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Post by fixit on Jul 6, 2020 21:39:28 GMT -5
That is why some churches (Mormons, JW's etc) are classified by Christian pastors as cults. A cult, from a Christian perspective is simply a church that claims to be based or rooted in historic Christianity, but has deviated from or abandoned the finished work of Christ, or compromised on his person. Should we care about what pastors classify us as? Jesus expressed God's love in practical ways. He didn't care about what the theologians of the day had to say about him. John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! 40 Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life. 41 “Your approval means nothing to me, 42 because I know you don’t have God’s love within you. 43 For I have come to you in my Father’s name, and you have rejected me. Yet if others come in their own name, you gladly welcome them. 44 No wonder you can’t believe! For you gladly honor each other, but you don’t care about the honor that comes from the one who alone is God.
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Post by nathan on Jul 6, 2020 21:43:26 GMT -5
I had inner peace with my decision, God knew my situation at the time.... The workers thought what it was best for me and my life but God has a better plan for me... Your, mine and others 2x2s in similar situation has taught us to be kind, compassionate for others, patience, and keep the right spirit no matters what. We could have gotten bitter but we didn't, we keep our eyes focus on Jesus and God as our comfort and guide. Indeed !! It was good training for dealing with ex's eh? Who are 10 times worse. They can't handle or take the heat so, they left the kitchen. The firery trials, and tests will come to tests our faith in God.
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Post by iam on Jul 6, 2020 22:09:24 GMT -5
I had inner peace with my decision, God knew my situation at the time.... The workers thought what it was best for me and my life but God has a better plan for me... Your, mine and others 2x2s in similar situation has taught us to be kind, compassionate for others, patience, and keep the right spirit no matters what. We could have gotten bitter but we didn't, we keep our eyes focus on Jesus and God as our comfort and guide. Indeed !! It was good training for dealing with ex's eh? Who are 10 times worse. Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. Jesus wasn’t speaking to the “exes” he was speaking to the “ins” of his own people!!! Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today and forever. It was because of the “ins” that there became “exes”. Jesus understood these things and he has changed. You have quite the wrong spirit for “exes”. Jesus was just the opposite.
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Post by iam on Jul 6, 2020 22:10:16 GMT -5
Indeed !! It was good training for dealing with ex's eh? Who are 10 times worse. Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. Jesus wasn’t speaking to the “exes” he was speaking to the “ins” of his own people!!! Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today and forever. It was because of the “ins” that there became “exes”. Jesus understood these things and he has changed. You have quite the wrong spirit for “exes”. Jesus was just the opposite. Typo He HASNT changed
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2020 22:17:59 GMT -5
That was a funny type iam, but I understood what you meant :-) not what you said.
I'd say the ex's consider themselves the new inny's, don't you think?
So what was that you're saying about them?
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Post by fixit on Jul 6, 2020 22:29:41 GMT -5
I had inner peace with my decision, God knew my situation at the time.... The workers thought what it was best for me and my life but God has a better plan for me... Your, mine and others 2x2s in similar situation has taught us to be kind, compassionate for others, patience, and keep the right spirit no matters what. We could have gotten bitter but we didn't, we keep our eyes focus on Jesus and God as our comfort and guide. Indeed !! It was good training for dealing with ex's eh? Who are 10 times worse. That's not nice Ettu. I find many exes easier to communicate with than people defending their theology (both inside and outside the fellowship).
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Jul 6, 2020 22:31:50 GMT -5
That is why some churches (Mormons, JW's etc) are classified by Christian pastors as cults. A cult, from a Christian perspective is simply a church that claims to be based or rooted in historic Christianity, but has deviated from or abandoned the finished work of Christ, or compromised on his person. Should we care about what pastors classify us as? Jesus expressed God's love in practical ways. He didn't care about what the theologians of the day had to say about him. John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! 40 Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life. 41 “Your approval means nothing to me, 42 because I know you don’t have God’s love within you. 43 For I have come to you in my Father’s name, and you have rejected me. Yet if others come in their own name, you gladly welcome them. 44 No wonder you can’t believe! For you gladly honor each other, but you don’t care about the honor that comes from the one who alone is God. It's really a question for you and those in your fellowship to answer. In the Scripture you quote Jesus is pointing people to Him as the sole source of eternal life. However, workers have apparently searched the Scripture and spent a lot of time on Matt 10 etc to arrive at their conclusion that it is only possible for people to know God's love and receive eternal life if they profess through them and their ministry and are in their fellowship. It would seem that Jesus is not enough. You won't require a theologian to tell you that this teaching is opposite to what Jesus taught. Any Christian will tell you that and I suspect you don't support that teaching either. If people are happy to support a ministry that teaches the opposite to what Jesus taught in these verses then that is their call. But they should probably expect for it to be called out by others who love Christ and regard His finished work as so precious that they don't want to see it compromised in any way.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2020 23:02:27 GMT -5
Should we care about what pastors classify us as? Jesus expressed God's love in practical ways. He didn't care about what the theologians of the day had to say about him. John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! 40 Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life. 41 “Your approval means nothing to me, 42 because I know you don’t have God’s love within you. 43 For I have come to you in my Father’s name, and you have rejected me. Yet if others come in their own name, you gladly welcome them. 44 No wonder you can’t believe! For you gladly honor each other, but you don’t care about the honor that comes from the one who alone is God. It's really a question for you and those in your fellowship to answer. In the Scripture you quote Jesus is pointing people to Him as the sole source of eternal life. However, workers have apparently searched the Scripture and spent a lot of time on Matt 10 etc to arrive at their conclusion that it is only possible for people to know God's love and receive eternal life if they profess through them and their ministry and are in their fellowship. It would seem that Jesus is not enough. You won't require a theologian to tell you that this teaching is opposite to what Jesus taught. Any Christian will tell you that and I suspect you don't support that teaching either. If people are happy to support a ministry that teaches the opposite to what Jesus taught in these verses then that is their call. But they should probably expect for it to be called out by others who love Christ and regard His finished work as so precious that they don't want to see it compromised in any way. I heard the workers pointing to Jesus the Christ as the only way, I heard them profess to be willing to do so.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jul 6, 2020 23:12:51 GMT -5
Well Roselyn, you et al certainly have provided, and by the looks of it, will continue to provide all the press and platform Nathan could possibly ever hope for. Good on you! I'd suggest you continue, Nathan certainly can, and be a lot more civil about it, making you look bad. The other option is to do nothing and let Nathan peddle his lies on here unopposed.
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Post by ForeverFree on Jul 6, 2020 23:30:20 GMT -5
The workers try to do their best but they don't KNOW God's will, what kind of His plans or Work He has for them to do... They should encourage people to go to God and pray about it and they should leave it at that.
When I quit going to meetings, that's exactly what happened to me. The heir to the overseer throne paid me a visit at my workplace, wanting to set up a coffee date. I showed up and he questioned why I wasn't going to meetings. "It is smoking, is it drinking, is it sex?" Then he told me to pray about it and I never had initialized contact from again. I have seen him and spoken to him over the years, but he never tried to make contact again. Not because it was God's will, but because he could care less about anyone that doesn't provide money or heirs to the kingdom.
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Post by fixit on Jul 6, 2020 23:31:39 GMT -5
Should we care about what pastors classify us as? Jesus expressed God's love in practical ways. He didn't care about what the theologians of the day had to say about him. John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! 40 Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life. 41 “Your approval means nothing to me, 42 because I know you don’t have God’s love within you. 43 For I have come to you in my Father’s name, and you have rejected me. Yet if others come in their own name, you gladly welcome them. 44 No wonder you can’t believe! For you gladly honor each other, but you don’t care about the honor that comes from the one who alone is God. It's really a question for you and those in your fellowship to answer. In the Scripture you quote Jesus is pointing people to Him as the sole source of eternal life. However, workers have apparently searched the Scripture and spent a lot of time on Matt 10 etc to arrive at their conclusion that it is only possible for people to know God's love and receive eternal life if they profess through them and their ministry and are in their fellowship. It would seem that Jesus is not enough. You won't require a theologian to tell you that this teaching is opposite to what Jesus taught. Any Christian will tell you that and I suspect you don't support that teaching either. If people are happy to support a ministry that teaches the opposite to what Jesus taught in these verses then that is their call. But they should probably expect for it to be called out by others who love Christ and regard His finished work as so precious that they don't want to see it compromised in any way. I don't care how theologians classify my calling. I expect most W&F wouldn't care. Our fellowship was founded on experiencing the Christ within rather than subscribing to religious theory.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2020 23:31:55 GMT -5
Well Roselyn, you et al certainly have provided, and by the looks of it, will continue to provide all the press and platform Nathan could possibly ever hope for. Good on you! I'd suggest you continue, Nathan certainly can, and be a lot more civil about it, making you look bad. The other option is to do nothing and let Nathan peddle his lies on here unopposed. It always surprises me how important people think they are to the saving of others. Like God can't handle it, or judge fairly given any individual's circumstances? He needs your help? I don't think so.
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Post by fixit on Jul 6, 2020 23:33:40 GMT -5
The workers try to do their best but they don't KNOW God's will, what kind of His plans or Work He has for them to do... They should encourage people to go to God and pray about it and they should leave it at that.
When I quit going to meetings, that's exactly what happened to me. The heir to the overseer throne paid me a visit at my workplace, wanting to set up a coffee date. I showed up and he questioned why I wasn't going to meetings. "It is smoking, is it drinking, is it sex?" Then he told me to pray about it and I never had initialized contact from again. I have seen him and spoken to him over the years, but he never tried to make contact again. Not because it was God's will, but because he could care less about anyone that doesn't provide money or heirs to the kingdom. I'm sorry that happened to you. Most workers I know would be wiser than that, I think.
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Post by ForeverFree on Jul 6, 2020 23:38:37 GMT -5
When I quit going to meetings, that's exactly what happened to me. The heir to the overseer throne paid me a visit at my workplace, wanting to set up a coffee date. I showed up and he questioned why I wasn't going to meetings. "It is smoking, is it drinking, is it sex?" Then he told me to pray about it and I never had initialized contact from again. I have seen him and spoken to him over the years, but he never tried to make contact again. Not because it was God's will, but because he could care less about anyone that doesn't provide money or heirs to the kingdom. I'm sorry that happened to you. Most workers I know would be wiser than that, I think. Oh, I'm not sorry about it. It let me off the hook easier. But consider this to understand him. He was involved in the Marg Magowan excommunication.
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Post by Dan on Jul 7, 2020 2:01:51 GMT -5
Yes, he was the Word (God) manifested in the flesh. He wasn't born of the spirit, he was born of woman. The Spirit came at his baptism, "The Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him" (Luke 3:22). I personally don't believe he was subject to failure, and certainly not a loss of faith, as he did neither.
Thanks Dan, I certainly agree he was born of woman, I don't understand the part about being God (the Word) but not having the Holy Spirit until he was roughly 30 yrs old - since they are one? I would say he exhibited it (the Holy Spirit) already at 12. I can understand having the Holy Spirit descended on one's self, but not being God, like you or I can experience, but not be for example. You didn't touch on it, and I probably didn't ask it right, but do you think it is necessary to believe one way or another? (subject to failure, or God, who could not be)
I believe Jesus always had the Holy Spirit with him, after all, it is his spirit, he is one with the Spirit as he was one with the Father. I don't think he had the power of the Holy Spirit until after baptism and starting his ministry though? In his form as man, Jesus willingly relinquished equality with God (in terms of His power and position, not identity). Though he was God, he required the presence of the Holy Spirit to perform supernatural works while on earth as a man. Mark 6:5 suggest that the Lord’s ability to perform miracles was not His own. He was “permitted” to do miracles by the Spirit. I personally think that Jesus could choose, just as we can, but I don't think he was ever subject to failure. It says that the devil tempted him, but I don't think he was tempted by anything the devil offered, so he was tempted but not tempted Jesus died physically, but also forsaken of God. We will also die physically, but not forsaken in Christ.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 7, 2020 3:01:11 GMT -5
Thanks Dan, I certainly agree he was born of woman, I don't understand the part about being God (the Word) but not having the Holy Spirit until he was roughly 30 yrs old - since they are one? I would say he exhibited it (the Holy Spirit) already at 12. I can understand having the Holy Spirit descended on one's self, but not being God, like you or I can experience, but not be for example. You didn't touch on it, and I probably didn't ask it right, but do you think it is necessary to believe one way or another? (subject to failure, or God, who could not be) I believe Jesus always had the Holy Spirit with him, after all, it is his spirit, he is one with the Spirit as he was one with the Father. I don't think he had the power of the Holy Spirit until after baptism and starting his ministry though? In his form as man, Jesus willingly relinquished equality with God (in terms of His power and position, not identity). Though he was God, he required the presence of the Holy Spirit to perform supernatural works while on earth as a man. Mark 6:5 suggest that the Lord’s ability to perform miracles was not His own. He was “permitted” to do miracles by the Spirit. I personally think that Jesus could choose, just as we can, but I don't think he was ever subject to failure. It says that the devil tempted him, but I don't think he was tempted by anything the devil offered, so he was tempted but not tempted Jesus died physically, but also forsaken of God. We will also die physically, but not forsaken in Christ. Oh my!
Now that certainly doth make one's swim!
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 7, 2020 4:16:12 GMT -5
Well Roselyn, you et al certainly have provided, and by the looks of it, will continue to provide all the press and platform Nathan could possibly ever hope for. Good on you! I'd suggest you continue, Nathan certainly can, and be a lot more civil about it, making you look bad. Are you one of his "closet disciples" @ettu !! Do you believe Jesus lives in Venus ?
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Post by mountain on Jul 7, 2020 4:26:44 GMT -5
Well Roselyn, you et al certainly have provided, and by the looks of it, will continue to provide all the press and platform Nathan could possibly ever hope for. Good on you! I'd suggest you continue, Nathan certainly can, and be a lot more civil about it, making you look bad. The other option is to do nothing and let Nathan peddle his lies on here unopposed. And you think there's something wrong with that?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jul 7, 2020 4:49:14 GMT -5
The other option is to do nothing and let Nathan peddle his lies on here unopposed. And you think there's something wrong with that? YES.
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Post by iam on Jul 7, 2020 5:03:26 GMT -5
The workers try to do their best but they don't KNOW God's will, what kind of His plans or Work He has for them to do... They should encourage people to go to God and pray about it and they should leave it at that.
When I quit going to meetings, that's exactly what happened to me. The heir to the overseer throne paid me a visit at my workplace, wanting to set up a coffee date. I showed up and he questioned why I wasn't going to meetings. "It is smoking, is it drinking, is it sex?" Then he told me to pray about it and I never had initialized contact from again. I have seen him and spoken to him over the years, but he never tried to make contact again. Not because it was God's will, but because he could care less about anyone that doesn't provide money or heirs to the kingdom. I don’t think that heir to the overseers throne is in the work anymore
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 7, 2020 5:17:23 GMT -5
The other option is to do nothing and let Nathan peddle his lies on here unopposed. It always surprises me how important people think they are to the saving of others. Like God can't handle it, or judge fairly given any individual's circumstances? He needs your help? I don't think so. Well @ettu maybe God can judge fairly the "exes" you seem to have a hang up with 😊
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Post by mountain on Jul 7, 2020 6:24:25 GMT -5
And you think there's something wrong with that? YES. I couldn't agree more!
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Post by ForeverFree on Jul 7, 2020 16:45:53 GMT -5
When I quit going to meetings, that's exactly what happened to me. The heir to the overseer throne paid me a visit at my workplace, wanting to set up a coffee date. I showed up and he questioned why I wasn't going to meetings. "It is smoking, is it drinking, is it sex?" Then he told me to pray about it and I never had initialized contact from again. I have seen him and spoken to him over the years, but he never tried to make contact again. Not because it was God's will, but because he could care less about anyone that doesn't provide money or heirs to the kingdom. I don’t think that heir to the overseers throne is in the work anymore Oh, he certainly is.
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Post by iam on Jul 7, 2020 17:46:15 GMT -5
I don’t think that heir to the overseers throne is in the work anymore Oh, he certainly is. Guess that’s another one!
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Post by openingact34 on Jul 7, 2020 18:24:59 GMT -5
The workers try to do their best but they don't KNOW God's will, what kind of His plans or Work He has for them to do... They should encourage people to go to God and pray about it and they should leave it at that.
When I quit going to meetings, that's exactly what happened to me. The heir to the overseer throne paid me a visit at my workplace, wanting to set up a coffee date. I showed up and he questioned why I wasn't going to meetings. "It is smoking, is it drinking, is it sex?" Then he told me to pray about it and I never had initialized contact from again. I The workers are pretty insightful, aren't they? Which of his guesses was the correct answer?
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Post by Gene on Jul 7, 2020 18:55:51 GMT -5
Thanks Dan, I certainly agree he was born of woman, I don't understand the part about being God (the Word) but not having the Holy Spirit until he was roughly 30 yrs old - since they are one? I would say he exhibited it (the Holy Spirit) already at 12. I can understand having the Holy Spirit descended on one's self, but not being God, like you or I can experience, but not be for example. You didn't touch on it, and I probably didn't ask it right, but do you think it is necessary to believe one way or another? (subject to failure, or God, who could not be)
I believe Jesus always had the Holy Spirit with him, after all, it is his spirit, he is one with the Spirit as he was one with the Father. I don't think he had the power of the Holy Spirit until after baptism and starting his ministry though? In his form as man, Jesus willingly relinquished equality with God (in terms of His power and position, not identity). Though he was God, he required the presence of the Holy Spirit to perform supernatural works while on earth as a man. Mark 6:5 suggest that the Lord’s ability to perform miracles was not His own. He was “permitted” to do miracles by the Spirit. I personally think that Jesus could choose, just as we can, but I don't think he was ever subject to failure. It says that the devil tempted him, but I don't think he was tempted by anything the devil offered, so he was tempted but not tempted Jesus died physically, but also forsaken of God. We will also die physically, but not forsaken in Christ. Hmmm.... sounds a bit like the Starkweather/Oyler line of thought, of which I was a fan. Did you know them?
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Post by ForeverFree on Jul 7, 2020 23:28:04 GMT -5
When I quit going to meetings, that's exactly what happened to me. The heir to the overseer throne paid me a visit at my workplace, wanting to set up a coffee date. I showed up and he questioned why I wasn't going to meetings. "It is smoking, is it drinking, is it sex?" Then he told me to pray about it and I never had initialized contact from again. I The workers are pretty insightful, aren't they? Which of his guesses was the correct answer? Coming from an elder's home, with a prominent 2x2 family background, he probably narrowed it down to those three. I didn't give him the satisfaction of the answer.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 7, 2020 23:29:06 GMT -5
I believe Jesus always had the Holy Spirit with him, after all, it is his spirit, he is one with the Spirit as he was one with the Father. I don't think he had the power of the Holy Spirit until after baptism and starting his ministry though? In his form as man, Jesus willingly relinquished equality with God (in terms of His power and position, not identity). Though he was God, he required the presence of the Holy Spirit to perform supernatural works while on earth as a man. Mark 6:5 suggest that the Lord’s ability to perform miracles was not His own. He was “permitted” to do miracles by the Spirit. I personally think that Jesus could choose, just as we can, but I don't think he was ever subject to failure. It says that the devil tempted him, but I don't think he was tempted by anything the devil offered, so he was tempted but not tempted Jesus died physically, but also forsaken of God. We will also die physically, but not forsaken in Christ. Hmmm.... sounds a bit like the Starkweather/Oyler line of thought, of which I was a fan. Did you know them? Thanks, Gene.
That was interesting about Starkweather/Oyler!
I checked it out on Cherie's Telling the Truth!
Certainly indicates how people can read the very same scripture yet arrive at such different interpretations. (and sadly sometimes have fought to the death over their different interpretations.)
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