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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 22, 2020 21:30:05 GMT -5
Vague? I made sure the question appeared in the post where I was asking about it. Can't help you with that one. What was the point of your post Bob Don't worry about it now.
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Post by chuck on Jul 23, 2020 6:28:14 GMT -5
Fair in dialogue is what you are not in this thread, And when its not how you like it you say this, it's not the first time either. Its a cop out. "I have no inclination nor feeling of obligation to answer your questions as to what I believe! I have no desire to get into a discussion on the bible" Generally in dialogue it goes both ways and its common decency to respond to a question.... the internet is a good way to dodge common decency. For someone who doesn't want to discuss the bible you sure do have a lot to say about the bible. This all started with a question from you about the bible..... you say im incompatible with the bible.... If you dont want to discuss the bible stop talking about the bibe.... Back up your antithetical and incompatible statmemt. From all your TRUTH, professing, 2x2's language you seem to struggle how I can associate with them and it almost seems as if you would be happier if I left them or towed the 2x2ism line. Like I tell Nathan it's just a lable or banner. The people underneath it are human beings and I will no way shun them because of their label or what they believe or what I disagree with, that's not how to treat people. Since you wont answer I will. No Sodom and Gomorrah is not still literally burning. So why would I think that it was literal eternal fire in Matthew 25. And the Hebrew people thought of Purifying when fire was mentioned, and eternal life or punishment way a way of life not literally physically like you read it or think I should read it because I fall under the 2x2 banner. Chuck, You made statements about what you believed concerning what certain bible passages meant. Right?
They were not what the bible actually said nor what the 2x2's believe.
You kept asking ME what I thought the those passages meant.
As an atheist, I don't believe in miracles and certainly not the Jesus was dead for three days and the came back to life and eventually was physically taken up into the sky!
As an atheist why would I even debate with you back & forth the intricacies of a story that I didn't believe was accurate to start with and may not have even happened, -certainly not in the way it was told.
Chuck, Don't make assumptions about what I would be " happier " with as to your relationship to the people in the fellowship.
Your beliefs stated here is incompatible with the beliefs in fellowship that I knew and I doubt very much they would be exceptable now if expressed to the workers as you have stated them here
Yes, just like you. Back up your statement. What does what a 2x2 believes have to do with this. I have never used the miracles of Jesus as some sort of authority in my discussions with you. Why are you pivoting the conversation to it?. As a Atheists is the same As a 2x2, or As a whatever. To me a Atheists can show the Character of Christ just like any other so what's your point?. If you don't want me to make assumptions change the language surrounding 2x2's and THE TRUTH. The tone is you are not happy with the answers I give you given I come under the 2x2 banner, you instead should care that I care about People, not 2x2ism and what it believes. Running is not the answer, kicking me out is not the answer. A label is not the answer. Grace, Compassion, Slow to anger, Abounding in Love is the answer. Instead of concerning youself with my personal situation put that time into understanding True Christianity is not religion and how a Atheists can shine their light just as good as proclaimed Christians! 😉.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 23, 2020 22:19:11 GMT -5
Chuck, You made statements about what you believed concerning what certain bible passages meant. Right?
They were not what the bible actually said nor what the 2x2's believe.
You kept asking ME what I thought the those passages meant.
As an atheist, I don't believe in miracles and certainly not the Jesus was dead for three days and the came back to life and eventually was physically taken up into the sky!
As an atheist why would I even debate with you back & forth the intricacies of a story that I didn't believe was accurate to start with and may not have even happened, -certainly not in the way it was told.
Chuck, Don't make assumptions about what I would be " happier " with as to your relationship to the people in the fellowship.
Your beliefs stated here is incompatible with the beliefs in fellowship that I knew and I doubt very much they would be exceptable now if expressed to the workers as you have stated them here
Yes, just like you. Back up your statement. What does what a 2x2 believes have to do with this. I have never used the miracles of Jesus as some sort of authority in my discussions with you. Why are you pivoting the conversation to it?. As a Atheists is the same As a 2x2, or As a whatever. To me a Atheists can show the Character of Christ just like any other so what's your point?. If you don't want me to make assumptions change the language surrounding 2x2's and THE TRUTH. The tone is you are not happy with the answers I give you given I come under the 2x2 banner, you instead should care that I care about People, not 2x2ism and what it believes Running is not the answer, kicking me out is not the answer. A label is not the answer. Grace, Compassion, Slow to anger, Abounding in Love is the answer. Instead of concerning youself with my personal situation put that time into understanding True Christianity is not religion and how a Atheists can shine their light just as good as proclaimed Christians! 😉. Yes, -I make statements, -but unlike you I am NOT saying, "Yep, I'm professing." That is the difference in "what a 2x2 believes have to do with this."
You have used the "miracles of Jesus" many times in your posts right from the beginning. Why am I now to one that "pivoting" away from the subject?
I have told you that I have been reading your posts since you first started on this subject. It was your repeated insistence that " Christianity is not religion" that caused me to answer your posts to begin with.
Did you not want any comments to your posts?
As for your "personal situation," -isn't that plain in your posts? My only interest in your "situation" -still professing but also holding the beliefs that you do, -is the unusualness of such claims being made by people professing to be in the 2x2s.
After all, they are unusual claims. Do you deny that those professing have always believed in the actual "resurrection of Jesus?"
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 23, 2020 23:22:31 GMT -5
I have told you that I have been reading your posts since you first started on this subject. It was your repeated insistence that " Christianity is not religion" that caused me to answer your posts to begin with. It's a common trait of cultic groups to redefine themselves with respect to the normal dictionary definitions of words, so as to emphasize that they are an exception to all other groups. This is why the also frequently are disturbed when other people describe them using normally accepted dictionary words, because it destroys the perceived sacredness of their subculture vocabulary. One of my college professors published a copy of a paper that I wrote on this among the 2x2's.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 23, 2020 23:48:38 GMT -5
I have told you that I have been reading your posts since you first started on this subject. It was your repeated insistence that " Christianity is not religion" that caused me to answer your posts to begin with. It's a common trait of cultic groups to redefine themselves with respect to the normal dictionary definitions of words, so as to emphasize that they are an exception to all other groups. This is why the also frequently are disturbed when other people describe them using normally accepted dictionary words, because it destroys the perceived sacredness of their subculture vocabulary. One of my college professors published a copy of a paper that I wrote on this among the 2x2's. Bob, -could you put your paper here on the forum? Or is that no allowed?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 24, 2020 0:08:26 GMT -5
It's a common trait of cultic groups to redefine themselves with respect to the normal dictionary definitions of words, so as to emphasize that they are an exception to all other groups. This is why the also frequently are disturbed when other people describe them using normally accepted dictionary words, because it destroys the perceived sacredness of their subculture vocabulary. One of my college professors published a copy of a paper that I wrote on this among the 2x2's. Bob, -could you put your paper here on the forum? Or is that no allowed?It's allowed, but I have no idea where I'd get a copy of it now. It's been half a century since it's been published. But I learned that at least two professing college English professors read it in the journal. One was in Australia, who sent copies to people in Western Canada. The other one I met by accident at convention when he recognized my name as being the same as the person who wrote the paper. Small paper, no money, but if got a very good grade for it.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 24, 2020 2:06:21 GMT -5
Bob, -could you put your paper here on the forum? Or is that no allowed? It's allowed, but I have no idea where I'd get a copy of it now. It's been half a century since it's been published. But I learned that at least two professing college English professors read it in the journal. One was in Australia, who sent copies to people in Western Canada. The other one I met by accident at convention when he recognized my name as being the same as the person who wrote the paper. Small paper, no money, but if got a very good grade for it. Too bad. I'd like to read it.
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Post by chuck on Jul 24, 2020 2:44:43 GMT -5
I have told you that I have been reading your posts since you first started on this subject. It was your repeated insistence that " Christianity is not religion" that caused me to answer your posts to begin with. It's a common trait of cultic groups to redefine themselves with respect to the normal dictionary definitions of words, so as to emphasize that they are an exception to all other groups. This is why the also frequently are disturbed when other people describe them using normally accepted dictionary words, because it destroys the perceived sacredness of their subculture vocabulary. One of my college professors published a copy of a paper that I wrote on this among the 2x2's. I am not a cult. And I am defining what the scriptures mean to the Hebrew people, not redefining for a group.
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Post by chuck on Jul 24, 2020 3:30:32 GMT -5
Yes, just like you. Back up your statement. What does what a 2x2 believes have to do with this. I have never used the miracles of Jesus as some sort of authority in my discussions with you. Why are you pivoting the conversation to it?. As a Atheists is the same As a 2x2, or As a whatever. To me a Atheists can show the Character of Christ just like any other so what's your point?. If you don't want me to make assumptions change the language surrounding 2x2's and THE TRUTH. The tone is you are not happy with the answers I give you given I come under the 2x2 banner, you instead should care that I care about People, not 2x2ism and what it believes Running is not the answer, kicking me out is not the answer. A label is not the answer. Grace, Compassion, Slow to anger, Abounding in Love is the answer. Instead of concerning youself with my personal situation put that time into understanding True Christianity is not religion and how a Atheists can shine their light just as good as proclaimed Christians! 😉. Yes, -I make statements, -but unlike you I am NOT saying, "Yep, I'm professing." That is the difference in "what a 2x2 believes have to do with this."
You have used the "miracles of Jesus" many times in your posts right from the beginning. Why am I now to one that "pivoting" away from the subject?
I have told you that I have been reading your posts since you first started on this subject. It was your repeated insistence that " Christianity is not religion" that caused me to answer your posts to begin with.
Did you not want any comments to your posts?
As for your "personal situation," -isn't that plain in your posts? My only interest in your "situation" -still professing but also holding the beliefs that you do, -is the unusualness of such claims being made by people professing to be in the 2x2s.
After all, they are unusual claims. Do you deny that those professing have always believed in the actual "resurrection of Jesus?"Yes I am professing, I have never used that as some sort of authority. Its a proclamation, that's it. It carries no weight unless it's true. Again, I have never used the Miracles of Jesus as a argument or as a authority ever. So what is your point and why keep bringing it up as if I do?. Its also pivoting away from me calling you out for having no common decency to have a normal dialogue and being hypocrital in saying you have no wish to discuss the bible right after you ask me a question about the bible and the whole topic has been on the bible, and then you topped it of with your fall back line of you dont have to answer anything. Well no you dont but is this how you conduct your conversations face to face, it is bordering on obnoxious behaviour. I can handle you do not agree with me, I think no less of you if you do, but shunning my questions continously in our dialogue is not curteous at all. "True Christianity" is the term I used, and I would like you to explain how showing the Character of Christ is religous?. I did also ask you this a while ago by the way. Yes I do want you to comment as I do enjoy our discussions, Just because we dont agree does not mean I want them to end. I'll say it again, professing is a proclamation, nothing more. What I do not believe is 2x2ism. Yes I do make unusual claims for "professing" person who does not bow to 2x2ism anymore. I still proffess I believe in Christ, it holds no weight unless it's true. And I'm not the judge of that and will not boast in professing as if that is true and those unproffessing are any lesser human beings than I. No different to your proclamation your a Atheists, from were I sit and the little I know of you your anything but and doing a terrible job at it 😁. Do you defend the cause for the poor and the needy?. No I don't deny it. But if that is the reason to believe in Christ IMO they have missed the point and is highly degrading to Christ because generally Its believe in the literal resurection so you don't go to hell. Well I'm sorry but that's just made up to control people.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 24, 2020 6:08:08 GMT -5
Yes, -I make statements, -but unlike you I am NOT saying, "Yep, I'm professing." That is the difference in "what a 2x2 believes have to do with this."
You have used the "miracles of Jesus" many times in your posts right from the beginning. Why am I now to one that "pivoting" away from the subject?
I have told you that I have been reading your posts since you first started on this subject. It was your repeated insistence that " Christianity is not religion" that caused me to answer your posts to begin with.
Did you not want any comments to your posts?
As for your "personal situation," -isn't that plain in your posts? My only interest in your "situation" -still professing but also holding the beliefs that you do, -is the unusualness of such claims being made by people professing to be in the 2x2s.
After all, they are unusual claims. Do you deny that those professing have always believed in the actual "resurrection of Jesus?" Yes I am professing, I have never used that as some sort of authority. Its a proclamation, that's it. It carries no weight unless it's true. Again, I have never used the Miracles of Jesus as a argument or as a authority ever. So what is your point and why keep bringing it up as if I do?. Its also pivoting away from me calling you out for having no common decency to have a normal dialogue and being hypocrital in saying you have no wish to discuss the bible right after you ask me a question about the bible and the whole topic has been on the bible, and then you topped it of with your fall back line of you dont have to answer anything. Well no you dont but is this how you conduct your conversations face to face, it is bordering on obnoxious behaviour. I can handle you do not agree with me, I think no less of you if you do, but shunning my questions continously in our dialogue is not curteous at all. "True Christianity" is the term I used, and I would like you to explain how showing the Character of Christ is religous?. I did also ask you this a while ago by the way. Yes I do want you to comment as I do enjoy our discussions, Just because we dont agree does not mean I want them to end. I'll say it again, professing is a proclamation, nothing more. What I do not believe is 2x2ism. Yes I do make unusual claims for "professing" person who does not bow to 2x2ism anymore. I still proffess I believe in Christ, it holds no weight unless it's true. And I'm not the judge of that and will not boast in professing as if that is true and those unproffessing are any lesser human beings than I. No different to your proclamation your a Atheists, from were I sit and the little I know of you your anything but and doing a terrible job at it 😁. Do you defend the cause for the poor and the needy?. No I don't deny it. But if that is the reason to believe in Christ IMO they have missed the point and is highly degrading to Christ because generally Its believe in the literal resurection so you don't go to hell. Well I'm sorry but that's just made up to control people. I have told you over & over, again & again, -why I don't, -as you say, -"answer your questions," -about the meanings of individual passages of the bible, -so if you don't understand it by now it won't do much good to keep on repeating it will it?
So I won't repeat it.
As for your assessment of how I am doing my "job" as a an atheist (singular not plural- after all, I am only one person) -I would think it would be rather difficult to determine what kind of "job" anyone does as an atheist since the definition of an atheist is simply "someone who doesn't believe in a god or gods."
Have I ever claimed to believed that there is "god" anywhere in my posts?
As to your question, "Do I defend the cause for the poor and the needy?"
Absolutely!
(BTW, What has that to do with atheism?)
I "defend the cause for the poor and the needy" because I am a Humanist (capital H) and have my letter of admission to that honorable society signed by no less than Isaac Asimov himself!
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 24, 2020 15:40:08 GMT -5
It's a common trait of cultic groups to redefine themselves with respect to the normal dictionary definitions of words, so as to emphasize that they are an exception to all other groups. This is why the also frequently are disturbed when other people describe them using normally accepted dictionary words, because it destroys the perceived sacredness of their subculture vocabulary. One of my college professors published a copy of a paper that I wrote on this among the 2x2's. I am not a cult. And I am defining what the scriptures mean to the Hebrew people, not redefining for a group. Who said "you" were a cult? Who cares what the Hebrew people thought. The English language has a word for people who fit the definition, and Christianity and 2x2ism both fit the bill. This whole claptrap of it not being a religion is a fancy little spin on it not being organized -- just some little family that God reserved for himself in the world, with no religious kinds of things about it. HOGWASH. A dandelion is still a weed.
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Post by matisse on Jul 24, 2020 19:41:49 GMT -5
I have told you that I have been reading your posts since you first started on this subject. It was your repeated insistence that " Christianity is not religion" that caused me to answer your posts to begin with. It's a common trait of cultic groups to redefine themselves with respect to the normal dictionary definitions of words, so as to emphasize that they are an exception to all other groups. This is why the also frequently are disturbed when other people describe them using normally accepted dictionary words, because it destroys the perceived sacredness of their subculture vocabulary. One of my college professors published a copy of a paper that I wrote on this among the 2x2's. I referred to the 2x2's as a Christian sect in front of a professing family member one time. It didn't go over well!
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 24, 2020 20:53:59 GMT -5
It's a common trait of cultic groups to redefine themselves with respect to the normal dictionary definitions of words, so as to emphasize that they are an exception to all other groups. This is why the also frequently are disturbed when other people describe them using normally accepted dictionary words, because it destroys the perceived sacredness of their subculture vocabulary. One of my college professors published a copy of a paper that I wrote on this among the 2x2's. I referred to the 2x2's as a Christian sect in front of a professing family member one time. It didn't go over well! I'm sure it didn't. It seems that the insulting part isn't as much that such a situation/similarity exists -- it's expected that anyone who knows the system respect it by only using their denominational jargon when discussing it. I faced such a horrifying rebuke myself for such a slip. I was shocked at the viciousness of the rebuke.
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Post by chuck on Jul 28, 2020 8:15:12 GMT -5
I am not a cult. And I am defining what the scriptures mean to the Hebrew people, not redefining for a group. Who said "you" were a cult? Who cares what the Hebrew people thought. The English language has a word for people who fit the definition, and Christianity and 2x2ism both fit the bill. This whole claptrap of it not being a religion is a fancy little spin on it not being organized -- just some little family that God reserved for himself in the world, with no religious kinds of things about it. HOGWASH. A dandelion is still a weed. So your cult comment had nothing to do with me?. I know you dont care what the Hebrew people thought. Thats the whole problem. Maybe you should and recognise what is happening today because of what they thought. True Christianity isn't religion, I'm not sure what's so threatening about that. If you understood what the Hebrews were trying to relay and their progressive revelation of God you would see it's not organized (that's religion) and the little family is everyone, just some dont accept it and call it fancy spin because they cannot differentiate between a proclaimed Chrisitanity(religion) and a true Christian. In pretty sure people using Dandelions for a profit don't think they are a weed so im unsure what authority it brings to your comment. Its about as ignorant as not caring what the Hebrew people think.
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Post by openingact34 on Jul 28, 2020 12:53:28 GMT -5
Hebrew : Chuck :: Vensusian : Nathan
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Post by chuck on Jul 28, 2020 20:32:52 GMT -5
Yes I am professing, I have never used that as some sort of authority. Its a proclamation, that's it. It carries no weight unless it's true. Again, I have never used the Miracles of Jesus as a argument or as a authority ever. So what is your point and why keep bringing it up as if I do?. Its also pivoting away from me calling you out for having no common decency to have a normal dialogue and being hypocrital in saying you have no wish to discuss the bible right after you ask me a question about the bible and the whole topic has been on the bible, and then you topped it of with your fall back line of you dont have to answer anything. Well no you dont but is this how you conduct your conversations face to face, it is bordering on obnoxious behaviour. I can handle you do not agree with me, I think no less of you if you do, but shunning my questions continously in our dialogue is not curteous at all. "True Christianity" is the term I used, and I would like you to explain how showing the Character of Christ is religous?. I did also ask you this a while ago by the way. Yes I do want you to comment as I do enjoy our discussions, Just because we dont agree does not mean I want them to end. I'll say it again, professing is a proclamation, nothing more. What I do not believe is 2x2ism. Yes I do make unusual claims for "professing" person who does not bow to 2x2ism anymore. I still proffess I believe in Christ, it holds no weight unless it's true. And I'm not the judge of that and will not boast in professing as if that is true and those unproffessing are any lesser human beings than I. No different to your proclamation your a Atheists, from were I sit and the little I know of you your anything but and doing a terrible job at it 😁. Do you defend the cause for the poor and the needy?. No I don't deny it. But if that is the reason to believe in Christ IMO they have missed the point and is highly degrading to Christ because generally Its believe in the literal resurection so you don't go to hell. Well I'm sorry but that's just made up to control people. I have told you over & over, again & again, -why I don't, -as you say, -"answer your questions," -about the meanings of individual passages of the bible, -so if you don't understand it by now it won't do much good to keep on repeating it will it?
So I won't repeat it.
As for your assessment of how I am doing my "job" as a an atheist (singular not plural- after all, I am only one person) -I would think it would be rather difficult to determine what kind of "job" anyone does as an atheist since the definition of an atheist is simply "someone who doesn't believe in a god or gods."
Have I ever claimed to believed that there is "god" anywhere in my posts?
As to your question, "Do I defend the cause for the poor and the needy?"
Absolutely!
(BTW, What has that to do with atheism?)
I "defend the cause for the poor and the needy" because I am a Humanist (capital H) and have my letter of admission to that honorable society signed by no less than Isaac Asimov himself!
I know why you won't answer, as you say you've told me many times. Im just calling you out for hiding behind your reasons but yet still wanting to pass judgement and opinion on the scriptures with a get out clause. That's a cop-out. You can't eat your cake and have it. Why is it so hard to differentiate between a proclamation and a truth manifested in peoples lives. You do not act like your proclamation is all Im saying. To know God is to defend the cause of the needy. You can proclaim what ever you wish(atheist, christian, muslim ect) but that misses the whole point in the narrative of Scripture. Religion has given you a image or images of a god or gods that you now reject but you still base your rejection and world view on those images, otherwise why the need for a Atheist proclamation. If defending the cause of the needy is knowing God you need to ask what is God, because it definitely is not what you once believed, but now do not believe and have to proclaim atheism. In a nutshell Im saying you suck as a atheist because your actions are of God and their is no hint of religion involved in your actions surrounding the needy. I'm not here to tell you what you should believe, but I will tell you that your disbelief in God is severely misguided for all the reasons that brought you to not believe in a God. Proclamation does not make something true. It should show what is already true. So proclamation has it place as long as it backs up what is true. If someone proclaims their a Christian but is doing something to harm another, what weight does their proclamation carry?. All it does is offend the Idea of true Christianity. I look at your Atheism the same way. Your letter of admission shows your defending images of God, yet your proclamation says otherwise. I'd prefer to look at your actions, not your proclamation. One way to look at scripture is The Hebrew people 'feel' thoughts. The Greeks 'think' thoughts. We are Greeks. And you wonder why the scriptures have been butchered. Interpretation has not helped as Greek could not bring across the Hebrew concepts and feelings.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 29, 2020 3:43:30 GMT -5
I know why you won't answer, as you say you've told me many times. Im just calling you out for hiding behind your reasons but yet still wanting to pass judgement and opinion on the scriptures with a get out clause. That's a cop-out. You can't eat your cake and have it. Why is it so hard to differentiate between a proclamation and a truth manifested in peoples lives. You do not act like your proclamation is all Im saying.To know God is to defend the cause of the needy. You can proclaim what ever you wish(atheist, christian, muslim ect) but that misses the whole point in the narrative of Scripture. Religion has given you a image or images of a god or gods that you now reject but you still base your rejection and world view on those images, otherwise why the need for a Atheist proclamation. If defending the cause of the needy is knowing God you need to ask what is God, because it definitely is not what you once believed, but now do not believe and have to proclaim atheism. In a nutshell Im saying you suck as a atheist because your actions are of God and their is no hint of religion involved in your actions surrounding the needy. I'm not here to tell you what you should believe, but I will tell you that your disbelief in God is severely misguided for all the reasons that brought you to not believe in a God Proclamation does not make something true. It should show what is already true. So proclamation has it place as long as it backs up what is true. If someone proclaims their a Christian but is doing something to harm another, what weight does their proclamation carry?. All it does is offend the Idea of true Christianity. I look at your Atheism the same way. Your letter of admission shows your defending images of God, yet your proclamation says otherwise. I'd prefer to look at your actions, not your proclamation. One way to look at scripture is The Hebrew people 'feel' thoughts. The Greeks 'think' thoughts. We are Greeks. And you wonder why the scriptures have been butchered. Interpretation has not helped as Greek could not bring across the Hebrew concepts and feelings. I have been slow to answer because that I have been at a loss to try to decipher how your reasoning works.
First of off, - in a former post you said that: "To me, (yourself) a Atheists can show the Character of Christ.".
Yet now, - you are claiming that my own statement as to being an Atheist is only a "proclamation."
Then you say this. "If defending the cause of the needy is knowing God you need to ask what is God, because it definitely is not what you once believed, but now do not believe and have to proclaim atheism."
(I am not even going to even TRY take that statement of yours apart & understand it!)
It makes no sense at all.
Why did you think that I became a Atheist? Of course I once believed a God! How many people do you think were raised not believing in a god in today's world?Very, very few!In some countries even yet today an atheist can executed!
However, I took a good look at the bible and realized it was only one of many, many considered sacred documents of the many different peoples of the world who were only trying to understand themselves and the world that they lived in. But now you have the audacity, -the rudeness and insolence to tell me this! "In a nutshell Im saying you suck as a atheist because your actions are of God and their is no hint of religion involved in your actions surrounding the needy."
(does this statement make any sense to anyone else, -or am I the only dense one here?)
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Post by chuck on Jul 29, 2020 5:38:02 GMT -5
I know why you won't answer, as you say you've told me many times. Im just calling you out for hiding behind your reasons but yet still wanting to pass judgement and opinion on the scriptures with a get out clause. That's a cop-out. You can't eat your cake and have it. Why is it so hard to differentiate between a proclamation and a truth manifested in peoples lives. You do not act like your proclamation is all Im saying. To know God is to defend the cause of the needy. You can proclaim what ever you wish(atheist, christian, muslim ect) but that misses the whole point in the narrative of Scripture. Religion has given you a image or images of a god or gods that you now reject but you still base your rejection and world view on those images, otherwise why the need for a Atheist proclamation. If defending the cause of the needy is knowing God you need to ask what is God, because it definitely is not what you once believed, but now do not believe and have to proclaim atheism. In a nutshell Im saying you suck as a atheist because your actions are of God and their is no hint of religion involved in your actions surrounding the needy. I'm not here to tell you what you should believe, but I will tell you that your disbelief in God is severely misguided for all the reasons that brought you to not believe in a God Proclamation does not make something true. It should show what is already true. So proclamation has it place as long as it backs up what is true. If someone proclaims their a Christian but is doing something to harm another, what weight does their proclamation carry?. All it does is offend the Idea of true Christianity. I look at your Atheism the same way. Your letter of admission shows your defending images of God, yet your proclamation says otherwise. I'd prefer to look at your actions, not your proclamation. One way to look at scripture is The Hebrew people 'feel' thoughts. The Greeks 'think' thoughts. We are Greeks. And you wonder why the scriptures have been butchered. Interpretation has not helped as Greek could not bring across the Hebrew concepts and feelings. I have been slow to answer because that I have been at a loss to try to decipher how your reasoning works.
First of off, - in a former post you said that: "To me, (yourself) a Atheists can show the Character of Christ.".
Yet now, - you are claiming that my own statement as to being an Atheist is only a "proclamation."
Then you say this "If defending the cause of the needy is knowing God you need to ask what is God, because it definitely is not what you once believed, but now do not believe and have to proclaim atheism."
(I am not even going to even TRY take that statement of yours apart & try to understand it!)
It makes no sense to me at all.
Why did you think that I became a Atheist? Of course I once believed a God! How many people do you think were raised not believing in a god in today's world?Very, very few!In some countries even yet today an atheist can executed!
However, I took a good look at the bible and realized it was only one of many, many considered sacred documents of the many different peoples of the world who were only trying to understand themselves and the world that they lived in.But now you have the audacity, -the rudeness and insolence to tell me this!
"You do not act like your proclamation!"
"In a nutshell Im saying you suck as a atheist because your actions are of God and their is no hint of religion involved in your actions surrounding the needy."
Atheism is a proclamation. That's why a Atheist can show the Character of Christ just as well as the next person, it can be shown by defending the cause of the needy which is knowing God. No religion within sight of a Atheist defending the cause of the needy, but yet that is what it is to know God and show the Character of Christ. So your proclamation is Just that. But your actions say otherwise. Your actions are defending images of God, and you do it without religion. Why is this threatening to suggest this is what knowing God is?. Just what did you think God was?, your image of God was created like sooo many others as you pointed out, by religion. Its no wonder people want to become Atheists. Especially if people are killing Atheists for their god. The Hebrew people defined a new way to live in the world. Not just trying to understand the one they lived in. And they recorded it. I don't see what's rude in pointing out your proclamation doesn't match your actions. It's a complement from my viewpoint. No offence intended.
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Post by chuck on Jul 29, 2020 5:43:22 GMT -5
I know why you won't answer, as you say you've told me many times. Im just calling you out for hiding behind your reasons but yet still wanting to pass judgement and opinion on the scriptures with a get out clause. That's a cop-out. You can't eat your cake and have it. Why is it so hard to differentiate between a proclamation and a truth manifested in peoples lives. You do not act like your proclamation is all Im saying.To know God is to defend the cause of the needy. You can proclaim what ever you wish(atheist, christian, muslim ect) but that misses the whole point in the narrative of Scripture. Religion has given you a image or images of a god or gods that you now reject but you still base your rejection and world view on those images, otherwise why the need for a Atheist proclamation. If defending the cause of the needy is knowing God you need to ask what is God, because it definitely is not what you once believed, but now do not believe and have to proclaim atheism. In a nutshell Im saying you suck as a atheist because your actions are of God and their is no hint of religion involved in your actions surrounding the needy. I'm not here to tell you what you should believe, but I will tell you that your disbelief in God is severely misguided for all the reasons that brought you to not believe in a God Proclamation does not make something true. It should show what is already true. So proclamation has it place as long as it backs up what is true. If someone proclaims their a Christian but is doing something to harm another, what weight does their proclamation carry?. All it does is offend the Idea of true Christianity. I look at your Atheism the same way. Your letter of admission shows your defending images of God, yet your proclamation says otherwise. I'd prefer to look at your actions, not your proclamation. One way to look at scripture is The Hebrew people 'feel' thoughts. The Greeks 'think' thoughts. We are Greeks. And you wonder why the scriptures have been butchered. Interpretation has not helped as Greek could not bring across the Hebrew concepts and feelings. I have been slow to answer because that I have been at a loss to try to decipher how your reasoning works.
First of off, - in a former post you said that: "To me, (yourself) a Atheists can show the Character of Christ.".
Yet now, - you are claiming that my own statement as to being an Atheist is only a "proclamation."
Then you say this. "If defending the cause of the needy is knowing God you need to ask what is God, because it definitely is not what you once believed, but now do not believe and have to proclaim atheism."
(I am not even going to even TRY take that statement of yours apart & understand it!)
It makes no sense at all.
Why did you think that I became a Atheist? Of course I once believed a God! How many people do you think were raised not believing in a god in today's world?
Very, very few! In some countries even yet today an atheist can executed!
However, I took a good look at the bible and realized it was only one of many, many considered sacred documents of the many different peoples of the world who were only trying to understand themselves and the world that they lived in.
But now you have the audacity , -the rudeness and insolence to tell me this!
"In a nutshell Im saying you suck as a atheist because your actions are of God and their is no hint of religion involved in your actions surrounding the needy."
Of course my proclamation "misses the whole point in the narrative of Scripture!"
I don't need your idea that the " narrative of Scripture" -to live a life concerned about the well being of others around me!No you don't need my idea. But your happy borrowing from those who have some of the original thought shown through the narrative of Scripture.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 29, 2020 7:31:45 GMT -5
Atheism is a proclamation. That's why a Atheist can show the Character of Christ just as well as the next person, it can be shown by defending the cause of the needy which is knowing God. No religion within sight of a Atheist defending the cause of the needy, but yet that is what it is to know God and show the Character of Christ. So your proclamation is Just that. But your actions say otherwise. Your actions are defending images of God, and you do it without religion. Why is this threatening to suggest this is what knowing God is?. Just what did you think God was?, your image of God was created like sooo many others as you pointed out, by religion. Its no wonder people want to become Atheists. Especially if people are killing Atheists for their god. The Hebrew people defined a new way to live in the world. Not just trying to understand the one they lived in. And they recorded it. I don't see what's rude in pointing out your proclamation doesn't match your actions. It's a complement from my viewpoint. No offence intended. You say; "Your (my) actions are defending images of God, and you do it without religion."
That statement doesn't make any no more sense then some of your other "proclamations" asserting what you think.
How can you possibly know WHAT "my actions are?"
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 29, 2020 7:55:58 GMT -5
I have been slow to answer because that I have been at a loss to try to decipher how your reasoning works.
First of off, - in a former post you said that: "To me, (yourself) a Atheists can show the Character of Christ.".
Yet now, - you are claiming that my own statement as to being an Atheist is only a "proclamation."
Then you say this. "If defending the cause of the needy is knowing God you need to ask what is God, because it definitely is not what you once believed, but now do not believe and have to proclaim atheism."
(I am not even going to even TRY take that statement of yours apart & understand it!)
It makes no sense at all.
Why did you think that I became a Atheist? Of course I once believed a God! How many people do you think were raised not believing in a god in today's world?Very, very few!In some countries even yet today an atheist can executed!
However, I took a good look at the bible and realized it was only one of many, many considered sacred documents of the many different peoples of the world who were only trying to understand themselves and the world that they lived in. But now you have the audacity, -the rudeness and insolence to tell me this: "In a nutshell Im saying you suck as a atheist because your actions are of God and their is no hint of religion involved in your actions surrounding the needy."
Of course my proclamation "misses the whole point in the narrative of Scripture!" I don't need your idea that the " narrative of Scripture" -to live a life concerned about the well being of others around me! No you don't need my idea. But your happy borrowing from those who have some of the original thought shown through the narrative of Scripture. Most beliefs in a supernatural being that all groups of people have are not so much borrowed but as it is just how people's mind work as they try to figure out what causes certain things to happen.
As an atheist, I don't believe in a "supernatural " being so therefore I don't have any need to happily "borrow" anything
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Post by maryhig on Jul 29, 2020 9:10:08 GMT -5
No you don't need my idea. But your happy borrowing from those who have some of the original thought shown through the narrative of Scripture. Most beliefs in a supernatural being that all groups of people have are not so much borrowed but as it is just how people's mind work as they try to figure out
what causes certain things to happen.
As an atheist, I don't believe in a "supernatural " being so therefore I don't have any need to happily "borrow" anything I don't have to borrow anything, or work anything out, I know the living God exists. I have no doubt whatsoever!
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Post by chuck on Jul 29, 2020 17:45:50 GMT -5
Atheism is a proclamation. That's why a Atheist can show the Character of Christ just as well as the next person, it can be shown by defending the cause of the needy which is knowing God. No religion within sight of a Atheist defending the cause of the needy, but yet that is what it is to know God and show the Character of Christ. So your proclamation is Just that. But your actions say otherwise. Your actions are defending images of God, and you do it without religion. Why is this threatening to suggest this is what knowing God is?. Just what did you think God was?, your image of God was created like sooo many others as you pointed out, by religion. Its no wonder people want to become Atheists. Especially if people are killing Atheists for their god. The Hebrew people defined a new way to live in the world. Not just trying to understand the one they lived in. And they recorded it. I don't see what's rude in pointing out your proclamation doesn't match your actions. It's a complement from my viewpoint. No offence intended. You say; "Your (my) actions are defending images of God, and you do it without religion."
That statement doesn't make any no more sense then some of your other "proclamations" asserting what you think.
How can you possibly know WHAT "my actions are?"
Of course it doesn't make sense. You have image created by religion. Yes I know you do not believe it anymore but your image remains the thing your disbelief was based and acted upon. Until you aee this I don't think you will ever get what I'm saying. No disrepect meant. You are correct I physically dont know what your actions are. But in the context of the discussion I have based my comments on your boast in humanism(again no disrepect) which I accept as being true. You obsevation is a perfect example of my whole point though. A proclamation is just that. Your actions tell the truth. Same for you ,same for a self proclaimed Christian.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 29, 2020 18:54:50 GMT -5
Most beliefs in a supernatural being that all groups of people have are not so much borrowed but as it is just how people's mind work as they try to figure out
what causes certain things to happen.
As an atheist, I don't believe in a "supernatural " being so therefore I don't have any need to happily "borrow" anything I don't have to borrow anything, or work anything out, I know the living God exists. I have no doubt whatsoever! I'm sorry, maryhig, -but every belief system, -religious or otherwise, -constantly "borrows," or takes ideas from the the people who lived before them, -just as we in the in the 2x2's did from those who broke away from the mainstream religions of their own times.
That is the reason that there are so many different religious beliefs the world over!
As to being so absolutely sure of knowing that something like a God exists, -it seems to be inherent in our human nature to not only want but really need to believe in something solid, -something that we consider firm and stable, - something that seems well grounded and presents itself as reasonable & logical·
For our own comfort it s easier to do that. But I have learned that even though it may be uncomfortable and actually painful at times, it is far better to question some ideas rather than continue to believe some things that not only hurt ourselves but actually can hurt others around us.
For instance, -I am so glad that I learned that lesson BEFORE my children became of the age that they would have "professed" and were then pulled into the same trap that I had lived so much of my life.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 29, 2020 21:40:15 GMT -5
You say; "Your (my) actions are defending images of God, and you do it without religion."
That statement doesn't make any no more sense then some of your other "proclamations" asserting what you think.
How can you possibly know WHAT "my actions are?"
Of course it doesn't make sense. You have image created by religion. Yes I know you do not believe it anymore but your image remains the thing your disbelief was based and acted upon. Until you see this I don't think you will ever get what I'm saying. No disrepect meant. You are correct I physically dont know what your actions are. But in the context of the discussion I have based my comments on your boast in humanism(again no disrepect) which I accept as being true. You obsevation is a perfect example of my whole point though You obsevation is a perfect example of my whole point though. A proclamation is just that. Your actions tell the truth. Same for you ,same for a self proclaimed Christian. What amazes me is how that you seem to believe that the conclusions that you have come to should also the the same ones that we should have done.
You claim that my images were "created by religion."
So, -yours wasn't?!
You have no idea of my own journey through this life, or my thought processes & conclusions that I came to along the way' -yet think that you can tell me what I believe and even WHY I should believe it!
Forget your comment about "No disrepect meant."!
That is extremely disrespectful!
As is your calling my statement about being a Humanist a "boast!"
You keep talking about other people's proclamations; -would you please state in plain English what your own proclamation of yourself to be?
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Post by chuck on Jul 30, 2020 3:43:07 GMT -5
Of course it doesn't make sense. You have image created by religion. Yes I know you do not believe it anymore but your image remains the thing your disbelief was based and acted upon. Until you see this I don't think you will ever get what I'm saying. No disrepect meant. You are correct I physically dont know what your actions are. But in the context of the discussion I have based my comments on your boast in humanism(again no disrepect) which I accept as being true. You obsevation is a perfect example of my whole point though You obsevation is a perfect example of my whole point though. A proclamation is just that. Your actions tell the truth. Same for you ,same for a self proclaimed Christian. What amazes me is how that you seem to believe that the conclusions that you have come to should also the the same ones that we should have done.
You claim that my images were "created by religion."
So, -yours wasn't?!
You have no idea of my own journey through this life, or my thought processes & conclusions that I came to along the way' -yet think that you can tell me what I believe and even WHY I should believe it!
Forget your comment about "No disrepect meant."!
That is extremely disrespectful!
As is your calling my statement about being a Humanist a "boast!"
You keep talking about other people's proclamations; -would you please state in plain English what your own proclamation of yourself to be?
No that's not right, I want you to understand how I come to those conclusions, that I am having trouble conveying. This is why I say imagery/ now disbelief is the block to understanding my view. Yep my image was created by religion, just like most westerners, how could it not be, its been around for centuries. I know have thrown that imagery in the bin but. I don't really have any imagery for God, that's why I see God when someone defends the cause of the needy, regardless of what they claim they are. No religion involved, no religion needed. Which is why I ask again, what is religous about displaying the Character of Christ?. Well here's your chance to correct me. What was your image of god?. Your easily offended. Boasting could be satisfaction in your Achievements, are you saying your not satisfied in your humanistic efforts, I hardly see why you would bother to mention it if you were not satisfied. I knew you would take offence by the way, which points out how easily one could arrive at a different conclusion from the same word. It was in no way offensive to call it a boast. I didn't make it offensive..... I said it in a way that honoured you humanism. Maybe the scriptures could also be just as easily read the wrong way when we don't understand the feelings the Hebrew people thought and recorded in scripture. It would be offensive however if you didn't live up to your boast. Like many Christians!. I proclaim to try and act as if there is a God. I proclaim to try and have the Character of Christ.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 30, 2020 9:21:05 GMT -5
I don't have to borrow anything, or work anything out, I know the living God exists. I have no doubt whatsoever! I'm sorry, maryhig, -but every belief system, -religious or otherwise, -constantly "borrows," or takes ideas from the the people who lived before them, -just as we in the in the 2x2's did from those who broke away from the mainstream religions of their own times.
That is the reason that there are so many different religious beliefs the world over!
As to being so absolutely sure of knowing that something like a God exists, -it seems to be inherent in our human nature to not only want but really need to believe in something solid, -something that we consider firm and stable, - something that seems well grounded and presents itself as reasonable & logical·
For our own comfort it s easier to do that. But I have learned that even though it may be uncomfortable and actually painful at times, it is far better to question some ideas rather than continue to believe some things that not only hurt ourselves but actually can hurt others around us.
For instance, -I am so glad that I learned that lesson BEFORE my children became of the age that they would have "professed" and were then pulled into the same trap that I had lived so much of my life.
No really DMG I know God exists, I'm not just thinking he might exist, I know. I've had proof with things that have happened in my life. It's not imaginary but real proof. And I really have no doubt at all, I know he's there.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 30, 2020 17:02:10 GMT -5
I'm sorry, maryhig, -but every belief system, -religious or otherwise, -constantly "borrows," or takes ideas from the the people who lived before them, -just as we in the in the 2x2's did from those who broke away from the mainstream religions of their own times.
That is the reason that there are so many different religious beliefs the world over!
As to being so absolutely sure of knowing that something like a God exists, -it seems to be inherent in our human nature to not only want but really need to believe in something solid, -something that we consider firm and stable, - something that seems well grounded and presents itself as reasonable & logical·
For our own comfort it s easier to do that. But I have learned that even though it may be uncomfortable and actually painful at times, it is far better to question some ideas rather than continue to believe some things that not only hurt ourselves but actually can hurt others around us.
For instance, -I am so glad that I learned that lesson BEFORE my children became of the age that they would have "professed" and were then pulled into the same trap that I had lived so much of my life.
No really DMG I know God exists, I'm not just thinking he might exist, I know. I've had proof with things that have happened in my life. It's not imaginary but real proof. And I really have no doubt at all, I know he's there. You're not the only one.
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