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Post by Get off of TMB on Apr 9, 2020 7:56:02 GMT -5
This topic has come up before. Some workers have preferred courthouse weddings. Others have been fine with a lot of celebration. Like everything else, there are regional and generation differences.
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 9, 2020 8:57:21 GMT -5
Excerpt from my not yet published book, Preserving the Truth:Marriage, Divorce, Remarriage, Weddings, Courting/Dating. Given that the ideal occupation for young 2x2s is entering the Work, some Workers have taken a dim view of dating and marriage, even though without marriage, Workers would have few open homes, meals, or wheels. For many years, Workers, especially those in the U.S. Southern states, discouraged young people from getting acquainted. Those who do not find a marriage partner within the Sect are expected to remain single all their lives, as the Apostle Paul recommended (1 Cor. 7:7, 8, 34). For a long time, conventions were the main place where 2x2 youth could meet potential mates. Some Workers felt strongly that "convention is not a place for courting," and prevented young boys and girls from talking or sitting together at conventions, even when engaged sometims. Before e-mail, many young 2x2 couples exchanged letters after convention; some eventually married after having very few dates. My parents were an example. They met briefly at a Sunday Fellowship Meeting, wrote letters during WWII, and visited once after the war. They married the third time they saw each other. Outsiders. It is expected that 2x2s will not marry outside the Sect, based on 2 Cor. 6:14 KJV, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" Marriages with Non-2x2s (outsiders) are called divided homes (1 Cor. 7:24). A new convert may remain in a marriage with a Non-2x2 and have full participation privileges. Workers strongly discourage 2x2s from dating "a worldly person," (an outsider) although in some foreign countries the Workers accept Friends marrying outsiders because of the lack of suitable partners within the Sect. In some cases, a 2x2 dating an outsider is not allowed to participate in meetings. A 2x2 who marries an outsider may be temporarily punished by not being allowed to participate or take communion in Fellowship Meetings. Withholding communion from a believer has no scriptural basis. According to the Apostle Paul in 1 Cor. 11:27–29, taking communion is left up to the individual's discretion, rather than the Workers. Since the Millennium, it has become more common for 2x2s to marry outsiders, and even for Workers to attend such mixed weddings. Marriage Ceremonies. Workers do not perform marriage ceremonies, stating there is no precedent where Jesus or His apostles did so. For many years, most 2x2 weddings were performed at the courthouse by a Judge or Justice of Peace; Workers rarely attended. In the 1940s, when my parents married, weddings were held with little fanfare and very few witnesses or guests. The Workers cautioned, "Keep it quiet and simple." Couples were cautioned against their weddings being "just like the worldly people." The format for 2x2 weddings has not been consistent worldwide and has changed considerably over time. Around the 1980s, the Friends began holding more elaborate weddings. Since then, marriages have varied in size and pomp, and have been conducted in homes, outdoors, gardens, hotels, country clubs, event centers, etc. They are almost never performed by a "worldly" minister in a church building, except in Belgium. In the late twentieth century, Workers began attending weddings, making short speeches, and/or praying. Wedding Apparel. In earlier years, professing brides were not allowed to wear "worldly" white wedding gowns or carry flowers. Brides were expected to wear an outfit suitable for Sunday Meeting, with no wedding veil. Grooms usually wore a suit and tie. Since the 1970s, more and more professing brides have worn traditional, white strapless or off-the-shoulder floor-length gowns with bridal headpieces, veils, and bouquets; some grooms have worn tuxedos. With This Ring. As early as 1908, reporters mentioned 2x2 married women "casting aside the symbol of marriage," and new brides not wearing wedding bands (Impartial Reporter Aug. 27, 1908, TTT). In the early 1900s in New Zealand, the 2x2 women were encouraged to cast their wedding bands into a pond on a South Island convention grounds (wearing gold was "not of God"). By not wearing a wedding ring, some 2x2 women suffered uncomfortable moments. A motel clerk refused to rent my parents a room because my mother was not wearing a wedding ring, and they "weren't that kind of place." Soon after that embarrassing experience, my parents purchased a very slim gold wedding band for $8.00. An engagement ring is a ring worn on the third finger of the left hand; it is an external symbol of a promise by two people to marry each other. Workers have long considered engagement rings to be worldly and somewhat rebellious. At least by the early 1960s in some areas, it was fairly customary for a 2x2 man to give his 2x2 fiancée an engagement wrissweet thingch; normally the watch was not gold or adorned with gemstones. After the Millennium, it became more common for North American 2x2 brides to wear engagement and wedding rings with diamonds, though this is not yet a worldwide norm. Eventually, most all 2x2 married women wore wedding bands. At first, the bands were usually simple, narrow, plain, and without gemstones. Worldly men began wearing wedding bands in the mid-twentieth century. By the mid to late 1960s, it became permissible for 2x2 men to wear a wedding band in some areas; in Australia, it was not allowed until the 1980s. Divorce. 2x2s are discouraged from divorcing, but when it occurs, it is generally accepted, provided the divorcee remains single and celibate. After the death of their ex-spouse, they are free to remarry. Remarriage. Worldwide, Workers are divided into two camps regarding the interpretation of Scripture and treatment of remarriage after divorce by 2x2s. In both East and West North America, if the divorce and remarriage took place prior to converting to 2x2ism, they are allowed full participation. In the West, as well as in the nations under its influence or authority, the Workers believe and teach that remarriage after divorce is a sin of commission and is considered "living in adultery." The divorced and remarried 2x2 couples in the West are not allowed to participate in Fellowship Meetings, to be Elders, or take communion. In Western North America, some divorced and remarried couples have been advised that unless they separate from their second spouse, they forfeit their opportunity to enter Heaven. Families have been cruelly separated due to the pressure of Workers who strongly believe this and stress that remarried couples have little to no chance of eternal salvation without separating. Some have been allowed to remain "separate" under the same roof. In some cases, they have been urged to leave their second marriage and remarry their original spouse, although the Old Testament labels this practice "an abomination" (Deut. 24:1-4 KJV). Depending on the conviction of their Overseer, some Workers have refused to spend the night in a divorced and remarried couples' home or accept their donations. Around 2000, Walter Burkinshaw, Overseer of British Columbia, Canada, reportedly banned two divorced couples who had remarried from even attending Fellowship Meetings, i.e. they were excommunicated. However, the Workers in Eastern U.S. and countries under their authority believe in and apply a merciful policy, and most divorced and remarried couples are allowed full participation. It is also permissible for divorcees to remarry in some states, such as Colorado, Texas, Alabama, Oklahoma, and others. Unabridged version of the above with more details and examples is on TTT at: www.tellingthetruth.info/history_articles/rules-history.php
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2020 10:46:52 GMT -5
A clergy person (minister, priest, rabbi, etc.) is someone who is ordained by a religious organization to marry two people. Why can't the Workers be ordained and get a licence to marry people.Why have they turned their back on the responsibility of doing this. Please don't trot out the line Christ didn't marry people.
A lot of things in the 2x2 doctrine came from Catholic doctrine. Priests are unmarried and celibate, same as Workers, but they marry people, and enjoy doing it.But of course it is just another one of the peculiarities of the 2x2 Church. We get used to them, even if we don't understand why.
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 9, 2020 11:41:27 GMT -5
FWIW, I understand that most anyone can get a temporary license to marry a couple in California. I know of some Elders who have done so.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2020 13:43:26 GMT -5
I posted this on another thread but I repost it here, because of the disgust in the way we had to get married. I know that things have changed in 60 years and that is great, but feel it is time that Workers no longer treat Weddings as unimportant. High time that they become involved, get a licence, and perform this important duty as they should. That would give them a much better understanding of marriage.
We have had a good marriage, but a wedding from Hell. This was it.
I was always cranky that we were not allowed to have proper weddings. Why???. They had weddings big time in the Bible. Jesus provided the wine. We have been married 59 years tomorrow. But it had to be in a Registry office, long before civil celebrants started. Registry offices were few and far between in Victoria, we had to travel 80kms to the nearest one. The Registrar also was a second hand dealer. His office only had room for him,his table and 2 people standing. Parents and witnesses had to stand outside. We had to go outside while the witnesses came in to sign. And to top it all off, when we were making our vows a guy burst in to the office wanting to know the price of a piano out the back. The Registrar had the decency to tell him to wait, he would see him shortly. I thought it was considerate of him, to finish marrying us, before he sold the piano. My Wife got chipped by a Worker for wearing white shoes, should have been black. We thought they were for meetings and funerals.
It is a disgrace that weddings had to be like that, because of a stupid rule made by a Worker. No justification for it, misuse of power. However we got the piece of paper, and have been happily married for 59 years, that is the main thing. We do hope to make 60, will keep our fingers crossed,not that I expect to be thrown out any time soon.
There is no way on Earth that people should have to be married in a second hand shop, and treated like second hand goods.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2020 17:08:45 GMT -5
Snow pointed out on another thread engagement rings were banned. Why???. Just another stupid rule made by a Worker. Christ didn't have one, so you can't either. Just crazy.
After we left the 2x2's I bought my Wife one. At least she was not able to throw it back at me, we had already been married for 8 years. She bought me a wedding band, still on my finger, won't come off. We went out to dinner with some good friends and we exchanged rings. About the same time as she had her ears pieced and started wearing earrings.
It makes me wild, when I think of all the unnecessary interference that was inflicted on our lives, because of stupid rules that were made. We should make a list of all the things they got wrong, and ask for an apology for the grief that it caused. I think of all the Families torn apart because because of 2x2ism, that is another topic. And Workers would have the gall to say that Christ condoned it. What rot, Christ was a humanitarian, much different attitude.
Smoke coming out my ears, better stop, to be continued.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2020 18:14:44 GMT -5
all i know is that my mother had stopped professing and married my father, when the workers heard that she was going to do that they tried putting the kobsoh on the wedding by saying anyone who went to it would get no further help from the workers(sisters) luckily a number of them came anyways..and again this was AFTER she had stopped professing....
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Post by iam on Apr 9, 2020 18:36:04 GMT -5
I posted this on another thread but I repost it here, because of the disgust in the way we had to get married. I know that things have changed in 60 years and that is great, but feel it is time that Workers no longer treat Weddings as unimportant. High time that they become involved, get a licence, and perform this important duty as they should. That would give them a much better understanding of marriage. We have had a good marriage, but a wedding from Hell. This was it. I was always cranky that we were not allowed to have proper weddings. Why???. They had weddings big time in the Bible. Jesus provided the wine. We have been married 59 years tomorrow. But it had to be in a Registry office, long before civil celebrants started. Registry offices were few and far between in Victoria, we had to travel 80kms to the nearest one. The Registrar also was a second hand dealer. His office only had room for him,his table and 2 people standing. Parents and witnesses had to stand outside. We had to go outside while the witnesses came in to sign. And to top it all off, when we were making our vows a guy burst in to the office wanting to know the price of a piano out the back. The Registrar had the decency to tell him to wait, he would see him shortly. I thought it was considerate of him, to finish marrying us, before he sold the piano. My Wife got chipped by a Worker for wearing white shoes, should have been black. We thought they were for meetings and funerals. It is a disgrace that weddings had to be like that, because of a stupid rule made by a Worker. No justification for it, misuse of power. However we got the piece of paper, and have been happily married for 59 years, that is the main thing. We do hope to make 60, will keep our fingers crossed,not that I expect to be thrown out any time soon. There is no way on Earth that people should have to be married in a second hand shop, and treated like second hand goods. Haha! You had a wedding you will never forget! That's just hilarious about the piano!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2020 18:49:20 GMT -5
But why Wally, Workers have no right to poke there noses into people's private lives. None of their business.
A classic example is my Wife's Mother. She was professing, engaged to a non-professing man. He came to Gospel meetings, when they were tested, he stood up. He was told by the Worker " Sit down Bert, we know what you are about". The engagement was broken, and some time later that Worker matched her up with another man. He was professing, they got married and of course he was my Wife's Dad. The Mother used to tell us about it.
That Worker had no right to get involved, completely out of order. Don't try to justify it by saying he was guided by God, that will really make me wild. Stop Redback, you are in a bad mood at the moment.
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Post by Annan on Apr 9, 2020 18:53:04 GMT -5
Snow pointed out on another thread engagement rings were banned. Why???. Just another stupid rule made by a Worker. Christ didn't have one, so you can't either. Just crazy. After we left the 2x2's I bought my Wife one. At least she was not able to throw it back at me, we had already been married for 8 years. She bought me a wedding band, still on my finger, won't come off. We went out to dinner with some good friends and we exchanged rings. About the same time as she had her ears pieced and started wearing earrings. It makes me wild, when I think of all the unnecessary interference that was inflicted on our lives, because of stupid rules that were made. We should make a list of all the things they got wrong, and ask for an apology for the grief that it caused. I think of all the Families torn apart because because of 2x2ism, that is another topic. And Workers would have the gall to say that Christ condoned it. What rot, Christ was a humanitarian, much different attitude. Smoke coming out my ears, better stop, to be continued. Peace be with you, redback. I was never a 2x2 but grew up under their thumb. I was condemned all my life by my father justifying his words and actions by their rules. I just turned 63 and I still get teary eyed thinking about those days. I've done a lot of healing, but some things can never be forgotten.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2020 18:56:10 GMT -5
But why Wally, Workers have no right to poke there noses into people's private lives. None of their business. A classic example is my Wife's Mother. She was professing, engaged to a non-professing man. He came to Gospel meetings, when they were tested, he stood up. He was told by the Worker " Sit down Bert, we know what you are about". The engagement was broken, and some time later that Worker matched her up with another man. He was professing, they got married and of course he was my Wife's Dad. The Mother used to tell us about. That Worker had no right to get involved, completely out of order. Don't try to justify it by saying he was guided by God, that will really make me wild. Stop Redback, you are in a bad mood at the moment. my guess is that they were trying to punish my mom for stopping professing...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2020 19:04:53 GMT -5
Yes Annan we do to continue to hurt even after 60 years. You can forgive, but you don't forget. And perhaps even more so as you reach the "Sunset" years regretting the past, and thinking it could have been better. Sure I have made many mistakes in my life, my Wife would attest to that. But they were situations because of my own choices, not choices made for me by others.
Annan you are still a "Spring Chicken", happy Easter.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2020 19:06:02 GMT -5
Wally just plain wrong, they do not have that right. it is called assault.
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Post by iam on Apr 9, 2020 19:18:13 GMT -5
If I could do it all over again I would just not do a traditional wedding with the fancy white dress and white shoes and stiff formal ceremony. It would be completely unconventional. I wouldn't look any different than any of the guests and absolutely everyone would be welcome. I'd really like a situation like red's with someone interrupting to buy a piano or something...heck, he would be invited to stay. The JP wouldn't be an elder, just an ordinary run of the mill friend if possible. Doubt if we would exchange rings. Have lost more rings than I can count and they're a pain to keep clean. No fancy decorations. No dress code. Come in your dirty work jeans if that's your style or come in the latest fashion. Whatever works. Potluck to keep the costs down. It would a BYO wedding...bring your own booze, bring your own music, bring your own chairs, bring your own food...no need to start your married life behind the eight ball any more than necessary. Hmmm....guess there wouldn't be any guests!😳
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Post by Get off of TMB on Apr 9, 2020 19:23:13 GMT -5
Iam, if your spouse is still living have a decade anniversary bash...20,30,40 or 50th.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2020 20:24:01 GMT -5
60, ?,?, ? , O repeated.
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Post by snow on Apr 9, 2020 20:31:36 GMT -5
But why Wally, Workers have no right to poke there noses into people's private lives. None of their business. A classic example is my Wife's Mother. She was professing, engaged to a non-professing man. He came to Gospel meetings, when they were tested, he stood up. He was told by the Worker " Sit down Bert, we know what you are about". The engagement was broken, and some time later that Worker matched her up with another man. He was professing, they got married and of course he was my Wife's Dad. The Mother used to tell us about. That Worker had no right to get involved, completely out of order. Don't try to justify it by saying he was guided by God, that will really make me wild. Stop Redback, you are in a bad mood at the moment. That is horrible. He was someone that was trying to do what he felt was right. What a mess they have made of many lives. I am so grateful that they upset me very young and I was done with them from that day forward. You do not tell a devout kid that is trying to make sense of the bible that they shouldn't question god's word or the workers and some other choice words I won't repeat.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2020 20:32:00 GMT -5
Wally just plain wrong, they do not have that right. it is called assault. i agree, it may have put the kobosh on the whole marriage. you should note that a worker(another sister) not directly involved apologized just a while ago for shunning the wedding...this was arranged a while back by snow finding a number for us to call and talk to her...thanks snow....
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2020 20:38:35 GMT -5
What was inflicted on us by the Workers can be classed as mental abuse. And they caused so much of it, and felt good about it, God's will.
Psychological violence, emotional abuse, mental abuse. Psychological abuse, often called emotional abuse, is a form of abuse, characterized by a person subjecting or exposing another person to behavior that may result in psychological trauma, including anxiety, chronic depression, or post-traumatic stress disorder.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 9, 2020 22:09:22 GMT -5
But why Wally, Workers have no right to poke there noses into people's private lives. None of their business. A classic example is my Wife's Mother. She was professing, engaged to a non-professing man. He came to Gospel meetings, when they were tested, he stood up. He was told by the Worker " Sit down Bert, we know what you are about". The engagement was broken, and some time later that Worker matched her up with another man. He was professing, they got married and of course he was my Wife's Dad. The Mother used to tell us about. That Worker had no right to get involved, completely out of order. Don't try to justify it by saying he was guided by God, that will really make me wild. Stop Redback, you are in a bad mood at the moment. my guess is that they were trying to punish my mom for stopping professing... Their last grasp at control over the situation.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 10, 2020 1:22:29 GMT -5
But why Wally, Workers have no right to poke there noses into people's private lives. None of their business. A classic example is my Wife's Mother. She was professing, engaged to a non-professing man. He came to Gospel meetings, when they were tested, he stood up. He was told by the Worker " Sit down Bert, we know what you are about". The engagement was broken, and some time later that Worker matched her up with another man. He was professing, they got married and of course he was my Wife's Dad. The Mother used to tell us about it. That Worker had no right to get involved, completely out of order. Don't try to justify it by saying he was guided by God, that will really make me wild. Stop Redback, you are in a bad mood at the moment. How utterly cruel, -humiliating someone like that right in front of a whole group of people!
The worker did not know anything about how the man might have really felt!
Even if the worker suspected that the man might only professing in order to marrying the woman, the worker could have talked to the man quietly afterwards but to say something like that to a person in public is inexcusable !
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Post by Pragmatic on Apr 10, 2020 1:35:32 GMT -5
And we had some stuff-ups in this country too, not a lot, but they did happen. I know of one situation where the end results of over interference by the workers were disastrous. And I don't use the word lightly. The ones responsible have gone on to meet their maker now with those decisions and outcomes on their shoulders.
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Post by fred on Apr 10, 2020 3:51:10 GMT -5
OR …. a person develops a hard protective shell, lacking in empathy, suspicious of others, self oriented with poor social skills (a form of PTSD I s'pose).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2020 4:51:43 GMT -5
Yes Fred, I think PTSD would definitely occur for CSA victims. For B&R ex's your mind is certainly affected but probably not to the extent as PTSD. For an ex that came in and then went out they would know what they were going back to. But we B&Rs we were launching into a big unknown with fear and trepidation. We were expecting to be run over by a bus or struck by lightning, bit scary. I fell off a roof and fractured 5 vertebrae, 6 months after we left . Months in Hospital and bed rest. And of course the 2x2's were quick to say that was my punishment. So at least I got it early, over and done with. But it took us 20 years to fully understand we had done the right thing and that we had been liberated.
And of course we didn't have sites like questioningfriends.com. We had to go it alone. We were just fortunate that we formed a friendship with a wonderful Christian couple who gave us the help we needed. Do think the hurt to some degree turns to anger as you get older. You regret those wasted years.
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Post by Annan on Apr 10, 2020 5:27:40 GMT -5
OR …. a person develops a hard protective shell, lacking in empathy, suspicious of others, self oriented with poor social skills (a form of PTSD I s'pose). I can sure attest to that. People don't realize that mental abuse can be worse than physical abuse.
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Post by ForeverFree on Apr 10, 2020 17:13:32 GMT -5
The workers don't get married, they don't licence themselves to marry others, and most have little to no counselling education, but they make it their business to poke their noses into everyone else's marriages. When people are engaged to be married, they are expected to talk to the workers about their intentions, and when they are having difficulties or are separating, the workers stick their noses in again. This is not counselling, this is control.
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Post by Get off of TMB on Apr 17, 2020 7:51:14 GMT -5
My mom couldn't take part because my dad didn't profess at the time. I feel like their marriage began on the wrong foot due to interference from in-laws and the workers.
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Post by Annan on Apr 17, 2020 16:05:31 GMT -5
My mom couldn't take part because my dad didn't profess at the time. I feel like their marriage began on the wrong foot due to interference from in-laws and the workers. Interesting. My dad took part. My mother was non-professing. Perhaps it had to do with what workers were in charge. We rarely saw the workers as there were only five professing folk in our area. At most, only three attended Sunday morning meetings.
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