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Post by iam on Apr 24, 2020 21:05:36 GMT -5
I think abortion is murder and know of some that have gone that route and it’s messed them up a lot. Don’t know how all of them that have abortions feel though. I never had any strong feelings about abortion until I ended a relationship with someone that really needed me and when I saw what it did to him I felt like a murderer and had to do something about it. So now I feel like I would probably really be troubled if I would have ever had an abortion. Don’t know how you feel until it’s too late sometimes. I think people would need a lot of support and help to get through those feelings, and perhaps it’s not possible for some people. I really feel bad for anyone that would feel they have to go that route for whatever reason. Gotta be very stressful.
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Post by Gene on Apr 24, 2020 21:09:29 GMT -5
And Abraham had both a wife and a concubine, at the same time, and children by both.
Nice try though.
your avoiding answering both of my questions, why? Acts 17:26 is what some Christians have argued.
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Post by xna on Apr 24, 2020 21:10:54 GMT -5
Roe v. Wade - ... ruled that the Constitution of the United States protects a pregnant woman's liberty to choose to have an abortion without excessive government restriction. So the right to life and liberty and the constitution's protection doesn't extend to the unborn child?
Happy I am not a woman, and that my wife never had an abortion or miscarriage.
Not sure there is a good solution, but this is how I see it...
- Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control.
- I don't think anyone wants an abortion. But sometimes it's the best of the bad choices.
- I think the pro-life movement needs to say abortion is killing a human life. Biologically, once there is a zygote then there is a new human life. Instead the two sides argue over; is a fetus a child, does a fetus have rights, at what day is a fetus viable enough that abortions should not happen, etc. Under limited certain circumstances the US allows killing of humans; death penalty, war, abortion should be added to that list of exceptions. - Until the fetus is viable, it does not have rights.
- An unviable fetus is wholly dependent on the mother. During this time the mother only has rights to her body, which includes the fetus. When the fetus is unviable the mothers rights to her body is unilateral and sovereignly hers alone. In the same way that a child does not have the right to take a kidney from his mother against her will, even if it means without it the child would die.
- 50% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage natural abortion Who to blame?
- The bible doesn't seem to have a problem with killing a fetus or even a pregnant woman.
Hosea 13:16 16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
Genesis 38:24 24 And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by ladydom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.
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Post by iam on Apr 24, 2020 21:17:51 GMT -5
Lots of unborn babies who were unfortunate enough to have pro-choice mothers suffered injury, damage, and loss (of life).
Abortion is beautiful and Biblical. How is abortion beautiful and biblical? I have seen the aftermath of abortion and it’s been horrific. Some have ptsd symptoms for the rest of their lives. Sometimes you don’t know what you’re getting yourself into before it’s too late. I am pro choice but I wouldn’t for the life of me have an abortion or label it a beautiful experience. And although at one time I didn’t have any feelings about it, now I know I would feel like a murderer. Don’t think I would ever be able to come to terms with that. It bothers me to kill any living thing.
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Post by iam on Apr 24, 2020 21:30:11 GMT -5
So the right to life and liberty and the constitution's protection doesn't extend to the unborn child?
Happy I am not a woman, and that my wife never had an abortion or miscarriage.
Not sure there is a good solution, but this is how I see it...
- Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control.
- I don't think anyone wants an abortion. But sometimes it's the best of the bad choices.
- I think the pro-life movement needs to say abortion is killing a human life. Biologically, once there is a zygote then there is a new human life. Instead the two sides argue over; is a fetus a child, does a fetus have rights, at what day is a fetus viable enough that abortions should not happen, etc. Under limited certain circumstances the US allows killing of humans; death penalty, war, abortion should be added to that list of exceptions. - Until the fetus is viable, it does not have rights.
- An unviable fetus is wholly dependent on the mother. During this time the mother only has rights to her body, which includes the fetus. When the fetus is unviable the mothers rights to her body is unilateral and sovereignly hers alone. In the same way that a child does not have the right to take a kidney from his mother against her will, even if it means without it the child would die.
- 50% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage natural abortion Who did is to blame?
- The bible doesn't seem to have a problem with killing a fetus or even a pregnant woman.
Hosea 13:16 16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
Genesis 38:24 24 And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by ladydom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.Yes the scriptures can be used to prove all kinds of points but I could not live with myself and support abortion. But I would try to support the person afterwards because that’s when it would be really tough. And like you say, some have been through overwhelming experiences that brought them to that choice. My body is my own but a fetus is another life in my body not just another organ. But if anyone had ever had to go through an abortion I would try to be as much help to them as possible. So incredibly sad.
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Post by iam on Apr 24, 2020 21:33:21 GMT -5
I wouldn’t feel like a murderer if I had a miscarriage, I know that. But it would feel like a death because I know people that have had miscarriages and it’s been a difficult experience for them.
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Post by openingact34 on Apr 24, 2020 21:51:55 GMT -5
Abortion is beautiful and Biblical. How is abortion beautiful and biblical? I have seen the aftermath of abortion and it’s been horrific. Some have ptsd symptoms for the rest of their lives. Sometimes you don’t know what you’re getting yourself into before it’s too late. I am pro choice but I wouldn’t for the life of me have an abortion or label it a beautiful experience. And although at one time I didn’t have any feelings about it, now I know I would feel like a murderer. Don’t think I would ever be able to come to terms with that. It bothers me to kill any living thing.
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Post by xna on Apr 24, 2020 21:52:19 GMT -5
I think abortion is murder and know of some that have gone that route and it’s messed them up a lot. Don’t know how all of them that have abortions feel though. I never had any strong feelings about abortion until I ended a relationship with someone that really needed me and when I saw what it did to him I felt like a murderer and had to do something about it. So now I feel like I would probably really be troubled if I would have ever had an abortion. Don’t know how you feel until it’s too late sometimes. I think people would need a lot of support and help to get through those feelings, and perhaps it’s not possible for some people. I really feel bad for anyone that would feel they have to go that route for whatever reason. Gotta be very stressful. I see abortion as taking a human life too. I know most pro-choice don’t see it that way. I draw the right to take a human life line in this case at the point of viability. The USA nation has been at war 97% of the time it has been a country. We the people are the nation, and so we all have blood on our hands, so to speak. If someone broke into my home and was trying to kill me, If able I would kill them first. This is another example where a person has the right to kill another. To me it’s about when we say we can kill under the law. Killings by; War, abortion, death penalty, self defense etc all are best of bad choices.
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Post by iam on Apr 24, 2020 21:55:13 GMT -5
your avoiding answering both of my questions, why? Acts 17:26 is what some Christians have argued.
What does acts 17:26 have to do with wives and concubines? It seems like it was never the plan in the first place to have more than one but people get themselves into predicaments and then how do you handle the situation? Just ditch the person? I did that once and what a disaster that became! I never had any peace over that, that’s for sure. Had to go against all my thinking and everyone else’s too to get to the place where I could get peace in my heart. I met a man in my hometown when we drove through once, and he had this big house and he had an open door policy for any of his past relationships to come if they needed a place to stay. I was quite amazed. He seemed to need to do that for his own peace of mind. Relationships are fascinating but can be deadly too especially when there’s not enough care about them.
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Post by Gene on Apr 24, 2020 22:00:50 GMT -5
Acts 17:26 is what some Christians have argued.
What does acts 17:26 have to do with wives and concubines? It seems like it was never the plan in the first place to have more than one but people get themselves into predicaments and then how do you handle the situation? Just ditch the person? I did that once and what a disaster that became! I never had any peace over that, that’s for sure. Had to go against all my thinking and everyone else’s too to get to the place where I could get peace in my heart. I met a man in my hometown when we drove through once, and he had this big house and he had an open door policy for any of his past relationships to come if they needed a place to stay. I was quite amazed. He seemed to need to do that for his own peace of mind. Relationships are fascinating but can be deadly too especially when there’s not enough care about them. Sorry - nothing to do with wives and concubines - I was responding to Wally's earlier question about biblical grounds for miscegenation.
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Post by iam on Apr 24, 2020 22:06:54 GMT -5
How is abortion beautiful and biblical? I have seen the aftermath of abortion and it’s been horrific. Some have ptsd symptoms for the rest of their lives. Sometimes you don’t know what you’re getting yourself into before it’s too late. I am pro choice but I wouldn’t for the life of me have an abortion or label it a beautiful experience. And although at one time I didn’t have any feelings about it, now I know I would feel like a murderer. Don’t think I would ever be able to come to terms with that. It bothers me to kill any living thing. The woman’s belly would swell and her thigh would rot nd she would be like a curse to the people.! How is that beautiful? And you would be hard pressed to find a man that Is pure by any means. John 8:3-5,7,10-11 [3] And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, [4] They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. [5] Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? [7] So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. [10] When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? [11] She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
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Post by Gene on Apr 24, 2020 22:12:42 GMT -5
Hey! I just graduated to Hero status! Now I aspire to Legend!!!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 24, 2020 22:17:49 GMT -5
Hey! I just graduated to Hero status! Now I aspire to Legend!!! Did it involve a phone box?
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Post by openingact34 on Apr 24, 2020 22:18:03 GMT -5
The woman’s belly would swell and her thigh would rot nd she would be like a curse to the people.! How is that beautiful? And you would be hard pressed to find a man that Is pure by any means. John 8:3-5,7,10-11 [3] And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, [4] They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. [5] Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? [7] So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. [10] When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? [11] She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. You think what God does is ugly? "He has made everything beautiful in its time" Eccl 3:10
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Post by Gene on Apr 24, 2020 22:20:38 GMT -5
Hey! I just graduated to Hero status! Now I aspire to Legend!!! Did it involve a phone box? You been using those spy glasses again? No match for my x-ray vision.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 24, 2020 22:26:09 GMT -5
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Post by iam on Apr 24, 2020 22:29:07 GMT -5
The woman’s belly would swell and her thigh would rot nd she would be like a curse to the people.! How is that beautiful? And you would be hard pressed to find a man that Is pure by any means. John 8:3-5,7,10-11 [3] And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, [4] They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. [5] Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? [7] So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. [10] When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? [11] She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. You think what God does is ugly? "He has made everything beautiful in its time" Eccl 3:10 Maybe in it’s time. That’s a hopeful thought. Yes I believe God does some ugly things. Perhaps it makes it beautiful in it’s time. Time will tell. Or maybe the end of time. A thousand years is as a day. Haven’t seen any thousand year lifespans so may not get to see the beauty of some things here.
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Post by iam on Apr 24, 2020 22:32:48 GMT -5
Hey! I just graduated to Hero status! Now I aspire to Legend!!! Oh great, what will hero status do to your ego? Haha. 🤣 Congratulations though!🎉
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Post by iam on Apr 24, 2020 22:38:06 GMT -5
What does acts 17:26 have to do with wives and concubines? It seems like it was never the plan in the first place to have more than one but people get themselves into predicaments and then how do you handle the situation? Just ditch the person? I did that once and what a disaster that became! I never had any peace over that, that’s for sure. Had to go against all my thinking and everyone else’s too to get to the place where I could get peace in my heart. I met a man in my hometown when we drove through once, and he had this big house and he had an open door policy for any of his past relationships to come if they needed a place to stay. I was quite amazed. He seemed to need to do that for his own peace of mind. Relationships are fascinating but can be deadly too especially when there’s not enough care about them. Sorry - nothing to do with wives and concubines - I was responding to Wally's earlier question about biblical grounds for miscegenation. Sorry about that
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Post by iam on Apr 24, 2020 22:52:58 GMT -5
I think abortion is murder and know of some that have gone that route and it’s messed them up a lot. Don’t know how all of them that have abortions feel though. I never had any strong feelings about abortion until I ended a relationship with someone that really needed me and when I saw what it did to him I felt like a murderer and had to do something about it. So now I feel like I would probably really be troubled if I would have ever had an abortion. Don’t know how you feel until it’s too late sometimes. I think people would need a lot of support and help to get through those feelings, and perhaps it’s not possible for some people. I really feel bad for anyone that would feel they have to go that route for whatever reason. Gotta be very stressful. I see abortion as taking a human life too. I know most pro-choice don’t see it that way. I draw the right to take a human life line in this case at the point of viability. The USA nation has been at war 97% of the time it has been a country. We the people are the nation, and so we all have blood on our hands, so to speak. If someone broke into my home and was trying to kill me, If able I would kill them first. This is another example where a person has the right to kill another. To me it’s about when we say we can kill under the law. Killings by; War, abortion, death penalty, self defense etc all are best of bad choices. I always used to think if someone broke into our house and tried to kill me I would kill him first if I got the chance but a worker actually did that and that messed him up to some extent. Now, I would fight and try to escape but don’t think I would want blood on my hands under any situation. Don’t think I could live with the added trauma.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2020 23:17:34 GMT -5
your avoiding answering both of my questions, why? Acts 17:26 is what some Christians have argued.
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; i think both you and I know that verse is not a call to segregate the races nor says anything about interracial marriage...its simply explaining in "times before" God formed all the different societies and each had their own habitats. another thing to note is "made of one blood all nations of men" that goes very far in saying we are all one brotherhood of man...
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 24, 2020 23:25:26 GMT -5
Acts 17:26 is what some Christians have argued.
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; i think both you and I know that verse is not a call to segregate the races nor says anything about interracial marriage...its simply explaining in "times before" God formed all the different societies and each had their own habitats. another thing to note is "made of one blood all nations of men" that goes very far in saying we are all one brotherhood of man... No wonder the world is so chaotic when their are people like you and Trump still believing in nonsense like that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2020 23:27:34 GMT -5
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; i think both you and I know that verse is not a call to segregate the races nor says anything about interracial marriage...its simply explaining in "times before" God formed all the different societies and each had their own habitats. another thing to note is "made of one blood all nations of men" that goes very far in saying we are all one brotherhood of man... No wonder the world is so chaotic when their are people like you and Trump still believing in nonsense like that. so you don't believe in interracial marriages or brotherhood of man? i'm shocked i thought you were a humanist....
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 24, 2020 23:30:53 GMT -5
No wonder the world is so chaotic when their are people like you and Trump still believing in nonsense like that. so you don't believe in interracial marriages or brotherhood of man? i'm shocked i thought you were a humanist.... I am referring to your comment that god formed societies. That is an idea born in the minds of people who lack understanding and instead have made up fairy tales such as the bible.
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Post by Dan on Apr 25, 2020 1:15:08 GMT -5
Sounds like you want to live in a theocracy.
In my head, I'm already there ... ( Theocracy is a form of government in which God or a deity of some type is recognized as the supreme ruling authority)
Lots of unborn babies who were unfortunate enough to have pro-choice mothers suffered injury, damage, and loss (of life).
Abortion is beautiful and Biblical.
I must have missed that? Would appreciate the chapter & verse?
61 million unborn babies have been killed in abortions in the U.S.... And yet we're all upset over 50 thousand virus deaths. Makes me wonder about our priorities?
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Post by fixit on Apr 25, 2020 4:14:28 GMT -5
I see abortion as taking a human life too. I know most pro-choice don’t see it that way. I draw the right to take a human life line in this case at the point of viability. So when the unborn child needs the protection of its mother the most, then she is entitled to kill it. When it can survive without her she is bound by law to protect it.
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Post by xna on Apr 25, 2020 8:27:45 GMT -5
I see abortion as taking a human life too. I know most pro-choice don’t see it that way. I draw the right to take a human life line in this case at the point of viability. So when the unborn child needs the protection of its mother the most, then she is entitled to kill it. I draw the line at the "point of viability", as a practical biological matter, not guided by religious ideas.
Before the point of viability I think it's safe to say that the fetus is not sentient. So the idea that a "fetus is needing something" is projecting attributes which are not yet there. I see calling a non viable fetus an "unborn child" as a distortion, just as saying a woman who menstruates without letting herself be inseminated, is letting half of an "unborn child" die. Or that a man "spilling his seed" is letting half of an "unborn child" die.
Others draw the line much further back. I understand the RCC draws the line at of protecting the "unborn child" before conception. They are against birth control and are against male masturbation for this reason.
Jainism draws the line protecting harm to all animals, including micro-organisms.When it can survive without her she is bound by law to protect it. Yes. When a human reaches viability it is to be given normal care and feeding. At this point it is granted all human rights, and even more so than an adult.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2020 9:17:27 GMT -5
Thanks to all of you for staying on the topic of the tread!!!
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