have been a Meteorite. In the Two Serpents, it was probably a Plate Shift. Aborigines probably come from the Torres Strait people, who have a history of over 200,000 years. I do not subscribe to the "man only being here for 6000 years theory.
Gotta run, as I am heading away and out of coverage for a while
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 12, 2020 5:38:51 GMT -5
Depends on what sort of fossils you're talking. Bones is probably front of mind, and this is when an animal dies in a watery environment and is buried in mud and silt. Soft tissues quickly decompose leaving the hard bones or shells behind. Over time sediment builds over the top and hardens into rock. I have been in the Outback of Australia many hours from the nearest sea, and in the mountain tablelands and poured water onto rocks to view the fossilised shellfish and crustaceans. The upheaval that caused this to happen is in Aboriginal history from tens of thousands of years ago, but many fundamentalist religious folk refuse to believe it. In the high desert of Nevada, nearly a mile above sea level, there are places where it is almost impossible to plow land for a garden without turning up seashells. A couple of wildlife specialists I worked with for a while told me of a time when one of the office clerks was with them on an 8 hour trip to a business meeting, and as they drove along they were discussing the shoreline on the hillsides where the ancient lake was that covered much of the state of Nevada. They all stopped talking when she asked them how they had drained such a big lake.
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 12, 2020 6:58:33 GMT -5
Depends on what sort of fossils you're talking. Bones is probably front of mind, and this is when an animal dies in a watery environment and is buried in mud and silt. Soft tissues quickly decompose leaving the hard bones or shells behind. Over time sediment builds over the top and hardens into rock. I have been in the Outback of Australia many hours from the nearest sea, and in the mountain tablelands and poured water onto rocks to view the fossilised shellfish and crustaceans. The upheaval that caused this to happen is in Aboriginal history from tens of thousands of years ago, but many fundamentalist religious folk refuse to believe it. In the high desert of Nevada, nearly a mile above sea level, there are places where it is almost impossible to plow land for a garden without turning up seashells. A couple of wildlife specialists I worked with for a while told me of a time when one of the office clerks was with them on an 8 hour trip to a business meeting, and as they drove along they were discussing the shoreline on the hillsides where the ancient lake was that covered much of the state of Nevada. They all stopped talking when she asked them how they had drained such a big lake. A helicopter pilot that flies tourists over the Grand Canyon said a somewhat common question he gets , is “ when did the government do this ?” Alvin Rotten “republicans “ anyhow , should have done a better job of it - way over contract.......
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Post by mountain on Aug 12, 2020 12:18:31 GMT -5
Gratu, can you explain to TMB why there are no Penguin, Tuatara or Kangaroo fossils found in the Northern Hemisphere? These are all post-deluvian species and were not in the Ark. Here is something up Grats's street. www.nature.com/articles/ncomms1482
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Aug 12, 2020 13:02:06 GMT -5
Gratu, can you explain to TMB why there are no Penguin, Tuatara or Kangaroo fossils found in the Northern Hemisphere? These are all post-deluvian species and were not in the Ark. Here is something up Grats's street. www.nature.com/articles/ncomms1482RUBBISH
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Post by speak on Aug 12, 2020 18:22:36 GMT -5
Gratu, can you explain to TMB why there are no Penguin, Tuatara or Kangaroo fossils found in the Northern Hemisphere? These are all post-deluvian species and were not in the Ark. Here is something up Grats's street. www.nature.com/articles/ncomms1482Come on now buddy I don't see any date stamp on them.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 12, 2020 18:27:57 GMT -5
Come on now buddy I don't see any date stamp on them. Do you have a better explanation?
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Post by mountain on Aug 13, 2020 17:05:35 GMT -5
Come on now buddy I don't see any date stamp on them. Genesis 9 8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, 9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; 10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.11 And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. Verse 10 reads like all the living creatures that were with Noah in the Ark were to go out and mingle with every beast of the (new) earth? The ante-deluvian world was a single large land mass. The post deluvian world was a break up of that land mass into continental shelves akin to what we know today. If we look at a map of the world we can see where all the pieces more or less fitted together. All living things had been corrupted in the ante-deluvian world and save for a few pure samples of uncorrupted animals, etc, including man, all were destroyed. The uncorrupted animals, etc., helped to re-populate the world. However, the broken and separated land masses of the new world contained a lot of new species commensurate with their environment, eg kangaroos in Australia. No hop, skip and a mighty jump from Mount Ararat to reach Oz. They were created along with many others for the new world. (Nathan)
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Post by speak on Aug 13, 2020 18:26:10 GMT -5
Come on now buddy I don't see any date stamp on them. Genesis 9 8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, 9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; 10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.11 And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. Verse 10 reads like all the living creatures that were with Noah in the Ark were to go out and mingle with every beast of the (new) earth? The ante-deluvian world was a single large land mass. The post deluvian world was a break up of that land mass into continental shelves akin to what we know today. If we look at a map of the world we can see where all the pieces more or less fitted together. All living things had been corrupted in the ante-deluvian world and save for a few pure samples of uncorrupted animals, etc, including man, all were destroyed. The uncorrupted animals, etc., helped to re-populate the world. However, the broken and separated land masses of the new world contained a lot of new species commensurate with their environment, eg kangaroos in Australia. No hop, skip and a mighty jump from Mount Ararat to reach Oz. They were created along with many others for the new world. (Nathan) one thing wrong here my friend, with God all things are possible.
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Post by speak on Aug 13, 2020 20:48:23 GMT -5
Gratu, can you explain to TMB why there are no Penguin, Tuatara or Kangaroo fossils found in the Northern Hemisphere? These are all post-deluvian species and were not in the Ark. Here is something up Grats's street. www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14823.36 Million Year Old Fossils From an Ancient Crested Penguin Found in New Zealand. Existing, happening, or living, after the Flood described in the book of Genesis, or (later) after a widespread flood as described in other mythological traditions.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2020 22:59:31 GMT -5
Fossils form because God.
You know... this "not thinking" thing has its merits.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 13, 2020 23:18:44 GMT -5
Genesis 9 8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, 9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; 10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.11 And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. Verse 10 reads like all the living creatures that were with Noah in the Ark were to go out and mingle with every beast of the (new) earth? The ante-deluvian world was a single large land mass. The post deluvian world was a break up of that land mass into continental shelves akin to what we know today. If we look at a map of the world we can see where all the pieces more or less fitted together. All living things had been corrupted in the ante-deluvian world and save for a few pure samples of uncorrupted animals, etc, including man, all were destroyed. The uncorrupted animals, etc., helped to re-populate the world. However, the broken and separated land masses of the new world contained a lot of new species commensurate with their environment, eg kangaroos in Australia. No hop, skip and a mighty jump from Mount Ararat to reach Oz. They were created along with many others for the new world. (Nathan) one thing wrong here my friend, with God all things are possible. That is always the fallback explanation, -a retreat when an logical answer becomes too difficult and one is unable to provide a valid explanation!
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Post by speak on Aug 13, 2020 23:33:19 GMT -5
one thing wrong here my friend, with God all things are possible. That is always the fallback explanation, -a retreat when an logical answer becomes too difficult and one is unable to provide a valid explanation! What ever turns you on
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magpies39plus
Senior Member
WHY? Does quoting relevant scripture send the 2x2;s into sometimes a nasty response??
Posts: 572
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Post by magpies39plus on Aug 13, 2020 23:42:35 GMT -5
First thing that happens is the animal dies. Second don't be to dogmatic about the 7 days of creation,as yom (day) can also be eras of time. Me I am happy to allow individuals have either or mixed views on this,because the most important thing is their current relationship with God.Sometimes we get bogged down with issues,not Gods Grace,Magpie
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