magpies39plus
Senior Member
WHY? Does quoting relevant scripture send the 2x2;s into sometimes a nasty response??
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Post by magpies39plus on Jul 6, 2020 18:25:58 GMT -5
The most judgmental sect I have encountered. Hold people in bondage as the Hasidic Jewish women that shave their heads,Jesus told them they were released from that bondage. "BUT" Irvine placed that bondage to the 2x2 women in reverse. A lady was refered to as of worldly appearance because she had shorter hair than the Irvinites demanded. He was told that it was short because of medical reason. But he didn't say I understand "NO" the nasty reply was"Well she is of worldly appearance". Not long after that she,fellowshiped with a very theologically soundlocal congregation(who believe in the Deity of Jesus and the Holy (God's)Spirit). Why "She was made to know she no longer belonged to the Preacher only{which is extremely unbiblical Eph 4=v,11-12}ministry. Magpie..Hi Redback,This lady was hit with family and friends rejection and "gossip". If she had left to go worldly they would accept that as it is no challenge to the sect's limited theology.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jul 6, 2020 18:30:04 GMT -5
That's true, but once we belong to Christ and start to live by the will of God, then vanity should be dying within our hearts and we shouldn't worry about what we look like on the outside. We only do ourselves up for the flesh, not for God. And also, I've noticed a lot of judgement here towards the 2x2s for having buns etc. Those doing this are doing what they are accusing the 2x2s of doing. And I'm talking about myself now, and not anyone else when I say this. Because in our meeting they live and speak by what Jesus and the apostles taught in the Bible, but they don't force anyone to do anything. So my conscience was pricked by what I heard and read, and I've stopped wearing make up and colouring my hair and wearing jewellery etc. Because to me it's vanity and I don't believe that it's right before God, so I've stopped doing it. We don't have to wear buns etc. although my hair is long and I don't worry about what I look like on the outside anymore, I care more about living right before God. I think Peter and Paul speak well regarding a woman's appearance. 1 Peter 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. And here's Paul speaking in 1 Timothy 1 Timothy 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Hi maryhig , thanks for your comments. Outward appearance and inner spiritual life is something I continue to ponder because of past and present experience. Your admonition is right - we shouldn't swing the pendulum the other way against others because they do wear a bun. We should not make fun of those who look different because of religious conviction. Many are convicted to do what is right in their own conscience, and many others are deeply influenced by their cultural and religious ties. Often is it a complex combination of both. The Bible speaks to this too - let each be fully persuaded in his own mind (as to how people observe their own convictions). I spent some time in Jerusalem last year, possibly the most religious city in the world. I was fascinated by the religious dress I saw there, particularly among orthodox Jews. The men with their long tassles, fur hats, long coats, ringlets (payot) in front of their ears. Culturally, their piety must be expressed externally. Is it real? Are their hearts turned towards God? We cannot know. But Jesus condemned the externals of long prayers and tassles in the market place because they had become a show of piety rather than true faith. I've just finished studying the Book of Acts with Bible Study Fellowship (BSF). In the New Testament there was not one group of true believers, but many different groups from differing cultural groups and backgrounds. Jewish Christians, who continued to hold to their circumcision and food laws. Gentile Christians who enjoyed their liberty in Christ but were sometimes condemned by the Jewish Christians for not obeying Jewish laws to be "clean" before God. Even Pharisee Christians (Acts 15:5) who were greatly distressed that new believers did not hold to the law of Moses concerning circumcision. Our cultural and religious backgrounds bring about religious baggage and hang-ups - we have to learn to be considerate of our deeply held differences and convictions with love - both within our own church communities and towards other church communities/ other Christians. The Peter and Timothy passages you quoted hold the most important principle - be known to others not by your outward appearance, but by your manner of life/works/heart.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2020 22:37:15 GMT -5
www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/cutting-ties-with-a-cult-it-s-a-grief-i-will-carry-for-lifeWhen Christina Rasmussen left the cult-like fundamentalist Christian organisation she’d lived in for 43 years, she knew it would be tough to find her place on the outside. But nothing prepared her for the loneliness of being shut off by her family and friends.
“It's a grief I will carry with me for the rest of my life. There are just no words to describe what it is to lose every person you love. Some days, the grief… is overwhelming,” Ms Rasmussen told Insight guest host, Alice Matthews.
Rasmussen, 46, was born into the group, which outsiders refer to variously as ‘Two-by-Twos’, ‘Workers and Friends’, ‘Cooneyites’ or ‘The Truth’ church. Members don’t refer to the group by any name, believing it’s the only true religion from the time of Christ, and that theirs is the ‘only true way.’
“Life … is incredibly controlled… from who you marry, where you live, your occupation, how you’re educated… to what you wear. Women [must] dress very modestly, no nail polish, no haircuts. TV, radio, music and dancing [are not allowed],” Rasmussen said of life in the organisation.
The group has members world-wide, mostly in Australia, New Zealand and the USA. Rasmussen said that she now knows it started about a century ago, in Ireland.
“My family’s been in it for five generations, since the end of [the nineteenth] century when all of my family belonged to it, great-great-grandparents, great-grandparents and so forth… So there’s a huge sense of belonging because that's all you know and that's where your family is.”
Six years ago, things started to change for Rasmussen, when she realised that she could no longer belong as a “cult woman.”
“The only way you can live in that community is pretending to be somebody you're not…denying who you are and what your values are,” Rasmussen told Insight.
At 40, Rasmussen embarked on a path of self-discovery, prompted by decades of abuse, secrecy and cover-ups she said she endured and witnessed within the organisation.
“With the advent of the internet, it became clearer that… the doctrine that was being preached was actually a lie. So there was a huge cover-up about doctrine, there was a huge cover-up about money, there was a huge cover-up about abuses within the cult,” she said. “Discovering that what I believed in was a lie, but also how I'd been living was a lie, (that) led me out.”
Since she left the group three years ago, Rasmussen has had little contact with the family and the friends she left behind.
“People on the inside… feel that you're bitter or that you're unwilling to follow the rules of that organisation or that you're a troublemaker or that you're evil, or … an evil spirit has influenced you.”
Followers were told if they left, they’d be struck down by illness, or injured in an accident.
Rasmussen has spent years in therapy, and she’s recently been diagnosed with cervical cancer. She told Insight that she knows her cancer wasn’t caused by her leaving the organisation. But she said those fear-laden messages have taken their mental toll.
University of Wollongong’s Associate Professor, Mitch Byrne, is a clinical and forensic psychologist. He told Insight that the effects on someone of feeling like they don’t belong can be devastating to their health.
“When you feel excluded… exiled, you feel different and that causes stress and has a physiological effect upon you. This can lead to medical problems, psychiatric problems,” Mitch Byrne explained.
Christina Rasmussen said finding a new “tribe” to belong to has been difficult, but that those challenges have been balanced out by the freedoms she now enjoys in the outside world.
And, she stressed, she’ll never go back.
“That sense of belonging comes from within yourself. Being true to who you are, and your values, is so important. So, to go back to a place where you can't be true [to yourself] is impossible.” In other words, a prisoner of her own mind and making.
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Post by ellie on Jul 7, 2020 6:18:01 GMT -5
www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/cutting-ties-with-a-cult-it-s-a-grief-i-will-carry-for-lifeWhen Christina Rasmussen left the cult-like fundamentalist Christian organisation she’d lived in for 43 years, she knew it would be tough to find her place on the outside. But nothing prepared her for the loneliness of being shut off by her family and friends.
“It's a grief I will carry with me for the rest of my life. There are just no words to describe what it is to lose every person you love. Some days, the grief… is overwhelming,” Ms Rasmussen told Insight guest host, Alice Matthews.
Rasmussen, 46, was born into the group, which outsiders refer to variously as ‘Two-by-Twos’, ‘Workers and Friends’, ‘Cooneyites’ or ‘The Truth’ church. Members don’t refer to the group by any name, believing it’s the only true religion from the time of Christ, and that theirs is the ‘only true way.’
“Life … is incredibly controlled… from who you marry, where you live, your occupation, how you’re educated… to what you wear. Women [must] dress very modestly, no nail polish, no haircuts. TV, radio, music and dancing [are not allowed],” Rasmussen said of life in the organisation.
The group has members world-wide, mostly in Australia, New Zealand and the USA. Rasmussen said that she now knows it started about a century ago, in Ireland.
“My family’s been in it for five generations, since the end of [the nineteenth] century when all of my family belonged to it, great-great-grandparents, great-grandparents and so forth… So there’s a huge sense of belonging because that's all you know and that's where your family is.”
Six years ago, things started to change for Rasmussen, when she realised that she could no longer belong as a “cult woman.”
“The only way you can live in that community is pretending to be somebody you're not…denying who you are and what your values are,” Rasmussen told Insight.
At 40, Rasmussen embarked on a path of self-discovery, prompted by decades of abuse, secrecy and cover-ups she said she endured and witnessed within the organisation.
“With the advent of the internet, it became clearer that… the doctrine that was being preached was actually a lie. So there was a huge cover-up about doctrine, there was a huge cover-up about money, there was a huge cover-up about abuses within the cult,” she said. “Discovering that what I believed in was a lie, but also how I'd been living was a lie, (that) led me out.”
Since she left the group three years ago, Rasmussen has had little contact with the family and the friends she left behind.
“People on the inside… feel that you're bitter or that you're unwilling to follow the rules of that organisation or that you're a troublemaker or that you're evil, or … an evil spirit has influenced you.”
Followers were told if they left, they’d be struck down by illness, or injured in an accident.
Rasmussen has spent years in therapy, and she’s recently been diagnosed with cervical cancer. She told Insight that she knows her cancer wasn’t caused by her leaving the organisation. But she said those fear-laden messages have taken their mental toll.
University of Wollongong’s Associate Professor, Mitch Byrne, is a clinical and forensic psychologist. He told Insight that the effects on someone of feeling like they don’t belong can be devastating to their health.
“When you feel excluded… exiled, you feel different and that causes stress and has a physiological effect upon you. This can lead to medical problems, psychiatric problems,” Mitch Byrne explained.
Christina Rasmussen said finding a new “tribe” to belong to has been difficult, but that those challenges have been balanced out by the freedoms she now enjoys in the outside world.
And, she stressed, she’ll never go back.
“That sense of belonging comes from within yourself. Being true to who you are, and your values, is so important. So, to go back to a place where you can't be true [to yourself] is impossible.” In other words, a prisoner of her own mind and making. Arguably, these days, that's the mechanism by which the unspoken rules and doctrine of the fellowship are maintained. I have not watched the show, but it does sound like she is moving on from the former prison.
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Post by chuck on Jul 7, 2020 10:24:11 GMT -5
Blah, blah, blah. Boring talk. I think what we all want to know is how she was dressed. Probably looking pretty worldly and shameless, right? All these exes leave so they can chop their hair short, pierce their ears, and look like the worldling women. So spill the dirt! I knew that when I left that there would be some people who would just be waiting to see how soon that I would cut my hair and start wearing make-up etc.
It was an almost perverse deliberate desire on my part to behave in a way that would not give them that satisfaction! I find it amusing that a hair cut or make up stops their god(2x2ism) in his tracks, I thought he was all powerful!.
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Post by chuck on Jul 7, 2020 10:25:58 GMT -5
www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/cutting-ties-with-a-cult-it-s-a-grief-i-will-carry-for-lifeWhen Christina Rasmussen left the cult-like fundamentalist Christian organisation she’d lived in for 43 years, she knew it would be tough to find her place on the outside. But nothing prepared her for the loneliness of being shut off by her family and friends.
“It's a grief I will carry with me for the rest of my life. There are just no words to describe what it is to lose every person you love. Some days, the grief… is overwhelming,” Ms Rasmussen told Insight guest host, Alice Matthews.
Rasmussen, 46, was born into the group, which outsiders refer to variously as ‘Two-by-Twos’, ‘Workers and Friends’, ‘Cooneyites’ or ‘The Truth’ church. Members don’t refer to the group by any name, believing it’s the only true religion from the time of Christ, and that theirs is the ‘only true way.’
“Life … is incredibly controlled… from who you marry, where you live, your occupation, how you’re educated… to what you wear. Women [must] dress very modestly, no nail polish, no haircuts. TV, radio, music and dancing [are not allowed],” Rasmussen said of life in the organisation.
The group has members world-wide, mostly in Australia, New Zealand and the USA. Rasmussen said that she now knows it started about a century ago, in Ireland.
“My family’s been in it for five generations, since the end of [the nineteenth] century when all of my family belonged to it, great-great-grandparents, great-grandparents and so forth… So there’s a huge sense of belonging because that's all you know and that's where your family is.”
Six years ago, things started to change for Rasmussen, when she realised that she could no longer belong as a “cult woman.”
“The only way you can live in that community is pretending to be somebody you're not…denying who you are and what your values are,” Rasmussen told Insight.
At 40, Rasmussen embarked on a path of self-discovery, prompted by decades of abuse, secrecy and cover-ups she said she endured and witnessed within the organisation.
“With the advent of the internet, it became clearer that… the doctrine that was being preached was actually a lie. So there was a huge cover-up about doctrine, there was a huge cover-up about money, there was a huge cover-up about abuses within the cult,” she said. “Discovering that what I believed in was a lie, but also how I'd been living was a lie, (that) led me out.”
Since she left the group three years ago, Rasmussen has had little contact with the family and the friends she left behind.
“People on the inside… feel that you're bitter or that you're unwilling to follow the rules of that organisation or that you're a troublemaker or that you're evil, or … an evil spirit has influenced you.”
Followers were told if they left, they’d be struck down by illness, or injured in an accident.
Rasmussen has spent years in therapy, and she’s recently been diagnosed with cervical cancer. She told Insight that she knows her cancer wasn’t caused by her leaving the organisation. But she said those fear-laden messages have taken their mental toll.
University of Wollongong’s Associate Professor, Mitch Byrne, is a clinical and forensic psychologist. He told Insight that the effects on someone of feeling like they don’t belong can be devastating to their health.
“When you feel excluded… exiled, you feel different and that causes stress and has a physiological effect upon you. This can lead to medical problems, psychiatric problems,” Mitch Byrne explained.
Christina Rasmussen said finding a new “tribe” to belong to has been difficult, but that those challenges have been balanced out by the freedoms she now enjoys in the outside world.
And, she stressed, she’ll never go back.
“That sense of belonging comes from within yourself. Being true to who you are, and your values, is so important. So, to go back to a place where you can't be true [to yourself] is impossible.” In other words, a prisoner of her own mind and making. No, It's called bondage and spiritual abuse. It's darkness!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2020 11:32:06 GMT -5
Openingact34, I find your comments about ex's leave to cut their hair and wear makeup to be one of the most despicable post I have seen on this board. A lot of us left because of the dishonesty and and outright lies perpetrated by workers and friends.
I left meeting 8 years ago but when I went to a gospel meeting not to long ago I was ask about my meeting, this also happened after a funeral 4 years ago. I have not changed my appearance or how I live my life since I left meeting. I am comfortable with who I am and have no need to change it. I do not look down on those who have change their appearance.
Appearances can be deceiving. I went to meeting at a home where the wife was having and affair with the older brother worker in the area and she dressed like a perfect "Professing wife." She did not show love, kindness, compassion or hospitality toward those in her meeting like it is REQUIRED in the BIBLE of an elder or bishop's wife. Unfortunate I have know a great number of women in the "Truth" like this.
I would rather have fellowship with a short haired woman in a pair of pants then most sister workers and "professing women" who have no humility, meekness or compassion for their fellow humans.
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Post by ForeverFree on Jul 7, 2020 16:51:19 GMT -5
I knew that when I left that there would be some people who would just be waiting to see how soon that I would cut my hair and start wearing make-up etc.
It was an almost perverse deliberate desire on my part to behave in a way that would not give them that satisfaction! I find it amusing that a hair cut or make up stops their god(2x2ism) in his tracks, I thought he was all powerful!. Stops their god in his tracks or stops the workers in their tracks. But then some see these as almost one and the same anyway.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 10, 2020 6:05:21 GMT -5
But outward change is a sign of inward change! As Jesus said, wash the inside of the cup and platter and the outside may be clean also. Once the heart is being cleansed then our life and ways should be changing to be more like that of Jesus. You mention changed ways rather than appearance, and I would agree. Matthew 23 is a very revealing chapter (the cup and platter reference); Jesus' point here is that the heart cannot be judged by outward appearance. Rather, we can make ourselves look very holy on the outside with no change on the inside. "In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness."
Learning to wear the right clothes, have the right look, wear the bun, forgo jewellery is nothing more than learned behaviour and conformity. It has nothing to do with true holiness. It can also cause pride and judgement against others who do not look the same. I can remember many unfortunate incidents where workers denounced minor infractions of outward appearance while crushing inward spirits. Can outward appearance be a sign of inward change? Sure - Mark 5:15. A man previously possessed by demons was now dressed and in his right mind. What an outward change! But simply to normal appearance instead of a raving naked man. Being clothed and in our right mind is a good benchmark for outward appearance. Let all else be changed behaviour showing true holiness. But, once we start changing within, then our outward appearance should be changing as vanity starts to go. To do ourselves up outwardly is for ourselves not God. But, we shouldn't judge or condemn people because of what they wear. I'm not perfect myself so I can't judge anyone. The only way to judge is by the word of God.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 10, 2020 6:10:48 GMT -5
Tortured endlessly in molten sulfur? What? Where did you get that from? Brimstone is molten sulfur, if you've seen the many references to brimstone. It is a particularly nasty torture method, but apparently one of God's favorites. Revelation 14 is a good example: "he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night" The exes favorite website, GotQuestions.org explains: "When God finally abolishes sin and death, all sinners will be condemned to the worst possible fate, described in the Bible using the most horrific terms." Sorry I don't see that as you do. The book of revelation is spiritual.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 10, 2020 6:20:47 GMT -5
That's true, but once we belong to Christ and start to live by the will of God, then vanity should be dying within our hearts and we shouldn't worry about what we look like on the outside. We only do ourselves up for the flesh, not for God. And also, I've noticed a lot of judgement here towards the 2x2s for having buns etc. Those doing this are doing what they are accusing the 2x2s of doing. And I'm talking about myself now, and not anyone else when I say this. Because in our meeting they live and speak by what Jesus and the apostles taught in the Bible, but they don't force anyone to do anything. So my conscience was pricked by what I heard and read, and I've stopped wearing make up and colouring my hair and wearing jewellery etc. Because to me it's vanity and I don't believe that it's right before God, so I've stopped doing it. We don't have to wear buns etc. although my hair is long and I don't worry about what I look like on the outside anymore, I care more about living right before God. I think Peter and Paul speak well regarding a woman's appearance. 1 Peter 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. And here's Paul speaking in 1 Timothy 1 Timothy 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Hi maryhig , thanks for your comments. Outward appearance and inner spiritual life is something I continue to ponder because of past and present experience. Your admonition is right - we shouldn't swing the pendulum the other way against others because they do wear a bun. We should not make fun of those who look different because of religious conviction. Many are convicted to do what is right in their own conscience, and many others are deeply influenced by their cultural and religious ties. Often is it a complex combination of both. The Bible speaks to this too - let each be fully persuaded in his own mind (as to how people observe their own convictions). I spent some time in Jerusalem last year, possibly the most religious city in the world. I was fascinated by the religious dress I saw there, particularly among orthodox Jews. The men with their long tassles, fur hats, long coats, ringlets (payot) in front of their ears. Culturally, their piety must be expressed externally. Is it real? Are their hearts turned towards God? We cannot know. But Jesus condemned the externals of long prayers and tassles in the market place because they had become a show of piety rather than true faith. I've just finished studying the Book of Acts with Bible Study Fellowship (BSF). In the New Testament there was not one group of true believers, but many different groups from differing cultural groups and backgrounds. Jewish Christians, who continued to hold to their circumcision and food laws. Gentile Christians who enjoyed their liberty in Christ but were sometimes condemned by the Jewish Christians for not obeying Jewish laws to be "clean" before God. Even Pharisee Christians (Acts 15:5) who were greatly distressed that new believers did not hold to the law of Moses concerning circumcision. Our cultural and religious backgrounds bring about religious baggage and hang-ups - we have to learn to be considerate of our deeply held differences and convictions with love - both within our own church communities and towards other church communities/ other Christians. The Peter and Timothy passages you quoted hold the most important principle - be known to others not by your outward appearance, but by your manner of life/works/heart. That's true what you say about the verses in Peter and Timothy, but they do clearly tell us not to do ourselves up outwardly, but rather live right before God an have the true jewels and covering inwardly and outwardly, which is the fruit of the Spirit bringing the love of God and life of Christ to others. Doing ourselves up outwardly is vanity, and vanity isn't a fruit from God, it's a fleshly desire and we do this to please ourselves and others. Once we know God, then the outward appearance should start to mean less and less to us as we die to self, and live by the will of God, as Christ grows in our hearts.
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funone
Junior Member
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Post by funone on Jul 11, 2020 9:37:37 GMT -5
Way to much concern has been placed on “ doing ones self up.” I like what Ephesians 5:29 says about nourishing and cherishing. In my opinion some make it a point to look “ undone” and appear frumpy and dumpy in the name of religion. This is not correct either. Care about yourself. Allow yourself to believe that you are cherished.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 11, 2020 15:25:54 GMT -5
RE: "Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price" (1 Peter 3:3–4 KJV).
Peter used an idiom in this passage to minimize one thing and emphasize another. He placed the emphasis on inward adorning but did not forbid outward adornment. Summarized, his message was that the inner man is far more important than the outer. This same type idiom was used in 1 John 3:18. Today we might express this parallelism using "not only … but also;" as in, "Let not a woman's adorning be [only] that of outward things, such as fixing her hair, wearing gold, pearls, or apparel, but let it [also] be the inward adorning of a kind heart and tender spirit." Failing to take into consideration the idiom expressions used in Bible times led to this unnecessary, extra-biblical 2x2 rule.
Taking the King James language within the same passage, without exploring deeper, could be just as invalidly employed to forbid women from putting on clothing and wearing braids or buns. The Workers interpretation disregards the idiom, while focusing on a single item in Paul's list.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 11, 2020 15:35:29 GMT -5
RE: "Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price" (1 Peter 3:3–4 KJV). Peter used an idiom in this passage to minimize one thing and emphasize another. He placed the emphasis on inward adorning but did not forbid outward adornment. Summarized, his message was that the inner man is far more important than the outer. This same type idiom was used in 1 John 3:18. Today we might express this parallelism using "not only … but also;" as in, "Let not a woman's adorning be [only] that of outward things, such as fixing her hair, wearing gold, pearls, or apparel, but let it [also] be the inward adorning of a kind heart and tender spirit." Failing to take into consideration the idiom expressions used in Bible times led to this unnecessary, extra-biblical 2x2 rule. Taking the King James language within the same passage, without exploring deeper, could be just as invalidly employed to forbid women from putting on clothing and wearing braids or buns. The Workers interpretation disregards the idiom, while focusing on a single item in Paul's list. The endless search for absolutes instead of moderation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2020 16:35:13 GMT -5
RE: "Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price" (1 Peter 3:3–4 KJV). Peter used an idiom in this passage to minimize one thing and emphasize another. He placed the emphasis on inward adorning but did not forbid outward adornment. Summarized, his message was that the inner man is far more important than the outer. This same type idiom was used in 1 John 3:18. Today we might express this parallelism using "not only … but also;" as in, "Let not a woman's adorning be [only] that of outward things, such as fixing her hair, wearing gold, pearls, or apparel, but let it [also] be the inward adorning of a kind heart and tender spirit." Failing to take into consideration the idiom expressions used in Bible times led to this unnecessary, extra-biblical 2x2 rule. Taking the King James language within the same passage, without exploring deeper, could be just as invalidly employed to forbid women from putting on clothing and wearing braids or buns. The Workers interpretation disregards the idiom, while focusing on a single item in Paul's list. revisionist thinking....
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 11, 2020 18:05:21 GMT -5
RE: "Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price" (1 Peter 3:3–4 KJV). Peter used an idiom in this passage to minimize one thing and emphasize another. He placed the emphasis on inward adorning but did not forbid outward adornment. Summarized, his message was that the inner man is far more important than the outer. This same type idiom was used in 1 John 3:18. Today we might express this parallelism using "not only … but also;" as in, "Let not a woman's adorning be [only] that of outward things, such as fixing her hair, wearing gold, pearls, or apparel, but let it [also] be the inward adorning of a kind heart and tender spirit." Failing to take into consideration the idiom expressions used in Bible times led to this unnecessary, extra-biblical 2x2 rule. Taking the King James language within the same passage, without exploring deeper, could be just as invalidly employed to forbid women from putting on clothing and wearing braids or buns. The Workers interpretation disregards the idiom, while focusing on a single item in Paul's list. I understand what you mean, Cherie, but I'm not sure that is an example is idiom.
An idiom is a group of words established by usage as having a meaning not deducible from those of the individual words (e.g., rain cats and dogs)
Men throughout the history have attempted ( and done a very job of it) to keep women from "Doing themselves up!"
There has been a lot written on the subject as why men do this but the fact that they do indeed do so is so obvious that anyone who can't see this must be blind!
So, I will take Paul at his word as it has has been written quoted & translated to us.
One of the first things I noted in moving to this small town where there was two Apostolic churches was all the women having their hair bundled on top of their heads!
I Thought OMG!
Here I had thought by doing the same with my own hair that I was doing so because I was in the one True church!
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Post by matisse on Jul 13, 2020 9:36:31 GMT -5
RE: "Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price" (1 Peter 3:3–4 KJV). Peter used an idiom in this passage to minimize one thing and emphasize another. He placed the emphasis on inward adorning but did not forbid outward adornment. Summarized, his message was that the inner man is far more important than the outer. This same type idiom was used in 1 John 3:18. Today we might express this parallelism using "not only … but also;" as in, "Let not a woman's adorning be [only] that of outward things, such as fixing her hair, wearing gold, pearls, or apparel, but let it [also] be the inward adorning of a kind heart and tender spirit." Failing to take into consideration the idiom expressions used in Bible times led to this unnecessary, extra-biblical 2x2 rule. Taking the King James language within the same passage, without exploring deeper, could be just as invalidly employed to forbid women from putting on clothing and wearing braids or buns. The Workers interpretation disregards the idiom, while focusing on a single item in Paul's list. revisionist thinking.... Binary thinking.... (wally's, that is.)
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Post by openingact34 on Jul 13, 2020 11:02:51 GMT -5
Brimstone is molten sulfur, if you've seen the many references to brimstone. It is a particularly nasty torture method, but apparently one of God's favorites. Revelation 14 is a good example: "he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night" The exes favorite website, GotQuestions.org explains: "When God finally abolishes sin and death, all sinners will be condemned to the worst possible fate, described in the Bible using the most horrific terms." Sorry I don't see that as you do. The book of revelation is spiritual. There is nothing spiritual about torture. It is a vile book and a vile threat.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 13, 2020 12:12:57 GMT -5
Sorry I don't see that as you do. The book of revelation is spiritual. There is nothing spiritual about torture. It is a vile book and a vile threat. Well when you read the book of revelation there are things in there that clearly aren't literal. It's a spiritual book written by a strong man of God walking in the spirit. It has deeper meaning.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 13, 2020 19:52:02 GMT -5
Sorry I don't see that as you do. The book of revelation is spiritual. There is nothing spiritual about torture. It is a vile book and a vile threat. The Book of Revelation is a good example of common, popular early Christian literature. "Threat" was a definite theme.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jul 13, 2020 20:00:03 GMT -5
There is nothing spiritual about torture. It is a vile book and a vile threat. The Book of Revelation is a good example of common, popular early Christian literature. So many scholars have tried to make the Revelation relevant, and no-one has really understood it. Some say that you would need to understand the Pesher in which it was written, and to also be a Jew to have better understanding. I do not know. Some try to say Babylon was the Catholic Church, some try and say it was the Roman Empire, I have heard others say it was the British Empire.
My take is that if they don't know, I struggle to see how others would know. And yes I know about "revealed unto babes" and all that stuff, but Revelations? Really? Were the churches really churches, or were they cities? And what really were the candlesticks, and horses representing?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 13, 2020 20:30:58 GMT -5
The Book of Revelation is a good example of common, popular early Christian literature. So many scholars have tried to make the Revelation relevant, and no-one has really understood it. Some say that you would need to understand the Pesher in which it was written, and to also be a Jew to have better understanding. I do not know. Some try to say Babylon was the Catholic Church, some try and say it was the Roman Empire, I have heard others say it was the British Empire.
My take is that if they don't know, I struggle to see how others would know. And yes I know about "revealed unto babes" and all that stuff, but Revelations? Really? Were the churches really churches, or were they cities? And what really were the candlesticks, and horses representing?
There's a very interesting book about the history of the early spread of Christianity into a dominant world religion. Ehrman, Bart D. The Triumph of Christianity Simon & Schuster, New York, 2018 Quite heavy reading, but extremely well documented. There's a good review of early Christian literature that was intended to promote and define Christian beliefs. If anyone has enjoyed our recent "tangent into Christian revelation", you may find some of Ehrman's findings just as awesome and terrifying.
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Post by openingact34 on Jul 13, 2020 21:58:37 GMT -5
The Book of Revelation is a good example of common, popular early Christian literature. So many scholars have tried to make the Revelation relevant, and no-one has really understood it. Some say that you would need to understand the Pesher in which it was written, and to also be a Jew to have better understanding. I do not know. Some try to say Babylon was the Catholic Church, some try and say it was the Roman Empire, I have heard others say it was the British Empire.
My take is that if they don't know, I struggle to see how others would know. And yes I know about "revealed unto babes" and all that stuff, but Revelations? Really? Were the churches really churches, or were they cities? And what really were the candlesticks, and horses representing?
The Apocalypse of Peter is a much easier and more literal read that can give you insight into what the early Christians believed and were taught by the Apostles. 21 And I saw also another place over against that one, very squalid; and it was a place of punishment, and they that were punished and the angels that punished them had their raiment dark, according to the air of the place. 22 And some there were there hanging by their tongues; and these were they that blasphemed the way of righteousness, and under them was laid fire flaming and tormenting them.23 And there was a great lake full of flaming mire, wherein were certain men that turned away from righteousness; and angels, tormentors, were set over them.24 And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair above that mire which boiled up; and these were they that adorned themselves for adultery.And the men that were joined with them in the defilement of adultery were hanging by their feet, and had their heads hidden in the mire, and said: We believed not that we should come unto this place.25 And I saw the murderers and them that were consenting to them cast into a strait place full of evil, creeping things, and smitten by those beasts, and so turning themselves about in that torment. And upon them were set worms like clouds of darkness. And the souls of them that were murdered stood and looked upon the torment of those murderers and said: O God, righteous is thy judgement.26 And hard by that place I saw another strait place wherein the discharge and the stench of them that were in torment ran down, and there was as it were a lake there. And there sat women up to their necks in that liquor, and over against them many children which were born out of due time sat crying: and from them went forth rays of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were they that conceived out of wedlock (?) and caused abortion.27 And other men and women were being burned up to their middle and cast down in a dark place and scourged by evil spirits, and having their entrails devoured by worms that rested not. And these were they that had persecuted the righteous and delivered them up.28 And near to them again were women and men gnawing their lips and in torment, and having iron heated in the fire set against their eyes. And these were they that did blaspheme and speak evil of the way of righteousness.29 And over against these were yet others, men and women, gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths. And these were the false witnesses.30 And in another place were gravel-stones sharper than swords or any spit, heated with fire, and men and women clad in filthy rags rolled upon them in torment. And these were they that were rich and trusted in their riches, and had no pity upon orphans and widows but neglected the commandments of God.31 And in another great lake full of foul matter (pus) and blood and boiling mire stood men and women up to their knees And these were they that lent money and demanded usury upon usury.32 And other men and women being cast down from a great rock (precipice) fell (came) to the bottom, and again were driven by them that were set over them, to go up upon the rock, and thence were cast down to the bottom and had no rest from this torment. And these were they that did defile their bodies behaving as women: and the women that were with them were they that lay with one another as a man with a woman.33 And beside that rock was a place full of much fire, and there stood men which with their own hands had made images for themselves instead of God, [And beside them other men and women] having rods of fire and smiting one another and never resting from this manner of torment....34 And yet others near unto them, men and women, burning and turning themselves about and roasted as in a pan. And these were they that forsook the way of God.Try to tell me that's all spiritual and mysterious.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 13, 2020 22:11:42 GMT -5
There is nothing spiritual about torture. It is a vile book and a vile threat. Well when you read the book of revelation there are things in there that clearly aren't literal. It's a spiritual book written by a strong man of God walking in the spirit. It has deeper meaning. Maryhig, what do you believe to be "spiritual" in the book of Revelations as reason that we should pay any attention to it?
John of Patmos is stated as the one who wrote Revelations but is isn't agreed as to which John it was but it is agreed that he was exiled as a result of anti-Christian persecution probably under the Roman emperor Domitian.
John was alone without any other Christians that he could fellowship with amid a hostile environment. He perhaps felt abandoned and angry and had these "visions" which were so terrible for no other reason than the results of his situation!
All that Revelations says to me is that the poor man had simply gone mad!
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Post by maryhig on Jul 14, 2020 2:53:53 GMT -5
Well when you read the book of revelation there are things in there that clearly aren't literal. It's a spiritual book written by a strong man of God walking in the spirit. It has deeper meaning. Maryhig, what do you believe to be "spiritual" in the book of Revelations as reason that we should pay any attention to it?
John of Patmos is stated as the one who wrote Revelations but is isn't agreed as to which John it was but it is agreed that he was exiled as a result of anti-Christian persecution probably under the Roman emperor Domitian.
John was alone without any other Christians that he could fellowship with amid a hostile environment. He perhaps felt abandoned and angry and had these "visions" which were so terrible for no other reason than the results of his situation!
All that Revelations says to me is that the poor man had simply gone mad!
The whole book is spiritual, it is full of deeper meanings. And by the way, John was never alone, God was always with him, and he certainly wasn't mad. And as Jesus says, those who have ears to hear, listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. This itself shows us that the book of revelation has a deeper meaning.
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Post by joanna on Jul 14, 2020 21:54:05 GMT -5
Christina Rasmussen's insight deserved to be aired and insights such as hers would benefit society if they prompted broader questions and discussion.
All religious beliefs are based upon lies.
The false dichotomy between "Truth" and "Lies" and
"Cults" and "Mainstream Churches"
enables larger religious organisations to continue their deception and indoctrination of the vulnerable.
The micro-focus on a relatively new religious group (the 2x2's) should promote rational inquiry into the shared mindset fundamental to all faith-based belief systems.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 14, 2020 22:43:30 GMT -5
Christina Rasmussen's insight deserved to be aired and insights such as hers would benefit society if they prompted broader questions and discussion. All religious beliefs are based upon lies. The false dichotomy between "Truth" and "Lies" and "Cults" and "Mainstream Churches" enables larger religious organisations to continue their deception and indoctrination of the vulnerable. The micro-focus on a relatively new religious group (the 2x2's) should promote rational inquiry into the shared mindset fundamental to all faith-based belief systems. Thanks, Joanna. It is so nice to see you posting again!
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Post by Lee on Jul 15, 2020 1:11:21 GMT -5
Christina Rasmussen's insight deserved to be aired and insights such as hers would benefit society if they prompted broader questions and discussion. All religious beliefs are based upon lies. The false dichotomy between "Truth" and "Lies" and "Cults" and "Mainstream Churches" enables larger religious organisations to continue their deception and indoctrination of the vulnerable. The micro-focus on a relatively new religious group (the 2x2's) should promote rational inquiry into the shared mindset fundamental to all faith-based belief systems. First of all you have assumed no Jesus. Second, the end of your thinking means an end to faith based action behavior and existence. Do you know what a heuristic is?
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