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Post by Dan on Jul 8, 2020 1:14:18 GMT -5
I believe Jesus always had the Holy Spirit with him, after all, it is his spirit, he is one with the Spirit as he was one with the Father. I don't think he had the power of the Holy Spirit until after baptism and starting his ministry though? In his form as man, Jesus willingly relinquished equality with God (in terms of His power and position, not identity). Though he was God, he required the presence of the Holy Spirit to perform supernatural works while on earth as a man. Mark 6:5 suggest that the Lord’s ability to perform miracles was not His own. He was “permitted” to do miracles by the Spirit. I personally think that Jesus could choose, just as we can, but I don't think he was ever subject to failure. It says that the devil tempted him, but I don't think he was tempted by anything the devil offered, so he was tempted but not tempted Jesus died physically, but also forsaken of God. We will also die physically, but not forsaken in Christ. Hmmm.... sounds a bit like the Starkweather/Oyler line of thought, of which I was a fan. Did you know them?
No, never heard of them until now, but I'm evidently on the same page with them.. Very insightful guys The devil was the Tempter, bust Christ wasn't a temptee.. Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God because you can't tempt the Lord your God.
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Post by Gene on Jul 8, 2020 6:13:53 GMT -5
Hmmm.... sounds a bit like the Starkweather/Oyler line of thought, of which I was a fan. Did you know them? Thanks, Gene.
That was interesting about Starkweather/Oyler!
I checked it out on Cherie's Telling the Truth!
Certainly indicates how people can read the very same scripture yet arrive at such different interpretations. (and sadly sometimes have fought to the death over their different interpretations.)
Yes, or booted out of the work for it!
Cherie has a write-up about it in her book, as well.
G
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Jul 8, 2020 7:51:59 GMT -5
It's really a question for you and those in your fellowship to answer. In the Scripture you quote Jesus is pointing people to Him as the sole source of eternal life. However, workers have apparently searched the Scripture and spent a lot of time on Matt 10 etc to arrive at their conclusion that it is only possible for people to know God's love and receive eternal life if they profess through them and their ministry and are in their fellowship. It would seem that Jesus is not enough. You won't require a theologian to tell you that this teaching is opposite to what Jesus taught. Any Christian will tell you that and I suspect you don't support that teaching either. If people are happy to support a ministry that teaches the opposite to what Jesus taught in these verses then that is their call. But they should probably expect for it to be called out by others who love Christ and regard His finished work as so precious that they don't want to see it compromised in any way. I don't care how theologians classify my calling. I expect most W&F wouldn't care. Our fellowship was founded on experiencing the Christ within rather than subscribing to religious theory. I'm not sure what it was founded on - it seems largely to be founded on Matt 10 and a system or way of doing ministry. I know some of the early workers - William Irvine in particular - talked about experiencing the Christ within and it being our hope of glory. In my 35 years in the group I saw a lot of man-made rules and regulations which were about as far removed from Christ within or demonstrating his love to others. I remember the last convention my wife attended. She simply said "they talk a lot bout having the love of Christ but they sure don't show it or put it into action". Similarly, they talk a lot about the need for repentance but have showed zero when it comes to how they treat victims of Child Sexual Abuse, including those abused by workers. Christ's words in Matthew 23:3 come to mind when he was speaking about the Pharisees "So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach".
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Post by fixit on Jul 8, 2020 14:34:23 GMT -5
The devil was the Tempter, bust Christ wasn't a temptee.. Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God because you can't tempt the Lord your God. This is typical of how misinterpretations of scripture support trinitarianism. I'll mark in red below what Jesus, as a godly man being tempted, was effectively saying... Matthew 4:3 During that time the devil came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become loaves of bread.” No! Every word that comes from the mouth of God is bread to me.4 But Jesus told him, “No! The Scriptures say, ‘People do not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” 5 Then the devil took him to the holy city, Jerusalem, to the highest point of the Temple, 6 and said, “If you are the Son of God, jump off! For the Scriptures say, ‘He will order his angels to protect you. And they will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone.’” No! I will not test the Lord my God.7 Jesus responded, “The Scriptures also say, ‘You must not test the Lord your God.’” 8 Next the devil took him to the peak of a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 “I will give it all to you,” he said, “if you will kneel down and worship me.” No! I will worship the Lord my God and serve only him.10 “Get out of here, Satan,” Jesus told him. “For the Scriptures say, ‘You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’”
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Post by Dan on Jul 9, 2020 5:14:31 GMT -5
The devil was the Tempter, bust Christ wasn't a temptee.. Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God because you can't tempt the Lord your God. This is typical of how misinterpretations of scripture support trinitarianism. I'll mark in red below what Jesus, as a godly man being tempted, was effectively saying... Matthew 4:3 During that time the devil came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become loaves of bread.” No! Every word that comes from the mouth of God is bread to me.4 But Jesus told him, “No! The Scriptures say, ‘People do not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” 5 Then the devil took him to the holy city, Jerusalem, to the highest point of the Temple, 6 and said, “If you are the Son of God, jump off! For the Scriptures say, ‘He will order his angels to protect you. And they will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone.’” No! I will not test the Lord my God.7 Jesus responded, “The Scriptures also say, ‘You must not test the Lord your God.’” 8 Next the devil took him to the peak of a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 “I will give it all to you,” he said, “if you will kneel down and worship me.” No! I will worship the Lord my God and serve only him.10 “Get out of here, Satan,” Jesus told him. “For the Scriptures say, ‘You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’”
So you actually think Jesus was tempted to turn the stones to bread, jump off a cliff, and accept all the kingdoms of the world? I don't.
No misinterpretation, just a different perspective of how it went down in the wilderness.
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Post by mountain on Jul 9, 2020 13:36:56 GMT -5
This is typical of how misinterpretations of scripture support trinitarianism. I'll mark in red below what Jesus, as a godly man being tempted, was effectively saying... Matthew 4:3 During that time the devil came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become loaves of bread.” No! Every word that comes from the mouth of God is bread to me.4 But Jesus told him, “No! The Scriptures say, ‘People do not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” 5 Then the devil took him to the holy city, Jerusalem, to the highest point of the Temple, 6 and said, “If you are the Son of God, jump off! For the Scriptures say, ‘He will order his angels to protect you. And they will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone.’” No! I will not test the Lord my God.7 Jesus responded, “The Scriptures also say, ‘You must not test the Lord your God.’” 8 Next the devil took him to the peak of a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 “I will give it all to you,” he said, “if you will kneel down and worship me.” No! I will worship the Lord my God and serve only him.10 “Get out of here, Satan,” Jesus told him. “For the Scriptures say, ‘You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’” So you actually think Jesus was tempted to turn the stones to bread, jump off a cliff, and accept all the kingdoms of the world? I don't.
No misinterpretation, just a different perspective of how it went down in the wilderness.
Jesus's temptation was paramount. He could not work miracles (ie God working them through them) until he received the Holy Ghost at his baptism. Immediately thereafter he was led into the wilderness to fast for forty days and 40 nights.He still had not worked a miracle, ie proved that God would do so through him, but yet he believed. Then in his state of weakness he was tempted by the devil to try and tempt God to work a miracle through him. Jesus had still not 'proved' God would work miracles through him but he believed he could and would at times of God's choosing. If the devil had succeeded in getting Jesus in his weak state to work a miracle at the devil's choosing, then the devil would have destroyed the whole salvationary process, simply because like Adam, Jesus would have listened to the devil and not God. Just like Adam was, so too was Jesus tested/tempted, but unlike Adam, Jesus did not bust. Jesus was certainly tempted by the devil. Scripture is clear on that. Soon afterwards Jesus worked his first miracle at the wedding feast by turning water into wine. Shortly beforehand he told his own mother 'my time has not yet come,' but then it came with God's blessing to work that first miracle. (Virgs)
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Post by fixit on Jul 9, 2020 18:04:38 GMT -5
This is typical of how misinterpretations of scripture support trinitarianism. I'll mark in red below what Jesus, as a godly man being tempted, was effectively saying... Matthew 4:3 During that time the devil came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become loaves of bread.” No! Every word that comes from the mouth of God is bread to me.4 But Jesus told him, “No! The Scriptures say, ‘People do not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” 5 Then the devil took him to the holy city, Jerusalem, to the highest point of the Temple, 6 and said, “If you are the Son of God, jump off! For the Scriptures say, ‘He will order his angels to protect you. And they will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone.’” No! I will not test the Lord my God.7 Jesus responded, “The Scriptures also say, ‘You must not test the Lord your God.’” 8 Next the devil took him to the peak of a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 “I will give it all to you,” he said, “if you will kneel down and worship me.” No! I will worship the Lord my God and serve only him.10 “Get out of here, Satan,” Jesus told him. “For the Scriptures say, ‘You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’” So you actually think Jesus was tempted to turn the stones to bread, jump off a cliff, and accept all the kingdoms of the world? I don't.
No misinterpretation, just a different perspective of how it went down in the wilderness.
You seem to be denying that Jesus came in the flesh as a man. In Classical times some political leaders claimed to be gods. It was too humbling for some people to follow the lowly Jesus so they made him god. 1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world. 2 This is how we know if they have the Spirit of God: If a person claiming to be a prophet acknowledges that Jesus Christ came in a real body, that person has the Spirit of God. 3 But if someone claims to be a prophet and does not acknowledge the truth about Jesus, that person is not from God.
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Post by Dan on Jul 10, 2020 2:38:07 GMT -5
So you actually think Jesus was tempted to turn the stones to bread, jump off a cliff, and accept all the kingdoms of the world? I don't.
No misinterpretation, just a different perspective of how it went down in the wilderness.
Just like Adam was, so too was Jesus tested/tempted, but unlike Adam, Jesus did not bust. Jesus was certainly tempted by the devil. Scripture is clear on that.
Yes, the devil tempted Jesus, but do you really think Jesus was tempted by the offer of "All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me". How many hours do you think Jesus sat and contemplated that offer? I don't think he gave it a second thought. That's all I'm saying.
He was never tempted by a sin nature because it did not exist within Him. Satan proposed certain sinful acts to Jesus, but He had no inner desire to participate in the sin. Therefore, He was tempted like we are but remained sinless.
So you actually think Jesus was tempted to turn the stones to bread, jump off a cliff, and accept all the kingdoms of the world? I don't.
No misinterpretation, just a different perspective of how it went down in the wilderness.
You seem to be denying that Jesus came in the flesh as a man.
Not at all, of course he was born flesh & blood, but I believe his spirit was divine and his flesh was under complete subjection to his spirit. The fasting in the wilderness was overcoming the world, the flesh, and the devil. Satan threw the whole gamut at him, but he didn't flinch. Jesus knew who he was and his purpose, so I don't believe he had an ounce of interest in anything the devil had to offer. I believe he considered Satan's temptations about the same way I'd consider someone tempting me to run as fast as I can and ramming my head into a brick wall.
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Post by Dan on Jul 10, 2020 3:46:00 GMT -5
Just in addendum; Would a person who believed in God accept an offer to enjoy all the glory of the kingdoms on earth? Keeping in mind that Satan has no authority or power that God doesn't allow him, that everything on earth is just temporary, and that Satan is a liar. Did A&E become as gods like the serpent promised? Spiritual wisdom would give a resounding "No" to the devil's offer, "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36). Even I would have resisted that offer, so I imagine it was a cakewalk for Christ.
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Post by mountain on Jul 10, 2020 15:53:18 GMT -5
Just in addendum; Would a person who believed in God accept an offer to enjoy all the glory of the kingdoms on earth? Keeping in mind that Satan has no authority or power that God doesn't allow him, that everything on earth is just temporary, and that Satan is a liar. Did A&E become as gods like the serpent promised? Spiritual wisdom would give a resounding "No" to the devil's offer, "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36). Even I would have resisted that offer, so I imagine it was a cakewalk for Christ. That's nothing more than human speculation. Jesus had just been empowered by the Holy Ghost and this untested power was put to the test, not to work miracles at that time but to overcome the power of the devil. Yes the human being Jesus was sorely tempted by the devil but by the power of God within him he resisted and gained victory over the devil. His human will was put to the test to a very serious limit, just as it was the night before his was crucified when he asked God to remove the cup from him but neverleless not his will but that of God be done. God had given his human being son power to resist the temptation. Scripture is very clear about that. Therefore he was most certainly tempted. (Virgs) Luke 4 1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered. 3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. 4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. 5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. 8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: 10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: 11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Jul 10, 2020 20:47:43 GMT -5
Just in addendum; Would a person who believed in God accept an offer to enjoy all the glory of the kingdoms on earth? Keeping in mind that Satan has no authority or power that God doesn't allow him, that everything on earth is just temporary, and that Satan is a liar. Did A&E become as gods like the serpent promised? Spiritual wisdom would give a resounding "No" to the devil's offer, "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36). Even I would have resisted that offer, so I imagine it was a cakewalk for Christ. That's nothing more than human speculation. Jesus had just been empowered by the Holy Ghost and this untested power was put to the test, not to work miracles at that time but to overcome the power of the devil. Yes the human being Jesus was sorely tempted by the devil but by the power of God within him he resisted and gained victory over the devil. His human will was put to the test to a very serious limit, just as it was the night before his was crucified when he asked God to remove the cup from him but neverleless not his will but that of God be done. God had given his human being son power to resist the temptation. Scripture is very clear about that. Therefore he was most certainly tempted. (Virgs) Do you believe that Jesus had the Holy Spirit prior to being baptised? If "No", how do you think he overcame the constant temptation that any human being growing up through teenage years and their 20's has? If "Yes", why did he not sin or even have a wrong thought prior to being "empowered by the Holy Ghost"?
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Post by mountain on Jul 11, 2020 3:56:57 GMT -5
That's nothing more than human speculation. Jesus had just been empowered by the Holy Ghost and this untested power was put to the test, not to work miracles at that time but to overcome the power of the devil. Yes the human being Jesus was sorely tempted by the devil but by the power of God within him he resisted and gained victory over the devil. His human will was put to the test to a very serious limit, just as it was the night before his was crucified when he asked God to remove the cup from him but neverleless not his will but that of God be done. God had given his human being son power to resist the temptation. Scripture is very clear about that. Therefore he was most certainly tempted. (Virgs) Do you believe that Jesus had the Holy Spirit prior to being baptised? If "No", how do you think he overcame the constant temptation that any human being growing up through teenage years and their 20's has? If "Yes", why did he not sin or even have a wrong thought prior to be "empowered by the Holy Ghost"? The spirit of God was Jesus's father. God poured his spirit 'without measure' into his only begotten son from birth.This is what 'kept' Jesus true and faithful to his heavenly Father throughout his tender years until he was 'empowered' by the Holy Spirit at his baptism which enabled God through his human being son to work miracles, etc. Luke 4.1 clearly shows us that at his baptism when the Holy Spirit descended upon him he was being prepared by God to have power to resist the devil during severe circumstances and temptation and for the commemcement of his ministry when God would work through him. Luke 4 1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness. As for your second question that is also answered by the above. If you are a child of God you will have been born again by the Spirit of God. This has not empowered you to work miracles but the more you seek the spirit of God the less likely you will be prone to going astray. If you had that spirit without measure you would be able to resist temptation. If you sin.....don't blame your fallible numan nature. Blame yourself! The purpose of the Holy Spirit is to keep you faithful to God's word, not to work miracles or other such signs and wonders. Jesus was given such a power to show beyond all shadow of a doubt, even to the members of the Sanhedrin, that he was indeed 'a teacher sent from God!' Jesus was born with the Spirit of God which kept him from sin by giving him power over his own will. We get this same power if we are 'born again' by the spirit of God. God certainly favoured his only begotten son above all else, but he did not spare him. Instead he led him through his life through his obedience to his Father's will. Jesus was the firstborn of God's new creation of those who are born of God.
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Post by Dan on Jul 11, 2020 4:15:51 GMT -5
Just in addendum; Would a person who believed in God accept an offer to enjoy all the glory of the kingdoms on earth? Keeping in mind that Satan has no authority or power that God doesn't allow him, that everything on earth is just temporary, and that Satan is a liar. Did A&E become as gods like the serpent promised? Spiritual wisdom would give a resounding "No" to the devil's offer, "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36). Even I would have resisted that offer, so I imagine it was a cakewalk for Christ. That's nothing more than human speculation. Jesus had just been empowered by the Holy Ghost and this untested power was put to the test, not to work miracles at that time but to overcome the power of the devil. Yes the human being Jesus was sorely tempted by the devil but by the power of God within him he resisted and gained victory over the devil. His human will was put to the test to a very serious limit, just as it was the night before his was crucified when he asked God to remove the cup from him but neverleless not his will but that of God be done. God had given his human being son power to resist the temptation. Scripture is very clear about that. Therefore he was most certainly tempted. (Virgs) 2 Being forty days tempted of the devil 13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.
Yes, its human speculation that Jesus had a divine nature. Why would he command stones be made bread when he purposely went into the wilderness to fast? There is no need to test the power of the HS, that was simply the devil attempting to sew seeds of doubt. The devil tempted, but I still don't believe Jesus even remotely considered the bait. And I don't personally believe the cup Jesus wanted removed (pre-crucifixion) had anything to do with the crucifixion. He had previously told his disciples; "Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified" (Matthew 26:2). And John 12:27, " Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour". Jesus clearly knew his fate and purpose, he came as a sacrificial lamb to the slaughter. The cup is also a metaphor for the divine punishment of sin. Jesus already accepted the cup before him, but what his crucifixion would mean, was that no one would be without excuse afterwards. Perhaps the cup he regretted, was the cup of wrath he'd pour out at judgement (Revelation 19: 11-16). Here's another interpretation; .Let this Cup Pass - Did Jesus Change His Mind? | Redeeming God
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Jul 11, 2020 8:04:39 GMT -5
Do you believe that Jesus had the Holy Spirit prior to being baptised? If "No", how do you think he overcame the constant temptation that any human being growing up through teenage years and their 20's has? If "Yes", why did he not sin or even have a wrong thought prior to be "empowered by the Holy Ghost"? The spirit of God was Jesus's father. God poured his spirit 'without measure' into his only begotten son from birth. This is what 'kept' Jesus true and faithful to his heavenly Father throughout his tender years until he was 'empowered' by the Holy Spirit at his baptism which enabled God through his human being son to work miracles, etc. Luke 4.1 clearly shows us that at his baptism when the Holy Spirit descended upon him he was being prepared by God to have power to resist the devil during severe circumstances and temptation and for the commencement of his ministry when God would work through him. As for your second question that is also answered by the above. If you are a child of God you will have been born again by the Spirit of God. This has not empowered you to work miracles but the more you seek the spirit of God the less likely you will be prone to going astray. If you had that spirit without measure you would be able to resist temptation. If you sin.....don't blame your fallible human nature. Blame yourself! The purpose of the Holy Spirit is to keep you faithful to God's word, not to work miracles or other such signs and wonders. Jesus was given such a power to show beyond all shadow of a doubt, even to the members of the Sanhedrin, that he was indeed 'a teacher sent from God!' Jesus was born with the Spirit of God which kept him from sin by giving him power over his own will. We get this same power if we are 'born again' by the spirit of God. God certainly favoured his only begotten son above all else, but he did not spare him. Instead he led him through his life through his obedience to his Father's will. Jesus was the firstborn of God's new creation of those who are born of God. Thanks - out of interest what is your Scriptural reference to support your statement that "God poured out his spirit 'without measure' into his only begotten son from birth". When we are born again by the Spirit, we continue to sin - sin remains in us. We will continue to have wrong thoughts and do wrong things and to give into temptation - even with the complete power of the HS that is in us and on our side. Jesus didn't just have the Spirit of God in Him and on His side - he knew no sin from birth and sin never entered in. He was completely divine in every way - there were no wrong thoughts and no wrong actions. He was no ordinary human being - he was and is the giver of life (1 Cor 15). Yet, he knew temptation and was able to dismiss it completely. Faced with the prospect of having to drink the cup of the judgement of God, he was perfectly faithful and obedient and fulfilled his Father's plan completely. The Holy Spirit is not Jesus' Father. The Holy Spirit is clearly a separate person in the Godhead from the Father and the Son. Interestingly, the Holy Spirit is referred to by many names including God, Lord, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord God, the Spirit of the Father, the Spirit of the Son, the Spirit of Jesus etc.
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funone
Junior Member
Posts: 80
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Post by funone on Jul 11, 2020 9:40:43 GMT -5
God did not play a maybe game with our salvation. It was finished as a lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Putting a question mark in where God has spoken is foolish. We must believe what God has said.
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Post by mountain on Jul 11, 2020 10:02:46 GMT -5
The spirit of God was Jesus's father. God poured his spirit 'without measure' into his only begotten son from birth. This is what 'kept' Jesus true and faithful to his heavenly Father throughout his tender years until he was 'empowered' by the Holy Spirit at his baptism which enabled God through his human being son to work miracles, etc. Luke 4.1 clearly shows us that at his baptism when the Holy Spirit descended upon him he was being prepared by God to have power to resist the devil during severe circumstances and temptation and for the commencement of his ministry when God would work through him. As for your second question that is also answered by the above. If you are a child of God you will have been born again by the Spirit of God. This has not empowered you to work miracles but the more you seek the spirit of God the less likely you will be prone to going astray. If you had that spirit without measure you would be able to resist temptation. If you sin.....don't blame your fallible human nature. Blame yourself! The purpose of the Holy Spirit is to keep you faithful to God's word, not to work miracles or other such signs and wonders. Jesus was given such a power to show beyond all shadow of a doubt, even to the members of the Sanhedrin, that he was indeed 'a teacher sent from God!' Jesus was born with the Spirit of God which kept him from sin by giving him power over his own will. We get this same power if we are 'born again' by the spirit of God. God certainly favoured his only begotten son above all else, but he did not spare him. Instead he led him through his life through his obedience to his Father's will. Jesus was the firstborn of God's new creation of those who are born of God. Thanks - out of interest what is your Scriptural reference to support your statement that "God poured out his spirit 'without measure' into his only begotten son from birth". When we are born again by the Spirit, we continue to sin - sin remains in us. We will continue to have wrong thoughts and do wrong things and to give into temptation - even with the complete power of the HS that is in us and on our side. Jesus didn't just have the Spirit of God in Him and on His side - he knew no sin from birth and sin never entered in. He was completely divine in every way - there were no wrong thoughts and no wrong actions. He was no ordinary human being - he was and is the giver of life (1 Cor 15). Yet, he knew temptation and was able to dismiss it completely. Faced with the prospect of having to drink the cup of the judgement of God, he was perfectly faithful and obedient and fulfilled his Father's plan completely. The Holy Spirit is not Jesus' Father. The Holy Spirit is clearly a separate person in the Godhead from the Father and the Son. Interestingly, the Holy Spirit is referred to by many names including God, Lord, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord God, the Spirit of the Father, the Spirit of the Son, the Spirit of Jesus etc. Q1 John 3.34 33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. Jesus was born of the Spirit of God. God was looking after his only begotten Son from birth. Had Jesus not been filled with the spirit of God at any time during his life, then he either had not the spirit of God at such a time or it was given to him by measure. You say that Jesus from his birth knew no sin and sin never entered into him and was completely divine in every way. If you understand the true meaning of the term 'divine' you must agree that God gave his spirit to Jesus without measure from birth to guide and control him? Divine simply means possessing the Godly nature. If you were given God's spirit without measure, you too would not sin and resist temptation. Jesus was the exception in this, that he was given the spirit of God without measure. That's why John made a point of stating the matter. Jesus was an ordinary human being whom God made extraordinary through his spirit. Without the spirit of God Jesus would have been just another human being. Title - Son of Man Jesus used the title ‘Son of Man’ to describe himself 14 times in Mark’s Gospel. He did this because of the dual meaning: The title was used by the prophet Ezekiel to describe himself. He wanted to show that he was an ordinary person. Likewise, Jesus called himself Son of Man to remind his disciples that he was a person like them. It is used in the prophesy of Daniel to describe a figure with authority from God. Many people connected this prophesy with the idea of the coming Messiah. I disagree with your understanding about the Holy Spirit. Scripture quite clearly tells us that he was born of the Holy Ghost (Spirit). In your understanding God is a trinitarian God comprising three separate persons, i.e. The Father, The Holy Ghost and Jesus. Scripture is absolutely clear that God is the Father and the Father is God. Throughout scripture without exception, the two terms are synonymous. Jesus tells us that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. It is God's spirit. It is not a separate person from the Father. The Holy Spirit is God by virtue of the fact that it is the Father's spirit, just like your spirit is you! The term Godhead simply means Godly, Godly nature, or of God. It does not mean a trinitarian composition of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If you are a true servant of God and possessing and expressing things of his Spirit then you too will have the Godhead or Godliness, Godly nature dwelling in you bodily.
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Post by glorifythyname on Jul 11, 2020 10:22:02 GMT -5
Jesus stated- “ I am from above” he was not a ordinary human being.
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Post by mountain on Jul 11, 2020 10:22:35 GMT -5
That's nothing more than human speculation. Jesus had just been empowered by the Holy Ghost and this untested power was put to the test, not to work miracles at that time but to overcome the power of the devil. Yes the human being Jesus was sorely tempted by the devil but by the power of God within him he resisted and gained victory over the devil. His human will was put to the test to a very serious limit, just as it was the night before his was crucified when he asked God to remove the cup from him but neverleless not his will but that of God be done. God had given his human being son power to resist the temptation. Scripture is very clear about that. Therefore he was most certainly tempted. (Virgs) 2 Being forty days tempted of the devil 13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.Yes, its human speculation that Jesus had a divine nature. Why would he command stones be made bread when he purposely went into the wilderness to fast? There is no need to test the power of the HS, that was simply the devil attempting to sew seeds of doubt. The devil tempted, but I still don't believe Jesus even remotely considered the bait. I can only consider my own experience with temptation. There are many things which do not tempt me because I am not remotely interested in them. In such cases the 'bait' can in no way be described as temptation. Temptation is, or presents something which is attractive to us. This would certainly be the case with Jesus having been weakened by 40 days and nights fasting in the wilderness. Also he knew that he had been given great power by God but had never used it. There would have been temptation to do so to alleviate his condition.And I don't personally believe the cup Jesus wanted removed (pre-crucifixion) had anything to do with the crucifixion. He had previously told his disciples; "Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified" (Matthew 26:2). And John 12:27, " Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour". Jesus clearly knew his fate and purpose, he came as a sacrificial lamb to the slaughter. If you read Luke 22 it is clear that the matter IS about the crucifixtion. Jesus was battling against his own human nature to do the will of God.
39 And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him.
40 And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.
41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
45 And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,
46 And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.
47 And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him.
48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?
49 When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?
50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.
51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.
52 Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves?
53 When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.
54 Then took they him, and led him, and brought him into the high priest's house. And Peter followed afar off.
The cup is also a metaphor for the divine punishment of sin. Jesus already accepted the cup before him, but what his crucifixion would mean, was that no one would be without excuse afterwards. Perhaps the cup he regretted, was the cup of wrath he'd pour out at judgement (Revelation 19: 11-16). Here's another interpretation; .Let this Cup Pass - Did Jesus Change His Mind? | Redeeming GodThe circumstances as recorded in Luke 22 make it plain to me that the matter was about Jesus battling with his human nature to do the will of God. He knew what lay ahead of him, a very terrifying experience to go through even though he knew his heavenly Father would resurrect him afterwards. Many people can't face going to the dentist despite knowing that afterwards their teeth will be made better.
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Post by mountain on Jul 11, 2020 10:29:22 GMT -5
Jesus stated- “ I am from above” he was not a ordinary human being. He also stated that those who truly followed him were like him, not of this world. What makes Jesus and his followers extraordinary is the indwelling spirit of God.It is this which is from above, which ascends and descends. People are from only two places. We are either from above or we are from below. Those who are born again with the spirit of God are born from above. The new life has descended to them. They are no longer of this world (or from below) but are from above.They are NEW creatures in Christ. The old self from below has been replaced by the new creature from above. You are either from above or you are from below. It all depends whom your spiritual father is. There are only two choices. Every true child of God should be able to say of themselves 'I am from above!' (Virgs)
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Post by glorifythyname on Jul 11, 2020 10:30:07 GMT -5
No where in the Bible does it ever state that Jesus was battling his own human nature.
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Post by glorifythyname on Jul 11, 2020 10:31:19 GMT -5
Jesus stated- “ I am from above” he was not a ordinary human being. He also stated that those who truly followed him were like him, not of this world. What makes Jesus and his followers extraordinary is the indwelling spirit of God.It is this which is from above, which ascends and descends. People are from only two places. We are either from above or we are from below. Those who are born again with the spirit of God are born from above. The new life has descended to them. They are no longer of this world (or from below) but are from above. You are either from above or you are from below. It all depends whom your spiritual father is. There are only two choices. Every true child of God should be able to say of themselves 'I am from above!' Because HE IS- the resurrection and the LIFE
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Post by mountain on Jul 11, 2020 10:36:16 GMT -5
No where in the Bible does it ever state that Jesus was battling his own human nature. If you are looking for these exact words then you are correct. The recorded circumstances show us that the statement is correct though! Scripture very clearly tells us that Jesus learned obedience to his Father's will, through suffering! Hebrews 5 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; If verse 8 above does not very strongly imply 'battling against his own will' then I don't know what does?
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Post by mountain on Jul 11, 2020 10:37:35 GMT -5
He also stated that those who truly followed him were like him, not of this world. What makes Jesus and his followers extraordinary is the indwelling spirit of God.It is this which is from above, which ascends and descends. People are from only two places. We are either from above or we are from below. Those who are born again with the spirit of God are born from above. The new life has descended to them. They are no longer of this world (or from below) but are from above. You are either from above or you are from below. It all depends whom your spiritual father is. There are only two choices. Every true child of God should be able to say of themselves 'I am from above!' Because HE IS- the resurrection and the LIFE He is certainly that. Do you wish to follow him in the resurrection and life?
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Post by glorifythyname on Jul 11, 2020 10:40:38 GMT -5
Because HE IS- the resurrection and the LIFE He is certainly that. Do you wish to follow him in the resurrection and life? That is a question presented by God to me personally of which I answered.
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Post by glorifythyname on Jul 11, 2020 10:43:15 GMT -5
Unless God himself presents himself to a individual they have zero understanding. All this confusion on this board is a bunch of unnecessary noise. I would encourage anyone who is seeking to know God and follow him to seek his face alone. There is much confusion in this world and on this board.
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Post by glorifythyname on Jul 11, 2020 10:56:31 GMT -5
No where in the Bible does it ever state that Jesus was battling his own human nature. If you are looking for these exact words then you are correct. The recorded circumstances show us that the statement is correct though! Scripture very clearly tells us that Jesus learned obedience to his Father's will, through suffering! Hebrews 5 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; If verse 8 above does not very strongly imply 'battling against his own will' then I don't know what does? Tbe word perfect is translated as Complete. The sins of all the world were laid on him. A pure and spotless lamb would be SOILED by the sins of the world. A total contradiction of what he is. Consider that. If you were pure and spotless would you drag yourself through the sins of the world?
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Post by mountain on Jul 11, 2020 11:26:08 GMT -5
If you are looking for these exact words then you are correct. The recorded circumstances show us that the statement is correct though! Scripture very clearly tells us that Jesus learned obedience to his Father's will, through suffering! Hebrews 5 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; If verse 8 above does not very strongly imply 'battling against his own will' then I don't know what does? Tbe word perfect is translated as Complete. The sins of all the world were laid on him. A pure and spotless lamb would be SOILED by the sins of the world. A total contradiction of what he is. Consider that. If you were pure and spotless would you drag yourself through the sins of the world? I wouldn't, but what if it was the will of God? Jesus was the perfect lamb of God. God provided his lamb so that we may have our sins atoned for and be acceptable to him. John 3.16 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.' It's not what we think that counts. It's what God wants or decrees. If it's part of God's purpose and plan who are we to think otherwise? Complete or perfect...same thing really. To become either Jesus had to learn such through 'suffering!'
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Post by mountain on Jul 11, 2020 11:28:28 GMT -5
Unless God himself presents himself to a individual they have zero understanding. All this confusion on this board is a bunch of unnecessary noise. I would encourage anyone who is seeking to know God and follow him to seek his face alone. There is much confusion in this world and on this board. Oh no...you're back! Not you again? Board members beware! To think I have just wasted 15-20 minutes or so of my time answering your posts? Time I will never get back!
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